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Tungsten gold plated bar
- daneel_w 4y agoThe product description goes into detail of how to produce a fake gold bar and how real their product appears, and even emphasizes that it passes common tests for authenticity - chemical, weight, resonance and even x-ray. "Our gold-plated tungsten bar and tungsten alloy golden bar are only for souvenir and decoration purpose". But, of course...
- tyingq 4y agoUltrasound testing is probably a weakness. Edit: Sound passes through tungsten and gold at significantly different rates. Also, a "mixed media" type material would have extra "echos" that a homogenous thing would not.
- ajot 4y agoMaybe a Differential Thermal Analysis/Thermomechanical Analysia? I suspect gold and tungsten have different behaviours when heated, and that should tell both apart. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_thermal_analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_thermal_analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermomechanical_analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermomechanical_analysis
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- speakeron 4y agoThey have different magnetic susceptibilities. Gold is diamagnetic (repelled by magnetism); tungsten is paramagnetic (attracted). A strong magnetic field (neodymium magnets) and sensitive scales can tell them apart. I built a small rig a few years ago with parts from Aliexpress that worked for coins and for bars it's just scaling it up.
- ginko 4y agoLooks like tungsten has more than twice the electric resistivity of gold. Setting up a conductivity test shouldn't be too hard.
- daneel_w 4y agoBecause of electrical current preferring the path of least resistance (the gold instead of the tungsten), and because of the Skin effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect), I suspect such a test would be inaccurate. Especially given how thick the plating is in these particular bars.
- tyingq 4y agoA high current test might work, albeit with some undesirable side effects :)
- upofadown 4y agoNo skin effect for the direct current you could normally use to measure resistance. Accurately measuring the resistance of something as large as a metal bar can be tricky, but the gold would help as it does not oxidize on the surface.
- marcosdumay 4y agoThe skin effect happens exclusively on alternating currents, and you will need a fairly high frequency for it to become a problem on the size gold bars usually have. So, no, it's completely irrelevant here.
- kube-system 4y agoWho doesn’t run chemical and x-ray fluorescence tests on their knickknacks?
- adrian_b 4y agoTo identify a gold-plated object, those would have to be done in a destructive manner, i.e. after scratching the object. In many cases that would not be acceptable, so non-destructive tests may be used, e.g. based on density or X-ray absorption, but those are inconclusive, because tungsten also passes them. When scratching the object is allowed, then there is little need for a complex test, as the change of color would be enough to show a fake.
- daneel_w 4y agoProduct description tells us that the gold plating is 1/16" thick (~1.6 mm), and that such thick plating of gold is necessary to fool x-ray testing. I don't know how invasive scratch tests are but I imagine the carving to be shallower than 1.6 mm. Their product is clearly and thoroughly designed for counterfeiting.
- gymbeaux 4y agoIt is clearly designed for counterfeiting. If your concern and interests are truly limited to trade shows, I’m sure an ingot of steel painted gold would suffice.
- sandworm101 4y agoIf only they invested as much energy into spellchecking. I expect these come stamped "99.99 per cent gold".
- dvh 4y agoSame as "massage toy" on AliExpress
- varjag 4y ago"solvent trap"
- st_goliath 4y agoTungsten and gold have a comparable density. This company sells realistic looking, fake gold bars, that are supposed to pass typical tests as well. They are advertising them for e.g. as a prop for trade fares and such. Whoever would need a prop at a trade fare to pass a chemical test is anyone's guess... Yes, fake gold bars like this have obviously already been used for fraud, e.g. of the top of my head: in 2016 a then-18-year-old in Göttingen sold 259 fake bars to a local bank for a total of ~300k Euro until somebody realized it. [1](German) [1] https://www.haz.de/der-norden/wieso-hat-niemand-das-falschgold-erkannt-I4NMFJBFZONFMHEV2MTVGBO2XE.html https://www.haz.de/der-norden/wieso-hat-niemand-das-falschgo...
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- duxup 4y agoI didn’t realize there were banks that would buy gold bars from a random 18 year old.
- Someone 4y agoIn multiple transactions, and they called him and asked whether he had more of it. (“Das Geldinstitut soll ihn sogar zwischendurch angerufen und gefragt haben, ob er nicht noch mehr habe.”) That makes it look like and inside job to me. Alternatively, they must have paid significantly below market value.
- bluedino 4y agoYou can't fool an honest man.
- rationalist 4y agoYes you can. Sell him something fake at a real item's fair price.
