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I splurged for the fanciest dishwasher and it was worth it
- f_allwein 4y agofollow up on the recent dishwasher discussion (1): random review of a Miele dishwasher. (1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35040451 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35040451
- andrewfromx 4y agoThe irony, you really need two. One for clean dishes ready to be used, one for dirty, and do away with cabinets!
- bena 4y agoWhat if you fill the dirty before emptying the clean?
- jareklupinski 4y agoi dont think a person who went with 'two dishwashers' has this problem
- latexr 4y agoI once saw a kitchen in Italy which had a cabinet right above the sink. You wouldn’t notice when it was closed, but if you opened it you’d see it didn’t have a flat bottom but dish racks. So you’d wash your stuff, put them in the cabinet, and they’d dry in there with the excess water falling directly in the sink. I haven’t used the system myself, but the people living in the house liked it.
- frosted-flakes 4y agoThis is apparently very common in Finland.
- latchkey 4y agoJust remodeled my kitchen and I don't have space in my tiny place for a washer. So, I went with Kingsfors shelves system (similar [0]) instead of cabinets and one of the inserts is this drying rack [1]. Ends up serving kind of as a storage system too. Really happy with it. I don't understand why people build cabinets around their shelves... you have to open doors to get at things and memorize where everything is at, which is really not optimal. [0] https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/kungsfors-wall-grid-with-storage-stainless-steel-ash-s49254335/ https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/kungsfors-wall-grid-with-storag... [1] https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/kungsfors-dish-drainer-40371225/ https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/kungsfors-dish-drainer-40371225...
- zymun 4y agoOr, just two sets removable internals, just the racks that fit into an adjacent cabinet/drawer for the clean dishes.
- TYPE_FASTER 4y agoI wonder if people use drawer dishwashers this way.
- sebazzz 4y agoAh, a redundant array of independent dishwashers. I wonder how to abbreviate that... Perhaps RAID?
- drKarl 4y agoI replaced a Hoover dishwasher with a Bosch Serie 8 and there's a huge difference, the Bosch is so much better!
- josefresco 4y ago> My Miele dishwasher cleaned a pot coated with burned caramel. Need I say more? The thought of hardened caramel being melted by my dishwasher, rinsed down the drain and then re-hardening on my pipes and dishwasher internals is enough to give me nightmares.
- buffington 4y agoRest assured. By the time it hits your pipes it's going to be diluted and unlikely to have the characteristics of caramel any more.
- yamtaddle 4y agoOurs is more like the upper-end of non-fancy (it's some Bosch, but not one of the higher-end ones, more mid-range) but damned if the shallow plastic-mesh tray it has at the top isn't something I can't live without now. So perfect for long utensils that're awkward to put anywhere else in the dishwasher (or risk becoming dislodged and blocking one of the spinning water thingies, if you put them elsewhere). It also just barely fits measuring cups, and it's easier to secure them in there than it is to put them on the main trays. It's also one of the many, many nice things on kitchen appliances that could totally be standard on every model if the ones without were just like $10 more expensive, but there's not even an option like that—you have to go move up way more than that in price to find them. Market segmentation in kitchen appliances is such a pain. Like if you just want some of the QOL-improving (but cheap to add) things without bumping up into another whole price bracket for a bunch of shit (or, often, just also-cheap styling options that they're charging a huge premium for) you don't want—you're shit out of luck, no such option, there's no slightly-more-expensive-than-the-cheapest-but-also-pleasantly-equipped model.
- jacobkg 4y agoAgree 100%. The utensils tray is a game changer!
- mdgrech23 4y agoWe really don't have competition anymore. The auto industry is another example of of this. There are only a few players and they all kind of meetup like ok leather only costs us an extra $200 but we're going to put it as part of a package with a bunch of other shit no one cares about and sell it as a 6k add on.
- jacobkg 4y agoWhen we were remodeling our kitchen in 2018, I would ask around to contractors, store sales reps, and others for which appliances they preferred. Couldn’t get anyone to agree on ovens, stoves, washing machines, fridges, or freezers. But every person I talked to recommended a Miele dishwasher. We have been very happy with ours!
