5 ms·

That’s unplanned work. There’s other work needing to be done as well.

ohgodplsno 4y ago
And a sudden fire is also unplanned work, but that's still your work. If this is such a threat, then maybe shift priorities around.
- mynameisvlad 4y ago
  Are we not allowed to complain about unnecessary unplanned work being foisted on us with 30 days notice? That seems like an entirely relevant complaint for this forum but from your first reply, you’re acting like somehow it’s the greatest offense in the world that someone pointed this out.
  - ohgodplsno 4y ago
    Come on, 30 days notice is a walk in the park. Additionally, OP was the one complaining that changing a few URLs and eventually spinning up a new server. It's quite literally a one day or two job, unless you're at a company the size of Amazon (in which case, luckily for you, you're not the only SRE, so it's still just a few days). > The best I can come up with, at the moment, is waiting for each organization to make some sort of announcement with one of "We've paid, don't worry", "We're migrating, here's where", or "We've applied to the open source program". And if organizations don't do that... I mean, 30 days isn't enough time to find alternatives and migrate. This is the original comment. The best they can come up with is... do nothing and wait to see if the smoke turns into a fire ? I've seen better uses of time. 30 days is enough time to find an alternative, migrate _and_ get regular coffee breaks too.
    - mynameisvlad 4y ago
      30 days is nowhere near enough times for people with real jobs that have other things to do rather than drop everything to do this. Once again, completely needlessly. You’re making a mountain out of an entirely valid complaint. Quoting your own profile, stay mad.
    - broast 4y ago
      What if you already have important planned and unplanned urgent work occupying all your SRE'S for the month? On a team or org that's already running thin? Surely you've been there.
      - ohgodplsno 4y ago
        I have. And it was also my job to say to management "hey, there's a very preoccupying fire right there, and it will delay this less important thing. If you're unhappy about it, send me an email explicitly telling me drop the very preoccupying fire." "Everybody has a plan until you get punched in the mouth" also applies to tech.
        broast 4y ago
        I think this thread was started by the manager that has to hear that push back, hence the headaches.
        Dylan16807 4y ago
        Getting punched in the mouth is pretty far from a walk in the park.
    - tsuujin 4y ago
      “Tell me you’ve never worked an enterprise tech job without telling me you’ve never worked an enterprise tech job.” My next 30 days are already accounted for, and will already include disruptions that actually come from the area of work.
      - tetha 4y ago
        Heh. "But shouldn't an enterprise have all of these things figured out and mirrored and also pay money to Docker Inc"? Should? Certainly. But guess what kind of emergencies it takes to get these things finally prioritized and what kinda mad scramble ensues from there to kinda hold it together.
      - ohgodplsno 4y ago
        So, you're 100% booked with no room for anything? Congratulations on your management for understaffing your team and expecting you to do 120% if something happens, they're saving up quite a bit of money. You might want to start respecting your free time though, because they clearly don't give a shit about you.
        Dylan16807 4y ago
        Did you stop reading that sentence halfway through? There's room for disruptions in that schedule. But that room isn't infinite and this is going to add a lot more disruption on top of the existing expected amount.
        tsuujin 4y ago
        They didn’t ask for a perfectly reasonable explanation.
      - yamtaddle 4y ago
        Looks like some of the planned work's getting pushed back a little bit. That's the company paying the price for saving money earlier in exchange for taking on more risk. Decent chance the move was still net-beneficial for them. Either way, it's the company reaping the benefits and paying the costs, not me. It would have been nice and more confidence-generating for Docker to make this a 90-day notice rather than 30, but I'm not going to get upset that some of the work my company wants to do will get done slightly later for reasons having to do with their own penny-pinching and some 3rd party's somewhat-rude notice period for termination of service to entities that aren't even us and who weren't paying them. Job's a job. You want me to fix this and delay some other thing, or let it break and do some other thing instead? Fix it? Cool, no problem.
