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I get the concerns with AI, but this kind of thing has always looked odd to me. Like imagine a label on a thing that says "Made without CNC machinery". So inst

I get the concerns with AI, but this kind of thing has always looked odd to me. Like imagine a label on a thing that says "Made without CNC machinery". So instead of finishing the thing on a CNC mill, they instead stuck it on a Bridgeport manual mill, and finished by hand. Or somebody finished the cast with a file. Okay, and so? In the end, a hammer is a hammer. If it hammers well, what difference does it make how it got that precise shape? It's not like some inherent goodness is being imparted by a hand file. Now I get some methods have flaws to them, and some form of associated harm. The problem I see with blaming specific tools is that it's simplifying the problem too much. Eg, if the problem is taking jobs, then picking up one particular tool to blame for that allows manufacturers to use a different tool and cause the same sort of issue. If the problem is say, pollution, then it's not at all a given that the replacement method will be ecologically friendly. IMO the better thing to do is to target the underlying problem. If say, your issue is ecology, then you want to certify that the manufacture is as environmentally friendly as it can be, not that the thing isn't made from plastic, or there exists the chance that the non-plastic thing will even be worse for the environment.

version_five 4y ago
I can see a difference for creative works. I'd be more interested to know that I'm looking at something an artist did intentionally than something sampled from a manifold of similar works. Just like I'd rather (all things being equal) have a real drawing or painting than a print. You can make analogies in other art forms too. And if someone is going to send me a sales pitch or email that GPT wrote, I'd rather they don't insult me and just send me the prompt. I think tfa is a gimmick, but i see value in knowing whether I'm relating to a human brain or to a statistical model
- dale_glass 4y ago
  External help is not at all unusual in artwork. Eg, many artists just look for reference pictures online when they want to depict a tricky pose. Apparently the infamous Captain America picture happened because of a bad usage of a reference. Or manga artists use things like screentones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2U4EfKCfjI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2U4EfKCfjI I think AI will go down that road. Yeah, lots of people will mess around with prompts, but artists able to retouch the output, and to mix and match stuff will get much better results.
- chii 4y ago
  > I'd rather they don't insult me and just send me the prompt. and the prompt makes no sense to you, because you are not able to interpret it the way you would interpret the generated output of said prompt. The information isn't in the prompt, and never was.
  - hooverd 4y ago
    I think the correct response here would be to reply to sales emails with double the length of AI generated and leading-on text.
- tnel77 4y ago
  You could argue that the hammer from the previous example is a creative work. A hammer, a pair of shoes, a leather sofa, etc. They all have an element of craftsmanship and it seems like people who do that work usually take pride in it from an artistic and quality standpoint.
nerdponx 4y ago
I don't think there's a valid analogy in physical manufacturing processes like machining. Certainly not this. Few people are upset at the idea of using AI to help draft emails that you then edit by hand, or to help write boilerplate code.
grog454 4y ago
> In the end, a hammer is a hammer. If it hammers well, what difference does it make how it got that precise shape? "Hand made" has been a selling point since things were first made by things other than hands. Example: "The factory, known as the Ateller, [...] it is the place where our craftspeople assemble each BUGATTI by hand."
- dale_glass 4y ago
  I never got the appeal of that honestly, less for something like a BUGATTI. Not like an artisan hammered the panels into shape by hand, or somebody manually bored those cylinders. In fact it's probably something completely incidental to the entire thing -- they're not assembled by hand because it's better, but because not enough of the cars are made to make automation make sense. It's just a pragmatic business decision, which then some marketer figured out how to spin.
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    > It's just a pragmatic business decision, which then some marketer figured out how to spin. Possibly but not necessarily. Automation limits what you can do as you are restricted to what the machines can do. Hand-made components do not have the same limits. Additionally, materials are often not perfect or uniform and a machine will work with different tolerances than a craftsman. Lastly, in certain cases the idea is the craftsman can discern the better materials and choose accordingly. So for instance when making acoustic instruments, being "hand-made" means that the craftsman could tap-test the wood and use discretion on which pieces to use for each instrument. They would have examined the wood for both structural and form considerations. There would be special attention to assembly and anything custom can be done. Independent decisions would be made on a case by case basis instead of using a general rule. Handmade also implies superior materials because when automation is used, often the inputs are the most expensive part. When you go to a handmade hob, the labor generally will far surpass the costs of materials so using premium materials is of little consequence to the final price. But yes, marketing can be a big part of it in many cases.
- gowld 4y ago
  That's because "handmade" was a proxy for "high quality", in situations where machines lack the skill to meet tolerances and fine details and customization that humans can.
benhurmarcel 4y ago
> Like imagine a label on a thing that says "Made without CNC machinery". So instead of finishing the thing on a CNC mill, they instead stuck it on a Bridgeport manual mill, and finished by hand. Or somebody finished the cast with a file. This is basically the selling point of the entire luxury watches industry.

