6 ms·

One thing I was not prepared for was the taxes. My total tax bill comes out to around 39% of my pay check... paying $2k/mo in state/city taxes alone. Shocking,

by mcntsh 4y ago

One thing I was not prepared for was the taxes. My total tax bill comes out to around 39% of my pay check... paying $2k/mo in state/city taxes alone. Shocking, coming from Germany, where the tax (minus health insurance) was almost exactly the same percentage, but I get a *lot* less for it.

malshe 4y ago
39% is insane! The infrastructure is crumbling so not sure what are they doing with all the money
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  cops mostly
  - malshe 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - logicalmonster 4y ago
      I'm not going to say that I'm in love with the cops in NYC and I certainly have my own list of issues with them, but in general I'd say that at least NYC has usually felt pretty safe regardless of the area. Hard to say that about many other cities.
      - twblalock 4y ago
        In quite a few places in NYC, including the subway, it actually feels like a crazy person could stab you at any moment. When people leave the city and feel an unanticipated sense of relaxation, it's because they were used to living in fear and looking over their shoulders all the time, and they don't need to do that in their new surroundings.
        giraffe_lady 4y ago
        It feels that way mostly because there is a coordinated media campaign to make sure people feel that way. Addiction, homelessness, and antisocial behavior are problems on the public transit of every major city but I would like to challenge you to ask yourself why we assume the natural response is fear when rates of violent crimes are at or near historic lows.
        twblalock 4y ago
        > Addiction, homelessness, and antisocial behavior are problems on the public transit of every major city Mainly in America. I never saw that kind of behavior on any transit I ever took in Europe or Asia. They simply would not tolerate it there. Yet again this is our government in the United States failing to control something that other countries can deal with.
        giraffe_lady 4y ago
        Oh yeah agreed. This isn't a problem that can be solved by cops though, if it were NYC would have already solved it.
- darth_avocado 4y ago
  More city employees for more arbitrary rules they make up to make your life more miserable and get more money from you.
- rufus_foreman 4y ago
  At the federal level, if https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-budget-101/spending/ https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-bud... is to be believed: Social Security, Unemployment & Labor: 39.63% Medicare & Health: 22.67% Military: 10.91% Education: 6.21% Interest on Debt: 4.27% Veteran's Benefits: 4.27% Everything Else: 12.04%
  - twblalock 4y ago
    Looking at where the money goes would make you think everything is fine. Most of it seems to be dedicated to good social outcomes. But in reality that money is being wasted and the services we get for it are a total joke.
ews 4y ago
As somebody who also moved from Europe: how high US taxes are compared to how little you get is shocking.
- zwieback 4y ago
  That puts the discussion that we should pay less for "defense" into perspective. And make our healthcare system more efficient, those two knobs are what I'd like to turn.
  - theGnuMe 4y ago
    There is an argument that US defense spending also pays to protect Europe. So maybe the EU should pay for US healthcare.
  - haldujai 4y ago
    At face value I agree with you but those two statements are also very complicated. With respect to defense budget, one of the reasons the US economy is so strong is because of its military. Since WWII America has expanded its sphere of influence to encompass the entire world and dating back to the Monroe doctrine has operated with a 'f--- around and find out' attitude, that only works if you have the military hence why so much is spent on force projection. As a result the US has relatively unfettered access to natural resources, favourable exports/trade policies, IP protection (e.g. semiconductor exports to China) and economic power (e.g. the petrodollar) which stems from being the biggest and baddest. It can certainly be argued to what extent we still need to be doing this, but its not as simple as 'spend less on defense', or your sanctions won't mean anything anymore and there will be far less incentive for foreign powers to act in ways that are favourable to American interests. I don't know the answer to this question but the discussions by foreign policy experts have led me to believe this is far more complicated than it seems. With respect to healthcare efficiency, looking at $ spent/resident is overly inflated. All healthcare systems are terribly inefficient with different tradeoffs, absolutely agree that it needs improving, but it's also not as bad as the media would have you believe. Another reason the US spends so much is that the level of care for complex cases is also much higher than anywhere else in the world and almost all major medical advances and research comes out of the US. Looking at Canada we are at historic lows in research spending and there are countless treatments we do not offer. In both of these scenarios it's also worth noting that a large chunk of both expenditures goes towards paying salaries (and most to non-executives), so 'spending' at face value is not necessarily 'bad'.
2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
I'm not in NY but I think that taxes hit the middle class too hard. They really need to figure out SS as well. I wouldn't mind paying for it if I were guaranteed to receive it but I have to save assuming that I won't.