    - Twirrim 4y ago
      > Come on, 30 days notice is a walk in the park Sure, maybe in a small business or startup, and even then I'd content not quite as easy as all that. When you're dealing with anything larger, say involving multiple teams, organisations, and priorities, 30 days is an insanely short shrift to look at figuring out what your actual route forwards is (and if you're provisioning something new, making sure you're allowed to and have any relevant sign-offs etc.) This particular situation with Docker doesn't affect us, but if it did this would have some serious knock on implications. The teams in my org are already busy with things that need to GA by certain dates or there will be financial implications. It's not "tire fire" but in most cases it's solid "don't waste time" territory. There's always flex in the schedule, but the closer to a GA date you get the more rigid the schedule has to be.
      - Zetice 4y ago
        If you're unable to take on a task that has a 30 day deadline in your org, regardless of size, you're experiencing a good amount of bloat.
        jehb 4y ago
        You're absolutely right! But bloat is also incredibly common, especially when "task" in this case might describe "multi-team project." Can it get done in 30 days? Of course! Might you already have dozens of high-priority projects to deliver in the next 30 days with stakeholders screaming at you every day for updates? Absolutely!
        Zetice 4y ago
        You should read The Phoenix Project to understand that "have dozens of high-priority projects to deliver in the next 30 days" is a consequence of poor management, not a given even for large organizations.
        jehb 4y ago
        I've read TPP. What I'm saying is, most companies are Parts Unlimited before their awakening and a lot of us are Brent. I think the reason that book resonated so well the dysfunction described there is a lived reality for most IT workers.
  - layer8 4y ago
    It’s not like using cloud services without suitable contractual agreements isn’t a known risk?
    - mynameisvlad 4y ago
      Sure. It’s a risk. But that doesn’t somehow make this work expected and planned, not invalidate the original comment. It could have happened at any time. But it’s also been running for a decade now so there’s an expectation that things will continue rather than have the rug pulled with 30 days notice.
- drivers99 4y ago
  Yes, that’s what unplanned work means.
- taikahessu 4y ago
  You’re missing the mark. It’s about risk and expectation management and one the risks just blew up in an unexpected way.
- pantalaimon 4y ago
  If someone were to set my server room on fire, I'd be equally annoyed about them.
- account42 4y ago
  In this case it is entirely planned work: Anyone depending on docker.io chose to make their processes dependent on online endpoints with whose operators you have no business relationship. An unpaid third-party service going offline should be far from unexpected and if you rely on it you better be ready to cope without notice. This is like complaining that you have to put out a fire because rather than fixing the sparking cables you have been relying on your neighbor to put them out before the become noticeable and he only gave you a short notice that he'd be going on vacation.
  - mynameisvlad 4y ago
    > Anyone depending on docker.io chose to make their processes dependent on online endpoints with whose operators you have no business relationship. This does not somehow make the work “planned”. That has a specific definition and this ain’t it. Some people may have called it out as a risk when it was implemented. But that still doesn’t mean it’s planned. Someone may have included an explicit report on how to deal with it at that time. That still doesn’t make it planned. Also, just because it’s known to be a risk and may have a chance to happen in the future does not make it expected either. Nor planned.
- froggit 4y ago
  Yeah, but with a sudden fire there's a good chance there's at least a rudimentary disaster recovery plan lying around to kick things off. How many ppl have a DRP for "docker bends open source over and goes smash?"
ikiris 4y ago
I'm sure docker will happily hold off on this work until you can fit it into your OKR planning next quarter. /s