version_five 4y ago

I can see a difference for creative works. I'd be more interested to know that I'm looking at something an artist did intentionally than something sampled from a manifold of similar works. Just like I'd rather (all things being equal) have a real drawing or painting than a print. You can make analogies in other art forms too. And if someone is going to send me a sales pitch or email that GPT wrote, I'd rather they don't insult me and just send me the prompt. I think tfa is a gimmick, but i see value in knowing whether I'm relating to a human brain or to a statistical model

dale_glass 4y ago
External help is not at all unusual in artwork. Eg, many artists just look for reference pictures online when they want to depict a tricky pose. Apparently the infamous Captain America picture happened because of a bad usage of a reference. Or manga artists use things like screentones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2U4EfKCfjI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2U4EfKCfjI I think AI will go down that road. Yeah, lots of people will mess around with prompts, but artists able to retouch the output, and to mix and match stuff will get much better results.
chii 4y ago
> I'd rather they don't insult me and just send me the prompt. and the prompt makes no sense to you, because you are not able to interpret it the way you would interpret the generated output of said prompt. The information isn't in the prompt, and never was.
- hooverd 4y ago
  I think the correct response here would be to reply to sales emails with double the length of AI generated and leading-on text.
tnel77 4y ago
You could argue that the hammer from the previous example is a creative work. A hammer, a pair of shoes, a leather sofa, etc. They all have an element of craftsmanship and it seems like people who do that work usually take pride in it from an artistic and quality standpoint.

nerdponx 4y ago

I don't think there's a valid analogy in physical manufacturing processes like machining. Certainly not this. Few people are upset at the idea of using AI to help draft emails that you then edit by hand, or to help write boilerplate code.

grog454 4y ago

> In the end, a hammer is a hammer. If it hammers well, what difference does it make how it got that precise shape? "Hand made" has been a selling point since things were first made by things other than hands. Example: "The factory, known as the Ateller, [...] it is the place where our craftspeople assemble each BUGATTI by hand."

dale_glass 4y ago
I never got the appeal of that honestly, less for something like a BUGATTI. Not like an artisan hammered the panels into shape by hand, or somebody manually bored those cylinders. In fact it's probably something completely incidental to the entire thing -- they're not assembled by hand because it's better, but because not enough of the cars are made to make automation make sense. It's just a pragmatic business decision, which then some marketer figured out how to spin.
- nemo44x 4y ago
  > It's just a pragmatic business decision, which then some marketer figured out how to spin. Possibly but not necessarily. Automation limits what you can do as you are restricted to what the machines can do. Hand-made components do not have the same limits. Additionally, materials are often not perfect or uniform and a machine will work with different tolerances than a craftsman. Lastly, in certain cases the idea is the craftsman can discern the better materials and choose accordingly. So for instance when making acoustic instruments, being "hand-made" means that the craftsman could tap-test the wood and use discretion on which pieces to use for each instrument. They would have examined the wood for both structural and form considerations. There would be special attention to assembly and anything custom can be done. Independent decisions would be made on a case by case basis instead of using a general rule. Handmade also implies superior materials because when automation is used, often the inputs are the most expensive part. When you go to a handmade hob, the labor generally will far surpass the costs of materials so using premium materials is of little consequence to the final price. But yes, marketing can be a big part of it in many cases.
gowld 4y ago
That's because "handmade" was a proxy for "high quality", in situations where machines lack the skill to meet tolerances and fine details and customization that humans can.

benhurmarcel 4y ago

> Like imagine a label on a thing that says "Made without CNC machinery". So instead of finishing the thing on a CNC mill, they instead stuck it on a Bridgeport manual mill, and finished by hand. Or somebody finished the cast with a file. This is basically the selling point of the entire luxury watches industry.