18 ms·

Trouble with Erythritol

208 points by Metacelsus 4y ago

Metacelsus 4y ago
Note that erythritol is commonly used to "bulk up" stronger sweeteners such as stevia.
- Spivak 4y ago
  And it's not for no reason, it's because recipes rely on the physical properties of sugar (i.e. to aerate butter) not just the sweetness and so a granular sweetener that can be substituted 1-1 by volume is pretty much necessary. Source: I bake for my family members that have diabetes.
  - throwntoday 4y ago
    That is good to know thank you. I always wondered whether stevia could be used as a substitute for sugar in baking for that exact reason.
- nibbleshifter 4y ago
  Its also used as a non fermentable sweetener in brewing to backsweeten stuff without reactivating the yeast.
  - frostiness 4y ago
    This is the primary reason I use it. Time to try out other sweeteners I guess!
- lame-robot-hoax 4y ago
  Good note, just checked the Truvia brand sweetener than I know my parents use. Looks like the packers have erythritol in them.
ravenstine 4y ago
> Now, there have been studies that showed that erythritol is apparently toxic to fruit flies. In fruit flies. Totally irrelevant, and it's stunning the author thinks they can use this to suggest anything about human physiology. Even mammal models of other species can't definitely tell us anything about humans. > But we seem to have spotted a toxic effect now. seem != does > In initial untargeted metabolomics studies in patients undergoing cardiac risk assessment Unfortunately, these are studies evaluating patients who have preexisting cardiovascular conditions, so at most we have correlation and perhaps some causative data specifically for those already at risk for cardiovascular events. Maybe there's something to this, but the tone of this article isn't scientific. > if your clotting behavior is normal to start with, you really, really, do not want to go around activating your platelets. That depends on the degree. Alcohol affects blood clotting, so I guess we'd better not have one sip ever under any circumstance. > That seems to be a risk under normal erythritol consumption, as determined by separate blood level measurements Seems, for those who are already at risk of CVD. It may very well turn out that erythritol increases risk of CVD events in otherwise healthy people, but that's not what any of the data mentioned actually indicates. The only exception may be how erythritol has been observed to affect patelet activation in vitro, but there are many things that seem significant in vitro that aren't medically relevant in vivo.
- legerdemain 4y ago
  I don't understand your facetious and, frankly, spurious attempt to dismiss this report from Derek Lowe. Lowe has spent decades informing lay audiences about pharmacology and biochemistry. A facile dismissal of his reporting as "not scientific" is not a credible counterargument. The core finding, which is what you are ultimately trying to find fault with, is this: In 1,157 patients volunteers undergoing three-year longitudinal evaluation, the patients in the highest quartile of plasma erythritol concentration were very strong outliers for CV events. That correlation holds up after controlling for all sorts of other dietary and physical variables (weight, age, gender, known cardiovascular risk factors, and more). And on top of that, the authors demonstrate a surprising but extremely plausible explanation for these findings: erythritol, in both in vitro and in vivo assays, enhances platelet aggregation.
neuralengine 4y ago
Note that the authors compared blood erythritol level, not _intake_. Erythritol is also a metabolite, which is produced by the pentose phosphate pathway, and has been associated with metabolic dysfunction before. Check out this thread: https://twitter.com/Dr__Guess/status/1630548194907021313 https://twitter.com/Dr__Guess/status/1630548194907021313
- richardhod 4y ago
  Verbatim response to that tweet, from a highly qualified friend with relevant scientific expertise: "idk that critique is pretty dismissive of the actual experimental evidence that they generated in the study… consuming an erythritol sweetened beverage raises the erythritol level in the blood to a level that clearly causes an effect on platelets, and coincides with the difference between the measured levels in the observational study… seems pretty convincing to me".
  - petra 4y ago
    Could you please ask your friend what he would recommend for a sugar substitute ?
    - culopatin 4y ago
      Monk fruit extract, without this stuff mixed in
      - thisisscience 4y ago
        yea, but why? it looks cool and all, but at least sugar gives you nutrients (energy calories).
        KptMarchewa 4y ago
        The problem with modern nutrition is that people consume too much calories, not too few.
canadianfella 4y ago
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kylecazar 4y ago
Another trouble with Erythitol is what it can do to the untrained stomach.
- dwaite 4y ago
  I don't believe erythritol does much of anything to the stomach. Now, if any makes it through the lower intestine without getting absorbed and gets into your colon...
- thisisscience 4y ago
  I think you're thinking of xylitol. ("The study subjects consuming xylitol experienced diarrhea, nausea, and bloating. Those who took erythritol experienced significantly fewer symptoms." -Medical News Today)
voytec 4y ago
One positive information for me here is that I may have a new tool to battle fruit flies which are VERY attracted to organic fertilizers I use to grow in-house veggies.
- galangalalgol 4y ago
  A bowl of wine with one drop of dish detergent has always cleared my house of fruit flies promptly. Gnats (which live in the soil near plants I think?) seem impossible to get rid of short of tossing out all the house plants.
  - uxamanda 4y ago
    You might try watering with diluted BTI (also known as mosquito dunks) for fungus gnats in soil.
    - jonstewart 4y ago
      You can get smaller pellets of BTI, “mosquito bits,” so you don’t have to use the larger donut-shaped dunks.
  - voytec 4y ago
    Wine works well, especially with added fruit peels, but I drink alcohol rarely and most of the wine would spoil. I've seen small bottles of wine in Sweden but not where I live - just these 700-750ml ones. I also drink organic with no added sulfites and these appear to spoil quicker even in the fridge. Gnats and aphids' larvae and eggs appear to be a delicacy for bees. Whenever I put plant pots on a sunny balcony during early spring daytime, I have dozens of bees tinkering in the soil. They also very efficiently clean up the soil and help aerate the roots[1]. Bees are the awesomest living species I know! [1] https://wojteksychut.com/vid/bees.mp4 https://wojteksychut.com/vid/bees.mp4