- slg 4y ago
  >They really need to figure out SS as well. I wouldn't mind paying for it if I were guaranteed to receive it but I have to save assuming that I won't. You are guaranteed to get it by law. The problem is that the law can be changed to remove that guarantee. There isn't much we can really do to prevent that. The narrative about SS running out of money is about the desire/need to change the law, not that the guarantee can't/won't be met.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- treeman79 4y ago
  You will get it. You’ll just be extremely old, far beyond working age, and it wont keep up with actual inflation, so you can’t live on it. Should see social security disability. Got to be able to live for a year or more on no income at all while case managers decide that your horrific injuries don’t interfere with ability to work.
twblalock 4y ago
This is why the debate about taxes in America is not like it is in Europe. Europeans get a lot more for their tax dollars than Americans. If you add up federal, state, local, and property taxes, the tax burden of many Americans is just as high as what Europeans pay and we don't get free health care or anywhere near the level of social safety net that Europeans do. The money is being spent inefficiently. When you see Americans vote against tax increases, don't be tempted to think it's because we don't want better government services. We vote against tax increases because we know we don't get good value for the money we pay, and paying more isn't going to fix that.
- it_citizen 4y ago
  Turns out it costs a lot of money to have a « war on drugs », « war on terror », « war on crime » and so on. Not sure about the results though.
  - throwaway6734 4y ago
    A very large chunk of federal taxes are for UBI and universal healthcare for old people
    - bell-cot 4y ago
      But doesn't Germany also provide those?
    - it_citizen 4y ago
      That’s the case for a lot of european countries and they get much more from it.
    - calgarymicro 4y ago
      Basically every country in Europe (and many elsewhere) is able to offer both of these, plus universal healthcare for everyone, often with a similar tax burden. Social Security and Medicare aren't the problem here.
yankeefoxtrot 4y ago
Residents must pay NY state taxes (already high), and NYC has a separate city income tax that varies from ~4–10% depending on your bracket.
- huehehue 4y ago
  Do you have a source for that? The highest city tax bracket I can find is 3.867% To be clear, it's still ridiculous to pay hundreds of dollars a month extra just to live in the five boroughs but 10% would be unmanageable
  - mcntsh 4y ago
    For earners making over 60k the cost is $2176 plus 3.867% of your income[1], which brings the total % of liable tax up. [1]: https://www.nyc.gov/assets/finance/downloads/pdf/22pdf/business_tax_forms/nyc-1127_2022.pdf https://www.nyc.gov/assets/finance/downloads/pdf/22pdf/busin...
    - tzs 4y ago
      That's plus 3.867% of the amount of income that is over $60000.
      - mcntsh 4y ago
        You can go plug your income into a tax calculator for NYC and you’ll see that on a 200k income you’d be paying 4.15% on each pay check - this takes into account the progressive tax system on the federal state and city level. This is almost exactly what comes out of my paychecks every two weeks, and no I don’t get much back at the end of the year.
kilroy123 4y ago
The crazy thing is with all the taxes we pay it _still_ does not cover the expenses and we go more and more into debt each year.
- TSiege 4y ago
  For the feds maybe, but not in NYC or NYS
vanilla_nut 4y ago
It was shocking for me when I graduated from college and moved to NYC. Sure, it's cool to get a job paying six figures in NYC out of college. But once you've paid your: - rent (first and last up front, ofc) - broker fees (often > 1 month's rent!) - state taxes - city taxes - federal taxes - social security - massively inflated city grocery prices - student loan dues ...you realize that you basically only exist to launder money between corporations. It especially sucks when you're just trying to start out with a net worth of less than zero and you're still paying this massive tax rate. And before anyone mentions student loan interest deductions and federal tax deductions for state and local: they make very little difference, in my experience. Maybe others have figured out how to make that system work for them, especially before the Trump SALT deduction cap. NYC is a cool city, of course -- probably the best city in the US -- but I'm not sure it's worth the 50% tax rate for decidedly middle class earners. At this point I'd have to make north of $400k/year to justify moving back to NYC because of those insane taxes.
yieldcrv 4y ago
The American system incentivizes financial risk and that is our growth engine. If you take the correct risks you basically don't pay taxes. If you try to avoid risk, you pay the highest taxes. So if you are just trying to have income and savings, enjoy your 39% taxes and nothing to show for it.
GaryNumanVevo 4y ago
Yeah that was something that surprised us after moving to Amsterdam, we have a slightly smaller tax rate (due to Netherland's 30% ruling for US expats) than we did in California, but the services here are SO well funded. Healthcare is essentially free, services for families like childcare / schools / etc are world class and free, the roads and biking infrastructure are amazing here as well. The peace of mind that if we have a medical emergency that we won't have to pay 5 or 6 figures out just for an ER visit + surgery is HUGE.

