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Amazon doubling down on return to office

126 points by ecliptik 4y ago

uejfiweun 4y ago
This is just a disguised ad for some paid Medium blog, FYI.
vuln 4y ago
Frick, I hate to see what happens in a few months when Amazon _Triple downs_ on RTO. I really wish journalist would understand that we don't give a fuck what Amazon is doing. The only reason this is an "article" is because it's Amazon. Cool, no one gives a shit except maybe Amazon employees and if they haven't seen the writing on the wall I doubt this article will shine light on what they're missing.
SamuelAdams 4y ago
This feels like a way to layoff people without any of the headaches of organizing a layoff. Employees will quit voluntarily and your workforce may shrink by 5-10%.
- GoToRO 4y ago
  And no severance.
- larrymyers 4y ago
  Employees who were hired remote and have no office within a reasonable distance should absolutely force Amazon to terminate their employment so they can collect unemployment. Amazon is the one forcing the significant change in employment terms, so employees shouldn't do them a favor and resign if they don't have another job lined up yet.
  - swader999 4y ago
    Yes! It's called constructive dismissal in Canada, not sure about other jurisdictions.
    - ghaff 4y ago
      But probably requires paying lawyers etc. which may or may not be worth it.
      - throw_nbvc1234 4y ago
        If you have a job lined up no. If you're going to be job hunting wouldn't you get backdated unemployment even if you had the savings to live without it?
        ghaff 4y ago
        For context, depending on the state, unemployment can be a few hundred dollars per week. So you might cover the costs of your lawyer. No idea of the answer to your question as there's also an assumption you're looking for employment while unemployed and may be ongoing documentation requirements.
        JohnFen 4y ago
        Depending on your state, hiring a lawyer might not be necessary. In at least one state, the employment division takes violations of employment contracts very seriously and will go to court on your behalf if the violation is egregious enough. And in all states, you don't have to have a lawyer to bring a case. These are civil cases, and you can represent yourself. You're trading time for money in that situation, of course, and there's a learning curve you need to mount.
  - notyourwork 4y ago
    Employees who were hired remote can remain remote. Not all employees hired during covid were classified as such. Employees were also able to request exemption from the return to office policy.
    - macinjosh 4y ago
      I am curious where this is coming from because TFA implies that this policy applies to people who were hired remote. What is the actual distinction between those who have to RTO and those that do not? > Many employees accepted offers from Amazon with the understanding that their position will be full remote.
      - notyourwork 4y ago
        Some employees hired during covid were explicitly classified as virtual. Some were given a location and said you don't have to come to office but if you did have an office it would be in <city>. It's made very clear when hired so anyone saying otherwise missed a subtle detail.
        Sebb767 4y ago
        > It's made very clear when hired so anyone saying otherwise missed a subtle detail. That's an oxymoron, either it was made very clear or it was subtle and therefore not very clear at all.
        dcow 4y ago
        Not really. People also willingly overlook things hoping for a different reality. It’s a pretty human thing to do.
        Sebb767 4y ago
        Yes, but that's not the point I was arguing with. Either it was made very clear (and people choose to overlook it despite it being hard to miss) or it was a subtle detail (that people easily missed, quite possibly unintentionally). Both can't be true at the same time.
  - funstuff007 4y ago
    So tell me Johnny, why did you leave Amazon? My boss told me to go back to office, and I said no f'ing way--fire me! And they did. Probably not a great conversation to have on your next interview.
    - midoridensha 4y ago
      It seems fine if the new job you're interviewing for is remote-only. It's also fine if you're interviewing for a company local to you, there's no Amazon location anywhere nearby, and you were fired for refusing to relocate.
- Waterluvian 4y ago
  Doesn’t this effectively target all the best employees? Those that can walk away like that. This would reinforce my suspicion that big tech companies don’t really believe in the concept of engineer quality. They just hire quantity and convince them all that they’re exceptional.
  - thwayunion 4y ago
    > Doesn’t this effectively target all the best employees? No, because a huge percentage of the best employees are on H1Bs and have no choice but to stay. Big tech might have some issues when the carpet gets pulled on H1B rules XOR H1B allocations during the next administration. I'm like 99.9% sure that the status quo will end one way or the other (I'm hoping it'll be rules but scared that it'll be allocations).
    - Waterluvian 4y ago
      Oh right. Good point about the H1B capture.
    - klipklop 4y ago
      They will just outsource and deal with the time zone issues. For now they have the best of both worlds.
      - thwayunion 4y ago
        Data and IP sovereignty makes this increasingly difficult, and in many cases the internationality of the talent simply doesn't buy you any savings (eg any model beyond 100b params or so, anything where you need 9 9s, etc.). Source: been in c-level convos on exactly this topic. Agree with work-a-day code slinging, but that profession is a few years away from becoming 99.9% product management anyways. In tech, if a job is in danger of outsourcing, it's either data annotation work or is probably cheaper and easier to automate sans product design/management. Also: if we're talking actual top-tier talent -- mostly O1, not H1B, btw -- you can get very top tier talent for not much more in rural Colorado/Missouri compared to Delhi / Hong Kong / São Paulo. And without the risk of a state actor saying "fuck you this belongs to me now".