    - Auracle 4y ago
      I believe I’ve used apple cider vinegar (with the drop of soap) instead.
Semaphor 4y ago
Most other stuff talking about the quality I can find regarding this article seems to be some meme-laden tweets or Instagram Reels. But Medscape [0] has a video with a full transcript, and science media center has interviewed some experts about it. [0]: https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/988721?src=FYE#vp_2 https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/988721?src=FYE#vp_2 [1]: https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-study-looking-at-an-artificial-sweetener-erythritol-and-cardiovascular-disease-events/ https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-study-...
kif 4y ago
Recently I was considering buying some erythritol. Never tried it, but I read it was a good and "healthy" sugar substitute. Now I'm inclined to think that most substitutes won't do me any good. I suppose I'll stick to limiting my sugar and processed carbs intake as much as possible.
- tpxl 4y ago
  My take on fake sugar is, if you use it for weight loss, you've messed up. You'll still crave sugary stuff, and when you don't have fake sugar handy, you'll eat the real thing (in restaurants, etc.). On the other hand, if you don't eat sugar much, you quickly find that apples, oranges and even carrots are actually super sweet, but you it's hard to eat enough of those to gain weight.
  - theshrike79 4y ago
    The best rule of thumb for weight loss I've found out is: Never drink calories. It's really easy to drink hundreds and hundreds of calories with calorie-heavy drinks. It's a lot harder to do the same by eating, fiber in the food tells your body to stop pretty fast.
    - tpxl 4y ago
      On top of fiber, it's just easier to drink than to eat. Mulching 3 whole oranges and drinking them (fiber and all) is still a lot easier than chewing through them. Also, it takes a bit for the fiber filling you up signal to get to the brain.
    - corysama 4y ago
      Decent quality soda water is amazing once you get out of the soda habit. A little lime juice makes the transition easier. And, I love ice lattes. But, on a hot day, iced espresso and soda water is the most refreshing drink I’ve ever had.
      - ars 4y ago
Gatsky 4y ago
Well that leaves aspartame and stevia as the cleanest sweeteners, at least using human data. Thaumatin is another one that should be benign (it’s a large protein, unlike the others), but largely untested.
- cassianoleal 4y ago
  Hasn't aspartame been demonstrated to be a carcinogen? Legit question, I stopped following these developments a few years ago and things were still pretty much in the air then.
  - Karellen 4y ago
    > Reviews have found no association between aspartame and cancer.[5][8][10][27][28] This position is supported by multiple regulatory agencies like the FDA[29] and EFSA as well as scientific bodies such as the National Cancer Institute.[30] The EFSA, FDA, and US National Cancer Institute state that aspartame is safe for human consumption.[7][31] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspartame#Cancer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspartame#Cancer Plenty of citations there if you need to deep dive any further.
    - cassianoleal 4y ago
      Thanks, that's good to know!
- darkerside 4y ago
  What about xylitol?
  - zikzak 4y ago
    I keep seeing things indicating this is good for your teeth (e.g. chewing gum with xylitol) but can't tell if it is astro-turfing or not (on my list of things to research when I retire).
    - 4y ago
lelag 4y ago
I wonder if they considered that heavy consumer of Erythritol, especially in combination to Sucralose might be on average more overweight that the general population. Excess body weight correlation to bad cardiovascular health is well-known.
- checker 4y ago
  RTA. In the article, the author writes the following: That correlation holds up after controlling for all sorts of other dietary and physical variables (weight, age, gender, known cardiovascular risk factors, and more).
techwiz137 4y ago
On the topic of artificial sweeteners, what is the current cutting-edge research on Aspartame and Acesulfame K which is what Coca-Cola use in Europe. And I drink a lot of it.
- voytec 4y ago
  Aspartame is linked to anxiety[1] [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36459641/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36459641/ [1] https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/985861?src=WNL_trdalrt_pos1_221221&uac=413893MK&impID=5015881 https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/985861?src=WNL_trdalrt_...
  - KptMarchewa 4y ago
    Are they controlling for person's weight? As immortal tweet says https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/257552283850653696?lang=en https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/25755228385065369...
    - voytec 4y ago
      My understanding of biochemistry is rather poor but I don't think weight is a factor here: > When consumed, aspartame becomes aspartic acid, phenylalanine, and methanol ― all of which can have potent effects on the central nervous system, the researchers point out. > Extrapolation of the findings to humans suggests that aspartame consumption at doses below the FDA recommended maximum daily intake may produce neurobehavioral changes in aspartame-consuming individuals and their descendants
      - KptMarchewa 4y ago
        I think fat people have much larger anxiety not due to some inherent biological trait but due to society.
  - techwiz137 4y ago
    But not say cancer or the aforementioned cardiovascular risks?
pella 4y ago
Nature article HN comments ( 8 days ago ) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34960947 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34960947
pugio 4y ago
I thought this was a nice analysis of the study: https://peterattiamd.com/more-hype-than-substance-erythritol-and-cardiovascular-risk https://peterattiamd.com/more-hype-than-substance-erythritol.... Since our bodies produce erythritol as part of the pentose phosphate pathway (which is activated heavily by many of the same factors which increase the risk of heart disease), it's possible that high circulating levels in our blood are just a marker/signal of other factors.
qwerty456127 4y ago
Wow that's a bad surprise. I thought eryth erythritol was a perfect sugar substitute. I enjoyed eating a cup of pure erythritol occasionally.
dxuh 4y ago