- steveBK123 4y agoDishwashers are absolutely an appliance to splurge on. The difference between bottom-tier, adequate-tier and high-end is basically a few hundred bucks. Bottom-tier are loud, don't actually clean dishes well, are ugly, and fail early. Top-tier are near-silent, clean dishes without a pre-rinse, have all sorts of intelligent drawers & racks to fit all your needs, and look great. Some of them even have fancy features like popping the door open when done so the steam vents, etc. Miele or Bosch seem to be the way to go, by far. I am firmly a non-believer in luxury appliances and laugh at what people spend on fridges & ranges for vanity, but dishwashers are an absolute utilitarian efficient splurge.
- jeffbee 4y agoI wouldn't splurge on a luxury fridge either but I wish I understood why there aren't any good ones. I should be able to install the compressor and the rest of it outside. Coils on the bottom of a refrigerator is undoubtedly the stupidest architecture. And having to listen to the compressor isn't great either.
- frosted-flakes 4y agoThat's why variable-speed scroll compressors are great.
- newaccount2023 4y agothere are no "good ones" because "luxury" appliances are basically the same as the cheap ones with a nicer finish or luxury brand name ask ANY appliance repair person...they would howl at the comments here they've told me that people who think Bosch or Miele are "good" are just remembering what they were like twenty years ago and today they are just as likely to fail as Kenmore ask ANY appliance repair person, don't listen to HN on topics like this
- rascul 4y agoDepending on which specific appliance, the Kenmore is probably a Whirlpool.
- V__ 4y agoOne thing to note about Miele's (but not unique about them): It's not trivial to repair them yourself. You need a specialized inductive cable to read error codes and if you don't want to lose warranty, only a certified repair technician is allowed to fix it. Also, the brand itself is getting more 'blurry'. Miele refrigerators are actually made by Liebherr.
- sokoloff 4y agoIn the US, the Magnuson-Moss Act provides significantly more consumer protection than most people think. If you work on a warrantied item and break it, the warranty doesn’t protect you from your own breakage. If you service an item and it has a defect unrelated to your service, the warranty still applies. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act
- avianlyric 4y agoI think it depends on the failure. I’ve repaired a Miele washing machine recently, and found the insides of it wonderfully overbuilt and modular, with every bit of metal bent over to remove sharp corners. It was a real pleasure to work inside of. Far better than the AEG I repaired just before, that was all tightly integrated parts, and sharp edges just waiting to slice you up.
- V__ 4y agoAbsolutely, mechanically the inside is great. Electric errors and problems, might be the challenge.
- techcode 4y agoThat sounds like any (semi)good car in the last 10-20 years. Like 5-6 years old Skoda Octavia (which are generally lasting so long YouTube nickname for them is "Good 'ol miles"). Until one evening you park it just fine in front of your house. And next morning power steering is no longer working. Official VAG dealer/repair shop folks were like "Well you know it's electric stuff like light-bulb - one day it works, and next day you want to turn it on and it goes poof". Except this light bulb is angle sensor, power/hydraulics and T beam "sealed" all-in-one, and costs 1-2K Eur (which was ~10% of whole cars worth).
- Our_Benefactors 4y agoI know at least for Bosch dishwashers, all tiers have the same pump and washing mechanics - you will get pretty similar cleaning performance from any of them. The more expensive models come with more gimmick cycle modes or fancier racks, but fundamentally the same guts that make it “tick”. I know Miele does similarly with their vacuums - they all have the same great suction motor, and come with different accessories and attachments.
- joezydeco 4y agoI've been to the Bosch d/w factory in North Carolina, they also own the Thermador brand and build the appliances side by side on the line. Thermador appliances get slightly thicker metal and hinges, but the same internals.
- j-pb 4y agoThis is quite funny from a german perspective. My first thought when I saw the headline was "oh cool a start-up that disrupts dishwashing, I wonder what fancy overpowered tech they throw at the problem". And then it turns out to be a Miele, one of the common go-to brands for household appliances in Germany. Fun fact: Miele is actually one of the few companies that has technicians that carry a ton of spare parts in their vans, so when you got an issue you just call a number, get an appointment, and then somebody comes by your house and will probably get everything working again in an hour or two. They also carry custom made suitcases with build-in Thinkpads for diagnostics and a tiny desk for writing.
- LazyMans 4y agoThe repair comment is interesting. It seems in the US if you have a warranty claim for an appliance they contract with some generic repairman who has to order parts.
- azinman2 4y agoI just had a Miele serviceman come out recently. Wasn’t a generic person at all. Everything including the truck (and the pricing) was branded Miele.