by mcntsh 4y ago

malshe 4y ago

39% is insane! The infrastructure is crumbling so not sure what are they doing with all the money

giraffe_lady 4y ago
cops mostly
- malshe 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - logicalmonster 4y ago
    I'm not going to say that I'm in love with the cops in NYC and I certainly have my own list of issues with them, but in general I'd say that at least NYC has usually felt pretty safe regardless of the area. Hard to say that about many other cities.
    - twblalock 4y ago
      In quite a few places in NYC, including the subway, it actually feels like a crazy person could stab you at any moment. When people leave the city and feel an unanticipated sense of relaxation, it's because they were used to living in fear and looking over their shoulders all the time, and they don't need to do that in their new surroundings.
      - giraffe_lady 4y ago
        It feels that way mostly because there is a coordinated media campaign to make sure people feel that way. Addiction, homelessness, and antisocial behavior are problems on the public transit of every major city but I would like to challenge you to ask yourself why we assume the natural response is fear when rates of violent crimes are at or near historic lows.
        twblalock 4y ago
        > Addiction, homelessness, and antisocial behavior are problems on the public transit of every major city Mainly in America. I never saw that kind of behavior on any transit I ever took in Europe or Asia. They simply would not tolerate it there. Yet again this is our government in the United States failing to control something that other countries can deal with.
        giraffe_lady 4y ago
        Oh yeah agreed. This isn't a problem that can be solved by cops though, if it were NYC would have already solved it.
darth_avocado 4y ago
More city employees for more arbitrary rules they make up to make your life more miserable and get more money from you.
rufus_foreman 4y ago
At the federal level, if https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-budget-101/spending/ https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-bud... is to be believed: Social Security, Unemployment & Labor: 39.63% Medicare & Health: 22.67% Military: 10.91% Education: 6.21% Interest on Debt: 4.27% Veteran's Benefits: 4.27% Everything Else: 12.04%
- twblalock 4y ago
  Looking at where the money goes would make you think everything is fine. Most of it seems to be dedicated to good social outcomes. But in reality that money is being wasted and the services we get for it are a total joke.

ews 4y ago

As somebody who also moved from Europe: how high US taxes are compared to how little you get is shocking.

zwieback 4y ago
That puts the discussion that we should pay less for "defense" into perspective. And make our healthcare system more efficient, those two knobs are what I'd like to turn.
- theGnuMe 4y ago
  There is an argument that US defense spending also pays to protect Europe. So maybe the EU should pay for US healthcare.
- haldujai 4y ago
  At face value I agree with you but those two statements are also very complicated. With respect to defense budget, one of the reasons the US economy is so strong is because of its military. Since WWII America has expanded its sphere of influence to encompass the entire world and dating back to the Monroe doctrine has operated with a 'f--- around and find out' attitude, that only works if you have the military hence why so much is spent on force projection. As a result the US has relatively unfettered access to natural resources, favourable exports/trade policies, IP protection (e.g. semiconductor exports to China) and economic power (e.g. the petrodollar) which stems from being the biggest and baddest. It can certainly be argued to what extent we still need to be doing this, but its not as simple as 'spend less on defense', or your sanctions won't mean anything anymore and there will be far less incentive for foreign powers to act in ways that are favourable to American interests. I don't know the answer to this question but the discussions by foreign policy experts have led me to believe this is far more complicated than it seems. With respect to healthcare efficiency, looking at $ spent/resident is overly inflated. All healthcare systems are terribly inefficient with different tradeoffs, absolutely agree that it needs improving, but it's also not as bad as the media would have you believe. Another reason the US spends so much is that the level of care for complex cases is also much higher than anywhere else in the world and almost all major medical advances and research comes out of the US. Looking at Canada we are at historic lows in research spending and there are countless treatments we do not offer. In both of these scenarios it's also worth noting that a large chunk of both expenditures goes towards paying salaries (and most to non-executives), so 'spending' at face value is not necessarily 'bad'.

