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Framework 12th gen laptop review
- Max-Ganz-II 4y agoI have a 12th Gen. It's the best laptop I've owned. (I've had a Samsung ATIV book 9, and before that a high-end Sony Vaio, both 13 inch). One thing I must mention in particular : the keyboard is die for. I had no idea a laptop keyboard could be like this. I used my Samsung keyboard for many years, perfectly happily - but now I can't use it. It is now so unbelievably flat and lifeless. I am now forever spoiled for lesser keyboards. I worked on power management, not much work was needed, and I get 11 hours battery life on a 90% charge. (Basically, use powertop to figure out what processes were using a lot of power (turned out to be Tor and WINE), and then also realise anything plugged into the USB ports took a lot of power, and finally that the powertop power optimization needed to be re-run after a reboot. That got me down to under four watts, but it means no mouse - mouse adds about three watts, which is too much.) I'm very happy also that reduced battery charge levels (I keep mine at 50% these days, now the power cuts are a thing of the past) are available in the BIOS, and also full battery disconnect (I'd like it even more if I could change battery charge level in software - but the key issue is the functionality is present). I love the exchangable ports - currently I have 2 USB-C and 2 USB-A, which will in time change to 4 USB-C. I also have an ethernet port, should I need it, and HDMI. The screen resolution is not 4K, which I had on my Samsung, and thought before I bought it could be a problem, but it simply isn't. I also love the community. That it's a niche laptop with a highly computer literate community makes it really pleasant. FYI, I'm running XFCE on Debian.
- jancsika 4y agoWhat's wifi like?
- insane_dreamer 4y agoworks well for me
- Max-Ganz-II 4y agoSeems fine. I don't know what the theoretical max is from the router (it's not my router), or the wifi in the laptop, but I've seen 1mb/sec coming down, so it seems to be doing everything it should be doing.
- teruakohatu 4y ago> mouse adds about three watts, which is too much. Have you tried a different mouse?
- Max-Ganz-II 4y agoNo. It's also three watts for a USB stick - I think it's not the device.
- insane_dreamer 4y agoI have one as well, running Ubuntu. ~~Very~~ happy with it. (edit: maybe not "very happy" but "happy") I agree the keyboard is excellent. But the trackpad is crappy -- the one blight on this otherwise good laptop, IMO. Actually, the second issue I have with is the power drain when in sleep mode. Apparently this is fixed on Windows but not Linux. You experience that as well?
- Max-Ganz-II 4y agoTrackpad crappy in what way? It seems utterly normal to me? Yes, the power drain is sleep mode is abnormal - I've read that the USB ports are to blame, and it will be fixed in upcoming firmware.
- insane_dreamer 4y agoGliding is okay, but clicking is not responsive enough, and click-drag is hard to execute (particularly compared to the Macbook).
- Max-Ganz-II 4y agoAh, I understand. Yes, I can see all of that. I don't have trouble with it, but I do know what you mean when you say it :-)
- tomnipotent 4y ago> Trackpad crappy in what way? I like it less than my Macbook, but more than my Thinkpad. Find it just a bit too sensitive, so I'm always accidentally dragging things when scrolling.
- Rebelgecko 4y ago1. The force needed to "click" varies depending on where you put your fingers. Clicks near the top of the track pad take more oomph 2. AFAICT you can't change the scroll speed on Fedora (not sure if that's Framework's fault but still super annoying)
- 4y ago
- starkparker 4y agoThe review makes a lot of hay over needing DP and HDMI cards for a multimonitor setup, but even on Linux the USB-C expansion card supports DisplayPort altmode, MST hubs, and power delivery passthrough on all four ports. Each port has its own Thunderbolt 3 and PD controller. (The DP expansion card is just an altmode pin converter, and the HDMI card is an HDMI-to-DP converter, which is probably why it constantly consumes power.) You might need a dock if the other three ports aren't enough, but you can connect power and two external monitors on one port.
- mixmastamyk 4y agoGreat laptop in general but the glossy screen drives me crazy every day. Instead of focusing on work I'm checking my hair and teeth. :-/ Also the near-necessity of 1.5x scaling is problematic is some situations. In short, the screen is the Achilles heel of this machine.
- kayson 4y agoI would love a 15" framework with the power issues resolved that I can use an egpu with. It would be a great replacement to hauling an SFF pc around.