- LazyMans 4y agoI'm sure it varies brand to brand. Miele isn't scraping the bottom of the barrel for margin.
- slowmovintarget 4y agoBut it is this combination of reliability and quality service that make the dishwasher worth paying for. It's how appliances used to be. You buy one, and it lasts for 20 years, and maybe you need it to be serviced a few times. We bought a Miele dishwasher. We've been able to clear clogs ourselves following instructions. It actually cleans the dishes properly, and the door pops open to allow drying when the cycle completes. Stuff made in China starts going on the fritz. If you get the expensive brands made in China, it means they last one or two years instead of 3 to 6 months. We have a higher-end American brand washing machine (not Miele). It's control panel is starting get squirrely. The machine is fine, but the electronics are starting to fail, and the repair cost for replacement boards is a significant percentage of the cost of the machine. Enough that we'll probably go with Miele when the board fails altogether. If Miele makes a healthy margin, that's good in my book, because they make products that are worth the money. I'm tired of buying cheap disposable crap. I don't want to buy a toaster every year because they burn out every year. I refuse to go through the circus of buying a dishwasher or washer/drier every 5 years anymore. We actively search for products that last, and that have good service. We actively avoid, as far as is possible, products made in China, because the quality, and verification of quality is no longer suitable. Buying stuff made in mainland China, even with an American or European brand-name means that it is cheap in the very short term, and costly in both dollars and time in the long run. If a company can make a profit and not engage in the outsourcing idiocy we've seen in American brands, than they'll get my money, even at a premium.
- whitemary 4y agoWhy is the “average life span" given as a range?
- dsfyu404ed 4y agoBecause it depends on how you use it and your water quality. 10yr for hard users, 20yr for light users. Most people are presumably in between. Edit: On second thought the lower bound is heavy use, the upper bound is probably "we can't guarantee all the rubber won't degrade and leak after this age".
- nickcw 4y agoOur last Miele dishwasher lasted for 11 years. The current one has been going for 10. We are a household of 6 and often set the dishwasher off 2 or 3 times a day so we are probably hard users. As for our Miele washing machine - it is still going after almost 30 years! The main bearing is going so it is VERY LOUD and unfortunately not economic to fix. The Meile tech I asked said the failure mode would be leaking water so I said we'd wait for that. Still doing OK 2 years later :-)
- Eupraxias 4y agoMy repair guy came by last week to fix my Maytag dishwasher. He noted it was ready to be replaced. We are heavy users. This guy has been in his job for over 30 years. He uses a flip-phone, and has encouraged me to do my own repairs on multiple appliances over the years. He is not trigger-happy on replacement. I expressed surprise that the machine needed to be replaced. It was barely 7 years old! I have already replaced the pump, and two washer assemblies. I asked him what the average life span is for a typical dishwasher these days. His answer: 7 years.
- latchkey 4y agoSame with washer/dryers. Everything is plastic parts now and they break and are hard/expensive to replace.
- LazyMans 4y agoSpent the last year searching for a reasonable aged Bosch 300 series or above. Finally found a 3 year old Bosch 500 for less than $200. Good dishwashers are totally worth it, relatively easy to repair, quiet, efficient, and clean well. If I had my pick it would be a mid-high end Bosch, or a Miele.
- Loic 4y agoFor the nerdy side of the Miele dishwashers. The high end ones are running Linux[0] with a boot time of 200ms. [0]: https://www.sysgo.com/press-releases/miele-relies-on-elinos-from-sysgo-for-new-generation-of-household-appliances https://www.sysgo.com/press-releases/miele-relies-on-elinos-...
- trilbyglens 4y agoDamn that's impressive! Wonder if it opens up an ssh port haha
- alexfromapex 4y agoI did the same for a robot vacuum/mop combination and it was also worth it. There's nothing like reclaiming your time from menial chores.
- xnx 4y agoYou guys use more than one bowl?
- Havoc 4y ago>It’s pronounced “Mee-la,” which rhymes with “Sheila.” Now you know. Not quite...closer to Mee-le. There is no prominent A at the end. Never heard anyone German pronounce it that way. See also Miele Germany youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGTCxBwHHMI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGTCxBwHHMI
- chihuahua 4y agoYes, I thought it was funny that the author wants to demonstrate their sophistication by telling their readers how it's pronounced properly, and gets it wrong, thus revealing themselves to be ignorant.