I have very little knowledge about chemistry and biology, but I have the impression that there is something wrong with almost all artificial sweeteners. Even if there is nothing seriously wrong with them, like with Aspartame, some people still get headaches or similar. I guess that this can't be an accident. Is there a "reason" for it? Why is this such a hard problem to solve, especially since there are gigantic financial incentives for every company that produces sugary goods (which is many - large ones too)?
- marl0 4y ago
  Because sometimes in life... you just can't have your cake and eat it too.
  - thisisscience 4y ago
    [flagged]
- scodger2 4y ago
  Since the article here was published: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070820175426.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070820175426.h..., we have known that the same receptor that artificial sweeteners bind to is also used in the gut to sense sugar. So anything that tastes sweet isn't just tasting, but being used elsewhere in the body to do sugar related stuff. Probably not a great idea to eat and drink things that strongly bind and mess with key sugar metabolism imo.
- credit_guy 4y ago
  > Why is this such a hard problem to solve? Because maybe it's not. Artificial sweeteners are a huge threat to producers of natural sugar, so they worked really hard to get them outlawed, or at least create some FUD around them. For example, did you know that saccharin causes cancer? Right? I certainly heard that as a kid, but it turns out the study that linked saccharin to cancer was done in rats, and involved a biological mechanism that is not relevant to humans [1]. You'd think a study that was refuted should have no legal implications, right? Well, to this day saccharin is not allowed as a food additive in Canada, specifically because of that rat lab study [2]: In the 1970s, scientific studies raised concerns that saccharin could be carcinogenic (cancer-causing) in laboratory rats. As a result of these studies, saccharin was not permitted as a food additive in Canada, although restricted use of saccharin as a table-top sweetener has been allowed. Since that time, further studies have revealed that the carcinogenic effect of saccharin in rats does not have the same effect on humans. Health Canada's scientists have thoroughly reviewed the scientific information available and as a result are considering re-listing saccharin in the Canadian Food and Drug Regulations to allow its use as a sweetener in certain foods. Just look at that: the scientists in Canada are "considering" re-listing saccharin as safe. Now, in 2023, many decades after that study was refuted. I can see the sugar lobbyists getting to their dinners and cigars and still patting themselves on the back for the stunt they pulled half a century ago. Edit: if you think there is no sugar lobby, here's a riddle for you: what is the biggest agricultural crop in the world? It must be one of rice, corn or wheat, right? No, it is sugar cane. As a piece of trivia, the world produces about the same amount of sugar cane each year as steel: 1.9 billion tons. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccharin#Safety_and_health_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccharin#Safety_and_health_ef... [2] https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/food-nutrition/food-safety/food-additives/sugar-substitutes.html https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/food-nutriti...
niffydroid 4y ago
Erythritol, always goes straight through me...
sfjailbird 4y ago
Just some anecdata: I have followed a disciplined keto diet for two-and-a-half years. I eat close to no carbs (apart from fiber). I do, however, like sweet stuff, so I use artificial sweeteners. Lots of them, every day. A mix of stevia, aspartame, sugar alcohols like erythritol, and so on. I have never had an issue with them (that I am able to notice, of course, not saying they can't have some hidden harmful effects). For those saying that they are a slippery slide to eating more real sugar, I don't think so. At this point I recoil at eating anything with real sugar. It is overwhelmingly sweet, it almost burns in the mouth, and later I get bloated and retain water. I believe this is one of the criticisms of artificial sweeteners - that it lowers your ability to clear blood sugar, since you're just not used to having to produce a lot of insulin at one time. Well I don't actually want to eat a lot of sugar ever, so I'm okay with that. I'm almost certain that artificial sweeteners have some bad effects somehow, but the bad effects of sugar are plentiful and obvious, so for now the trade-off makes sense, to me.
- teeray 4y ago
  > At this point I recoil at eating anything with real sugar. It’s amazing what drinking regular coke is like after being off sugar for awhile. I swear the mouth-feel of drinking the syrup they make it with is there.
  - YeahNO 4y ago
    It's hard to give up the black oil, er, soda. I don't really like plain water. I can't take anything with most artificial sweeteners, they are migraine triggers for me. I bought a SodaStream, a 10 lb. bottle of CO2 and a few BiB syrup cases of Barq's Root Beer and have been lowering the concentration of syrup the past few months. I'm down to 1/4 the normal concentration of syrup. Eventually, I should be acclimated to the taste of fizzy water by itself... still not much of a fan.
    - Yahivin 4y ago
      Carbonated water plus orange or lemon peel is great!
thisisscience 4y ago
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- chucksmash 4y ago
  Why make an account to say sugar has been unfairly demonized and share exciting news about high-fructose corn syrup?
  - thisisscience 4y ago
    How cool would that be then? To see it wasn't sugars fault.
- dmix 4y ago
  The coorelation of HFCS being put in literally everything since the 1970s (Campbell's soup contained HFCS until last year, most major bread brands use it, etc) and the explosion in weight gain and obesity in America would be one hell of a coincidence. Chart: https://www.ers.usda.gov/webdocs/charts/58862/findings2_fig01_450px.gif?v=9860.4 https://www.ers.usda.gov/webdocs/charts/58862/findings2_fig0... Between that and growth in sedentary lifestyles you have a pretty good recipe... if the low carb/Keto people are right (and in my personal experience carb sequestration works very well for weight loss and is way more sustainable long term than starving yourself purely for caloric reduction). The obsession with calories by medical authorities (and disinterested doctors) as the go-to solution for weight loss since the 1970s may have served as a massive distraction.
- hummus_bae 4y ago
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stevespang 4y ago
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jshaqaw 4y ago
