14 ms·

I was scammed $350 from one of the Zelle scammers. I know, I know, I was stupid for falling for it. My experience went like this: Just moved into new house, ha

• pmarreck 4y ago
  When you move, a whole bunch of information about your move and the fact that you moved becomes available to local business owners. I'm not sure what process is in place that does this (maybe a mailing-address change card you give your post office?) but it is what happens, in the US at least. Usually you'll get a coupon book for local businesses- the fact that they know you just moved in is due to the same process. Anyway, ostensibly bad actors would likely easily get in on this, and frankly it's a clever move because they know you're frazzled and in a state of being disarmed and they knowing you just moved (and where, which explains knowing the name of your electric company) gives them an air of legitimacy and that's the perfect time to strike. Also $350 is not an entirely unreasonable amount of money to ask for.
  • jjoonathan 4y ago
    When you start a business, same thing: you start getting fake bills from fake government agencies. I'm sure many people just pay them because the hassle of reliably figuring out what's real and what isn't can easily exceed the amount of the bill.
    • rtp4me 4y ago
      Yep - 100% agree. I opened a new business back in Nov/Dec 2022, and no less than two weeks did I get multiple, official-looking payment requests for labor law posters. They looked very real with some verbiage about "failure to comply with the law", etc. After I opened the first one, I was very motivated to pay the $89 fee (thinking I missed something when starting the business). However, after reading the letter a few times, I realized it was a scam. The others went in the trash as soon as they came in...
    • thewebcount 4y ago
      This is so fucking infuriating. I don't know why the government can't shut these things down. They basically send you an exact copy of the official form you have to fill out with one line in it somewhere that says, "This is not an official government communication. We are not associated with the government in any way." But other than that, it looks identical to the real form. How is anyone supposed to be able to discern that difference? Luckily I've not yet fallen for it, but I have come close several times. Ass hats.
  • jrootabega 4y ago
    I'm pretty sure the US Postal Service sells as much of your data as possible. Their Informed Delivery service seems to be primarily intended to sell ad space in your emails instead of sending you scans of your paper mail.
  • js2 4y ago
    The USPS sells change of address information. The only way to avoid it is to file the address change as temporary instead of permanent, or not file at all and forgo USPS mail forwarding from the old address. https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamtanner/2013/07/08/how-the-post-office-sells-your-new-address-with-anyone-who-pays-and-the-little-known-loophole-to-opt-out/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamtanner/2013/07/08/how-the-p...
    • epc 4y ago
      When I move I now file a temporary COA and have the mail forwarded to a PO box. I never forward from one residence to another (too many boilerroom sales calls and scam attempts).
  • deleted 4y ago
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  • dexterdog 4y ago
    It's not, but when a utility asks for payment via Zelle you might want to think twice or at least check on their website first.
• lotsofpulp 4y ago
  If someone knocked on your door, claimed they were from The Electric Company, asked you for $350 cash, and you gave it to them, would you say “fuck cash”?
  • jjoonathan 4y ago
    When was the last time you pulled out a stack of $20s and had to wait 48 hours for them to become valid? Cash doesn't try to rationalize all sorts of slow, obnoxious, and expensive behavior on the basis of fraud protection and then fail to protect from fraud. There's obviously a tradeoff here, the problem is getting stuck with the ass end of both sides. I can't really speak to Zelle, but it's definitely true for ACH and wire transfers.
    • lotsofpulp 4y ago
      > Cash doesn't try to rationalize all sorts of slow, obnoxious, and expensive behavior on the basis of fraud protection and then fail to protect from fraud. Neither does Zelle. > When was the last time you pulled out a stack of $20s and had to wait 48 hours for them to become valid? Never, but I have also never had that problem with Zelle in probably hundreds of times using it in over a decade. But I also have never been given counterfeit money via Zelle, which I have been given via cash. Both mechanisms of transferring money seem to be working pretty well, and both have drawbacks/benefits.
      • jjoonathan 4y ago
        Like I said, I can't speak to Zelle, but I can absolutely speak to wire and ACH and they both have these problems in spades. When I hear that Zelle has the same problems, I believe. When I hear that it's perfect, I doubt, but "works for me" is not strong evidence even if true.
      • ncallaway 4y ago
        > in over a decade. Wasn't Zelle introduced in 2017?
• luckylion 4y ago
  How does the scam work, are they using some person (or their account) as a mule and then forward the money? Or is it just unrealistic that anything gets done about $350 so they don't care if you know who they are?