- jnsaff2 4y agoze americans keep pronouncing porsha as well, and being really smug about it
- chihuahua 4y agoAlthough "porsha" is still better than "porch"
- lbutler 4y agoFor those that haven't seen them, the two Technology Connection videos on dishwashers are must watch 1 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04 2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU
- whalesalad 4y agoI had a rental with a really nice Bosch dishwasher and it was truly impressive. Absolutely silent (literally almost couldn't tell it was working) and very well made. Made me a Bosch appliance convert for life.
- kitsunesoba 4y agoA year or so ago I bought a Bosch 800 series to replace the bargain basement model my house came with and it's been great so far. The Bosch's noise level isn't a problem at all despite being practically in the living room (open floor plan kitchen + living room), and the build quality difference between the two was just staggering… The original cheapo was so light I could carry it around on my own all day long, while the Bosch was so much heavier that moving it was a two-person affair.
- techcode 4y agoAfter having various Bosch machines - 4 years ago we got Miele clothes washer and separate drier - with wifi et al. For all the good engineering put into them... I was at a loss at official way to stack two of them. Which is to buy official "add-on" that goes in between the washer (suggested to be at the bottom) and drier (suggested to be above). Attaching that add-on means drilling/screwing into top plate of the machine that's below, with kit including small (superglue size) silicone to seal those new holes.
- DrJokepu 4y agoAs nice as this is, I would not want to wait 6 months for a dishwasher. Give me the cheap LG that will be here next week, I will buy that fancy Miele when they sort out their supply chain issues.
- mherdeg 4y agoOK but how do you know whether the dishes in the machine are clean, or are just "dirty but someone pre-rinsed them enough that they look clean"?
- zwieback 4y agoWe have a US model Bosch dishwasher. As someone who grew up in Stuttgart it pains me to say I don't love it. It's reliability is so-so and the plastic parts on the inside break apart. I'm just going to chalk it up to cost-cutting for the export models but I could be wrong.
- litoE 4y agoThe only thing I miss in my Miele dishwasher is some indicator of whether the dishes inside are clean or dirty. Many a time my spouse will run the dishwasher overnight and in the morning I will, unknowingly, add my dirty breakfast dishes and run the machine again. I've also learned never to wash anything with aluminum: the metal becomes pitted and loses its smooth surface.
- bitcurious 4y agoI did a bunch of research last year, replacing mine. I realized broadly there are three tiers of dishwashers, which each tier basically being the same model with more features turned on. The low end was <$800, these tend to be loud and not as effective. Mid tier was <$1800, these were much quieter and washed well, but were a bit slower in terms of drying, and had a slightly clunkier user experience. Finally here were the ones that are $1800+. They tended to dry more quickly and had smoother open/close/slide feel. I ended up settling on ~$1300 Kitchenaid. It was quieter than my old (cheapo) dishwasher, washes well, and feels nice to use. I recommend visiting a specialty appliance store and physically interacting with the dishwashers. The Bosch ones surprised me by how unpleasant they were to use for their price. The Kitchenaid felt closer to the $2500 ones.
- ariendj 4y agoThe only thing better than a Miele is a Miele Professional. All the benefits of the household models but a lot faster. My PG8081 takes 36 minutes when it's full. That's when it's connected to 230 volts. My friend has the same model running on 380 volt, it takes 21 minutes. In both cases the machines are connected to hot water as solar water heating panels are installed.
- jemmyw 4y agoWe just bought a Miele to replace a Bosch dishwasher. The Bosch was leaking internally and we had to keep draining it out. A technician came to look but couldn't find the problem - he wanted to take it away for 2 weeks. I don't understand why all the seals and tubes can't just be replaced at a service interval. To Bosch credit, they didn't charge for looking at it and it's out of warranty and he was here for hours. We switched because Miele have a much longer warranty and sell direct from their website. We'll sell on the Bosch and hopefully someone with a bit of leak hunting time will get a nice dishwasher for cheap.
- antisthenes 4y agoThis is an ad masquerading as an insightful article. A dishwasher is overkill for a 1-2 person household anyway.
- dmurko 4y agoYou're joking right? Why would I hand wash dishes if I can have an appliance do it?
- antisthenes 4y agoBecause it's actually not faster to do it with appliance?