- qudat 4y agoMy review that I keep updating: https://bower.sh/framework-vs-mbp https://bower.sh/framework-vs-mbp
- ativzzz 4y agoI bought a framework just over a year ago. Honestly I wish I just bought an M1 macbook - it's only a few hundred more and it's a superior laptop all around (I have one for work). Yea I can't put Linux on the M1 but honestly OSX is close enough. The battery life in particular is so good - the fact that I can close the laptop for a few weeks and then open it and it starts up just feels amazing
- Rebelgecko 4y agoI'm moderately irked that after almost a year I still can't use the brightness keys on my laptop (there's technically a workaround that allows them to work, but you have to turn off some of the laptop's other features)
- mixmastamyk 4y agoI use them, think this is what did it: GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="quiet splash module_blacklist=hid_sensor_hub" I seem to have enough sensor values, never noticed that others were missing.
- Rebelgecko 4y agoI think that disables the light sensor unfortunately. I can understand why that's a good tradeoff in many cases but I'd prefer not to.
- redditor98654 4y agoI recently bought a top of the line Framework, 1280p i7 processor and 64GB RAM, 2TB Samsung 850x SSD. But these laptop fans are so loud. Even for non intensive tasks like navigating code in an otherwise idle IntelliJ. Or just watching a YouTube video. CPU for all the 20 cores will hover at 20% but the fans will spin really hard. This when compared to my earlier HP Elitebook 850 G7 - which is basically silent for all these tasks. Performance improvements are there but not sure if I can continue to tolerate the fan noise. My build times for my projects are around 3mins vs 3:30 mins. Seriously considering if I should return it. But I also want to like it.
- IYasha 4y agoSad to live in a world where laptops don't use 18650 batteries. :(
- webdevver 4y ago> This blog post has been maturing for months now. It started in September 2023 and I declared it completed in March 2023 Now thats dedication - a review from the future!
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago> a review from the future! Hope the reviewer also got the sports almanac.
- anarcat 4y agoI did, and Marty, you will be my slave now.
- darthrupert 4y agoThose idle energy usage stats look pretty damned good. If the numbers are correct, they're beating Apple Silicon.
- avidphantasm 4y agoBut only after spending how long tuning things. This is what keeps me on macOS. I’m not a 19yo with time to compile kernels and tweak my XFree86 config anymore. Maybe when I retire in 20 years…
- avidphantasm 4y agoI should mention that I like what Framework is doing and have been tempted to buy one. Don’t mean to take anything away from them. It’s just not for me right now.
- tankerkiller 4y agoIt looks like a lot of the "tuning" was specific to Debian. I did not have any of the issues with things like the touchpad, scaling, etc. with Ubuntu or Pop_OS. And most of the power related tweaks are the same tweaks most people running linux have to do anyway for laptops because the Distro's almost never come configured with the libraries required and setup.
- starkparker 4y agoDitto with Fedora. The 6.y kernel line fixes a lot of problems that aren't Framework-specific but generally Intel and Alder Lake issues. (A lot of those problems, configs, and tuning, even on Debian, aren't relevant on the 11th-gen Framework.)
- input_sh 4y agoIt's author's choice to run Debian on a laptop that provides first-party OS. It'd be like blaming Apple for Asahi Linux issues, but with even less of a substance (at least Debian doesn't have to reverse engineer Pop! OS improvements).
- 4y ago
- formerly_proven 4y ago> consider buying 4 USB-C expansion cards, or at least a mix of 4 USB-A or USB-C cards, as they use less power than other cards and you do want to fill those expansion slots otherwise they snag around and feel insecure > in particular, beware that the HDMI, DisplayPort and particularly the SSD and MicroSD cards take a significant amount power, even when sleeping, up to 2-6W for the latter two > you have to do some serious tuning to get proper (10h+ idle, 10 days suspend) power savings Why is the Framework so much worse at these than e.g. the LG gram series? HDMI, 2x USB-C/TB4, 2x USB-A, micro-SD out of the box, no serious tuning required... > 296.63mm X 228.98mm X 15.85mm, 1.3Kg > Battery: 55Wh Why does such a relatively big and heavy laptop have such a comparatively small battery?
- giancarlostoro 4y ago> Why does such a relatively big and heavy laptop have such a comparatively small battery? I hope they provide a beefier battery.
- graeber_28927 4y agoI don't actually know, but the FW "abuses" splitted thunderbolt connections to get to those features, which I must imagine needs beefier controllers and is more energy intense, than solving e.g. microSD in a more direct/integrated way, without thunderbolt in the middle.
- rowanG077 4y agomicroSD cards are often just using USB that's routed on the PCB.
- tracker1 4y agoI'm frankly surprised that audio doesn't do this, even for more desktop. I'd much rather if desktop case mfg's put a $10 usb dac on the front of the case to a USB 2 header on the motherboard. Would definitely sound better.