- bastard_op 4y ago
  Exactly what I was thinking, it's a win/win for Amazon. Attrition through policy the half-steppers, with automatic self-culling enabled.
- Consultant32452 4y ago
  An awful person on a contract I'm on was ordered back into the office. She quit. I'm confident that was the goal.
- toss1 4y ago
  Yes, it is a great strategy for sociopathic managers What they don't consider, or don't care about, is that this will select-out the best people, the ones who have the most readily available options, and it will select-in those who are least capable. This means that the managers really don't GAF about any kind of quality, or their real strategy is merely to throw warm bodies at their problems and hope they can wrangle some kind of productivity from them, evidently while soothing their own egos while "managing by walking around" and hovering over everyone's cubicles trying to enforce butts-in-seats indicia of work that actually have near-zero correlation with actual productivity.
- patmcc 4y ago
  If this happens to anyone - look up the laws of your jurisdiction in regards to "constructive dismissal". Being required to go back into an office after being fully remote for 3 years may well qualify, and then (as far as employment law is concerned) you were fired, you didn't quit.
hotpotamus 4y ago
If I was a sadistic type and in a position of authority at Amazon, I'd just say that WFH is entirely optional, but may be a factor in employee evaluations. Perhaps I'd set up some board that displays how many days each person is in the office vs home.
- vuln 4y ago
  What do you think they do with _unlimited_ Paid Time Off usage numbers? Boss at review time "well Bob only took 5 days off last year, you're at 15... Do you think maybe you could be a better team player? It's not fair that you're taking triple of what your team members are. Think of them and the stress they have when you're on PTO." Excerpt from one of my actual reviews. I quit a week later. Edit: I joined the second week of January 2 weeks after unlimited PTO went into affect. Before unlimited <5 years got 15 days PTO.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
    Was Bob 22 years old, single, and addicted to Adderall?
  - robryan 4y ago
    Such a silly policy, if they have a number in mind for acceptable annual leave just make that the policy.
    - vuln 4y ago
      Well how are you going to attract new young talent you must ply them with free stuff and gimmicks like unlimited PTO. Hell, mobile network providers have been using the word _unlimited_ with a cap without any reprocussions for what decades? I think companies that offer _unlimited_ PTO should set a minimal baseline of 10-15 days per year.
  - rossdavidh 4y ago
    You know, some of the other staff are wearing 20 pieces of flair...
buildbot 4y ago
How is this not constructive dismissal? If you signed a contract stating that you work remotely, does Amazon have the power to unilaterally change that?
- jldugger 4y ago
  I suspect it is, but done in such a way as to avoid some of the larger lawsuits from layoffs. Sure you can enjoy the peanuts unemployment gives you by claiming it, but I imagine its somewhat harder to file a discrimination claim? edit: and i doubt amazon made any promises about remote work
- ralph84 4y ago
  In at-will employment the terms of employment can be changed at any time. As long as the terms weren’t changed because of membership in a protected class it’s completely legal in the US.
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    Unless you have a contract. Contracts cannot be unilaterally changed.
    - eftychis 4y ago
      Employers unfortunately think otherwise. From experience when the time comes, most people cower and accept the new status quo. Again from unfortunate experience. Feel free to take it as an anecdotal point. Employers do it because it works and employees don't have the knowledge or means to protect their rights.
      - JohnFen 4y ago
        Well, it doesn't matter what the employers think. It matters what the court thinks. Of course, it takes time and effort to sue and I imagine a lot of people would just let it go.
  - zamalek 4y ago
Apocryphon 4y ago
Is that why the Twitch CEO is leaving
Ancalagon 4y ago
Would love to see an engineering union form from this
- whydoyoucare 4y ago
  Heck no, as long as human minds are corruptible, unions will decimate the group they are designed to protect.
  - CydeWeys 4y ago
    Human minds being corruptible, applied to management and shareholders, does a good job of explaining why unions are necessary in the first place.
  - dtjb 4y ago
    My understanding of US history is that almost all meaningful worker protections were fought for and seized by labor unions. Things like the 40 hour work week, paid leave, overtime pay, etc.
    - rattlesnakedave 4y ago
      What have they produced since 1940?
      - lazyasciiart 4y ago
        A bizarrely rightwing investment in the anti-Communist witch hunts, and a pretty enormous structural backlash in the form of the Taft-Hartley act?
  - surgical_fire 4y ago
    [flagged]
- alfalfasprout 4y ago
  People are so anti-union but don't realize how much they could help with other problems: 1. Companies rampantly abusing the H1B system 2. Wild discrepancy in the skills and quality of software engineers 3. "top tier" companies acting as a cabal to reduce comp + benefits of employees. 4. Companies abusing the use of "contractors" to get around full time hiring. I see so many people including on HN decrying the pay engineers get. Wait till you see how much money companies make off your labor.
saos 4y ago
