10 ms·

> I was scammed $350 from one of the Zelle scammers. I know, I know, I was stupid for falling for it. No, you were trained to fall for it by companies behaving

> I was scammed $350 from one of the Zelle scammers. I know, I know, I was stupid for falling for it. No, you were trained to fall for it by companies behaving a lot like scammers most of the time.

PM_me_your_math 4y ago
No, he fell for a scam because he was ignorant of how things work. That ignorance is exactly what scammers count on.
- bombolo 4y ago
  There is no good way to authenticate legit vs scam many times. No amount of being clever will put in place a protocol that doesn't exist.
  - nradov 4y ago
    In the case of utility companies you can always just pick up the phone and call their main customer service number to verify your account status and balance. Text messages and emails should always be treated with suspicion, but intercepting outgoing phone calls is outside the capability of regular scammers.
    - shawabawa3 4y ago
      I've received multiple phone calls from my bank to discuss my mortgage Every time they call me and ask to "go through verification" - aka I give a random stranger on the phone the personal information they need to identify themselves with my bank - so I tell them I'll call them back instead Then i call back and get bounced around through multiple teams until inevitably the call drops, I think because my mortgage was bought from another bank so it isn't well understood by customer support Anyway, I think it is legit calls I get from the bank. I hope it isn't important because i still haven't got through to them to talk about it
      - BobaFloutist 4y ago
        This is a frustrating reality, but, out of curiosity, did you ever try asking the name and/or department of the person calling you and using that to try to get back to them when calling back?
      - nradov 4y ago
        Every mortgage holder routinely buys loans from other lenders. If you received bad customer service then it probably wasn't due to that specific cause but rather general incompetence and cost cutting.
  - dntrkv 4y ago
    What utility company is gonna request a payment through Zelle?
    - bluedino 4y ago
      Or iTunes Giftcards!
    - bombolo 4y ago
      How did the scammers even have the correct information? They probably bought it from some data broker. They sell our data to scammers to let them be entirely convincing, and then blame people who fall for it.
      - kanary 4y ago
        The data broker market is ~$250B, it's not all personal data, but the market for personal data to target these scams is huge. The worst part is many data brokers get their data from government sources like the state DMVs: https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/dmvs-are-making-a-fortune-selling-your-personal-data/ https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/dmvs-are-making-a...
  - whywhywouldyou 4y ago
    No matter how many times I've been late for payments in my life, not ONCE have I ever had a human being call me up and demand payment over the phone. It's always a long series of attempts to collect through the mail. Let alone calling up and demanding I pay using Zelle...
  - dexterdog 4y ago
    There is one simple and proven way to authenticate phone scams. You tell them that you will call the company back on the number you already know or have from a bill, or you will pay via the website that you also already know. Until they start commandeering phone numbers or domains you're pretty safe. There is really no reason to answer your phone for numbers you don't know unless you're job hunting or waiting for an important call. I block all numbers not in my contact list. Sure, they can masquerade as a fake number, but even if my caller ID says it's the gas company I'm not going to answer it and if I do I am not giving them any information on that call.
    - pixl97 4y ago
      I mean, you're still someone at risk here if someone mails you a nice looking electric bill a few days before with fake info on it, especially in the case the scammer has enough info on you to make it look realistic.
      - throwaway675309 4y ago
        Uh nooo.... You don't call the number that's provided in the format of the outreach - be that a physical piece of mail or an email or an SMS message. In every case where I've gotten a message / phone call informing me that I need to provide some sensitive information or make a transaction, I determine the organization that they are purportedly representing, navigate to the official website, find the relevant contact info, and call back. I always assumed everybody did this to prevent these exact types of situations.
        dexterdog 4y ago
        Exactly. I have zero concern for my own security when it comes to scams because I know how they work and I hear about all of the latest ones because I am curious about the advances in scamology. I am concerned about my family who are fooled by these things. I'm a cynic by nature so the alerts are firing on communications with uncertified connections. I can't get trusting people to understand that there are people who care primarily about taking advantage of that trust.
  - unsignedint 4y ago
    It has become increasingly difficult to discern legitimate calls in recent times. Lately, I have been receiving calls from my bank, seemingly related to client relations, originating from a variety of random local numbers. These could potentially be the personal mobile numbers of the bank agents, though I cannot be certain. I usually don't answer these calls as I don't recognize the numbers. The only way for me to verify their legitimacy is through the branch number mentioned at the end of the voicemail messages they leave. However, if I were to actually speak with the caller, it would be challenging for me to determine the call's authenticity.
- throw10920 4y ago
  This is victim-blaming. Companies don't make clear "how things work". I've never once found a web page published by a business that makes clear exactly how they will contact you (e.g. by number xxx-xxx-xxxx for security alerts, from email address foo@company.com for bill payments with a link to company.com/billpay, etc.) so that you can follow that sheet to ensure you're not being defrauded, and that's what's needed. Perhaps it's time for some regulation - of course, drafted with the extreme care that almost no regulation is written with, but should be...