And a sudden fire is also unplanned work, but that's still your work. If this is such a threat, then maybe shift priorities around.

mynameisvlad 4y ago
Are we not allowed to complain about unnecessary unplanned work being foisted on us with 30 days notice? That seems like an entirely relevant complaint for this forum but from your first reply, you’re acting like somehow it’s the greatest offense in the world that someone pointed this out.
- ohgodplsno 4y ago
  Come on, 30 days notice is a walk in the park. Additionally, OP was the one complaining that changing a few URLs and eventually spinning up a new server. It's quite literally a one day or two job, unless you're at a company the size of Amazon (in which case, luckily for you, you're not the only SRE, so it's still just a few days). > The best I can come up with, at the moment, is waiting for each organization to make some sort of announcement with one of "We've paid, don't worry", "We're migrating, here's where", or "We've applied to the open source program". And if organizations don't do that... I mean, 30 days isn't enough time to find alternatives and migrate. This is the original comment. The best they can come up with is... do nothing and wait to see if the smoke turns into a fire ? I've seen better uses of time. 30 days is enough time to find an alternative, migrate _and_ get regular coffee breaks too.
  - mynameisvlad 4y ago
    30 days is nowhere near enough times for people with real jobs that have other things to do rather than drop everything to do this. Once again, completely needlessly. You’re making a mountain out of an entirely valid complaint. Quoting your own profile, stay mad.
  - broast 4y ago
    What if you already have important planned and unplanned urgent work occupying all your SRE'S for the month? On a team or org that's already running thin? Surely you've been there.
    - ohgodplsno 4y ago
      I have. And it was also my job to say to management "hey, there's a very preoccupying fire right there, and it will delay this less important thing. If you're unhappy about it, send me an email explicitly telling me drop the very preoccupying fire." "Everybody has a plan until you get punched in the mouth" also applies to tech.
      - broast 4y ago
        I think this thread was started by the manager that has to hear that push back, hence the headaches.
      - Dylan16807 4y ago
        Getting punched in the mouth is pretty far from a walk in the park.
  - tsuujin 4y ago
    “Tell me you’ve never worked an enterprise tech job without telling me you’ve never worked an enterprise tech job.” My next 30 days are already accounted for, and will already include disruptions that actually come from the area of work.
    - tetha 4y ago
      Heh. "But shouldn't an enterprise have all of these things figured out and mirrored and also pay money to Docker Inc"? Should? Certainly. But guess what kind of emergencies it takes to get these things finally prioritized and what kinda mad scramble ensues from there to kinda hold it together.
    - ohgodplsno 4y ago
      So, you're 100% booked with no room for anything? Congratulations on your management for understaffing your team and expecting you to do 120% if something happens, they're saving up quite a bit of money. You might want to start respecting your free time though, because they clearly don't give a shit about you.
      - Dylan16807 4y ago
        Did you stop reading that sentence halfway through? There's room for disruptions in that schedule. But that room isn't infinite and this is going to add a lot more disruption on top of the existing expected amount.
        tsuujin 4y ago
        They didn’t ask for a perfectly reasonable explanation.
    - yamtaddle 4y ago
      Looks like some of the planned work's getting pushed back a little bit. That's the company paying the price for saving money earlier in exchange for taking on more risk. Decent chance the move was still net-beneficial for them. Either way, it's the company reaping the benefits and paying the costs, not me. It would have been nice and more confidence-generating for Docker to make this a 90-day notice rather than 30, but I'm not going to get upset that some of the work my company wants to do will get done slightly later for reasons having to do with their own penny-pinching and some 3rd party's somewhat-rude notice period for termination of service to entities that aren't even us and who weren't paying them. Job's a job. You want me to fix this and delay some other thing, or let it break and do some other thing instead? Fix it? Cool, no problem.
  - Twirrim 4y ago
    > Come on, 30 days notice is a walk in the park Sure, maybe in a small business or startup, and even then I'd content not quite as easy as all that. When you're dealing with anything larger, say involving multiple teams, organisations, and priorities, 30 days is an insanely short shrift to look at figuring out what your actual route forwards is (and if you're provisioning something new, making sure you're allowed to and have any relevant sign-offs etc.) This particular situation with Docker doesn't affect us, but if it did this would have some serious knock on implications. The teams in my org are already busy with things that need to GA by certain dates or there will be financial implications. It's not "tire fire" but in most cases it's solid "don't waste time" territory. There's always flex in the schedule, but the closer to a GA date you get the more rigid the schedule has to be.
    - Zetice 4y ago
      If you're unable to take on a task that has a 30 day deadline in your org, regardless of size, you're experiencing a good amount of bloat.
      - jehb 4y ago
        You're absolutely right! But bloat is also incredibly common, especially when "task" in this case might describe "multi-team project." Can it get done in 30 days? Of course! Might you already have dozens of high-priority projects to deliver in the next 30 days with stakeholders screaming at you every day for updates? Absolutely!
        Zetice 4y ago
        You should read The Phoenix Project to understand that "have dozens of high-priority projects to deliver in the next 30 days" is a consequence of poor management, not a given even for large organizations.
        jehb 4y ago
        I've read TPP. What I'm saying is, most companies are Parts Unlimited before their awakening and a lot of us are Brent. I think the reason that book resonated so well the dysfunction described there is a lived reality for most IT workers.
- layer8 4y ago
  It’s not like using cloud services without suitable contractual agreements isn’t a known risk?
  - mynameisvlad 4y ago
    Sure. It’s a risk. But that doesn’t somehow make this work expected and planned, not invalidate the original comment. It could have happened at any time. But it’s also been running for a decade now so there’s an expectation that things will continue rather than have the rug pulled with 30 days notice.
drivers99 4y ago
Yes, that’s what unplanned work means.
taikahessu 4y ago
You’re missing the mark. It’s about risk and expectation management and one the risks just blew up in an unexpected way.
pantalaimon 4y ago
If someone were to set my server room on fire, I'd be equally annoyed about them.
account42 4y ago
In this case it is entirely planned work: Anyone depending on docker.io chose to make their processes dependent on online endpoints with whose operators you have no business relationship. An unpaid third-party service going offline should be far from unexpected and if you rely on it you better be ready to cope without notice. This is like complaining that you have to put out a fire because rather than fixing the sparking cables you have been relying on your neighbor to put them out before the become noticeable and he only gave you a short notice that he'd be going on vacation.
- mynameisvlad 4y ago
  > Anyone depending on docker.io chose to make their processes dependent on online endpoints with whose operators you have no business relationship. This does not somehow make the work “planned”. That has a specific definition and this ain’t it. Some people may have called it out as a risk when it was implemented. But that still doesn’t mean it’s planned. Someone may have included an explicit report on how to deal with it at that time. That still doesn’t make it planned. Also, just because it’s known to be a risk and may have a chance to happen in the future does not make it expected either. Nor planned.
froggit 4y ago
Yeah, but with a sudden fire there's a good chance there's at least a rudimentary disaster recovery plan lying around to kick things off. How many ppl have a DRP for "docker bends open source over and goes smash?"

ikiris 4y ago

I'm sure docker will happily hold off on this work until you can fit it into your OKR planning next quarter. /s