- hackeraccount 4y ago
- walrus01 4y ago> Notice: Chinatungsten Online (Xiamen) Manu.&Sales Corp. is a very professional and serious company, specializing in manufacturing and selling tungsten related products for more than two decades. Our gold-plated tungsten bar and tungsten alloy golden bar are only for souvenir and decoration purpose. We can provide all kinds of tungsten alloy golden bar as your requirements. Here we declare: Please do not use our gold-plated tungsten alloy bar and tungsten alloy golden bar for any illegal purpose. Oh good, I'm sure nothing bad will happen since they wrote the disclaimer. How much does tungsten cost per kg in solid bulk form?
- tohnjitor 4y agoPeanuts compared to gold
- eloff 4y agoThe expensive part here is the 1/16 inch gold around the tungsten to fool x-ray scanners, they say that's enough to prevent x-rays from reaching the tungsten.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- D_Alex 4y agoAround US$ 40,000/tonne, $40/kg. Roughly a dollar an ounce, vs nearly $2000 for gold.
- golem14 4y agowith a thick gold plating ? They must have ways to get really cheap gold.
- in_the_bay 4y agoLong time reader but first time poster, had to share a story. A decade ago was riding a bus in China, and they had a PSA type ad playing on the screens (paraphrased) "making sure when you're buying gold you distinguish investment (real) gold bars and decorative (fake) gold bars". I thought "wow, how bad of a problem it must be to need such a PSA".
- IgorPartola 4y agoUnrelated but fascinating: I have recently seen a group of people who acquired a 50 lb tungsten cube. At first it seems like a weird thing to spend a few thousand dollars to have but then everyone who interacts with it is fascinated by it, even describing the experience as life changing. Example: https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTR7gry3o/ https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTR7gry3o/ and https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTR7gJ3VB/ https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTR7gJ3VB/
- wazoox 4y agoBetter not drop this on your foot...
- varispeed 4y agoI bought a tiny Tungsten cube. Even a tiny one feels unreal when you hold it in your hands.
- kube-system 4y agoI probably spent 5 minutes playing around with tungsten welding electrodes when I first bought some. There is something pleasing about the density.
- PragmaticPulp 4y ago> even describing the experience as life changing. Holding unusually dense materials for the first time is trippy in that it breaks your expectations of how things should feel. But describing it as life changing is just influencers being influencers. Exaggerating everything into hyperbole is part of the job when you’re angling for more views on TikTok.
- coffeebeqn 4y agoHaha exactly. I have a 1oz gold coin 9999 fine and me and the few people who held it had the same reaction. Whoa that’s heavier than I expected! Anyway as I was saying… Still waiting for someone to have a religious experience with it
- 4y ago
- detrites 4y ago> In theory, as the density of uranium is 19.1g/cm3, which is approximately 70% denser than lead, tungsten gold plated bar and tungsten alloy gold bar could be used as material of making fake gold products. Why does this article begin talking about Uranium and lead and then immediately non sequitur into tungsten? There must be something I'm missing?
- duxup 4y agoI was wondering the same. Is this part 2 of a series or something?
- MetalLord 4y agoHa. So I searched with the first phrases, and there are multiple results that are identical. But then there's this :"In theory, as its density is 19.1g/cm3, which is approximately 70% denser than lead, uranium could be used as material of making fake coin. However, it is weakly radioactive and not as dense as gold, so it does not appear to be a practical method. Then people have discovered that tungsten is environmental-friendly, durable and hardness, the most important is that its density of 19.25g/cm3 is just about the same density as gold (19.3g/cm3), which bears the similar specific gravity." So I guess someone copy pasted a mistake that someone did when shortening the original version. http://news.chinatungsten.com/en/tungsten-dart-news/46-tungsten-news-en/tungsten-information/27396-ti-1892.html http://news.chinatungsten.com/en/tungsten-dart-news/46-tungs...
- adrian_b 4y agoThat is an obvious typo. The intention must have been to write "uranium" everywhere in that paragraph, instead of "tungsten". Uranium and tungsten are the 2 metals which have about the same density as gold, so they can be used to fake gold. The only alternative would be to use alloys of rhenium, osmium, iridium or platinum (or also neptunium, but that is too expensive and too radioactive), but that would be pointless because such alloys would be too expensive. Nevertheless, when I have read the paragraph for the first time, I have not spotted the error, because it is also true that tungsten is weakly radioactive. The majority of the chemical elements heavier than the rare-earth elements, with a few exceptions (lead, gold, mercury and iridium) are weakly radioactive, but their radioactivity is several orders of magnitude lower than that of thorium and uranium.
