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Emptying the dishwasher with systems theory
- sokoloff 4y agoOne tip I have for dishwashers: use the soap dispenser as your dirty/clean indicator. When you empty the clean dishwasher, immediately fill and close the soap dispenser. As long as you do that, you now have a reliable indicator for everyone of clean (open) or dirty (closed).
- IanCal 4y agoIsn't there a more reliable indicator? That the contents are either clean or dirty?
- graypegg 4y agoDepending on how full you load your dishwasher, that might require you to take out a dirty dish again to check… which strictly speaking, is a little gross for some unknown reason.
- maxbond 4y agoIf you didn't load the dishwasher it can be hard to say if the dishes are clean without being pretty thorough, which can take a few minutes. It would be nice to have instant certainty, I'm going to keep this in mind.
- loeg 4y agoNot on my dishwasher. If the door gets closed, the clean indicator goes off. And my toddler loves to shut the door.
- selcuka 4y agoGood luck teaching such conventions to others, especially children.
- bmelton 4y agoI have a magnet that says "Clean" facing up, and "Dirty" upside down that I bought for $1 in 1998. When the dishes are emptied, or when someone starts the dishwasher, we spin the magnet so that the appropriate side is readable. In hindsight, it is probably the most productive single dollar I've ever spent.
- askvictor 4y agoWe have such a magnet for the dishwasher at work. Problem is that people are unreliable at actually flipping it. I just wish there were a display that would say what the current dishwasher state is.
- bmelton 4y agoIf they don't already exist, there's got to be a market for dishwashers with a built-in clean/dirty indicator. With smart appliances nowadays, it doesn't even have to be a physical display (in the home.)
- londons_explore 4y agoIt's hard for the machine to actually know if it has been unloaded... So many people in an office open the clean machine, remove one mug, and then close it again. Should the machine now show dirty or clean?
- lozenge 4y agoIt should clearly take a photo and blare the warning siren.
- vasco 4y agoThe weight of the drawers is a pretty easy indicator for of it was emptied since last wash. Until it hits empty+10% it's still clean.
- eCa 4y agoAt some stage it will be completely empty[1], so it should be possible to weigh the contents. [1] No readonable person could possibly consider begin to fill it before it’s completely empty, right?
- thedougd 4y agoIf you can’t tell, you’re over rinsing your dishes.
- Thorrez 4y agoYou might have just eaten something dry, and when you put the dish/bowl in the dishwasher all the crumbs fell off.
- thr717272 4y agoHappens in certain offices I work in (I'm a consultant). What I think happens is: Someone puts a number of items in the dishwasher, some of which wasn't used at all, they came back on a trolley from a meeting. Next person comes, checks two cups and think it is clean and than put everything in the cupboard.
- bobbean 4y agoI had a dishwasher at my last place, landlord special and everything. But it was smart, if you did a load of dishes, a little led would turn on saying it's done. The led wouldn't turn back off until the dishwasher was fully closed. So you could open it, be lazy and take a clean fork out, and then close it most of the way, and the clean light would stay on.
- Syzygies 4y agoYes! A magnet is an extra step, off the critical path. One needs to add soap eventually; why not use it as signal? This is the same principle I keep trying to explain to my college: Data should be entered ONCE then sourced everywhere needed. This is my system for my work apartment. My wife rejects it at home, for reasons I don't understand well enough to relay. I go along, I want to stay married. On that theme, why is this post about emptying a dishwasher? The crucial issue in most good marriages is how to load the dishwasher. Emptying is pretty obvious.
- barefootcoder 4y agoUgh, the resistance to such a simple and useful thing drives me nuts. I’ve also used the soap dispenser as an indicator, but I can’t get my wife to do the same or pay attention to the signal when it’s set. Moreover, she half pre-washes everything so I often can’t tell whether they’ve been fully washed or not.
- 4dayworkweek4u 4y ago[flagged]
- jeffreygoesto 4y agoThis is also my experience. My wife just delegates loading to me, I'm less stressed looking at the partially loaded dish washer and we're both happier. Sometimes we cite from [0] to each other and laugh... [0] https://youtu.be/29JPnJSmDs0 https://youtu.be/29JPnJSmDs0
- Mandatum 4y agoHey, heads up - you should probably look into that speaker a bit more. I'm not disregarding everything, obviously there's some truth to what he's talking about - but he's got a very warped view on marriage, relationships and women in general. I won't link anything, but I'll let you look it up yourself. I think a lot of what that video latches on to is typically how our generation, and the generations before us have treated "dealing with problems". I think you'll find younger people will look at this video and go, "what the fuck".