Amazon and big corp will win this. Probably best for these engineers to move on and find a company that will allow 100% working. Good luck > The same engineers upset about the RTO policy here to stay are also talking about canceling their Prime memberships or boycotting Amazon. ohhh scary > At the same time, looking at the market, it’s hard not to ask the question: if people want to leave, where will they leave to? Meta just announced more cuts - and closing all 5,000 open positions. Dozens of tech companies have put similar, 3-day return to office policies in place starting from December, I've been saying this for ages. Big corp were always going to go BACK to hybrid working which was in place pre-pandemic. BAU
- kps 4y ago
  > Probably best for these engineers to move on and find a company that will allow 100% working. I felt the same way about open-office distractions.
  - morelisp 4y ago
    "Programmers already hated the changes to their working environment made in the past 15 years" but they nonetheless happened; it seems to me strong evidence they'll also return to office.
mabbo 4y ago
Every day at 5pm, I do three things: 1. I turn off my work computer and exit my home office. 2. I get a big hug from my 1 year old daughter. 3. I remind myself how glad I am that I left Amazon, because it was obvious in 2021 that they'd do this eventually. Tech survey 2021 showed that most devs preferred remote at least half of the time or more. The S-team had those numbers. Then they sent out an email saying "we know you all can't wait to be back in the office!". They simply don't care what you think or want.
- beezlebroxxxxxx 4y ago
  All employee surveys are corporate theater. They create the illusion that employees and owners/management are equal parties in a discussion. They aren't. Corporations are oligarchical in nature. The philosopher Elizabeth Anderson calls them "private governments" with powers over our lives that would make most political theorists squeal.
  - raspberry1337 4y ago
    [flagged]
  - cjrp 4y ago
    I think the surveys play a role. They help the employer see whether the new policy will be easy or slightly tricky to implement. Either way it’s happening.
    - nikau 4y ago
      Its providing the illusion of choice. Like on an airplane when they ask 'chicken or beef' - you ask for beef, "sorry we only have chicken left"
  - inglor_cz 4y ago
    People in tech are among the most advantaged when it comes to salary/job conditions negotiation, and the possibility of saving up a reasonable reserve cash fund "just in case". For the opposite, see shop clerks, phone marketers etc. Few people want to do such jobs unless in dire straits; there was a famous article from the Resident Contrarian about it.
shmatt 4y ago
I don't understand G.O's obsession with Amazon RTO and not the rest of the industry. No, it's not "unprecedented pushback", Apple employees fought much harder, executives publicly quit, and employees went to the media with names publicly exposed. And yet they went back to the office (those who didn't quit, which might of been intentional on Apples part) Now back to G.O, I really really don't understand the hype surrounding him in the industry as if his words mean anything. He was a line manager at Uber 2017-2020. And left the industry. He writes as if he had held multiple SVP positions analyzing how and why engineering orgs do things. He writes about Uber once in a while, in such a generic way, as if in a 30,000 person org all teams have the same ways of working His writing in clueless, its 90% "I have been told", "people in the company are telling me", its basically a mix of DJT's ex-twitter feed and Blind. His latest "trick" was scanning LinkedIn to show that in the past 45 days Google's engineering org grew by 6%. I really doubt that happened, Googlers I know really doubt that happened, and using LinkedIn which doesn't verify employment is a very poor way of analyzing data
- lisasays 4y ago
  Yeah, it's very strange when people think of LinkedIn "data" as some finely calibrate scientific instrument. At best, it produces "anecdata at scale" (biased heavily towards people who or of a certain personality type that enjoys spending time on LinkedIn).
  - Sebb767 4y ago
    In fact, this data could actually indicate the opposite effect as well, with the LinkedIn org growing because people update their profile to start looking for jobs.
- dnissley 4y ago
  He's a journalist now, therefore he does what journalists have always been incentivized to do: write clickbait articles. Amazon RTO is a hot topic, simple as that.
- playingalong 4y ago
  He claims (or at least implies) to have a lot of contacts in the industry, especially among the cool known brands. If true, relatively few people can claim so.
black_13 4y ago
[dead]
jlongr 4y ago
"We believe that employees are much more likely to understand our unique culture and become part of it if they are surrounded by other Amazonians in person" This statement strikes me as dishonest. 'Culture', a nebulous and immeasurable term, is clearly being used to lasso people back to the office for an ulterior motive. Are there truly no reasons for RTO more firm and factual than absorbing culture, whatever that may be? The author asserts that Amazon could be trying to increase attrition, but is this really the reason? Maintaining office buildings and bringing people into them just so that some of them might quit?
- thwayunion 4y ago
  > "We believe that employees are much more likely to understand our unique culture and become part of it if they are surrounded by other Amazonians in person" Sounds like a cult.
- adingus 4y ago
  If the culture is so special then why do people not want to go back?
toomuchtodo 4y ago