Erythritol is allowed in food under the FDA GRAS (Generally Regarded as Safe) program. Curious if anyone with knowledge of that program has a view on whether that designation may be at risk which would require a lot more studies before Erythritol can be sold. Also curious if anyone on front lines of retail has seen any impact on customer behavior yet out of this study.
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  My understanding is that GRAS largely is compounds that were in general use before the 50s, and exempted from future research requirements, and newer compounds on the list have been added by interested parties SELF REPORTING a compound as safe, and the FDA mostly takes them on their word.
  - jshaqaw 4y ago
    I think that's the case but wonder what the process is for something coming off the GRAS list. Could cause a big headache for a bunch of companies like Whole Earth Brands who have a lot of capital tied up in Erythritol.
ben7799 4y ago
Amazing how many people are coming out of the woodwork cheerleading Erythritol and artificial sweeteners in general. It is by far the easiest thing to just avoid all of them completely. Use sugar sparingly and stay far away from anything sweetened with HFCS, especially since almost everything sweetened with HFCS tends to contain absolutely outrageous amounts of it. Easy for me, all these artificial sweeteners taste absolutely disgusting. But I'm also one of those people who just doesn't eat much sweet stuff at all other than fruit.
beders 4y ago
From Schwarzenegger's daily email: > Artificial Sweeteners and Heart Attacks: fact or fiction? The nutrition world was set on fire last week when it was reported that erythritol — a popular sweetener used in protein bars and shakes — was linked to stroke and heart attack. There was just one little problem. The study didn’t even test erythritol consumption, so the conclusion made by many in the media (that erythritol causes heart attacks) was very misleading (at best) and a dramatic false alarm (at worst). Here's what you need to know: the researchers examined erythritol levels in the blood. Unlike other substances that only show up in your body if you eat it in your diet, erythritol is naturally produced by your body. And, it increases specifically during stress or body dysfunction. So if you have elevated levels of erythritol, it doesn't necessarily mean you've been having a lot of the sweetener; it could be that you're sick. And that's what makes this study so problematic. The subjects in this study were not healthy. For example, more than 70 percent had coronary artery disease and hypertension. Which bring up an important question: did the consumption of erythritol cause the high levels in the blood, or was it because the subjects very sick and naturally producing more in their bodies? We don’t know because the study didn’t test those variables. To be clear, other studies suggest supplementing with erythritol can led to positive health outcomes. If you’re worried about erythritol, it’s pretty easy to avoid. Simply check the ingredient list. Our take: we need more research focusing on healthy individuals while controlling for erythritol consumption to see if there is an association with disease. But, at this point, it's early to panic based on the findings of the study.
- alostpuppy 4y ago
  What email list is this? Sounds amazing.
  - renewiltord 4y ago
    It's from The Pump Daily but I can't find an archive. This one is listed somewhere else https://ireallyappreciatescience.com/2023/03/07/artificial-sweeteners-heart-attacks-and-terminating-hate/ https://ireallyappreciatescience.com/2023/03/07/artificial-s...
  - kiachnish 4y ago
schwartzworld 4y ago
This reminds me of the data showing that aluminum was present in the brains of alzheimer's sufferers: https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/about-dementia/risk-factors-and-prevention/metals-and-dementia https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/about-dementia/risk-factors-an... If you go on subreddit's like /r/trees (I know, I know), you see the side effect of this information. Lots of people assume that smoking through an aluminum pipe will cause alzheimers, which is _not_ what the data showed. https://old.reddit.com/r/trees/search?q=aluminum+alzheimers&restrict_sr=on&include_over_18=on&sort=relevance&t=all https://old.reddit.com/r/trees/search?q=aluminum+alzheimers&...
kristjansson 4y ago
Just don't eat sweet things. There's no reason to. There's as much pleasure behind sour, or spicy, or bitter, or funky, or savory, or ... flavors.
- ars 4y ago
  You are lucky your tongue is "programmed" that way. Not everyone experiences taste the way you do. For example, by me, if you add even the tiniest bit of sour to the food (lemon juice, or even worse vinegar) that's all I can taste - just sour, there is zero food flavor at all. Drinking wine tastes exactly the same as drinking vinegar. But if I add sugar suddenly there are all these amazing flavors in the food! I tried it with wine, I added a bunch of sugar, and then I was able to taste all these flavors people were telling me were in the wine.
- pacomerh 4y ago
  No reason to?, naive advice, what if you absolutely love it?. It's also hard for me to understand why people would eat certain things but I get it.
twawaaay 4y ago
I have a rule. I try to stay away from eating a lot of stuff very few other people eat a lot of. I don't want to be a guinea pig. I do experiment on myself but only after I can reasonably assume whatever I am consuming is relatively safe, and this means there is sizeable enough population that eats it at same or larger quantities that I plan to ingest. I use table sugar as sweetener. It really isn't that bad for you. A healthy person should be able to eat sweet dessert from time to time with no ill effects (but not every day and not in large quantities). We have pretty good idea of risks of consuming table sugar vs other sweeteners. I do intermittent keto to build and maintain metabolic flexibility. This means there are longs spans of time with very few carbs and definitely no sweetened stuff which are more than enough to wipe out occasional taste of reasonable amount of sugar. I find it is easier and better to just cut out desserts and sweetened drinks and learn to eat proper things for your diet. This whole idea of pretending you are not really on keto and doing keto pizzas, keto breads, keto sweet drinks, keto cheesecakes and so on only makes it feel like you are forcing yourself to eat something that is less tasty than the original. There really is no substitute for real bread, pizza or cheesecake. Doing keto intermittently (say 2 months of keto, 2 weeks off keto) means you can still eat what you want, just not all the time. And it is apparently healthier option because you exercise your metabolism in various ways rather than be permanently on keto.