  - harvey9 4y ago
    I like it when they say 'call the number printed on your bank card'. If they publish an outbound number then scammers will spoof it.
  - sofixa 4y ago
    Funnily I got some emails and phone calls from Amex some time ago that were extremely phishy (like aexp.com), but they happen to have a website listing the domains they use: https://www.americanexpress.com/us/security-center/phishing-scam-awareness/ https://www.americanexpress.com/us/security-center/phishing-... No such thing for the phone numbers though, and since they were just regular landlines not recognised by Google and not available through a Google search, I declined to provide them any information. There absolutely needs to be regulation for that, like there is the "Mentions Legales" or "Imprint" in France and Germany (a website needs to have a page who they are actually, with an address and everyhing).
    - throw10920 4y ago
      Oh, this is really interesting, I didn't know that Amex had a page like this! This is useful, maybe I can point my bank toward it and ask them to make a similar page. As harvey9 says in a sibling comment, "If they publish an outbound number then scammers will spoof it.", so perhaps publishing a phone number isn't useful - but they should actually state that on their web site, as well as providing a protocol that allows the bank/agency/company/utility to authenticate itself to you. > "Mentions Legales" or "Imprint" in France and Germany (a website needs to have a page who they are actually, with an address and everyhing). I like this concept - let's extend it to include an authentication protocol, as above.
TechBro8615 4y ago
This is especially true of utility companies, who expect you to start paying them money before you ever interact with them or sign any contract, to the point where they will try to destroy your credit score if you don't pay them.
- Semaphor 4y ago
  What? I’m ready to believe a lot of things about the USA, but that seems a bit far-fetched?
  - TechBro8615 4y ago
    It's not far from the truth. I don't think they can technically get away with hitting your credit score before you signed a contract, and instead will send you a "first bill" once you do contact them, which will include the difference between the meter reading when you moved into the property, and whatever reading they had from the last tenant. Often this results in a headache while you try to avoid paying for electricity/gas you didn't consume. But it's not unheard of for utility companies to fuck with your credit score when the only major error you made was not contacting them quickly enough.
  - 98codes 4y ago
    If you have a history of non-payment they may require a security deposit, but with the exception of cable/internet most residential utility bills are sent (and paid) post-usage.
    - anonymouskimmer 4y ago
      > If you have a history of non-payment It happens if you have a history of not being a previous customer with them. I had a notice of good payment history from my previous electric company from another state and the company in the new state still required a deposit.
      - davchana 4y ago
saghm 4y ago
A few years ago before moving into a new apartment, I needed to purchase renter's insurance per the terms of the lease. After filling out the info online with the company, I got a call a few hours later asking to finalize the details, and right before I was about to give them my payment info, I suddenly realized that giving payment info to someone who called me instead of looking up the number myself and calling them is exactly what we're told not to do, so I apologized and asked if it was all right for me to call them back. The person I was talking to said that was totally fine and gave their name and said I could ask for them, so after hanging up, I got the official number and called it. The person I talked to was able to verify that I was in fact talking to someone legit before, but they refused to transfer me to them and instead insisted on completing the transactions themself (presumably for the commission). From what I can tell, the way the reps for this company were paid incentivizes them to call people directly to try to get the sale for themself and by extension _punishes_ them for allowing the customer to take the safe next step of hanging up to look up the number and call back directly.
littlestymaar 4y ago
This. I somehow forgot to pay a bill for daycare, and it went to their payment recovery contractor (it went automatically, without nobody telling me anything despite me going there every day). So the company called, said I had missed a bill and I needed to pay then over the phone with my credit card. Obviously they went mad when I told them I won't pay this way without receiving any king of paper by the mail or something to at least give me the slightest confidence that this wasn't a scam attempt. They ended up mailing me two weeks later, and charged me a fee for late payment… Seriously, how do you want people not to fall for scammers if legit companies act the same way and charge you for being cautious…
wccrawford 4y ago
After I bought my new car, I got an email with a header image that looked like it had been scanned from a physical piece of paper, badly. It referenced my name and the bank I had a loan from, but all the domains in the email were not my bank. It claimed I hadn't sent in proof of insurance. I did that at the dealership on the day I bought the car. I ignored it. I got it again and ignored it. On the third attempt, I finally called my bank. It actually was from them, and they really did somehow not have my proof of insurance, and really were going to cancel my loan. I tried to explain to them what was wrong with the email, but they couldn't understand. Edit: In the end, I physically went to the bank to handle it. I didn't do anything else remotely with them.
pmarreck 4y ago
:: cough :: You've been preselected for a great deal on solar for your home! :: cough :: (every time, me: "Have you bothered to look at the google maps for my home before you called?" Them: "No, let me check... Ohhhh" me: "Yeahhhh... I can't get rid of the trees because they are rooted in the neighbor's property. Not that it wouldn't be quite ironic to remove decades-old trees just to install solar on a roof.")