- _nalply 4y agoIn some jurisdiction these are illegal. Switzerland has "Precious Metal Control", so I think I can't import fake gold bars without the risk they being confiscated. Not that I would want. I imported a tungsten cube, not as large as these in the Tiktok videos, but it is really a weird feeling to keep it in the hand. Tungsten is brittle and might break if you drop it and probably also the surface dropped on is in danger of getting a hole, so I feel a strange responsibility by just holding the cube. https://www.bazg.admin.ch/bazg/en/home/topics/precious-metal-control.html https://www.bazg.admin.ch/bazg/en/home/topics/precious-metal... Also the law: https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/50/345_357_401/en https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/50/345_357_401/en
- fallingfrog 4y agoI bought a cube of tungsten and a cube of magnesium to teach my kids about density, and I was really surprised how dangerous it feels just to hold the tungsten. I only let them hold it a few inches above a table because that thing would break your foot if you dropped it! If you hold the magnesium and drop it one inch you get a delicate little “clop” and if you drop the tungsten one inch you get a solid “BANG”.
- foobarian 4y agoI got one of those sets too and was wondering how the heck they manage to cast a tungsten cube given how high the melting point is. But it turns out the actual process uses sintering. (At least for this super inexpensive set we bought)
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- sorenjan 4y agoIs tungsten really brittle, or are you actually referring to tungsten carbide? I often see people mixing those up.
- 4y ago
- flybrand 4y ago“ Shanghai Gold Exchange denies report on 'doped' gold bars from Australia” https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/shanghai-gold-exchange-denies-report-on-doped-gold-bars-from-australia https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/shanghai-gold-exchange-denie...
- jacknews 4y ago"only for souvenir and decoration purpose. ... Please do not use our gold-plated tungsten alloy bar and tungsten alloy golden bar for any illegal purpose." ya, sure, that's why you make them so they pass chemical tests, x-rays, etc, etc.
- coffeebeqn 4y agoBars are unpopular among gold bullion.. hoarders for this exact reason. People generally only buy factory sealed and assayed bars but most prefer government minted coins. They are very intricate and quite thin so not really possible to fake. Plus they are usually technically legal currency so counterfeiting them is very serious. US gold eagle, Canadian Maple, Australian Kangaroo, Austrian Philharmonic. I’d recommend anyone with a little interest in physical assets to grab one as they’re beautiful pieces and tend to hold their value over centuries
- lazide 4y agoAccurate! There are starting to be tungsten cored fake coins good enough to fool most, so validation is still required. [https://m.alibaba.com/product/60579932545/Gold-Plated-Tungsten-Coins.html?spm=a2706.7843667.0.0.485c2b4dI8rymJ https://m.alibaba.com/product/60579932545/Gold-Plated-Tungst...]
- gumby 4y agoFascinating! I’ve never seen the point of owning gold and have wondered why people would buy gold coins (or why they sell simply for the price of the underlying content) rather than just buying plain old bars of whatever size. I still don’t understand why people buy gold but at least I now see why it’s sensible to buy coins. My mum married draped in gold jewelry which was too soft to be worn again. I’ve seen the photos and saw the gold as a kid in their safe deposit box, where it’s sat for 60 years. Given that she moved to the west, what was the point?
- nine_k 4y agoGold is often (though not all the time) anti-cyclical: as stock market goes down, gold goes up. It can be used as a hedge.
- justinzollars 4y agoThe reason to own gold is that there is no counter party risk. It can also help transfer wealth between incompatible systems. If there is a currency reset, lost war, or you end up a refugee - Gold is a great option.
- unwind 4y agoIt's always fun to read about tungsten, I guess with the high density and weird texture the literal meaning in Swedish makes sense: tung=heavy and sten=rock so heavy rock. :) Edit: autocorrect.
- iamgopal 4y agoI have lots of tungsten carbide scrap. Apart from recycling, what are other good idea ?
- asddubs 4y agoyou can grind them into scrapers and other tools
- throw0101b 4y agoPersonally I only deal with gold-pressed latinum: * https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Latinum https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Latinum * https://sto.fandom.com/wiki/Gold-Pressed_Latinum https://sto.fandom.com/wiki/Gold-Pressed_Latinum
- gymbeaux 4y agoWho mourns for morn?
- _ro12 4y ago[dead]
- ChancyChance 4y agoI would assume real gold bars of this size would have some kind of notion of a certificate of provenance and/or authenticity stamped into it or associated with it, e.g. specific symbols or ID numbers that would fall under international forgery laws if duplicated. Because one and 10 troy oz bars come with loads of identification. Of course those can be faked too, but who would be dumb enough to trade in dubious unmarked "gold bars"? The only answers I can come up with sound like James Bond plots.