208 points by Metacelsus 4y ago

Metacelsus 4y ago

Note that erythritol is commonly used to "bulk up" stronger sweeteners such as stevia.

Spivak 4y ago
And it's not for no reason, it's because recipes rely on the physical properties of sugar (i.e. to aerate butter) not just the sweetness and so a granular sweetener that can be substituted 1-1 by volume is pretty much necessary. Source: I bake for my family members that have diabetes.
- throwntoday 4y ago
  That is good to know thank you. I always wondered whether stevia could be used as a substitute for sugar in baking for that exact reason.
nibbleshifter 4y ago
Its also used as a non fermentable sweetener in brewing to backsweeten stuff without reactivating the yeast.
- frostiness 4y ago
  This is the primary reason I use it. Time to try out other sweeteners I guess!
lame-robot-hoax 4y ago
Good note, just checked the Truvia brand sweetener than I know my parents use. Looks like the packers have erythritol in them.

ravenstine 4y ago

> Now, there have been studies that showed that erythritol is apparently toxic to fruit flies. In fruit flies. Totally irrelevant, and it's stunning the author thinks they can use this to suggest anything about human physiology. Even mammal models of other species can't definitely tell us anything about humans. > But we seem to have spotted a toxic effect now. seem != does > In initial untargeted metabolomics studies in patients undergoing cardiac risk assessment Unfortunately, these are studies evaluating patients who have preexisting cardiovascular conditions, so at most we have correlation and perhaps some causative data specifically for those already at risk for cardiovascular events. Maybe there's something to this, but the tone of this article isn't scientific. > if your clotting behavior is normal to start with, you really, really, do not want to go around activating your platelets. That depends on the degree. Alcohol affects blood clotting, so I guess we'd better not have one sip ever under any circumstance. > That seems to be a risk under normal erythritol consumption, as determined by separate blood level measurements Seems, for those who are already at risk of CVD. It may very well turn out that erythritol increases risk of CVD events in otherwise healthy people, but that's not what any of the data mentioned actually indicates. The only exception may be how erythritol has been observed to affect patelet activation in vitro, but there are many things that seem significant in vitro that aren't medically relevant in vivo.

legerdemain 4y ago
I don't understand your facetious and, frankly, spurious attempt to dismiss this report from Derek Lowe. Lowe has spent decades informing lay audiences about pharmacology and biochemistry. A facile dismissal of his reporting as "not scientific" is not a credible counterargument. The core finding, which is what you are ultimately trying to find fault with, is this: In 1,157 patients volunteers undergoing three-year longitudinal evaluation, the patients in the highest quartile of plasma erythritol concentration were very strong outliers for CV events. That correlation holds up after controlling for all sorts of other dietary and physical variables (weight, age, gender, known cardiovascular risk factors, and more). And on top of that, the authors demonstrate a surprising but extremely plausible explanation for these findings: erythritol, in both in vitro and in vivo assays, enhances platelet aggregation.

neuralengine 4y ago

Note that the authors compared blood erythritol level, not _intake_. Erythritol is also a metabolite, which is produced by the pentose phosphate pathway, and has been associated with metabolic dysfunction before. Check out this thread: https://twitter.com/Dr__Guess/status/1630548194907021313 https://twitter.com/Dr__Guess/status/1630548194907021313

richardhod 4y ago
Verbatim response to that tweet, from a highly qualified friend with relevant scientific expertise: "idk that critique is pretty dismissive of the actual experimental evidence that they generated in the study… consuming an erythritol sweetened beverage raises the erythritol level in the blood to a level that clearly causes an effect on platelets, and coincides with the difference between the measured levels in the observational study… seems pretty convincing to me".
- petra 4y ago
  Could you please ask your friend what he would recommend for a sugar substitute ?
  - culopatin 4y ago
    Monk fruit extract, without this stuff mixed in
    - thisisscience 4y ago
      yea, but why? it looks cool and all, but at least sugar gives you nutrients (energy calories).
      - KptMarchewa 4y ago
        The problem with modern nutrition is that people consume too much calories, not too few.

canadianfella 4y ago

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kylecazar 4y ago

Another trouble with Erythitol is what it can do to the untrained stomach.

dwaite 4y ago
I don't believe erythritol does much of anything to the stomach. Now, if any makes it through the lower intestine without getting absorbed and gets into your colon...
thisisscience 4y ago
I think you're thinking of xylitol. ("The study subjects consuming xylitol experienced diarrhea, nausea, and bloating. Those who took erythritol experienced significantly fewer symptoms." -Medical News Today)

voytec 4y ago

One positive information for me here is that I may have a new tool to battle fruit flies which are VERY attracted to organic fertilizers I use to grow in-house veggies.

galangalalgol 4y ago
A bowl of wine with one drop of dish detergent has always cleared my house of fruit flies promptly. Gnats (which live in the soil near plants I think?) seem impossible to get rid of short of tossing out all the house plants.
- uxamanda 4y ago
  You might try watering with diluted BTI (also known as mosquito dunks) for fungus gnats in soil.
  - jonstewart 4y ago
    You can get smaller pellets of BTI, “mosquito bits,” so you don’t have to use the larger donut-shaped dunks.
- voytec 4y ago
  Wine works well, especially with added fruit peels, but I drink alcohol rarely and most of the wine would spoil. I've seen small bottles of wine in Sweden but not where I live - just these 700-750ml ones. I also drink organic with no added sulfites and these appear to spoil quicker even in the fridge. Gnats and aphids' larvae and eggs appear to be a delicacy for bees. Whenever I put plant pots on a sunny balcony during early spring daytime, I have dozens of bees tinkering in the soil. They also very efficiently clean up the soil and help aerate the roots[1]. Bees are the awesomest living species I know! [1] https://wojteksychut.com/vid/bees.mp4 https://wojteksychut.com/vid/bees.mp4
  - Auracle 4y ago
    I believe I’ve used apple cider vinegar (with the drop of soap) instead.