> I was scammed $350 from one of the Zelle scammers. I know, I know, I was stupid for falling for it. No, you were trained to fall for it by companies behaving a lot like scammers most of the time.

PM_me_your_math 4y ago

No, he fell for a scam because he was ignorant of how things work. That ignorance is exactly what scammers count on.

bombolo 4y ago
There is no good way to authenticate legit vs scam many times. No amount of being clever will put in place a protocol that doesn't exist.
- nradov 4y ago
  In the case of utility companies you can always just pick up the phone and call their main customer service number to verify your account status and balance. Text messages and emails should always be treated with suspicion, but intercepting outgoing phone calls is outside the capability of regular scammers.
  - shawabawa3 4y ago
    I've received multiple phone calls from my bank to discuss my mortgage Every time they call me and ask to "go through verification" - aka I give a random stranger on the phone the personal information they need to identify themselves with my bank - so I tell them I'll call them back instead Then i call back and get bounced around through multiple teams until inevitably the call drops, I think because my mortgage was bought from another bank so it isn't well understood by customer support Anyway, I think it is legit calls I get from the bank. I hope it isn't important because i still haven't got through to them to talk about it
    - BobaFloutist 4y ago
      This is a frustrating reality, but, out of curiosity, did you ever try asking the name and/or department of the person calling you and using that to try to get back to them when calling back?
    - nradov 4y ago
      Every mortgage holder routinely buys loans from other lenders. If you received bad customer service then it probably wasn't due to that specific cause but rather general incompetence and cost cutting.
- dntrkv 4y ago
  What utility company is gonna request a payment through Zelle?
  - bluedino 4y ago
    Or iTunes Giftcards!
  - bombolo 4y ago
    How did the scammers even have the correct information? They probably bought it from some data broker. They sell our data to scammers to let them be entirely convincing, and then blame people who fall for it.
    - kanary 4y ago
      The data broker market is ~$250B, it's not all personal data, but the market for personal data to target these scams is huge. The worst part is many data brokers get their data from government sources like the state DMVs: https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/dmvs-are-making-a-fortune-selling-your-personal-data/ https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/dmvs-are-making-a...
- whywhywouldyou 4y ago
  No matter how many times I've been late for payments in my life, not ONCE have I ever had a human being call me up and demand payment over the phone. It's always a long series of attempts to collect through the mail. Let alone calling up and demanding I pay using Zelle...
- dexterdog 4y ago
  There is one simple and proven way to authenticate phone scams. You tell them that you will call the company back on the number you already know or have from a bill, or you will pay via the website that you also already know. Until they start commandeering phone numbers or domains you're pretty safe. There is really no reason to answer your phone for numbers you don't know unless you're job hunting or waiting for an important call. I block all numbers not in my contact list. Sure, they can masquerade as a fake number, but even if my caller ID says it's the gas company I'm not going to answer it and if I do I am not giving them any information on that call.
  - pixl97 4y ago
    I mean, you're still someone at risk here if someone mails you a nice looking electric bill a few days before with fake info on it, especially in the case the scammer has enough info on you to make it look realistic.
