9 ms·

When I first moved to Sacramento from LA I saw multiple attempts to build high density housing projects seemingly get delayed by neighbors occupying admittedly

by pkdpic 4y ago

When I first moved to Sacramento from LA I saw multiple attempts to build high density housing projects seemingly get delayed by neighbors occupying admittedly beautiful and restrained early-20th century single family homes. Most notably somebody bought and bull-dosed Dimple, an amazing used music / movies / clothing store near the original Tower Records location, with the intention of putting a multistory housing development there. That was years ago and of course its still just a huge crumbling concrete lot fenced in with barbed wire. But since pandemic restrictions lifted we've seen a ridiculous number of 3-5 story housing developments going up all over midtown. It's honestly shocking and so far they look beautiful intermingled with the overgrown trees and houses built in the early 1900s. We've got our problems in Sac but it feels like a vision of the future of California. I hope I start to see this with the same frequency more when I visit the bay.

verisimi 4y ago
[flagged]
- ignormies 4y ago
  It's actually the opposite. The issue with this argument is that denser environments are actually able to serve _more_ businesses -- mom-and-pop markets and niche stores are able to survive. Right now I live a 5 minute walk from two separate grocery stores/markets, a 15 minute walk to 5 others, and a 15 minute bike ride to a number of foreign culture (e.g. Indian, Chinese, Hispanic) stores. More than half of these are family-owned. And that's _just_ for groceries. Every time I visit home in Phoenix I'm reminded of how awful the alternative is: nothing is in walking distance and everything is a corporate big box store. Very few small specialty stores and almost zero family-owned corner stores exist.
- jen20 4y ago
  As opposed to having to drive a car with a clearly visible license plate through a thousand ANPR cameras to buy food from a shitty chain store in a strip mall? I know which of those I prefer...
dalyons 4y ago
What changed to the planning process to make this work all of a sudden?
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  Capital flight. CA (the state) is bankrupt and they need the tax money from these properties.
  - epistasis 4y ago
    What? No. Everything about this short comment is wrong. Wealthy people are staying in California, it's lower income people that can't pay rent and are leaving. The state's finances have had many years of huge surpluses, when these 3-5 stories were being built. This year's deficit is a tiny fraction of the magnitude of 2022's surplus. Second, the state doesn't see any money from new developments. Property taxes fund county and city budgets, not the state. Finally, despite property tax going to local governments that approve or deny housing, increased tax revenue is almost never part of the decision, and to the degree that tax revenue has come up for residential approvals, it's usually a negative because residential housing is viewed as likely consuming more city budget in services than it generates. Instead, government officials fast track hotels, retail, and other types of land use that generate lots of tax revenue.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      Doesn't the state get its pound of flesh from new home sales and resale? I know this can be offset by purchase of a similar home but has anyone calculated how much it is in terms of the state budget
    - pclmulqdq 4y ago
