4 ms·

What are the unusual signs to look for in that case? (Other than the obvious, which is "this sounds unrealistic")

ozim 4y ago
Basically there are no unusual signs. There is no trick that gives you information if person is lying that gives out on the spot. As much as pop-culture would like some eye movement or what not. Only thing that gives away lies is cross examination and asking multiple times about the same thing in a slightly different way. After asking 10 or 20 times about the same thing you might see that things don’t add up. It might be easier if you have 2 or more people making stuff up because if you separate them they will lie in a different way. Of course there are also people so bad at lying that will give out at first interrogation…
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- throwanem 4y ago
  Yes, I also enjoy police procedurals.
- latexr 4y ago
  > After asking 10 or 20 times about the same thing you might see that things don’t add up. After answering 10 or 20 times, even a person telling the truth might start to get confused and doubt their own recollection. Like semantic satiation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_satiation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_satiation
throwanem 4y ago
See what he does when you tell him you're going to sleep on it. If that makes it look like a great deal is going to disappear, or if he doesn't want to get lost when you tell him you've had enough of him for now, you are being taken for a ride and it's time to get off - what he doesn't want is you getting a chance to compare notes, whether with someone else or yourself. That said, the hard part is realizing it's time to say you're going to sleep on it in the first place. They don't call it a confidence trick for nothing, and faced with someone who's very good at it, it's easy to want to buy what he's selling because the guy's just so dang likeable.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
itronitron 4y ago
I used to work with someone that I think qualifies as either a pathological liar, con man, or deeply flawed. The most distinctive sign is that they tell blatant lies which serve to distract from and cover up the longer running and more subtle lies. Point being, if someone has been telling you something and then tells you something unrelated that you can prove to be false, then you need to exert considerable mental effort to revisit the initial thing they were telling you in order to determine whether it is true.
- unsupp0rted 4y ago
  This is interesting. Can you remember any examples of this kind of misdirection?
  - itronitron 4y ago
    I can't recall any specific details, but the general gist would be akin to someone telling you that they are working on a deal with XYZ for a multi-year program and they would have told you on Thursday but their flight was delayed in Houston due to a freak snow storm. I think this tactic works because gullible people are distracted by the idea of a freak snow storm in Houston, and more critically minded people focus their bullshit detector on the 'snow storm in Houston' story instead of the 'multi-year program' story.
DonsDiscountGas 4y ago
There isn't one. Body language is maybe slightly better than chance but generally unreliable. Exact word choice can be a sign; if you ask them a question do they actually answer it or do they deflect? But fundamentally if you really care you need some independent confirmation. In Abagnales the bar exam results and prison time should be verifiable, but besides that who knows. I wonder why the FBI wouldn't comment, seems like they should know whether he ever worked there or not.
kayodelycaon 4y ago
I don’t know if there are specific signs to look for. I’ve spend a lot of time studying people, their inputs and outputs. There is a lot of data in body language and inflection. People lie, evade, omit, or exaggerate all the time. For example, talking about things that make them uncomfortable. It’s one of those unconscious things that makes societies work. This isn’t unconscious for me. I see everything and analyze it logically. Detecting misdirection is fairly easy for me. When someone is actively lying, they are generally trying present specific body language and inflection. What happens is they miss something and I see the mismatch between the fake and real signals. It’s very similar to reading a polygraph. This isn’t a unique ability, most people have it and it manifests as a gut feeling. I’m neurodivergent and I’m able to give more than a gut feeling. I can usually point to what I’m seeing and explain it. All that said, I haven’t found any general “tells” for good lairs. It’s an art, not a science. It’s one reason polygraphs aren’t allow in court and I don’t use this ability to make snap judgements. :)
- throwanem 4y ago
  I understand what you're describing, but the point I'm making is that what makes a con artist a con artist is their ability to deceive this sort of analysis. If you can fool the thing I'm emulating, you can fool my emulation, too - in fact, the better my emulation, the better the attack works.
  - YourDadVPN 4y ago
    IMO it has more to do with people's desire to believe others are honest than any skill.
    - throwanem 4y ago
      Eh. Twenty years living in Baltimore has done a real number on my good-hearted naïveté, but that's not at all the same as saying I can no longer be played for a sucker.
- throwaway923663 4y ago
  Be careful with this. Some people, including me, can purposely (and falsely!) trigger your lie detector. If I believe that x=1 and if I want you to believe that I believe that x=0, I can say "x=1" while purposely displaying the tells you are looking for. People want to think that they are smart- that they are capable of reading people. It's much easier to just give them what they are looking for and move on than to leave them sitting there analyzing you for the next few minutes. They'll also think that you're a shit liar which is useful.
throwaway675309 4y ago
Unfortunately, I hate to pull the adage "it takes one to know one", but in this case I think it's apropos. I think people with sociopathic tendencies have a higher sensitivity for being able to detect textbook narcissism, reality distortion field, and the overall faint wafting of bullshit that conmen tend to exude. For the record I've always thought that Richard Feynman, while being an exceptional physicist, in his autobiographies it always feels like he is crafting narrative tales of how he wished he was.