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago

I'm not in NY but I think that taxes hit the middle class too hard. They really need to figure out SS as well. I wouldn't mind paying for it if I were guaranteed to receive it but I have to save assuming that I won't.

slg 4y ago
>They really need to figure out SS as well. I wouldn't mind paying for it if I were guaranteed to receive it but I have to save assuming that I won't. You are guaranteed to get it by law. The problem is that the law can be changed to remove that guarantee. There isn't much we can really do to prevent that. The narrative about SS running out of money is about the desire/need to change the law, not that the guarantee can't/won't be met.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
treeman79 4y ago
You will get it. You’ll just be extremely old, far beyond working age, and it wont keep up with actual inflation, so you can’t live on it. Should see social security disability. Got to be able to live for a year or more on no income at all while case managers decide that your horrific injuries don’t interfere with ability to work.

twblalock 4y ago

This is why the debate about taxes in America is not like it is in Europe. Europeans get a lot more for their tax dollars than Americans. If you add up federal, state, local, and property taxes, the tax burden of many Americans is just as high as what Europeans pay and we don't get free health care or anywhere near the level of social safety net that Europeans do. The money is being spent inefficiently. When you see Americans vote against tax increases, don't be tempted to think it's because we don't want better government services. We vote against tax increases because we know we don't get good value for the money we pay, and paying more isn't going to fix that.

it_citizen 4y ago
Turns out it costs a lot of money to have a « war on drugs », « war on terror », « war on crime » and so on. Not sure about the results though.
- throwaway6734 4y ago
  A very large chunk of federal taxes are for UBI and universal healthcare for old people
  - bell-cot 4y ago
    But doesn't Germany also provide those?
  - it_citizen 4y ago
    That’s the case for a lot of european countries and they get much more from it.
  - calgarymicro 4y ago
    Basically every country in Europe (and many elsewhere) is able to offer both of these, plus universal healthcare for everyone, often with a similar tax burden. Social Security and Medicare aren't the problem here.

yankeefoxtrot 4y ago

Residents must pay NY state taxes (already high), and NYC has a separate city income tax that varies from ~4–10% depending on your bracket.

huehehue 4y ago
Do you have a source for that? The highest city tax bracket I can find is 3.867% To be clear, it's still ridiculous to pay hundreds of dollars a month extra just to live in the five boroughs but 10% would be unmanageable
- mcntsh 4y ago
  For earners making over 60k the cost is $2176 plus 3.867% of your income[1], which brings the total % of liable tax up. [1]: https://www.nyc.gov/assets/finance/downloads/pdf/22pdf/business_tax_forms/nyc-1127_2022.pdf https://www.nyc.gov/assets/finance/downloads/pdf/22pdf/busin...
  - tzs 4y ago
    That's plus 3.867% of the amount of income that is over $60000.
    - mcntsh 4y ago
      You can go plug your income into a tax calculator for NYC and you’ll see that on a 200k income you’d be paying 4.15% on each pay check - this takes into account the progressive tax system on the federal state and city level. This is almost exactly what comes out of my paychecks every two weeks, and no I don’t get much back at the end of the year.

kilroy123 4y ago

The crazy thing is with all the taxes we pay it _still_ does not cover the expenses and we go more and more into debt each year.

TSiege 4y ago
For the feds maybe, but not in NYC or NYS

vanilla_nut 4y ago

It was shocking for me when I graduated from college and moved to NYC. Sure, it's cool to get a job paying six figures in NYC out of college. But once you've paid your: - rent (first and last up front, ofc) - broker fees (often > 1 month's rent!) - state taxes - city taxes - federal taxes - social security - massively inflated city grocery prices - student loan dues ...you realize that you basically only exist to launder money between corporations. It especially sucks when you're just trying to start out with a net worth of less than zero and you're still paying this massive tax rate. And before anyone mentions student loan interest deductions and federal tax deductions for state and local: they make very little difference, in my experience. Maybe others have figured out how to make that system work for them, especially before the Trump SALT deduction cap. NYC is a cool city, of course -- probably the best city in the US -- but I'm not sure it's worth the 50% tax rate for decidedly middle class earners. At this point I'd have to make north of $400k/year to justify moving back to NYC because of those insane taxes.

yieldcrv 4y ago

The American system incentivizes financial risk and that is our growth engine. If you take the correct risks you basically don't pay taxes. If you try to avoid risk, you pay the highest taxes. So if you are just trying to have income and savings, enjoy your 39% taxes and nothing to show for it.

GaryNumanVevo 4y ago

Yeah that was something that surprised us after moving to Amsterdam, we have a slightly smaller tax rate (due to Netherland's 30% ruling for US expats) than we did in California, but the services here are SO well funded. Healthcare is essentially free, services for families like childcare / schools / etc are world class and free, the roads and biking infrastructure are amazing here as well. The peace of mind that if we have a medical emergency that we won't have to pay 5 or 6 figures out just for an ER visit + surgery is HUGE.