  • krupan 4y ago
    They are in India or Africa and yep, it's only $350 so no nobody (police, bank, etc.) cares
    • kube-system 4y ago
      Even if it’s an amount that someone cares about, these people operate in jurisdictions where they can get away with it.
• paulpauper 4y ago
  No fan of crypto, but the idea of bank protection is kind of a joke. If you authorize the money transfer, they likely will not help you, nor cover the loss. No better than crypto in this regard. Wire transfers are internet for speed, not safety. Banking will always have inherent risks.
  • rootusrootus 4y ago
    To be fair, Zelle is supposed to be competing with the likes of Venmo, where the irreversibility of the transaction is a feature, not a bug. It's supposed to work like cash, for better or worse. Of course, in practice it kinda sucks. Zelle requires giving strangers way too much information about you. I won't use it. Much as I dislike PayPal, I use Venmo for this use case.
    • lotsofpulp 4y ago
      The only thing Zelle requires you to give is an email address (that you choose to associate with your bank account) or phone number. No different than PayPal. It is one of its features. The previous method of sending and receiving money involves giving out your bank account number (even if not to strangers, then to PayPal), which means anyone can pull funds from your account using ACH.
      • rootusrootus 4y ago
        It's better than ACH, I agree. But Venmo is not PayPal, just owned by them. Venmo works with usernames, not email addresses. I don't have to give a stranger anything other than that username for them to send me money.
    • smileysteve 4y ago
      It's the bank consortium trying to compete with Venmo with less technology budget; and fewer controls. It's terrifying that this is the best product the consortium could put out. No wonder VISA/Mastercard exist.
• AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
  > I was scammed $350 from one of the Zelle scammers. I know, I know, I was stupid for falling for it. No, you were trained to fall for it by companies behaving a lot like scammers most of the time.
  • PM_me_your_math 4y ago
    No, he fell for a scam because he was ignorant of how things work. That ignorance is exactly what scammers count on.
    • bombolo 4y ago
      There is no good way to authenticate legit vs scam many times. No amount of being clever will put in place a protocol that doesn't exist.
      • nradov 4y ago
        In the case of utility companies you can always just pick up the phone and call their main customer service number to verify your account status and balance. Text messages and emails should always be treated with suspicion, but intercepting outgoing phone calls is outside the capability of regular scammers.
        • shawabawa3 4y ago
          I've received multiple phone calls from my bank to discuss my mortgage Every time they call me and ask to "go through verification" - aka I give a random stranger on the phone the personal information they need to identify themselves with my bank - so I tell them I'll call them back instead Then i call back and get bounced around through multiple teams until inevitably the call drops, I think because my mortgage was bought from another bank so it isn't well understood by customer support Anyway, I think it is legit calls I get from the bank. I hope it isn't important because i still haven't got through to them to talk about it
          • 4y ago
• jliptzin 4y ago
  I don’t care about Zelle one way or the other but maybe after you complained to them trying to get the first payment reversed they put some kind of a “wait 48 hours flag” on your account for future payments? Also sorry that happened to you, fuck scammers. Don’t blame yourself too hard.
  • iudqnolq 4y ago
    Banks often have policies that have the effect of penalizing reporting fraud and other issues. Right before a trip I wanted to withdraw $60 in cash. I went to one atm, but it showed an error and didn't dispense the cash. So I went to another. Later in the day I saw the first ATM had withdrawn from my account despite the errror. I called and was told if I wanted to ask for the transaction to be reversed they would cancel my card and mail me a new one. Of course, that meant I wouldn't have the card on my trip. I ended up eating the $60. Suppose I could have tried disputing further.
    • notch898a 4y ago
      That's shit. My bank accused me of defrauding them when I told them the person who stole my credit card bought stuff on an invoice that showed the stuff shipped the day before they even bought it.... to a guy called "pirateargggggh3890[roughly]@hotmail.com" from a now flagged known ebay seller/fraudster. The products were a mix of religious and feminine materials ... I am an atheist man in a state far away from the one purchased. I phoned in for an appeal and I was laughed at by the bank employees over the phone, and told I was mistaken and my family members must be the thieves. Claim denied.
      • pixl97 4y ago
        Always record these calls. Screw what the state law says about this.
• deleted 4y ago
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• macinjosh 4y ago
  Don't blame yourself, I can see making the same mistake myself. Moving is stressful and you were just trying to take care of your family and yourself. Blame the scammers, they are the trash that are taking advantage of the emotional state of movers.
• the_svd_doctor 4y ago
  Sorry about that. Regardless of the amount, the feeling of being scammed must suck.