Semaphor 4y ago

Most other stuff talking about the quality I can find regarding this article seems to be some meme-laden tweets or Instagram Reels. But Medscape [0] has a video with a full transcript, and science media center has interviewed some experts about it. [0]: https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/988721?src=FYE#vp_2 https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/988721?src=FYE#vp_2 [1]: https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-study-looking-at-an-artificial-sweetener-erythritol-and-cardiovascular-disease-events/ https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-study-...

kif 4y ago

Recently I was considering buying some erythritol. Never tried it, but I read it was a good and "healthy" sugar substitute. Now I'm inclined to think that most substitutes won't do me any good. I suppose I'll stick to limiting my sugar and processed carbs intake as much as possible.

tpxl 4y ago
My take on fake sugar is, if you use it for weight loss, you've messed up. You'll still crave sugary stuff, and when you don't have fake sugar handy, you'll eat the real thing (in restaurants, etc.). On the other hand, if you don't eat sugar much, you quickly find that apples, oranges and even carrots are actually super sweet, but you it's hard to eat enough of those to gain weight.
- theshrike79 4y ago
  The best rule of thumb for weight loss I've found out is: Never drink calories. It's really easy to drink hundreds and hundreds of calories with calorie-heavy drinks. It's a lot harder to do the same by eating, fiber in the food tells your body to stop pretty fast.
  - tpxl 4y ago
    On top of fiber, it's just easier to drink than to eat. Mulching 3 whole oranges and drinking them (fiber and all) is still a lot easier than chewing through them. Also, it takes a bit for the fiber filling you up signal to get to the brain.
  - corysama 4y ago
    Decent quality soda water is amazing once you get out of the soda habit. A little lime juice makes the transition easier. And, I love ice lattes. But, on a hot day, iced espresso and soda water is the most refreshing drink I’ve ever had.
    - ars 4y ago

Gatsky 4y ago

Well that leaves aspartame and stevia as the cleanest sweeteners, at least using human data. Thaumatin is another one that should be benign (it’s a large protein, unlike the others), but largely untested.

cassianoleal 4y ago
Hasn't aspartame been demonstrated to be a carcinogen? Legit question, I stopped following these developments a few years ago and things were still pretty much in the air then.
- Karellen 4y ago
  > Reviews have found no association between aspartame and cancer.[5][8][10][27][28] This position is supported by multiple regulatory agencies like the FDA[29] and EFSA as well as scientific bodies such as the National Cancer Institute.[30] The EFSA, FDA, and US National Cancer Institute state that aspartame is safe for human consumption.[7][31] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspartame#Cancer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspartame#Cancer Plenty of citations there if you need to deep dive any further.
  - cassianoleal 4y ago
    Thanks, that's good to know!
darkerside 4y ago
What about xylitol?
- zikzak 4y ago
  I keep seeing things indicating this is good for your teeth (e.g. chewing gum with xylitol) but can't tell if it is astro-turfing or not (on my list of things to research when I retire).
  - 4y ago

lelag 4y ago

I wonder if they considered that heavy consumer of Erythritol, especially in combination to Sucralose might be on average more overweight that the general population. Excess body weight correlation to bad cardiovascular health is well-known.

checker 4y ago
RTA. In the article, the author writes the following: That correlation holds up after controlling for all sorts of other dietary and physical variables (weight, age, gender, known cardiovascular risk factors, and more).

techwiz137 4y ago

On the topic of artificial sweeteners, what is the current cutting-edge research on Aspartame and Acesulfame K which is what Coca-Cola use in Europe. And I drink a lot of it.

voytec 4y ago
Aspartame is linked to anxiety[1] [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36459641/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36459641/ [1] https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/985861?src=WNL_trdalrt_pos1_221221&uac=413893MK&impID=5015881 https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/985861?src=WNL_trdalrt_...
- KptMarchewa 4y ago
  Are they controlling for person's weight? As immortal tweet says https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/257552283850653696?lang=en https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/25755228385065369...
  - voytec 4y ago
    My understanding of biochemistry is rather poor but I don't think weight is a factor here: > When consumed, aspartame becomes aspartic acid, phenylalanine, and methanol ― all of which can have potent effects on the central nervous system, the researchers point out. > Extrapolation of the findings to humans suggests that aspartame consumption at doses below the FDA recommended maximum daily intake may produce neurobehavioral changes in aspartame-consuming individuals and their descendants
    - KptMarchewa 4y ago
      I think fat people have much larger anxiety not due to some inherent biological trait but due to society.
- techwiz137 4y ago
  But not say cancer or the aforementioned cardiovascular risks?

pella 4y ago

Nature article HN comments ( 8 days ago ) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34960947 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34960947

pugio 4y ago

I thought this was a nice analysis of the study: https://peterattiamd.com/more-hype-than-substance-erythritol-and-cardiovascular-risk https://peterattiamd.com/more-hype-than-substance-erythritol.... Since our bodies produce erythritol as part of the pentose phosphate pathway (which is activated heavily by many of the same factors which increase the risk of heart disease), it's possible that high circulating levels in our blood are just a marker/signal of other factors.

qwerty456127 4y ago

Wow that's a bad surprise. I thought eryth erythritol was a perfect sugar substitute. I enjoyed eating a cup of pure erythritol occasionally.