I certainly hope those 30k Amazon workers maybe consider unionizing now, after realizing that executive leadership doesn't give one single care what they think. Organizing efforts are federally protected, and if they're going to get drummed out anyway, not much to lose. You won't have a seat at the table until you drag it there yourself and bolt it to the ground. Don't want to be treated like a disposable cog who can have their work arrangement changed at any time? Organize. If people tell you "just go get another job", ignore them. You don't want another job, you want agency and protections at your job. I imagine the current administration would be friendly to backstopping those efforts via the NLRB [1]. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=nlrb+amazon https://www.google.com/search?q=nlrb+amazon
brailsafe 4y ago
If for whatever reason you'd like to backup a slack conversation and you don't have export privileges, check out SlackDump. Used it yesterday to back up a private conversation. Though it probably wouldn't be useful in a vast majority of cases, your employer would probably prefer you didn't have an external record of any messages exchanged. Also imap-backup for when you get an alert in the middle of the night that you're suddenly having email syncing issues.
angarg12 4y ago
> I consistently pay attention to what Amazon does, as the company has read the market well for the past decades: both from a business perspective, and also from how to attract and retain software engineers - doing this in a frugal way. I've been in Amazon for several years, and I couldn't disagree more. Amazon has always been terrible at attracting, and particularly retaining talent. It's compensation philosophy is bad at rewarding tenured employees and high performers. The saving grace was that stock grew insanely during the bull market of the 2010s. Many people made lots of money and it acted as very effective golden handcuffs. However the situation is very different now. Stock has been flat for over 2 years, so the singular most important reason to stay is gone. It's going to be interesting to see how the market evolves during the next 1-1.5 years. I definitely agree it's interesting to pay attention to what Amazon does. Whether it's to copy or avoid it, remains to be seen.
- brutusurp 4y ago
  > Amazon has always been terrible at attracting, and particularly retaining talent. Could not agree more. It appears the culture is quite toxic, in addition to the lower-tier pay. Not to many people ever leave Amazon saying "wow, most fun ever" like they do at places like Google. Even when layoffs were happening, ex-Googlers were consistently expressing sorrow over losing a team they really enjoying working with. Not so for Amazon. Instead it's chants of "never again."
julienreszka 4y ago
This is an easy way to lose your best workers
- revlolz 4y ago
  I've seen a handful of seniors already quit and some of the best L8's/directors openly distressed with no lever to improve morale. Many teams are now down to the idea guys. Amazing leadership from the top. Layoffs, RTO, stock down over 40% YoY, and no comp increases even with inflation. They must be playing limbo because' how low can they go?'
  - Seattle3503 4y ago
    > Many teams are now down to the idea guys. What do you mean by this?
    - nikau 4y ago
      people who talk but dont do
      - SauciestGNU 4y ago
        Man that's a great description, my greatest professional fear is becoming a useless ideas guy.
        Izkata 4y ago
        Didn't it start as something they described themselves as, in an attempt to imply the doers don't have any good ideas themselves and needed an "idea guy" to come up with something?
        revlolz 4y ago
        Probably, but the above poster's paraphrasing "people who talk but dont do" is what was in my mind.
rybosworld 4y ago
Amazon, a company famous for poor treatment of employees, is treating employees poorly once again. Shocked pickachu face
nfRfqX5n 4y ago
imagine you're the one person on your team in a different location, driving to the office just to sit by yourself with non dedicated seating with no monitors/keyboard/mouse
jdlyga 4y ago
Here are some badly thought out reasons to return to the office: 1). Collaboration: Most of the time this makes no sense since teams are much more geographically distributed nowadays since Covid. Are you actually talking to people in person, or are you on the same zoom meetings all day? 2). Team Management: There are better ways to monitor if work is getting done than by checking if butts are in seats, and that doesn't include checking if your Teams bubble is green either. 3). Productivity: Some people are more focused and productive at work, and some people are more focused and productive at home. It depends on the way your brain works and what your office is like. This is not to say returning to the office is a bad idea, but we need to be honest and realistic. There are actually good reasons for being in the office. 1). To have lunch with people in your building, or meet up with coworkers for happy hour after work. 2). If your office building is a nice place to work, has perks, and you enjoy being there. Are you able to focus and get work done, or is it busy and stressful? Does your office have events that are _actually_ fun, not just pretend work fun? 3). To have a separate place to compartmentalize work stress so you don't take it home with you. It's much easier to not think about work when you're working in a different place than you're sleeping. Bonus: An internet connection with better upload speeds. This depends on your ISP, but typically in the U.S. unless you have FiOS it's very slow.
dbg31415 4y ago
Feels relevant. Amazon just doesn’t want their real estate values to decline even more due to everyone working remote now. https://therealdeal.com/new-york/2022/02/04/amazon-doubled-its-real-estate-holdings-in-2021/ https://therealdeal.com/new-york/2022/02/04/amazon-doubled-i...
- thwayunion 4y ago
  Not an apologist, but warehouse and data center real estate seems inversely correlated with RTO? The article isn't about their office space...
animitronix 4y ago
Awesome, their engineers can come work for me :D