- agloe_dreams 4y ago
- t344344 4y ago> Cons the 11th gen is out of stock I really wanted to like Framework laptops. I travel a lot and break laptops frequently. I really liked IBM Thinkpads, was all-in on Dell onsite warranty when it actually worked... But I just got the cheapest MSI Modern. It has ok hardware, 64GB RAM, two SSDs, bunch of ports... Repairability is nice if you actually can get support and spare parts next day. Without that its just a marketing BS. Today laptops are just disposable consumer goods. "Repairability" is a freedom to swap SSD from laptop #12 to laptop #13. Now all I need is a screwdriver and credit card to buy next laptop.
- mschuster91 4y ago> Today laptops are just disposable consumer goods. "Repairability" is a freedom to swap SSD from laptop #12 to laptop #13. Now all I need is a screwdriver and credit card to buy next laptop. Not really, if you're using Bitlocker chances are high that it's tied to the TPM keyset and depending on what's broken it is difficult to recover them.
- doubled112 4y agoThis is a big reason to prefer password based drive encryption, or at least something that doesn't tie the key to your hardware.
- mschuster91 4y agoSadly, impossible to do on modern Apple machines (where the T2 co-processor handles all the crypto), and difficult to do with Windows as Bitlocker uses a TPM module by default [1] if it's available and modern enough. You'd need to manually mess around to disable TPM usage. (Side note, does anyone know if there is a workaround to allow multiple passwords for Bitlocker?) [1] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/information-protection/bitlocker/bitlocker-countermeasures https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/informati...
- bootsmann 4y ago
- fulafel 4y agoIs the suspend and power managment problem a OS independent HW flaw or is there still something to fix in Linux?
- insane_dreamer 4y agothis is the biggest problem I have with Framework. I would not have bought a 12Gen for Linux had I realized it was an issue.
- Rebelgecko 4y agoSome of the power management issues have been fixed semirecently with a firmware update for the thunderbolt controller IIRC
- f_devd 4y agoIt's hard to know for sure without being involved in the development of both sides (the line between new features being unimplemented & hw/firmware being buggy is often blurry), but here is some context: * Linux 5.x does not support most 12th gen power-management/igpu, >6.1 does * According to a few (unconfirmed) sources, there were workarounds required that first came from clean-linux >6.x (intel's linux fork). So most likely it's a mix of new hw breaking existing functionality, and new features not being implemented yet at release
- sourcecodeplz 4y ago30k words but not one picture of the laptop smh.
- re-thc 4y agoA picture is only worth a 1k words. I ask for 30 pictures to make up for it!
- Brajeshwar 4y agoI definitely like to like Framework, but more for experimentation and fun - something I can have that is OK not to be reliable. I might, in-fact, get one just for keepsake but in all honesty, who is the target audience for Framework?
- jna_sh 4y agoFWIW on the reliability front, I’ve used mine as my daily driver for over a year now and haven’t had a single issue.
- mfer 4y agoI'm typing this to you on a daily use machine that's running pop!_os, has a CalDigit hub connected, and is driving two 30 inch displays. My only issues are what I do to myself with my Linux setup.
- Dalewyn 4y ago>who is the target audience for Framework? Linus Sebastian and Louis Rossman.
- cassepipe 4y agoAfter I had to replace all the plastics and keyboard and battery of my laptop, and each time it was a time consuming let's hope I won't break something moment, I decided my next laptop would either super-repairable or super solid. (ie. no brittle plastics) M1 being too expensive + Asahi Linux not being ready, I went for the Framework. Even though the M1 seems like a wonder machine, I would have had to choose the cheapest options with no possible upgrade ever and be satisfied with it. I'd rather spend my money on a company that shares my concerns. Fuck luxury. So I guess I am the audience ? I paid more than what I was willing to spend for it. And works just great. The screen size is a bit small for my taste but hey it's also more portable now.
- ncallaway 4y agoI've been using a Framework as a daily driver on Fedora for over a year. I've had one (pretty minor) issue with the device over that time. The lid spring was slightly lose, and it would slowly close over time when holding it on my lap. They were quick to send a replacement, that was easy to install and totally resolved the problem.
- xd1936 4y agoI'm super excited about Framework as a company. They're doing all the right things imo. Their next product announcement is in ~10 days. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccpsyRipHlk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccpsyRipHlk
- loufe 4y agoI just bought a new laptop, almost went Framework. It came down to size and screen quality for me, given my use case. The one-size-fits-all 13,5 is a little small for my taste, and now that they're available I couldn't justify NOT going with a non-OLED screen. I want modularity, good repairs, the option of a FR-CAD keyboard and I'm okay with paying more, but I'm not willing to sacrifice those other aspects. I hope they catch up in time for my next laptop in >6 years.