    - throwaway675309 4y ago
      Uh nooo.... You don't call the number that's provided in the format of the outreach - be that a physical piece of mail or an email or an SMS message. In every case where I've gotten a message / phone call informing me that I need to provide some sensitive information or make a transaction, I determine the organization that they are purportedly representing, navigate to the official website, find the relevant contact info, and call back. I always assumed everybody did this to prevent these exact types of situations.
      - dexterdog 4y ago
        Exactly. I have zero concern for my own security when it comes to scams because I know how they work and I hear about all of the latest ones because I am curious about the advances in scamology. I am concerned about my family who are fooled by these things. I'm a cynic by nature so the alerts are firing on communications with uncertified connections. I can't get trusting people to understand that there are people who care primarily about taking advantage of that trust.
- unsignedint 4y ago
  It has become increasingly difficult to discern legitimate calls in recent times. Lately, I have been receiving calls from my bank, seemingly related to client relations, originating from a variety of random local numbers. These could potentially be the personal mobile numbers of the bank agents, though I cannot be certain. I usually don't answer these calls as I don't recognize the numbers. The only way for me to verify their legitimacy is through the branch number mentioned at the end of the voicemail messages they leave. However, if I were to actually speak with the caller, it would be challenging for me to determine the call's authenticity.
throw10920 4y ago
This is victim-blaming. Companies don't make clear "how things work". I've never once found a web page published by a business that makes clear exactly how they will contact you (e.g. by number xxx-xxx-xxxx for security alerts, from email address foo@company.com for bill payments with a link to company.com/billpay, etc.) so that you can follow that sheet to ensure you're not being defrauded, and that's what's needed. Perhaps it's time for some regulation - of course, drafted with the extreme care that almost no regulation is written with, but should be...
- harvey9 4y ago
  I like it when they say 'call the number printed on your bank card'. If they publish an outbound number then scammers will spoof it.
- sofixa 4y ago
  Funnily I got some emails and phone calls from Amex some time ago that were extremely phishy (like aexp.com), but they happen to have a website listing the domains they use: https://www.americanexpress.com/us/security-center/phishing-scam-awareness/ https://www.americanexpress.com/us/security-center/phishing-... No such thing for the phone numbers though, and since they were just regular landlines not recognised by Google and not available through a Google search, I declined to provide them any information. There absolutely needs to be regulation for that, like there is the "Mentions Legales" or "Imprint" in France and Germany (a website needs to have a page who they are actually, with an address and everyhing).
  - throw10920 4y ago
    Oh, this is really interesting, I didn't know that Amex had a page like this! This is useful, maybe I can point my bank toward it and ask them to make a similar page. As harvey9 says in a sibling comment, "If they publish an outbound number then scammers will spoof it.", so perhaps publishing a phone number isn't useful - but they should actually state that on their web site, as well as providing a protocol that allows the bank/agency/company/utility to authenticate itself to you. > "Mentions Legales" or "Imprint" in France and Germany (a website needs to have a page who they are actually, with an address and everyhing). I like this concept - let's extend it to include an authentication protocol, as above.