126 points by ecliptik 4y ago

This is just a disguised ad for some paid Medium blog, FYI.

vuln 4y ago

Frick, I hate to see what happens in a few months when Amazon _Triple downs_ on RTO. I really wish journalist would understand that we don't give a fuck what Amazon is doing. The only reason this is an "article" is because it's Amazon. Cool, no one gives a shit except maybe Amazon employees and if they haven't seen the writing on the wall I doubt this article will shine light on what they're missing.

SamuelAdams 4y ago

This feels like a way to layoff people without any of the headaches of organizing a layoff. Employees will quit voluntarily and your workforce may shrink by 5-10%.

GoToRO 4y ago
And no severance.
larrymyers 4y ago
Employees who were hired remote and have no office within a reasonable distance should absolutely force Amazon to terminate their employment so they can collect unemployment. Amazon is the one forcing the significant change in employment terms, so employees shouldn't do them a favor and resign if they don't have another job lined up yet.
- swader999 4y ago
  Yes! It's called constructive dismissal in Canada, not sure about other jurisdictions.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    But probably requires paying lawyers etc. which may or may not be worth it.
    - throw_nbvc1234 4y ago
      If you have a job lined up no. If you're going to be job hunting wouldn't you get backdated unemployment even if you had the savings to live without it?
      - ghaff 4y ago
        For context, depending on the state, unemployment can be a few hundred dollars per week. So you might cover the costs of your lawyer. No idea of the answer to your question as there's also an assumption you're looking for employment while unemployed and may be ongoing documentation requirements.
        JohnFen 4y ago
        Depending on your state, hiring a lawyer might not be necessary. In at least one state, the employment division takes violations of employment contracts very seriously and will go to court on your behalf if the violation is egregious enough. And in all states, you don't have to have a lawyer to bring a case. These are civil cases, and you can represent yourself. You're trading time for money in that situation, of course, and there's a learning curve you need to mount.
- notyourwork 4y ago
  Employees who were hired remote can remain remote. Not all employees hired during covid were classified as such. Employees were also able to request exemption from the return to office policy.
  - macinjosh 4y ago
    I am curious where this is coming from because TFA implies that this policy applies to people who were hired remote. What is the actual distinction between those who have to RTO and those that do not? > Many employees accepted offers from Amazon with the understanding that their position will be full remote.
    - notyourwork 4y ago
      Some employees hired during covid were explicitly classified as virtual. Some were given a location and said you don't have to come to office but if you did have an office it would be in <city>. It's made very clear when hired so anyone saying otherwise missed a subtle detail.
      - Sebb767 4y ago
        > It's made very clear when hired so anyone saying otherwise missed a subtle detail. That's an oxymoron, either it was made very clear or it was subtle and therefore not very clear at all.
        dcow 4y ago
        Not really. People also willingly overlook things hoping for a different reality. It’s a pretty human thing to do.
        Sebb767 4y ago
        Yes, but that's not the point I was arguing with. Either it was made very clear (and people choose to overlook it despite it being hard to miss) or it was a subtle detail (that people easily missed, quite possibly unintentionally). Both can't be true at the same time.
- funstuff007 4y ago
  So tell me Johnny, why did you leave Amazon? My boss told me to go back to office, and I said no f'ing way--fire me! And they did. Probably not a great conversation to have on your next interview.
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    It seems fine if the new job you're interviewing for is remote-only. It's also fine if you're interviewing for a company local to you, there's no Amazon location anywhere nearby, and you were fired for refusing to relocate.
Waterluvian 4y ago
Doesn’t this effectively target all the best employees? Those that can walk away like that. This would reinforce my suspicion that big tech companies don’t really believe in the concept of engineer quality. They just hire quantity and convince them all that they’re exceptional.
- thwayunion 4y ago
  > Doesn’t this effectively target all the best employees? No, because a huge percentage of the best employees are on H1Bs and have no choice but to stay. Big tech might have some issues when the carpet gets pulled on H1B rules XOR H1B allocations during the next administration. I'm like 99.9% sure that the status quo will end one way or the other (I'm hoping it'll be rules but scared that it'll be allocations).
  - Waterluvian 4y ago
    Oh right. Good point about the H1B capture.
  - klipklop 4y ago
    They will just outsource and deal with the time zone issues. For now they have the best of both worlds.
    - thwayunion 4y ago
      Data and IP sovereignty makes this increasingly difficult, and in many cases the internationality of the talent simply doesn't buy you any savings (eg any model beyond 100b params or so, anything where you need 9 9s, etc.). Source: been in c-level convos on exactly this topic. Agree with work-a-day code slinging, but that profession is a few years away from becoming 99.9% product management anyways. In tech, if a job is in danger of outsourcing, it's either data annotation work or is probably cheaper and easier to automate sans product design/management. Also: if we're talking actual top-tier talent -- mostly O1, not H1B, btw -- you can get very top tier talent for not much more in rural Colorado/Missouri compared to Delhi / Hong Kong / São Paulo. And without the risk of a state actor saying "fuck you this belongs to me now".
bastard_op 4y ago
Exactly what I was thinking, it's a win/win for Amazon. Attrition through policy the half-steppers, with automatic self-culling enabled.
Consultant32452 4y ago
An awful person on a contract I'm on was ordered back into the office. She quit. I'm confident that was the goal.
toss1 4y ago
Yes, it is a great strategy for sociopathic managers What they don't consider, or don't care about, is that this will select-out the best people, the ones who have the most readily available options, and it will select-in those who are least capable. This means that the managers really don't GAF about any kind of quality, or their real strategy is merely to throw warm bodies at their problems and hope they can wrangle some kind of productivity from them, evidently while soothing their own egos while "managing by walking around" and hovering over everyone's cubicles trying to enforce butts-in-seats indicia of work that actually have near-zero correlation with actual productivity.
patmcc 4y ago
If this happens to anyone - look up the laws of your jurisdiction in regards to "constructive dismissal". Being required to go back into an office after being fully remote for 3 years may well qualify, and then (as far as employment law is concerned) you were fired, you didn't quit.