- mrmincent 4y agoGreat idea for 95% of people, but just a reminder if you’re reading this and have a toddler: they are obsessed with dishwashers and will find a way to try and eat that soap. Or maybe it’s just mine. Our dishwasher is shut and turned off at all times, I’m dreading the day our toddler has the finger strength to push the power button on.
- imp0cat 4y agoDefinitely keep the soap away from him, but let him watch you fill it, run it and empty it. Soon he'll get the hang of it and will be more than happy to help you.
- adhesive_wombat 4y agoRemote controlled plug in the socket behind the machine?
- sneak 4y agoBetter yet: whenever you put any quantity of dishes into the dishwasher: RUN IT. The dishes found in the dishwasher will always be clean. Dish soap and cycles are cheap. Storing dirty dishes in the dishwasher is madness. It's literally a machine with a button that makes them clean.
- Jaxan 4y agoThis uses more energy than needed. I only try to run full loads.
- sneak 4y agoRunning my dishwasher twice as much uses much less power each month than 24U of computers upstairs. It's not really that much in the scheme of things. I've run my full size dishwasher with a single cup, single bowl, and single spoon in it. More than once. It's a machine. It's okay to use it.
- skrause 4y agoAh yes, wasting energy is totally okay as long as there is something else that uses more energy.
- eCa 4y agoDirty dishes can be stored inside or outside the dishwasher. I wouldn’t even consider running a dishwasher at less than ~75% load, unless very unusual circumstances. Which is why I, as a single household, don’t use mine.
- kkylin 4y agoOur system too! Glad to see we're not the only ones needing a solution to that problem.
- bombolo 4y agoYou assume you can get everyone in your office to agree with this convention.
- leokennis 4y agoI must run a very disciplined household ;-) Our system is: an open dishwasher can accept new dirty dishes. So if the dishwasher is closed, it's either cleaning (put dirty dishes on the counter) or it's done cleaning. And when you open the closed dishwasher you immediately must transfer all clean dishes to the cabinets. And then it's able to accept new dirty dishes.
- yencabulator 4y agoNewer dishwashers tend to automatically pop the door ajar to help dry contents. I go with that and tend to leave a clean dishwasher ajar. Also helps isolate stinky food items in a closed washer (I've never understood intentionally piling dirty things on the counter, or worse like my wife does, wet in the sink. I do it temporarily while lazy, but I consider that laziness not staging.)
- bpicolo 4y agoMy shins wouldn't survive this
- 88 4y agoPresume they mean ajar, not fully opened
- 2rsf 4y agoClose-yes, Fill-maybe not. Use the dispenser as a marker is a good idea, but it is almost always dump and will ruin you soap. I use tablets which are even more sensitive to moisture, and are expected to stay dry and slowly dissolve in hot water.
- jcutrell 4y agoThis reminds me of another similar system in which a single action means little, but once a condition is met things change: school. I’ve specifically wondered about how sunk cost fallacy plays into these systems. Say you believe that the value of college is only realized once you have a degree. (Oversimplified of course, on purpose.) Purists of rationality might say that it is sunk cost fallacy to believe that you should finish the last class, since you’ve come this far (the sunk cost part). But as this article states, the condition change is the meaningful bit; at what granularity should we measure something like sunk cost? In other words, it’s not irrational to take a final course just to get the credit and finish the degree, even if the course seems useless, because it is a necessary step for the higher level condition change.
- Jtsummers 4y agoSunk cost fallacy would be taking and failing 3 years of college courses and deciding to continue because, "Well, I'm already three years and $30k (or more) in." Being one class or semester shy and making a decision to finish, if it gives a major payoff (starting salaries often jump substantially, some career paths are totally closed without the degree, etc.), is perfectly rational.