      Do you have a source showing that lower income people are the ones who are leaving or are you guessing? Bloomberg has pretty convincingly argued that it is actually the middle class (the upper-middle class particularly), those who can afford rent and pay the highest tax load to states, who are leaving places like CA and NY. New York has all but admitted that is the case, too: * https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2023-02-16/new-york-vs-florida-how-to-decide-where-to-move-now https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2023-02-16/new-yo... * https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-31/states-with-low-taxes-americans-leave-new-york-moving-to-florida-texas https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-31/states-wi... * https://www.businessinsider.com/new-york-mayor-eric-adams-ceos-bring-workers-back-office-2022-2 https://www.businessinsider.com/new-york-mayor-eric-adams-ce... * https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/nyc-remote-work-eric-adams-softens-stance-on-working-from-home-for-city-employees/4106612/ https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/nyc-remote-work-eric-a...
theluketaylor 4y ago
Got any street view examples? I'm always interested in urban success stories. To me 3-5 stories is the sweet spot for density most cities should be aiming for. You get plenty of people in a given area without it feeling crowded. 3-5 story buildings are among the cheapest to construct since you can use pretty run-of-the-mill techniques and materials to maximize the square-cube law per dollar. It's dense enough to make investment in mass transit really viable without really straining city services like water and sewers. Plus it avoids the "Manhattenification" suburbanities seem so terrified of any time the word density is hinted at.
- bombcar 4y ago
  I've seen convincing arguments that 3-5 stories is also about as far as you can go and still be "connected" to the neighborhood. Anything taller and you might as well be walking through a portal to another world.
  - TuringNYC 4y ago
    Where I lived in Brooklyn, the limit (and most common height) was 12 story. I did not feel any visible difference in "connection" and IMHO connection is more about community institutions which drive the connections. I can give several examples of what I think were the connective tissue of the neighborhood: We had an awesome food cooperative https://www.foodcoop.com/ https://www.foodcoop.com/, a playground, a fro-yo place with outdoor seating, a YMCA, and numerous cafes. These days there is a recreation center. Now, there is a different problem -- housing is expensive. When you have a huge mortgage, you spend more time at work, more time worrying about work, and less time enjoying life. That isnt the fault of the buildings, it is more about restrictive housing policy and multi-decade-ZIRP.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    I like 3-5 story buildings for aesthetic reasons, but my anecdotal experience is that taller buildings don't preclude personal connections: I grew up in a ~16 story building that was built in the 1930s, and had lots of connections with my neighbors, their children, etc.
  - 4y ago
ericmay 4y ago
> I saw multiple attempts to build high density housing projects seemingly get delayed by neighbors occupying admittedly beautiful and restrained early-20th century single family homes. There is plenty of space to build high(er) density housing in Los Angeles if you know where to look [1]. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to fight tooth-and-nail against NIMBY types to build 5 over 1s next to SFH when you've got way better options. This is true for almost every city in America too. Urban infill needs to be prioritized to boost density. Everything else is inefficient at best and wasteful and unnecessary at worst. You cannot have cars and have density. It's a contradiction. [1] https://la.curbed.com/2018/11/30/18119646/los-angeles-parking-lots-total-size-development https://la.curbed.com/2018/11/30/18119646/los-angeles-parkin...
- wahern 4y ago
  CEQA lawsuits come from everywhere, not just neighbors. That's part of why they're so vexatious. Advocacy and lobbying organizations push hard against CEQA reforms as they regularly abuse CEQA to fight developments they oppose for reasons having little or nothing to do with the health of natural ecosystems, or even anything to do with the neighborhood.
Forestessential 4y ago
humans are a migratory species.