hotpotamus 4y ago

If I was a sadistic type and in a position of authority at Amazon, I'd just say that WFH is entirely optional, but may be a factor in employee evaluations. Perhaps I'd set up some board that displays how many days each person is in the office vs home.

vuln 4y ago
What do you think they do with _unlimited_ Paid Time Off usage numbers? Boss at review time "well Bob only took 5 days off last year, you're at 15... Do you think maybe you could be a better team player? It's not fair that you're taking triple of what your team members are. Think of them and the stress they have when you're on PTO." Excerpt from one of my actual reviews. I quit a week later. Edit: I joined the second week of January 2 weeks after unlimited PTO went into affect. Before unlimited <5 years got 15 days PTO.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
  Was Bob 22 years old, single, and addicted to Adderall?
- robryan 4y ago
  Such a silly policy, if they have a number in mind for acceptable annual leave just make that the policy.
  - vuln 4y ago
    Well how are you going to attract new young talent you must ply them with free stuff and gimmicks like unlimited PTO. Hell, mobile network providers have been using the word _unlimited_ with a cap without any reprocussions for what decades? I think companies that offer _unlimited_ PTO should set a minimal baseline of 10-15 days per year.
- rossdavidh 4y ago
  You know, some of the other staff are wearing 20 pieces of flair...

buildbot 4y ago

How is this not constructive dismissal? If you signed a contract stating that you work remotely, does Amazon have the power to unilaterally change that?

jldugger 4y ago
I suspect it is, but done in such a way as to avoid some of the larger lawsuits from layoffs. Sure you can enjoy the peanuts unemployment gives you by claiming it, but I imagine its somewhat harder to file a discrimination claim? edit: and i doubt amazon made any promises about remote work
ralph84 4y ago
In at-will employment the terms of employment can be changed at any time. As long as the terms weren’t changed because of membership in a protected class it’s completely legal in the US.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  Unless you have a contract. Contracts cannot be unilaterally changed.
  - eftychis 4y ago
    Employers unfortunately think otherwise. From experience when the time comes, most people cower and accept the new status quo. Again from unfortunate experience. Feel free to take it as an anecdotal point. Employers do it because it works and employees don't have the knowledge or means to protect their rights.
    - JohnFen 4y ago
      Well, it doesn't matter what the employers think. It matters what the court thinks. Of course, it takes time and effort to sue and I imagine a lot of people would just let it go.
- zamalek 4y ago

Apocryphon 4y ago

Is that why the Twitch CEO is leaving

Ancalagon 4y ago

Would love to see an engineering union form from this

whydoyoucare 4y ago
Heck no, as long as human minds are corruptible, unions will decimate the group they are designed to protect.
- CydeWeys 4y ago
  Human minds being corruptible, applied to management and shareholders, does a good job of explaining why unions are necessary in the first place.
- dtjb 4y ago
  My understanding of US history is that almost all meaningful worker protections were fought for and seized by labor unions. Things like the 40 hour work week, paid leave, overtime pay, etc.
  - rattlesnakedave 4y ago
    What have they produced since 1940?
    - lazyasciiart 4y ago
      A bizarrely rightwing investment in the anti-Communist witch hunts, and a pretty enormous structural backlash in the form of the Taft-Hartley act?
- surgical_fire 4y ago
  [flagged]
alfalfasprout 4y ago
People are so anti-union but don't realize how much they could help with other problems: 1. Companies rampantly abusing the H1B system 2. Wild discrepancy in the skills and quality of software engineers 3. "top tier" companies acting as a cabal to reduce comp + benefits of employees. 4. Companies abusing the use of "contractors" to get around full time hiring. I see so many people including on HN decrying the pay engineers get. Wait till you see how much money companies make off your labor.

