4 ms·

I like to joke that sometimes it is hard to tell the difference between the mafia and the government, they both demand you give them money in return for protect

by somat 4y ago

I like to joke that sometimes it is hard to tell the difference between the mafia and the government, they both demand you give them money in return for protection. Which is why the government goes after the mafia, they hate the competition.

baq 4y ago
If you think about it, large criminal structures need to become like governments, otherwise they are unstable, so it’s in their best interest to have rules and be fair within themselves. One interesting limit case is what happens if everyone is a member of such a criminal organization? There’s no practical difference between a government.
- influx 4y ago
  And if they grow large enough, they typically start providing welfare to the population, to pacify normal citizens. They even police their bad actors, see the cartel giving up their own in the recent murders of American tourists.
  - stametseater 4y ago
    I don't have personal experience with it, maybe it's all fantasy, but a popular trope in mafia stories is the mafia serving as a parallel or backup government to otherwise law-abiding people. For instance, The Godfather opens with a man, not part of the mob, asking the Godfather for vigilante justice because the American criminal system failed to punish the man who disfigured his daughter.
Eupraxias 4y ago
The bottom-line tangles a weave of right-of-force and rule-of-law.
sixo 4y ago
The difference is the legitimizing force of accountability to the people (at least, in principle.) It's a big difference. Pre-liberalism govts basically were mafias.
soneca 4y ago
Omer Moav mentions in a recent Econtalk episode how you can say that the emergence of the state in human society can be considered the transition from road bandits to organized crime. https://www.econtalk.org/omer-moav-on-the-emergence-of-the-state/ https://www.econtalk.org/omer-moav-on-the-emergence-of-the-s...
- mikeg8 4y ago
  Listened to that episode yesterday and was about to recommend as well, it was fascinating.
mhb 4y ago
The Machinery of Freedom by David Friedman is an exploration along those lines. http://daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf http://daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf
kolbe 4y ago
This is basically the opening scenes of Goodfellas. Henry Hill : [narrating] All they got from Paulie was protection from other guys looking to rip them off. That's what it's all about. That's what the FBI can never understand - that what Paulie and the organization offer is protection for the kinds of guys who can't go to the cops.
BurningFrog 4y ago
Organized crime also routinely work to control government.
gptgpp 4y ago
Wow, I am so sorry... It must be really difficult living in an area of the world where the Government tortures your child, dismembers them with a chainsaw, and dissolves them in a barrel of acid if you don't pay your taxes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lupara_bianca#Examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lupara_bianca#Examples :(
- hnuser847 4y ago
  You act as if governments throughout history haven’t committed atrocities a thousands times more gruesome than this. I’m fact, I can think of a fairly famous example within the past hundred years.
  - gptgpp 4y ago
    Come on, give examples please don't leave me hanging! I think the Mafia are sick fucks, but lots of governments have been too. No shortage of violence in this pit of animals on this stupid space rock. But thousands of times more gruesome than that!? That's wild. I've watched Cartel vids where they slice open and expose the vocal cords laterally as their victims wail, creating otherworldly sounds. But that's like... MAYBE 0.5x as gruesome as torturing some poor helpless child or tossing infant into a barrel of acid. So if you've got stuff that's 1000x as gruesome, I can't even comprehend! Please post.
    - somat 4y ago
      Take china for example, How many families/people/children were tortured and killed when the japanese invaded manchuria. That is an invasion, you may say, it does not count, ok, Now look at how many more than that were tortured and killed in chairman mao's cultural revolution. The scale at which modern governments operate makes all of organized crime look like child's play. The quote "A single death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic" Is particularly apt here.
    - lordnacho 4y ago
      Have you seen those pyramids made of human skulls in Cambodia? I think the scale of the brutality matters a lot, and governments can get bigger scale.
hummus_bae 4y ago
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by somat 4y ago

baq 4y ago

If you think about it, large criminal structures need to become like governments, otherwise they are unstable, so it’s in their best interest to have rules and be fair within themselves. One interesting limit case is what happens if everyone is a member of such a criminal organization? There’s no practical difference between a government.

influx 4y ago
And if they grow large enough, they typically start providing welfare to the population, to pacify normal citizens. They even police their bad actors, see the cartel giving up their own in the recent murders of American tourists.
- stametseater 4y ago
  I don't have personal experience with it, maybe it's all fantasy, but a popular trope in mafia stories is the mafia serving as a parallel or backup government to otherwise law-abiding people. For instance, The Godfather opens with a man, not part of the mob, asking the Godfather for vigilante justice because the American criminal system failed to punish the man who disfigured his daughter.

Eupraxias 4y ago

The bottom-line tangles a weave of right-of-force and rule-of-law.

sixo 4y ago

The difference is the legitimizing force of accountability to the people (at least, in principle.) It's a big difference. Pre-liberalism govts basically were mafias.

soneca 4y ago

Omer Moav mentions in a recent Econtalk episode how you can say that the emergence of the state in human society can be considered the transition from road bandits to organized crime. https://www.econtalk.org/omer-moav-on-the-emergence-of-the-state/ https://www.econtalk.org/omer-moav-on-the-emergence-of-the-s...

mikeg8 4y ago
Listened to that episode yesterday and was about to recommend as well, it was fascinating.

mhb 4y ago

The Machinery of Freedom by David Friedman is an exploration along those lines. http://daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf http://daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf

kolbe 4y ago

This is basically the opening scenes of Goodfellas. Henry Hill : [narrating] All they got from Paulie was protection from other guys looking to rip them off. That's what it's all about. That's what the FBI can never understand - that what Paulie and the organization offer is protection for the kinds of guys who can't go to the cops.

BurningFrog 4y ago

Organized crime also routinely work to control government.

gptgpp 4y ago

Wow, I am so sorry... It must be really difficult living in an area of the world where the Government tortures your child, dismembers them with a chainsaw, and dissolves them in a barrel of acid if you don't pay your taxes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lupara_bianca#Examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lupara_bianca#Examples :(

hnuser847 4y ago
You act as if governments throughout history haven’t committed atrocities a thousands times more gruesome than this. I’m fact, I can think of a fairly famous example within the past hundred years.
- gptgpp 4y ago
  Come on, give examples please don't leave me hanging! I think the Mafia are sick fucks, but lots of governments have been too. No shortage of violence in this pit of animals on this stupid space rock. But thousands of times more gruesome than that!? That's wild. I've watched Cartel vids where they slice open and expose the vocal cords laterally as their victims wail, creating otherworldly sounds. But that's like... MAYBE 0.5x as gruesome as torturing some poor helpless child or tossing infant into a barrel of acid. So if you've got stuff that's 1000x as gruesome, I can't even comprehend! Please post.
  - somat 4y ago
    Take china for example, How many families/people/children were tortured and killed when the japanese invaded manchuria. That is an invasion, you may say, it does not count, ok, Now look at how many more than that were tortured and killed in chairman mao's cultural revolution. The scale at which modern governments operate makes all of organized crime look like child's play. The quote "A single death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic" Is particularly apt here.
  - lordnacho 4y ago
    Have you seen those pyramids made of human skulls in Cambodia? I think the scale of the brutality matters a lot, and governments can get bigger scale.

hummus_bae 4y ago

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