by pkdpic 4y ago

verisimi 4y ago

[flagged]

ignormies 4y ago
It's actually the opposite. The issue with this argument is that denser environments are actually able to serve _more_ businesses -- mom-and-pop markets and niche stores are able to survive. Right now I live a 5 minute walk from two separate grocery stores/markets, a 15 minute walk to 5 others, and a 15 minute bike ride to a number of foreign culture (e.g. Indian, Chinese, Hispanic) stores. More than half of these are family-owned. And that's _just_ for groceries. Every time I visit home in Phoenix I'm reminded of how awful the alternative is: nothing is in walking distance and everything is a corporate big box store. Very few small specialty stores and almost zero family-owned corner stores exist.
jen20 4y ago
As opposed to having to drive a car with a clearly visible license plate through a thousand ANPR cameras to buy food from a shitty chain store in a strip mall? I know which of those I prefer...

dalyons 4y ago

What changed to the planning process to make this work all of a sudden?

pclmulqdq 4y ago
Capital flight. CA (the state) is bankrupt and they need the tax money from these properties.
- epistasis 4y ago
  What? No. Everything about this short comment is wrong. Wealthy people are staying in California, it's lower income people that can't pay rent and are leaving. The state's finances have had many years of huge surpluses, when these 3-5 stories were being built. This year's deficit is a tiny fraction of the magnitude of 2022's surplus. Second, the state doesn't see any money from new developments. Property taxes fund county and city budgets, not the state. Finally, despite property tax going to local governments that approve or deny housing, increased tax revenue is almost never part of the decision, and to the degree that tax revenue has come up for residential approvals, it's usually a negative because residential housing is viewed as likely consuming more city budget in services than it generates. Instead, government officials fast track hotels, retail, and other types of land use that generate lots of tax revenue.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    Doesn't the state get its pound of flesh from new home sales and resale? I know this can be offset by purchase of a similar home but has anyone calculated how much it is in terms of the state budget
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    Do you have a source showing that lower income people are the ones who are leaving or are you guessing? Bloomberg has pretty convincingly argued that it is actually the middle class (the upper-middle class particularly), those who can afford rent and pay the highest tax load to states, who are leaving places like CA and NY. New York has all but admitted that is the case, too: * https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2023-02-16/new-york-vs-florida-how-to-decide-where-to-move-now https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2023-02-16/new-yo... * https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-31/states-with-low-taxes-americans-leave-new-york-moving-to-florida-texas https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-31/states-wi... * https://www.businessinsider.com/new-york-mayor-eric-adams-ceos-bring-workers-back-office-2022-2 https://www.businessinsider.com/new-york-mayor-eric-adams-ce... * https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/nyc-remote-work-eric-adams-softens-stance-on-working-from-home-for-city-employees/4106612/ https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/nyc-remote-work-eric-a...

theluketaylor 4y ago

Got any street view examples? I'm always interested in urban success stories. To me 3-5 stories is the sweet spot for density most cities should be aiming for. You get plenty of people in a given area without it feeling crowded. 3-5 story buildings are among the cheapest to construct since you can use pretty run-of-the-mill techniques and materials to maximize the square-cube law per dollar. It's dense enough to make investment in mass transit really viable without really straining city services like water and sewers. Plus it avoids the "Manhattenification" suburbanities seem so terrified of any time the word density is hinted at.

bombcar 4y ago
I've seen convincing arguments that 3-5 stories is also about as far as you can go and still be "connected" to the neighborhood. Anything taller and you might as well be walking through a portal to another world.
- TuringNYC 4y ago
  Where I lived in Brooklyn, the limit (and most common height) was 12 story. I did not feel any visible difference in "connection" and IMHO connection is more about community institutions which drive the connections. I can give several examples of what I think were the connective tissue of the neighborhood: We had an awesome food cooperative https://www.foodcoop.com/ https://www.foodcoop.com/, a playground, a fro-yo place with outdoor seating, a YMCA, and numerous cafes. These days there is a recreation center. Now, there is a different problem -- housing is expensive. When you have a huge mortgage, you spend more time at work, more time worrying about work, and less time enjoying life. That isnt the fault of the buildings, it is more about restrictive housing policy and multi-decade-ZIRP.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  I like 3-5 story buildings for aesthetic reasons, but my anecdotal experience is that taller buildings don't preclude personal connections: I grew up in a ~16 story building that was built in the 1930s, and had lots of connections with my neighbors, their children, etc.
- 4y ago

ericmay 4y ago

> I saw multiple attempts to build high density housing projects seemingly get delayed by neighbors occupying admittedly beautiful and restrained early-20th century single family homes. There is plenty of space to build high(er) density housing in Los Angeles if you know where to look [1]. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to fight tooth-and-nail against NIMBY types to build 5 over 1s next to SFH when you've got way better options. This is true for almost every city in America too. Urban infill needs to be prioritized to boost density. Everything else is inefficient at best and wasteful and unnecessary at worst. You cannot have cars and have density. It's a contradiction. [1] https://la.curbed.com/2018/11/30/18119646/los-angeles-parking-lots-total-size-development https://la.curbed.com/2018/11/30/18119646/los-angeles-parkin...

wahern 4y ago
CEQA lawsuits come from everywhere, not just neighbors. That's part of why they're so vexatious. Advocacy and lobbying organizations push hard against CEQA reforms as they regularly abuse CEQA to fight developments they oppose for reasons having little or nothing to do with the health of natural ecosystems, or even anything to do with the neighborhood.

Forestessential 4y ago

humans are a migratory species.