saos 4y ago

Amazon and big corp will win this. Probably best for these engineers to move on and find a company that will allow 100% working. Good luck > The same engineers upset about the RTO policy here to stay are also talking about canceling their Prime memberships or boycotting Amazon. ohhh scary > At the same time, looking at the market, it’s hard not to ask the question: if people want to leave, where will they leave to? Meta just announced more cuts - and closing all 5,000 open positions. Dozens of tech companies have put similar, 3-day return to office policies in place starting from December, I've been saying this for ages. Big corp were always going to go BACK to hybrid working which was in place pre-pandemic. BAU

kps 4y ago
> Probably best for these engineers to move on and find a company that will allow 100% working. I felt the same way about open-office distractions.
- morelisp 4y ago
  "Programmers already hated the changes to their working environment made in the past 15 years" but they nonetheless happened; it seems to me strong evidence they'll also return to office.

mabbo 4y ago

Every day at 5pm, I do three things: 1. I turn off my work computer and exit my home office. 2. I get a big hug from my 1 year old daughter. 3. I remind myself how glad I am that I left Amazon, because it was obvious in 2021 that they'd do this eventually. Tech survey 2021 showed that most devs preferred remote at least half of the time or more. The S-team had those numbers. Then they sent out an email saying "we know you all can't wait to be back in the office!". They simply don't care what you think or want.

beezlebroxxxxxx 4y ago
All employee surveys are corporate theater. They create the illusion that employees and owners/management are equal parties in a discussion. They aren't. Corporations are oligarchical in nature. The philosopher Elizabeth Anderson calls them "private governments" with powers over our lives that would make most political theorists squeal.
- raspberry1337 4y ago
  [flagged]
- cjrp 4y ago
  I think the surveys play a role. They help the employer see whether the new policy will be easy or slightly tricky to implement. Either way it’s happening.
  - nikau 4y ago
    Its providing the illusion of choice. Like on an airplane when they ask 'chicken or beef' - you ask for beef, "sorry we only have chicken left"
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  People in tech are among the most advantaged when it comes to salary/job conditions negotiation, and the possibility of saving up a reasonable reserve cash fund "just in case". For the opposite, see shop clerks, phone marketers etc. Few people want to do such jobs unless in dire straits; there was a famous article from the Resident Contrarian about it.

shmatt 4y ago

I don't understand G.O's obsession with Amazon RTO and not the rest of the industry. No, it's not "unprecedented pushback", Apple employees fought much harder, executives publicly quit, and employees went to the media with names publicly exposed. And yet they went back to the office (those who didn't quit, which might of been intentional on Apples part) Now back to G.O, I really really don't understand the hype surrounding him in the industry as if his words mean anything. He was a line manager at Uber 2017-2020. And left the industry. He writes as if he had held multiple SVP positions analyzing how and why engineering orgs do things. He writes about Uber once in a while, in such a generic way, as if in a 30,000 person org all teams have the same ways of working His writing in clueless, its 90% "I have been told", "people in the company are telling me", its basically a mix of DJT's ex-twitter feed and Blind. His latest "trick" was scanning LinkedIn to show that in the past 45 days Google's engineering org grew by 6%. I really doubt that happened, Googlers I know really doubt that happened, and using LinkedIn which doesn't verify employment is a very poor way of analyzing data

lisasays 4y ago
Yeah, it's very strange when people think of LinkedIn "data" as some finely calibrate scientific instrument. At best, it produces "anecdata at scale" (biased heavily towards people who or of a certain personality type that enjoys spending time on LinkedIn).
- Sebb767 4y ago
  In fact, this data could actually indicate the opposite effect as well, with the LinkedIn org growing because people update their profile to start looking for jobs.
dnissley 4y ago
He's a journalist now, therefore he does what journalists have always been incentivized to do: write clickbait articles. Amazon RTO is a hot topic, simple as that.
playingalong 4y ago
He claims (or at least implies) to have a lot of contacts in the industry, especially among the cool known brands. If true, relatively few people can claim so.

black_13 4y ago

[dead]

jlongr 4y ago

"We believe that employees are much more likely to understand our unique culture and become part of it if they are surrounded by other Amazonians in person" This statement strikes me as dishonest. 'Culture', a nebulous and immeasurable term, is clearly being used to lasso people back to the office for an ulterior motive. Are there truly no reasons for RTO more firm and factual than absorbing culture, whatever that may be? The author asserts that Amazon could be trying to increase attrition, but is this really the reason? Maintaining office buildings and bringing people into them just so that some of them might quit?

thwayunion 4y ago
> "We believe that employees are much more likely to understand our unique culture and become part of it if they are surrounded by other Amazonians in person" Sounds like a cult.
adingus 4y ago
If the culture is so special then why do people not want to go back?