- Swizec 4y agoI decided to drop out of college with 2 classes to go. Because a) I had reached my self-imposed deadline, b) I would have to do another full year of college for just those 2 classes[1], c) I was already having to turn away freelancing clients to make time for school, d) you don’t go into debt for college in Europe [1] The classes were in different semesters with a mandatory weekly tutorial/lab presence, which doesn’t transfer across years
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- jbandela1 4y agoOne thing that you can do that will greatly simplify dishwasher management, is to have two dishwashers. There is one clean dishwasher and one dirty dishwasher. You take plates from the clean dishwasher, use them, and put them in the dirty dishwasher. Once the clean dishwasher is empty, the dirty dishwasher is run, and then becomes the clean dishwasher, and the empty one now becomes the dirty dishwasher. There are analogous situations in system design as well.
- thedougd 4y agoI’ve wanted to do this forever but struggle to accept giving up the cabinet space.
- taeric 4y agoHaving a front/back buffer design is interesting to me. I say that as someone that does like the idea of having multiple dishwashers. I don't see myself doing that sort of treatment, though. Building on how I think I'd treat them is closer to a ringbuffer of workers. Would look a lot like the front/back idea in slow use, but I could easily see bursting through to where I have both running at once. And the destination of dishes out is still to the cabinets, for many other reasons.
- askvictor 4y agoThere are a number of designs that have to half-height dishwasher stacked atop each other, so only takes the space of a normal dishwasher, that accomplish exactly this. The only problem is they tend not be as good quality as conventional dishwashers, and you only have half of the usual capacity (which can be worked around in many cases when necessary)
- londons_explore 4y agoSome half height dishwashers are decent. The real trick seems to be to very carefully measure dinner plates - the dishwashers only just fit most plates, and if you put just one plate in that's slightly too large, it blocks the washer jets, and then the whole load comes out dirty and people curse the poor performance of the machine.
- j45 4y agoLoading and unloading a dishwasher was one of the more interesting questions I’ve received in a technical interview. It either shows who thinks about or prefers to do the work up front in loading the dishwasher well to be be able to unload it the quickest. Also helps folks identify if they hate loading or unloading a dishwasher more. Imagining the parallels to tech roles is left here open for your comments.
- mwcremer 4y agoOnce we’ve transitioned into the filling state, we can work as slowly as we want on moving dishes from the counter to the dishwasher, assured in the knowledge that the counter mountain is no longer growing, meaning it will eventually disappear with even the smallest amount of ongoing work. Wouldn’t that depend on the difference between arrival rate and fill rate?
- dwattttt 4y agoAccording to the diagrams, the author lives in a well trained household where dirty dishes created by others are placed directly into the dishwasher, if the dishwasher contains dirty dishes.
- c22 4y agoThis is off topic, but I noticed most of the other comments here seem to be about managing dishwashers, so what the hell... I always thought it would be cool to have a dishwasher that doubled as cabinets.* It could have a slot for dirty dishes and clean dishes could be summoned at any time using a touchscreen. The machine would clean the dishes when necessary and without requiring further intervention (beyond keeping the soap hopper full). If you want to steal this idea for your startup be my guest. You can even sell subscriptions to seasonally-appropriate compatible dishware. * Edit: I see this exact idea is already posted as a comment downthread, so apologies for retreading.
- seszett 4y agoI have to say I never had the problem everyone here seems to have. Starting the dishwasher is a decision we generally take together (and if unilaterally decided, we do tell the others that we programmed it for the night) and in the morning we all know the dishes are clean, and we empty the dishwasher (or hear it being emptied). But more importantly, if the dishwasher is closed, full and not on (or blinking to indicate programmed for the night) then it has to be clean. If it's partially full then it has to be dirty? unless someone is emptying it right now which you would certainly notice.
- konne88 4y agoHaving 4 kids ages 5 and under, while also running a startup, I can confidently tell you that disposable dishes are the true answer to efficient dishwasher management.
- 9dev 4y agoSure, I mean, you're externalising the problem to the environment, but hey - who cares if the VCs keep on pouring money. Maybe start thinking about the world you leave behind for your kids.
- konne88 4y agoThat seems a little strong. We spend like $50/month on paper plates, which are compostable, and I get back many hours of my life that I can use to create valuable experiences with my kids. I don't think that's anymore morally wrong, then say, going on a vacation.
