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Engineers would have made services smarter by themselves, if PMs wouldn't give them new ,,features'' to implement all the time. Top level goals make sense for

Engineers would have made services smarter by themselves, if PMs wouldn't give them new ,,features'' to implement all the time. Top level goals make sense for focusing, but for generally just improving products significantly, getting rid of blockers is what's important.

emodendroket 4y ago
I have my frustrations with PMs like everyone else, and this plan does seem over corrective and destined for failure. But I don't mind having PMs, all in all. I'm not an idea guy, I'm an implementation guy.
- happymellon 4y ago
  PMs are not idea people either. They do not generate worth through ideas and they do not generate worth through implementations. They solicit other people's ideas, count how many votes each idea gets, and passes them to the grunts. They are middle management distilled.
  - f6v 4y ago
    You’re going from OP’s: “I’m not an idea person” to “All PMs aren’t idea people”. This is such a fallacy. It just bothers me how easily some people fall into the trap of wrong generalizations.
    - happymellon 4y ago
      The role of PM is not a creative one, the purpose is bureaucracy to improve the noise/signal ratio.
      - f6v 4y ago
        My experience was different. I had product managers who tried to come up with new features in a very creative way, instead of just collecting requirements from the customers and passing those to developers.
        ryandrake 4y ago
        A lot of people confuse Product Managers with Project Managers. In a typical tech company, the Product Managers are creative roles, come up with ideas, new features, and so on, and ProJect Managers help shepherd these features and projects through the software development process from planning through implementation, testing, and deployment. Totally different roles.
  - SteveDR 4y ago
    What would you call someone who does both? Like at a startup or smaller team
    - happymellon 4y ago
      Both of what?
  - emodendroket 4y ago
    Even if the ideas are not their own, they’re still making a decision about what the product is supposed to do.
- smallerfish 4y ago
  > I'm not an idea guy, I'm an implementation guy. "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." - Heinlein
  - emodendroket 4y ago
    I do lots of different things, but at work I’m getting paid because I know how to make people’s ideas reality and not because I’m deciding what to build, which I’m honestly fairly indifferent to as long as I don’t think it’s outright unethical.
blackoil 4y ago
Or they may decide to rewrite whole thing in Rust, and before that write a new framework to make sure that productivity is optimized, and write a project management tool for it first because current one sucks.
- winrid 4y ago
  This makes developers sound like dumb code monkeys. Devs, especially good ones, can make good products without a PM. A PM can be a nice tool to interface with the rest of the company, Sure.
  - clintonb 4y ago
    Product managers usually help the team by interfacing with the customer, not just the internal company.
    - arlcode 4y ago
      It's awesome if it's working. I had a PM once who listened to Dev feedback and was great at communicating with customers/users. When done correctly priotizing features which are technically boring or seemingly unnecessary is absolutely the right way forward. That person is also in the right position to communicate Dev effort and difficulties back.
  - zeroonetwothree 4y ago
    “I deal with the god damn customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people.”
- Tanjreeve 4y ago
  Yes all software engineers are actually complete idiot's who if left unsupervised will walk around with their trousers on their heads bumping into walls.
  - vanviegen 4y ago
amelius 4y ago
> Engineers would have made services smarter by themselves, if PMs wouldn't (...) Yeah, with abysmal user interfaces.
- zeroonetwothree 4y ago
  Are you confusing PMs with designers/UX? IME PMs are no better at that stuff than engineers.
  - BeFlatXIII 4y ago
    Professional designers + UX do not seem to fare any better.
  - amelius 4y ago
    No, but the PMs know when to call a UX designer.

emodendroket 4y ago

I have my frustrations with PMs like everyone else, and this plan does seem over corrective and destined for failure. But I don't mind having PMs, all in all. I'm not an idea guy, I'm an implementation guy.

happymellon 4y ago
PMs are not idea people either. They do not generate worth through ideas and they do not generate worth through implementations. They solicit other people's ideas, count how many votes each idea gets, and passes them to the grunts. They are middle management distilled.
- f6v 4y ago
  You’re going from OP’s: “I’m not an idea person” to “All PMs aren’t idea people”. This is such a fallacy. It just bothers me how easily some people fall into the trap of wrong generalizations.
  - happymellon 4y ago
    The role of PM is not a creative one, the purpose is bureaucracy to improve the noise/signal ratio.
    - f6v 4y ago
      My experience was different. I had product managers who tried to come up with new features in a very creative way, instead of just collecting requirements from the customers and passing those to developers.
      - ryandrake 4y ago
        A lot of people confuse Product Managers with Project Managers. In a typical tech company, the Product Managers are creative roles, come up with ideas, new features, and so on, and ProJect Managers help shepherd these features and projects through the software development process from planning through implementation, testing, and deployment. Totally different roles.
- SteveDR 4y ago
  What would you call someone who does both? Like at a startup or smaller team
  - happymellon 4y ago
    Both of what?
- emodendroket 4y ago
  Even if the ideas are not their own, they’re still making a decision about what the product is supposed to do.
smallerfish 4y ago
> I'm not an idea guy, I'm an implementation guy. "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." - Heinlein
- emodendroket 4y ago
  I do lots of different things, but at work I’m getting paid because I know how to make people’s ideas reality and not because I’m deciding what to build, which I’m honestly fairly indifferent to as long as I don’t think it’s outright unethical.

blackoil 4y ago

Or they may decide to rewrite whole thing in Rust, and before that write a new framework to make sure that productivity is optimized, and write a project management tool for it first because current one sucks.

winrid 4y ago
This makes developers sound like dumb code monkeys. Devs, especially good ones, can make good products without a PM. A PM can be a nice tool to interface with the rest of the company, Sure.
- clintonb 4y ago
  Product managers usually help the team by interfacing with the customer, not just the internal company.
  - arlcode 4y ago
    It's awesome if it's working. I had a PM once who listened to Dev feedback and was great at communicating with customers/users. When done correctly priotizing features which are technically boring or seemingly unnecessary is absolutely the right way forward. That person is also in the right position to communicate Dev effort and difficulties back.
- zeroonetwothree 4y ago
  “I deal with the god damn customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people.”
Tanjreeve 4y ago
Yes all software engineers are actually complete idiot's who if left unsupervised will walk around with their trousers on their heads bumping into walls.
- vanviegen 4y ago

amelius 4y ago

> Engineers would have made services smarter by themselves, if PMs wouldn't (...) Yeah, with abysmal user interfaces.

zeroonetwothree 4y ago
Are you confusing PMs with designers/UX? IME PMs are no better at that stuff than engineers.
- BeFlatXIII 4y ago
  Professional designers + UX do not seem to fare any better.
- amelius 4y ago
  No, but the PMs know when to call a UX designer.