dxuh 4y ago

I have very little knowledge about chemistry and biology, but I have the impression that there is something wrong with almost all artificial sweeteners. Even if there is nothing seriously wrong with them, like with Aspartame, some people still get headaches or similar. I guess that this can't be an accident. Is there a "reason" for it? Why is this such a hard problem to solve, especially since there are gigantic financial incentives for every company that produces sugary goods (which is many - large ones too)?

marl0 4y ago
Because sometimes in life... you just can't have your cake and eat it too.
- thisisscience 4y ago
  [flagged]
scodger2 4y ago
Since the article here was published: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070820175426.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070820175426.h..., we have known that the same receptor that artificial sweeteners bind to is also used in the gut to sense sugar. So anything that tastes sweet isn't just tasting, but being used elsewhere in the body to do sugar related stuff. Probably not a great idea to eat and drink things that strongly bind and mess with key sugar metabolism imo.
credit_guy 4y ago
> Why is this such a hard problem to solve? Because maybe it's not. Artificial sweeteners are a huge threat to producers of natural sugar, so they worked really hard to get them outlawed, or at least create some FUD around them. For example, did you know that saccharin causes cancer? Right? I certainly heard that as a kid, but it turns out the study that linked saccharin to cancer was done in rats, and involved a biological mechanism that is not relevant to humans [1]. You'd think a study that was refuted should have no legal implications, right? Well, to this day saccharin is not allowed as a food additive in Canada, specifically because of that rat lab study [2]: In the 1970s, scientific studies raised concerns that saccharin could be carcinogenic (cancer-causing) in laboratory rats. As a result of these studies, saccharin was not permitted as a food additive in Canada, although restricted use of saccharin as a table-top sweetener has been allowed. Since that time, further studies have revealed that the carcinogenic effect of saccharin in rats does not have the same effect on humans. Health Canada's scientists have thoroughly reviewed the scientific information available and as a result are considering re-listing saccharin in the Canadian Food and Drug Regulations to allow its use as a sweetener in certain foods. Just look at that: the scientists in Canada are "considering" re-listing saccharin as safe. Now, in 2023, many decades after that study was refuted. I can see the sugar lobbyists getting to their dinners and cigars and still patting themselves on the back for the stunt they pulled half a century ago. Edit: if you think there is no sugar lobby, here's a riddle for you: what is the biggest agricultural crop in the world? It must be one of rice, corn or wheat, right? No, it is sugar cane. As a piece of trivia, the world produces about the same amount of sugar cane each year as steel: 1.9 billion tons. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccharin#Safety_and_health_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccharin#Safety_and_health_ef... [2] https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/food-nutrition/food-safety/food-additives/sugar-substitutes.html https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/food-nutriti...

niffydroid 4y ago

Erythritol, always goes straight through me...

sfjailbird 4y ago

Just some anecdata: I have followed a disciplined keto diet for two-and-a-half years. I eat close to no carbs (apart from fiber). I do, however, like sweet stuff, so I use artificial sweeteners. Lots of them, every day. A mix of stevia, aspartame, sugar alcohols like erythritol, and so on. I have never had an issue with them (that I am able to notice, of course, not saying they can't have some hidden harmful effects). For those saying that they are a slippery slide to eating more real sugar, I don't think so. At this point I recoil at eating anything with real sugar. It is overwhelmingly sweet, it almost burns in the mouth, and later I get bloated and retain water. I believe this is one of the criticisms of artificial sweeteners - that it lowers your ability to clear blood sugar, since you're just not used to having to produce a lot of insulin at one time. Well I don't actually want to eat a lot of sugar ever, so I'm okay with that. I'm almost certain that artificial sweeteners have some bad effects somehow, but the bad effects of sugar are plentiful and obvious, so for now the trade-off makes sense, to me.

teeray 4y ago
> At this point I recoil at eating anything with real sugar. It’s amazing what drinking regular coke is like after being off sugar for awhile. I swear the mouth-feel of drinking the syrup they make it with is there.
- YeahNO 4y ago
  It's hard to give up the black oil, er, soda. I don't really like plain water. I can't take anything with most artificial sweeteners, they are migraine triggers for me. I bought a SodaStream, a 10 lb. bottle of CO2 and a few BiB syrup cases of Barq's Root Beer and have been lowering the concentration of syrup the past few months. I'm down to 1/4 the normal concentration of syrup. Eventually, I should be acclimated to the taste of fizzy water by itself... still not much of a fan.
  - Yahivin 4y ago
    Carbonated water plus orange or lemon peel is great!

thisisscience 4y ago

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chucksmash 4y ago
Why make an account to say sugar has been unfairly demonized and share exciting news about high-fructose corn syrup?
- thisisscience 4y ago
  How cool would that be then? To see it wasn't sugars fault.
dmix 4y ago
The coorelation of HFCS being put in literally everything since the 1970s (Campbell's soup contained HFCS until last year, most major bread brands use it, etc) and the explosion in weight gain and obesity in America would be one hell of a coincidence. Chart: https://www.ers.usda.gov/webdocs/charts/58862/findings2_fig01_450px.gif?v=9860.4 https://www.ers.usda.gov/webdocs/charts/58862/findings2_fig0... Between that and growth in sedentary lifestyles you have a pretty good recipe... if the low carb/Keto people are right (and in my personal experience carb sequestration works very well for weight loss and is way more sustainable long term than starving yourself purely for caloric reduction). The obsession with calories by medical authorities (and disinterested doctors) as the go-to solution for weight loss since the 1970s may have served as a massive distraction.
hummus_bae 4y ago
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stevespang 4y ago