- Jaxan 4y agoBut now you need an efficient waste management system.
- 2rsf 4y agoThis actually became a political issue in Israel- ultra orthodox Jews could easily have more than 4 kids ages 5 and under while their religion forbids them from washing dishes or use electrical appliances on Shabbat (Friday evening-Saturday) so they tend to buy disposable dishes being in conflict with a country trying to be somewhat green.
- TomK32 4y agoOnly vaguely related, but when you fill your dishwasher, put the cutlery sorted into the basket. Thus it's just one grab for the forks, spoons and knives each to take them from the machine into their compartment in the cutlery drawer, no more sorting required.
- jfk13 4y agoI prefer a dishwasher with a shallow cutlery drawer at the top, rather than a basket. It's trivial to slot the cutlery into the tray in groups, where it washes perfectly and comes out tidy.
- mzs 4y agoIt's much easier to sort clean utensils so I do the opposite.
- zamnos 4y agoTotally. The other part about it is, with my lifestyle, I fill the dishwasher throughout the day as I go, so when loading, it's barely more effort to put in into the right basket. Whereas sorting it at the unloading end, you've got to do the sorting all at once.
- johndough 4y agoPartially disagree. Cutlery of the same shape (e.g. spoons) might stick together and not get cleaned properly if they are all in the same compartment.
- entrep 4y agoThe article assumes that the dishwasher needs to be emptied of clean dishes before dirty ones can be put in. This is not the case. The clean dishes will take on the dirty state as soon as dirty dishes are inserted into a machine with clean dishes.
- jnsaff2 4y agoI see what you did there! Your spouse asked you to empty the dishwasher/clean the kitchen for the n-th time and so as a procrastination/excuse you started bikeshedding strategies.
- epanchin 4y agoI’m so confused. I open the dishwasher, if the door is sparkling clean the dishwasher is clean and I empty it immediately. How are people incapable of identifying a finished cycle? Why would dishes pile up on top unless the dishwasher is actually running?
- sundvor 4y ago100%. Entry level Bosch with timer here; I take care to load it efficiently, ensuring rotors are never blocked. I always use the highest temperature setting (70c - I most often run it during the day when powered by PV) along with rinse aid, the good Finish Powerball Ultimate tablets. There's zero mistaking clean from dirty. (I'll also run a special machine cleaner every few months; empty machine with a special detergent. Machine is great when run like this.)
- kingnothing 4y agoMy Bosch is the best dishwasher I've ever had and likely the only brand I will ever use going forward.
- cja 4y agoThis means that you: - always have sufficient time and motivation to empty it immediately when you see that the programme has finished, and - always have sufficient time and motivation to put dirty things in it as soon as you have used them. I'm jealous. Also: https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2022-08-17/ryan-giggs-called-team-meeting-to-tell-family-how-to-load-dishwasher https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2022-08-17/ryan-giggs-calle...
- flybrand 4y agoGreat article. Using household examples to explain theory is very powerful. Along those lines the most recent Goldratt / Theory of Constraints book “Rules of Flow” has a chapter on Thanksgiving dinner preparation, similar to the original ‘Herbie’s Scout Hike’ that is pretty good. https://fredlybrand.com/2023/03/06/goldratts-rules-of-flow-chapter-20-synchronization-thanksgiving-dinner-operations/ https://fredlybrand.com/2023/03/06/goldratts-rules-of-flow-c...
- javier_e06 4y agoIt's 8 am. Kitchen deserted. Sink empty. Dishwasher is off, door slightly ajar, rack full with dishes. No dirt anywhere. Pop-quiz hot-shot. Are the dishes clean or dirty? You pick the first glass. Looks clean. You pick a bowl for you cereal an spot some grime at the bottom. The spoon is questionable..water spots? Answer: Rewash your glass, spoon and bowl and let somebody else handle this.
- yencabulator 4y agoIn this household, the answer is https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B094GB4WV5/ https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B094GB4WV5/ but even that sometimes indicates the wrong thing. Humans are fallible and all. I've been wondering why dishwasher makers don't include a "clean indicator" with a reset button. Automatically set the "green LED means clean" light when a wash cycle completes, pushing the light turns it off, make it obvious enough and you'll likely get 99% compliance.