ozim 4y ago

Basically there are no unusual signs. There is no trick that gives you information if person is lying that gives out on the spot. As much as pop-culture would like some eye movement or what not. Only thing that gives away lies is cross examination and asking multiple times about the same thing in a slightly different way. After asking 10 or 20 times about the same thing you might see that things don’t add up. It might be easier if you have 2 or more people making stuff up because if you separate them they will lie in a different way. Of course there are also people so bad at lying that will give out at first interrogation…

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
throwanem 4y ago
Yes, I also enjoy police procedurals.
latexr 4y ago
> After asking 10 or 20 times about the same thing you might see that things don’t add up. After answering 10 or 20 times, even a person telling the truth might start to get confused and doubt their own recollection. Like semantic satiation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_satiation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_satiation

throwanem 4y ago

See what he does when you tell him you're going to sleep on it. If that makes it look like a great deal is going to disappear, or if he doesn't want to get lost when you tell him you've had enough of him for now, you are being taken for a ride and it's time to get off - what he doesn't want is you getting a chance to compare notes, whether with someone else or yourself. That said, the hard part is realizing it's time to say you're going to sleep on it in the first place. They don't call it a confidence trick for nothing, and faced with someone who's very good at it, it's easy to want to buy what he's selling because the guy's just so dang likeable.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

itronitron 4y ago

I used to work with someone that I think qualifies as either a pathological liar, con man, or deeply flawed. The most distinctive sign is that they tell blatant lies which serve to distract from and cover up the longer running and more subtle lies. Point being, if someone has been telling you something and then tells you something unrelated that you can prove to be false, then you need to exert considerable mental effort to revisit the initial thing they were telling you in order to determine whether it is true.

unsupp0rted 4y ago
This is interesting. Can you remember any examples of this kind of misdirection?
- itronitron 4y ago
  I can't recall any specific details, but the general gist would be akin to someone telling you that they are working on a deal with XYZ for a multi-year program and they would have told you on Thursday but their flight was delayed in Houston due to a freak snow storm. I think this tactic works because gullible people are distracted by the idea of a freak snow storm in Houston, and more critically minded people focus their bullshit detector on the 'snow storm in Houston' story instead of the 'multi-year program' story.

DonsDiscountGas 4y ago

There isn't one. Body language is maybe slightly better than chance but generally unreliable. Exact word choice can be a sign; if you ask them a question do they actually answer it or do they deflect? But fundamentally if you really care you need some independent confirmation. In Abagnales the bar exam results and prison time should be verifiable, but besides that who knows. I wonder why the FBI wouldn't comment, seems like they should know whether he ever worked there or not.

kayodelycaon 4y ago

I don’t know if there are specific signs to look for. I’ve spend a lot of time studying people, their inputs and outputs. There is a lot of data in body language and inflection. People lie, evade, omit, or exaggerate all the time. For example, talking about things that make them uncomfortable. It’s one of those unconscious things that makes societies work. This isn’t unconscious for me. I see everything and analyze it logically. Detecting misdirection is fairly easy for me. When someone is actively lying, they are generally trying present specific body language and inflection. What happens is they miss something and I see the mismatch between the fake and real signals. It’s very similar to reading a polygraph. This isn’t a unique ability, most people have it and it manifests as a gut feeling. I’m neurodivergent and I’m able to give more than a gut feeling. I can usually point to what I’m seeing and explain it. All that said, I haven’t found any general “tells” for good lairs. It’s an art, not a science. It’s one reason polygraphs aren’t allow in court and I don’t use this ability to make snap judgements. :)

throwanem 4y ago
I understand what you're describing, but the point I'm making is that what makes a con artist a con artist is their ability to deceive this sort of analysis. If you can fool the thing I'm emulating, you can fool my emulation, too - in fact, the better my emulation, the better the attack works.
- YourDadVPN 4y ago
  IMO it has more to do with people's desire to believe others are honest than any skill.
  - throwanem 4y ago
    Eh. Twenty years living in Baltimore has done a real number on my good-hearted naïveté, but that's not at all the same as saying I can no longer be played for a sucker.
throwaway923663 4y ago
Be careful with this. Some people, including me, can purposely (and falsely!) trigger your lie detector. If I believe that x=1 and if I want you to believe that I believe that x=0, I can say "x=1" while purposely displaying the tells you are looking for. People want to think that they are smart- that they are capable of reading people. It's much easier to just give them what they are looking for and move on than to leave them sitting there analyzing you for the next few minutes. They'll also think that you're a shit liar which is useful.

throwaway675309 4y ago

Unfortunately, I hate to pull the adage "it takes one to know one", but in this case I think it's apropos. I think people with sociopathic tendencies have a higher sensitivity for being able to detect textbook narcissism, reality distortion field, and the overall faint wafting of bullshit that conmen tend to exude. For the record I've always thought that Richard Feynman, while being an exceptional physicist, in his autobiographies it always feels like he is crafting narrative tales of how he wished he was.