- peanuty1 4y agoWow, I wonder why they went with a 13.5" screen size over 14.5" or 15".
- numpad0 4y agoIt appears LCD procurement is one of hardest task in making any consumer devices. Anything else can be bought or outsourced with an email and a payment, but LCD seem to need a connection.
- IYasha 4y agoCommon average. Because some people (like me) prefer 11-12". That size fits every paper bag!
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- tracker1 4y agoPopularity... 13.x" is the most sold. Using an M1 air for my personal laptop, and my work laptop always runs docked at home (thunderbolt). Larger laptop sizes just don't sell as many, though the Framework niche (currently) might be skewed a bit from the general population. Though, would have liked a 3:2 aspect ratio that a handful of laptops have moved to.
- foxandmouse 4y agoWhich one did you end up going with? I’m in the market for a new laptop and as much as I love MacBooks I want to be able to boot into Linux
- pmontra 4y ago> in a bizarre twist, they somehow sent me the URL with the plus (+) signs escaped, like this: > https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Framework+Laptop+DIY+Edition+Quick+Start+Guide/57 https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Framework+Laptop+DIY+Edition... > ... which Firefox immediately transforms in: > https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Framework/+Laptop/+DIY/+Edition/+Quick/+Start/+Guide/57 https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Framework/+Laptop/+DIY/+Edit... > I'm puzzled as to why they would send the URL that way, the proper URL is of course: > https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Framework+Laptop+DIY+Edition+Quick+Start+Guide/57 https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Framework+Laptop+DIY+Edition... In a bizzarre twist the blog software unescaped the first URL (I checked the page source) and turned it into the last one, which I confirmed to work :-)
- anarcat 4y agoyeah the irony... i have just fixed this, i think. i have also just scanned the URLs underneath the left-wise expansion slot and it's still a 404 on my phone.
- Palomides 4y agowhoever designed the SD card module should be embarassed by that sleep power usage, it's totally possible to drop into microamps during idle periods
- varispeed 4y agoI wish there was something comparable to Apple when it comes to performance and battery life. Are there any corporations working on something that could compete with M1/M2 in laptop space?
- yamtaddle 4y agoIt's not just the hardware—it's the software. Apple gives more shits about power efficiency (and general respectfulness toward system resources & maintaining responsiveness) in software than anyone else building major consumer software platforms/ecosystems/operating-systems does. Apple Silicon is indeed near-magical, but iOS and macOS/OSX devices have been beating the competition on UI responsiveness and battery life often while having smaller batteries for years and years, including in the Intel Mac days. I became a convert in part because I was issued an Intel Macbook for work around 2011 and it was the first time I'd ever felt like I didn't need to carry my power brick everywhere.
- solarkraft 4y agoI maintain that most manufacturers just don't give a shit about quality - probably because they compete on price, not user experience. I can't think of any manufacturer that seems to actually care about issues that people who use Apple devices would consider glaring and unacceptable.
- yamtaddle 4y agoIt's why I consider Apple to have no direct competitors, which is a situation that I do not like (as an Apple user!) Nobody else seems to be seriously targeting the exact market segment they do, so if that's the segment you'd like to be in, your choices are Apple, and... that's the entire list. The others are so far off that Apple has a worrisomely-large "mistake line of credit", if you will, against which they may draw (and sometimes do) before reaching the point where switching would be an improvement, rather than just trading one set of problems for an even larger set of problems. Plus, downward price pressure isn't what it might be if they had closer competitors. All of which isn't great.
- netsharc 4y agoThe QR code bit interested me, but the issue he describes has been fixed, you can test it by scanning the QR code on this image: https://yeokhengmeng.com/2021/09/review-usage-and-repair-of-the-framework-laptop/images/fw-certification-logos.jpg https://yeokhengmeng.com/2021/09/review-usage-and-repair-of-... The encoded information goes to a URL shorterner https://fr.mw/[removed_extra_characters] https://fr.mw/[removed_extra_characters] that redirects to a human-readable URL (e.g. guides.frame.work/Guide/Framework+Laptop+DIY+Edition+Quick+Start+Guide/57 ). fr.mw seems to be owned by Framework so the chance of them independently disappearing should be low. And making it a redirect means if they ever do a restructuring of their website, they can just update where the redirect target of the fr.mw link.
- starkparker 4y agoThe line in the review about not bothering to tell them about the QR code issue because they interpreted "filing a support ticket" as corporate codespeak for "throwing the feedback away" is sad, because Framework's tech support is about as thorough and good at following up as I can remember, going back to at least IBM-era ThinkPad days.