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jshaqaw 4y ago

Erythritol is allowed in food under the FDA GRAS (Generally Regarded as Safe) program. Curious if anyone with knowledge of that program has a view on whether that designation may be at risk which would require a lot more studies before Erythritol can be sold. Also curious if anyone on front lines of retail has seen any impact on customer behavior yet out of this study.

mrguyorama 4y ago
My understanding is that GRAS largely is compounds that were in general use before the 50s, and exempted from future research requirements, and newer compounds on the list have been added by interested parties SELF REPORTING a compound as safe, and the FDA mostly takes them on their word.
- jshaqaw 4y ago
  I think that's the case but wonder what the process is for something coming off the GRAS list. Could cause a big headache for a bunch of companies like Whole Earth Brands who have a lot of capital tied up in Erythritol.

ben7799 4y ago

Amazing how many people are coming out of the woodwork cheerleading Erythritol and artificial sweeteners in general. It is by far the easiest thing to just avoid all of them completely. Use sugar sparingly and stay far away from anything sweetened with HFCS, especially since almost everything sweetened with HFCS tends to contain absolutely outrageous amounts of it. Easy for me, all these artificial sweeteners taste absolutely disgusting. But I'm also one of those people who just doesn't eat much sweet stuff at all other than fruit.

beders 4y ago

From Schwarzenegger's daily email: > Artificial Sweeteners and Heart Attacks: fact or fiction? The nutrition world was set on fire last week when it was reported that erythritol — a popular sweetener used in protein bars and shakes — was linked to stroke and heart attack. There was just one little problem. The study didn’t even test erythritol consumption, so the conclusion made by many in the media (that erythritol causes heart attacks) was very misleading (at best) and a dramatic false alarm (at worst). Here's what you need to know: the researchers examined erythritol levels in the blood. Unlike other substances that only show up in your body if you eat it in your diet, erythritol is naturally produced by your body. And, it increases specifically during stress or body dysfunction. So if you have elevated levels of erythritol, it doesn't necessarily mean you've been having a lot of the sweetener; it could be that you're sick. And that's what makes this study so problematic. The subjects in this study were not healthy. For example, more than 70 percent had coronary artery disease and hypertension. Which bring up an important question: did the consumption of erythritol cause the high levels in the blood, or was it because the subjects very sick and naturally producing more in their bodies? We don’t know because the study didn’t test those variables. To be clear, other studies suggest supplementing with erythritol can led to positive health outcomes. If you’re worried about erythritol, it’s pretty easy to avoid. Simply check the ingredient list. Our take: we need more research focusing on healthy individuals while controlling for erythritol consumption to see if there is an association with disease. But, at this point, it's early to panic based on the findings of the study.

alostpuppy 4y ago
What email list is this? Sounds amazing.
- renewiltord 4y ago
  It's from The Pump Daily but I can't find an archive. This one is listed somewhere else https://ireallyappreciatescience.com/2023/03/07/artificial-sweeteners-heart-attacks-and-terminating-hate/ https://ireallyappreciatescience.com/2023/03/07/artificial-s...
- kiachnish 4y ago

schwartzworld 4y ago

This reminds me of the data showing that aluminum was present in the brains of alzheimer's sufferers: https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/about-dementia/risk-factors-and-prevention/metals-and-dementia https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/about-dementia/risk-factors-an... If you go on subreddit's like /r/trees (I know, I know), you see the side effect of this information. Lots of people assume that smoking through an aluminum pipe will cause alzheimers, which is _not_ what the data showed. https://old.reddit.com/r/trees/search?q=aluminum+alzheimers&restrict_sr=on&include_over_18=on&sort=relevance&t=all https://old.reddit.com/r/trees/search?q=aluminum+alzheimers&...

kristjansson 4y ago

Just don't eat sweet things. There's no reason to. There's as much pleasure behind sour, or spicy, or bitter, or funky, or savory, or ... flavors.

ars 4y ago
You are lucky your tongue is "programmed" that way. Not everyone experiences taste the way you do. For example, by me, if you add even the tiniest bit of sour to the food (lemon juice, or even worse vinegar) that's all I can taste - just sour, there is zero food flavor at all. Drinking wine tastes exactly the same as drinking vinegar. But if I add sugar suddenly there are all these amazing flavors in the food! I tried it with wine, I added a bunch of sugar, and then I was able to taste all these flavors people were telling me were in the wine.
pacomerh 4y ago
No reason to?, naive advice, what if you absolutely love it?. It's also hard for me to understand why people would eat certain things but I get it.

twawaaay 4y ago

I have a rule. I try to stay away from eating a lot of stuff very few other people eat a lot of. I don't want to be a guinea pig. I do experiment on myself but only after I can reasonably assume whatever I am consuming is relatively safe, and this means there is sizeable enough population that eats it at same or larger quantities that I plan to ingest. I use table sugar as sweetener. It really isn't that bad for you. A healthy person should be able to eat sweet dessert from time to time with no ill effects (but not every day and not in large quantities). We have pretty good idea of risks of consuming table sugar vs other sweeteners. I do intermittent keto to build and maintain metabolic flexibility. This means there are longs spans of time with very few carbs and definitely no sweetened stuff which are more than enough to wipe out occasional taste of reasonable amount of sugar. I find it is easier and better to just cut out desserts and sweetened drinks and learn to eat proper things for your diet. This whole idea of pretending you are not really on keto and doing keto pizzas, keto breads, keto sweet drinks, keto cheesecakes and so on only makes it feel like you are forcing yourself to eat something that is less tasty than the original. There really is no substitute for real bread, pizza or cheesecake. Doing keto intermittently (say 2 months of keto, 2 weeks off keto) means you can still eat what you want, just not all the time. And it is apparently healthier option because you exercise your metabolism in various ways rather than be permanently on keto.