toomuchtodo 4y ago

I certainly hope those 30k Amazon workers maybe consider unionizing now, after realizing that executive leadership doesn't give one single care what they think. Organizing efforts are federally protected, and if they're going to get drummed out anyway, not much to lose. You won't have a seat at the table until you drag it there yourself and bolt it to the ground. Don't want to be treated like a disposable cog who can have their work arrangement changed at any time? Organize. If people tell you "just go get another job", ignore them. You don't want another job, you want agency and protections at your job. I imagine the current administration would be friendly to backstopping those efforts via the NLRB [1]. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=nlrb+amazon https://www.google.com/search?q=nlrb+amazon

brailsafe 4y ago

If for whatever reason you'd like to backup a slack conversation and you don't have export privileges, check out SlackDump. Used it yesterday to back up a private conversation. Though it probably wouldn't be useful in a vast majority of cases, your employer would probably prefer you didn't have an external record of any messages exchanged. Also imap-backup for when you get an alert in the middle of the night that you're suddenly having email syncing issues.

angarg12 4y ago

> I consistently pay attention to what Amazon does, as the company has read the market well for the past decades: both from a business perspective, and also from how to attract and retain software engineers - doing this in a frugal way. I've been in Amazon for several years, and I couldn't disagree more. Amazon has always been terrible at attracting, and particularly retaining talent. It's compensation philosophy is bad at rewarding tenured employees and high performers. The saving grace was that stock grew insanely during the bull market of the 2010s. Many people made lots of money and it acted as very effective golden handcuffs. However the situation is very different now. Stock has been flat for over 2 years, so the singular most important reason to stay is gone. It's going to be interesting to see how the market evolves during the next 1-1.5 years. I definitely agree it's interesting to pay attention to what Amazon does. Whether it's to copy or avoid it, remains to be seen.

brutusurp 4y ago
> Amazon has always been terrible at attracting, and particularly retaining talent. Could not agree more. It appears the culture is quite toxic, in addition to the lower-tier pay. Not to many people ever leave Amazon saying "wow, most fun ever" like they do at places like Google. Even when layoffs were happening, ex-Googlers were consistently expressing sorrow over losing a team they really enjoying working with. Not so for Amazon. Instead it's chants of "never again."

julienreszka 4y ago

This is an easy way to lose your best workers

revlolz 4y ago
I've seen a handful of seniors already quit and some of the best L8's/directors openly distressed with no lever to improve morale. Many teams are now down to the idea guys. Amazing leadership from the top. Layoffs, RTO, stock down over 40% YoY, and no comp increases even with inflation. They must be playing limbo because' how low can they go?'
- Seattle3503 4y ago
  > Many teams are now down to the idea guys. What do you mean by this?
  - nikau 4y ago
    people who talk but dont do
    - SauciestGNU 4y ago
      Man that's a great description, my greatest professional fear is becoming a useless ideas guy.
      - Izkata 4y ago
        Didn't it start as something they described themselves as, in an attempt to imply the doers don't have any good ideas themselves and needed an "idea guy" to come up with something?
        revlolz 4y ago
        Probably, but the above poster's paraphrasing "people who talk but dont do" is what was in my mind.

rybosworld 4y ago

Amazon, a company famous for poor treatment of employees, is treating employees poorly once again. Shocked pickachu face

nfRfqX5n 4y ago

imagine you're the one person on your team in a different location, driving to the office just to sit by yourself with non dedicated seating with no monitors/keyboard/mouse

jdlyga 4y ago

Here are some badly thought out reasons to return to the office: 1). Collaboration: Most of the time this makes no sense since teams are much more geographically distributed nowadays since Covid. Are you actually talking to people in person, or are you on the same zoom meetings all day? 2). Team Management: There are better ways to monitor if work is getting done than by checking if butts are in seats, and that doesn't include checking if your Teams bubble is green either. 3). Productivity: Some people are more focused and productive at work, and some people are more focused and productive at home. It depends on the way your brain works and what your office is like. This is not to say returning to the office is a bad idea, but we need to be honest and realistic. There are actually good reasons for being in the office. 1). To have lunch with people in your building, or meet up with coworkers for happy hour after work. 2). If your office building is a nice place to work, has perks, and you enjoy being there. Are you able to focus and get work done, or is it busy and stressful? Does your office have events that are _actually_ fun, not just pretend work fun? 3). To have a separate place to compartmentalize work stress so you don't take it home with you. It's much easier to not think about work when you're working in a different place than you're sleeping. Bonus: An internet connection with better upload speeds. This depends on your ISP, but typically in the U.S. unless you have FiOS it's very slow.

dbg31415 4y ago

Feels relevant. Amazon just doesn’t want their real estate values to decline even more due to everyone working remote now. https://therealdeal.com/new-york/2022/02/04/amazon-doubled-its-real-estate-holdings-in-2021/ https://therealdeal.com/new-york/2022/02/04/amazon-doubled-i...

thwayunion 4y ago
Not an apologist, but warehouse and data center real estate seems inversely correlated with RTO? The article isn't about their office space...

animitronix 4y ago

Awesome, their engineers can come work for me :D