TechBro8615 4y ago

This is especially true of utility companies, who expect you to start paying them money before you ever interact with them or sign any contract, to the point where they will try to destroy your credit score if you don't pay them.

Semaphor 4y ago
What? I’m ready to believe a lot of things about the USA, but that seems a bit far-fetched?
- TechBro8615 4y ago
  It's not far from the truth. I don't think they can technically get away with hitting your credit score before you signed a contract, and instead will send you a "first bill" once you do contact them, which will include the difference between the meter reading when you moved into the property, and whatever reading they had from the last tenant. Often this results in a headache while you try to avoid paying for electricity/gas you didn't consume. But it's not unheard of for utility companies to fuck with your credit score when the only major error you made was not contacting them quickly enough.
- 98codes 4y ago
  If you have a history of non-payment they may require a security deposit, but with the exception of cable/internet most residential utility bills are sent (and paid) post-usage.
  - anonymouskimmer 4y ago
    > If you have a history of non-payment It happens if you have a history of not being a previous customer with them. I had a notice of good payment history from my previous electric company from another state and the company in the new state still required a deposit.
    - davchana 4y ago

saghm 4y ago

A few years ago before moving into a new apartment, I needed to purchase renter's insurance per the terms of the lease. After filling out the info online with the company, I got a call a few hours later asking to finalize the details, and right before I was about to give them my payment info, I suddenly realized that giving payment info to someone who called me instead of looking up the number myself and calling them is exactly what we're told not to do, so I apologized and asked if it was all right for me to call them back. The person I was talking to said that was totally fine and gave their name and said I could ask for them, so after hanging up, I got the official number and called it. The person I talked to was able to verify that I was in fact talking to someone legit before, but they refused to transfer me to them and instead insisted on completing the transactions themself (presumably for the commission). From what I can tell, the way the reps for this company were paid incentivizes them to call people directly to try to get the sale for themself and by extension _punishes_ them for allowing the customer to take the safe next step of hanging up to look up the number and call back directly.

littlestymaar 4y ago

This. I somehow forgot to pay a bill for daycare, and it went to their payment recovery contractor (it went automatically, without nobody telling me anything despite me going there every day). So the company called, said I had missed a bill and I needed to pay then over the phone with my credit card. Obviously they went mad when I told them I won't pay this way without receiving any king of paper by the mail or something to at least give me the slightest confidence that this wasn't a scam attempt. They ended up mailing me two weeks later, and charged me a fee for late payment… Seriously, how do you want people not to fall for scammers if legit companies act the same way and charge you for being cautious…

wccrawford 4y ago

After I bought my new car, I got an email with a header image that looked like it had been scanned from a physical piece of paper, badly. It referenced my name and the bank I had a loan from, but all the domains in the email were not my bank. It claimed I hadn't sent in proof of insurance. I did that at the dealership on the day I bought the car. I ignored it. I got it again and ignored it. On the third attempt, I finally called my bank. It actually was from them, and they really did somehow not have my proof of insurance, and really were going to cancel my loan. I tried to explain to them what was wrong with the email, but they couldn't understand. Edit: In the end, I physically went to the bank to handle it. I didn't do anything else remotely with them.

pmarreck 4y ago

:: cough :: You've been preselected for a great deal on solar for your home! :: cough :: (every time, me: "Have you bothered to look at the google maps for my home before you called?" Them: "No, let me check... Ohhhh" me: "Yeahhhh... I can't get rid of the trees because they are rooted in the neighbor's property. Not that it wouldn't be quite ironic to remove decades-old trees just to install solar on a roof.")