- sneak 4y ago> On the downside, there's a bit of proprietary firmware required (WiFi, Bluetooth, some graphics) and the Framework ships with a proprietary BIOS, with currently no Coreboot support. Expect to need the latest kernel, firmware, and hacking around a bunch of things to get resolution and keybindings working right. > Like others, I have first found significant power management issues, but many issues can actually be solved with some configuration. Some of the expansion ports (HDMI, DP, MicroSD, and SSD) use power when idle, so don't expect week-long suspend, or "full day" battery while those are plugged in. Meanwhile, the M2 Macbook Air is $1200 and does run all day (literally 100% more battery than this thing). It's screamingly fast, has a better display, better keyboard, WAY better GPU, insanely better speakers, better proprietary boot firmware, is smaller and lighter, and runs Linux well now thanks to the heroic efforts of amazing hackers. Yes, you must put $3 pigtails on all your USB-A connectors in your home and office (but the upgrade means you can never plug them in backward ever again). Unless you're into masochism or work at Intel, why would anyone buy this machine?
- rejectfinite 4y ago>Unless you're into masochism or work at Intel, why would anyone buy this machine? People dont want/cant run macOS?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- sneak 4y agoUnder discussion in this thread is machines to run Linux. Apple computers are not in any way locked to macOS. "I have to run x64 Windows for work" might actually be a valid reason to buy one of these, come to think of it.
- roughly 4y agoI mean, you’re asking why anyone would buy a pickup truck when a sports car is so much faster and holds the same number of people. I’ve got both, they’re different devices. To answer more directly, though - the Framework is both a hobby and a market signal for me. I wanted a repairable laptop with an OS I can control and I don’t particularly care about the rough edges that come with that. Call it masochism, but that’s pretty much what any hobby looks like in the modern age of plenty.
- shaicoleman 4y agoRegarding the Shipping Trivia section, the "How Overnight Shipping Works" video by Wendover Productions is a good resource to learn more https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3qfeoqErtY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3qfeoqErtY
- jckahn 4y agoAs soon as Framework offers a 3.5K+ touchscreen and DDR5 RAM, I'm in. Without those I'll probably go with another Dell XPS 13 for my next machine.
- al2o3cr 4y ago[flagged]
- e-Minguez 4y agoMeanwhile, they cannot be purchased in Spain :(
- KAMSPioneer 4y agoI also was sad to see this. I'm guessing it has to do with the legal requirements for warranty length...? Last I heard, Spain was one of few countries requiring three years (I think EU requires two). I could be wrong though, as StarLabs offers to send me a StarFighter with only a one-year warranty.
- jeffbee 4y agoThat kernel compile time is pretty respectable. On the top-of-the-line Intel desktop CPU the allmodconfig build takes 11 minutes, twice as fast but drawing 5x the power.
- jonathantf2 4y agoI really like the idea of mine but the terrible battery life in both Windows and Linux make it basically an unusable portable machine. I’ve just ordered a MacBook Pro 14” (even though it was horrendously expensive) and I hope I can eBay the Framework.
- princevegeta89 4y agoAs much as I hate macs or any other Apple products, I admit that the MBP 14 or any mac with the Apple Silicon is simply irreplaceable. I searched to the end of the earth for a comparable Linux or Windows laptop with no vain. If it's Windows (+WSL), then I have to deal with Windows as a platform that I find awful. Adding to that, the poorer battery life and screen, keyboard, touchpad and speaker quality compared to Macbooks. Coming to Linux, brands like Framework haven't seemed like they've fully gotten over the reliability issues as of yet, and the battery life is a huge problem. I took the eventual jump into an M1 Pro MBP 14", and I like every bit of time I spend with it. It's a stellar all-in-one device. The OSX platform is clean, versatile and removes a lot of headaches and manual overhead I would have to deal with if using a Linux desktop from time to time. And the battery? Lasts the entire day.
- jonathantf2 4y agoI'm a Windows admin by day - I tried to daily drive Linux for a while on my main home PC but had issues and ended up just going back to Windows 10 which I've never had any issues with. I (as of the past year) now own an iPhone and AirPods and have been quite impressed with the experience so I'm going in hoping I'll enjoy using macOS - having seen it from my perspective at work (managed without MDM/ABM, hopeless issues) it's been a pretty bad experience but for home use that shouldn't be an issue at all.
- princevegeta89 4y agoTrust me, Windows 10 with WSL is just great in a lot of ways - I just found myself really shooing away Windows as an OS platform, but I also saw that it came a really long way compared to 10 years ago. I would say the hardware on Mac is what takes it the extra mile for now, if Windows laptops end up catching up, it will be an interesting fight to watch.