• rtp4me 4y ago
  Thanks for this. Today, I had to open an account to send money to a friend. I was torn between Zelle and Venmo. Per my son's recommendation I went with Venmo. Not sure how many folks get screwed by Zelle, but your post made me feel a little better about going with Venmo. Although, I am sure Venmo has its fair share of shady characters...
  • iudqnolq 4y ago
    FYI Zelle is the banks' clone of Venmo. They both have identical policies here: they don't reverse transactions. Edit: Yardie is correct, this is assuming your counterparty doesn't pay the business fee. So this'll protect you from legitimate businesses, but a scammer isn't going to pay the extra fee to enable reversibility.
    • yardie 4y ago
      I've never needed to but Venmo definitely reverses transactions. But you have to declare it as a business transaction. A lot of businesses don't want to do that because they have to pay a fee. I pay my barber through Venmo and always record it as a service, since I prepay. I pay my tutor as a family transaction. She gets paid after our sessions.
      • kazanz 4y ago
        Speaking from experience, Venmo claims to reverse transactions, but will do everything in their power to NOT reverse your transaction, even if you mark it as business payment. I paid an architect for work over Venmo. Work was never done and the architect ghosted me. So I sent all the info to Venmo in a dispute and they told me to pound sand.
        • yardie 4y ago
          Well that sucks. It seems outside of credit cards there are very few consumer protections.
• ROTMetro 4y ago
  Zelle is very clear it's not reversible. Like very very very clear. It's how it works, so the person on the other end has a guaranty you won't just claw the money back after you complete a transaction. Pretty weak to blame them for your mistake.
  • jallen_dot_dev 4y ago
    Ok but why is it not reversible? Is there any good reason? Is it doing Proof of Work?
    • ROTMetro 4y ago
      It is the digital equivalent of cash. That is the whole point. When you buy something with cash, can you just reverse the transaction later? The good reason is what use is a person to person payment system where the person receiving money has no guaranty that they get to keep the money received.
      • jallen_dot_dev 4y ago
        How is it person to person if there's a 3rd party facilitating the transaction? Why should someone be guaranteed to keep the money if they got it fraudulently, with the victim unable to dispute?
        • pandaman 4y ago
          This is not different from sending physical goods via mail: a 3d party is involved but you will be laughed out of the post office when you demand to return items you sent. And there is no guarantee too: authorities may retrieve your items, though chances are even lower when you send them overseas.
      • titoCA321 4y ago
        Even when you pay by check or ACH, it's not always reversible. It depends on the bank and where it was sent and how long ago.
• conanbatt 4y ago
  I understand Zelle / irreversible payment situations. But the bank knows who this is, its not an untraceable scam. Why does it survive?
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  • triceratops 4y ago
    Because it could just as easily be a scam in the other direction. Get paid for a legitimate service, have the payment reversed. The bank doesn't want to get involved - easier to treat Zelle payments as if you handed over cash.
• bastardoperator 4y ago
  Zelle is insanely scary. The only reason I use a bank is for protection. If they're going to offer a service and not combat scammers, or protect me, why use it all? Sorry to hear that happened to you, it's even more scary that they knew to target you like that at the exact right time.
  • theturtletalks 4y ago
    I tried to buy a used bike in a new city and the guy wouldn't accept anything except Zelle. I had cash, Venmo, Apple Pay, but nope, this guy was hell-bent on Zelle. When I explained to him that I don't have Zelle and wouldn't create one for a $200 bike, he started to think I was a conspiracy theorist. Zelle has done a great job of creating an image of trust and people equate it to using a credit card without fees.
• arecurrence 4y ago
  The reality is that everyone alive is susceptible to these scams. No human is impervious to being victimized by these groups. They will pay good money for information to target people. Originally, some scammers would aim for early morning hours just as people are waking up, their brains are still groggy and vastly more susceptible to making an error. However, now that so much public information is available you can easily craft scams that are indistinguishable from reality. Scammers leverage this along with a common theme of "urgency" to minimize the time period that someone has to realize they are being taken for a ride. Understanding this, banks have crafted Zelle to pass the responsibility down to the customer. It was a very smart move (from the financial industry's perspective).
• cwkoss 4y ago
  Zelle has all of the downsides of cryptocurrency without any of the upsides
  • winter_blue 4y ago
    Yep, Zelle is a piece of garbage that's hopefully banned soon. I've refused to take or send payments in Zelle, no refuse. I'll refuse to do business with anyone who doesn't take a credit card.