- dragonwriter 4y agoIsn’t it rather the point of precious metals as a class is that their value does not depend on things like provenance.
- icegreentea2 4y agoMaybe the hypothetical "market price" of gold works that way, but in practical selling and buying provenance can be used as a shortcut for independently determining purity. If you want your buyer to just accept your "gold" without testing, if you have gold without provenance, you're just going to have to accept a discount on your sale. Consider the difference between "merely" 99% and 99.99% gold. On a 1oz coin, that's like ~200USD of value right there.
- throwaway22032 4y agoYou're off by a factor of ten, 1oz of gold is ~2K so it's a 20 USD difference.
- swimfar 4y agoGiven that companies in China are blatantly selling forgeries of US gold coins[1], it appears that they aren't too worried about the consequences. Though maybe it would start to attract more attention if they began counterfeiting larger value items such as these gold bars. [1] https://m.alibaba.com/product/60579932545/Gold-Plated-Tungsten-Coins.html?spm=a2706.7843667.0.0.485c2b4dI8rymJ https://m.alibaba.com/product/60579932545/Gold-Plated-Tungst...
- anfractuosity 4y agohttps://vm-vision.eu/nl/toepassingen/edelemetalen1/ https://vm-vision.eu/nl/toepassingen/edelemetalen1/ sounds interesting to detect these. "X-ray fluorescence is a very reliable way to confirm the purity, but XRF is a surface technique. Some precious metals processors have even resorted to drilling or cutting bars to verify integrity. However, a simple ultrasonic test can quickly and reliably locate inserts with no need to drill, cut, or otherwise alter the bar."
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- MagicMoonlight 4y agoI really want a tungsten gold plated bar now. I wonder how much they cost. I doubt it’s actually cheap enough for me to buy it just for fun but my god would it be satisfying.
- coolspot 4y ago$250-500 per 1 oz bar: https://m.alibaba.com/product/60724849535/1oz-tungsten-filled-gold-bars-24k.html https://m.alibaba.com/product/60724849535/1oz-tungsten-fille...
- _a_a_a_ 4y agoIllegal? OK, I'll cope, but for sheer cheesy bad taste...
- imtringued 4y agoThis reminds me of those YouTube videos where people melt their copper scrap into ingots and then when they go to the scrapyard they are reminded that the scrapyard guy will have to cut their beautiful bars to confirm that they are actually made out of copper or they simply refuse them to start with.
- nlh 4y agoOo this is relevant to my world (professional coin & currency dealer here)! A scourge, but relevant. To address a few different things people have said in sibling comments: * Theft/security at coin shows is actually a real issue. I know the instinct may be to laugh when they say "Tungsten gold plated bar is the best choice if you are a gold dealer and attend some trade fair or put your gold products in the showcase..." but that almost kinnnnnnnda makes sense. But only kinda. The security issue these days isn't so much about the physical bars being stolen as it is being followed AFTER the show and someone just does an old fashioned smash-and-grab through a window of your car. The advice lately is DO NOT STOP after leaving a show, make sure you're not being followed, etc. Insane but reality. * Counterfeiting is, unfortunately, also a real issue, and companies like this don't help. The gold standard (ha ha ha) for detection right now is an XRF gun, but the problem is twofold: One, those guns cost $15,000-$20,000, and two, people trust them, so when a good fake can pass an XRF test, the chances are it's going to defraud someone. * Someone else asked about why people want gold/silver bars/coins. The die-hards (who are remarkably similar to crypto die-hards) will say some familiar stuff -- fiat is worthless, when it all goes to hell you'll still have "real money", they don't trust banks, etc. The more common thinking is just asset diversification/investment. You may not understand a T-Bill or Muni Bond or GOOG cashflow statement, but it's pretty easy to make a bet on gold/silver and buy a few actual pieces of gold silver. The coins come in several flavors -- there's the modern stuff (American Eagles/Buffalos, Canadian Maple Leafs, South African Kruggerands, etc.) which is valued because, ironically, it's backed and produced by a government so considered to be more real/trustworthy. There's also what's known as "constitutional" silver (actual US coins from pre-1964, which are made of 90% silver) and "pre-33" gold, which are actual US coins from pre-1933, which are made of 90% gold. For similar reasons, they are valued because they WERE money, with known purity etc. Fun stuff -- feel free to ping me if anyone wants more info!
- cowthulhu 4y agoThat is super interesting. I assume it’s easy to spoof the density? And this is probably a stupid question, but do people ever try to alloy the gold to mix in an impurity in a subtle way?