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Inverted computer culture: A thought experiment
- cat_plus_plus 4y agoThat's more or less how programming is today as opposed to watching TikTok, Gen-Z doesn't have attention span to bother and corporate veterans waste 90% of time debating abstract merits of design concepts rather than getting things done.
- kwhitefoot 4y ago> Computers are seldom privately owned – they are considered essentially communal rather than personal This struck me as true of most people's use of computers now. Almost everyone I know who isn't either an old fashioned developer or a gamer uses a mobile phone or tablet merely as a graphical terminal; the actual computer is some mysterious entity elsewhere on the Net. The golden age of computing when 'everyone' had one of their own that was useable offline is now long past.
- entropicdrifter 4y agoI wouldn't say it's "long past", but rather in its last gasps outside of niche hobbyist communities. There are plenty of people whose primary computer use is still local, they're just considered old-fashioned
- beardog 4y agoLikewise Gen Z and Alpha are not very technical. Many teens and 20 somethings have a hard time with seemingly basic tasks like finding files. As a 20 something myself, my public school did not offer any 'technical' courses beyond office programs and keyboarding.
- brokenmachine 4y agoIn fairness, modern mobile devices seem to be determined to make how the filesystem works as opaque as possible.
- Karrot_Kream 4y agoFiles and folders are based on a metaphor applying to paper-based organizational systems. People used to have typewriter printouts that they used to mark up by pen and place into folders, then file away into filing cabinets. Is there really a need for a filesystem other than in the vestiges of what we consider an operating system?
- Dalewyn 4y agoThis. The "files and folders" metaphor never worked even in the heyday of computer literacy, most people never understood it and just dumped all their crap on the desktop. Seeing as the metaphor did not, does not, and will not work it is only reasonable that personal computing is slowly moving away from it and towards something the users actually want: One singular place to store everything (and I mean everything) and a one-stop quick way to find something in there, organization be damned. Email is perhaps one of the earliest manifestations of this user desire: Everything goes in the one singular Inbox, and you search for whatever mail you need.
- brokenmachine 4y agoI prefer being able to find stuff. Tags or folders, I don't care. But I need some kind of organization. A giant pile with a crappy search box that hardly works does not cut it.
- Dalewyn 4y ago>Tags or folders, I don't care. My point exactly. The people who cry that the young today can't file-and-folder fail to understand bloody nobody, neither young nor old, cares for file-and-folder.
- Dylan16807 4y agoThe problem is that mobile devices lack competent tagging on most things and don't let you organize with folders either. And folders are a very simple concept. If you can't handle them on a system that uses them, that's bad.
- moffkalast 4y agoEach generation consists of roughly 90% of people who are completely clueless about anything computer related. Those of us that work in the field usually can't even conceive of it but it's true.
- beardog 4y agoIndeed, you could say the same about cars and plumbing too (with some variation in %). People tend to think younger people are automatically 'good at computers' though.
- nh23423fefe 4y agoThis kind of speculative fiction doesn't work. Usually the template is described as: take some part of the world and tweak it and then press play and see what the world looks like now. Instead this is just "invert some part of culture" which makes no sense. Culture is the emergent externalized collective intelligence of social creatures. You can't invent a culture which would preserve this property without asserting a global belief in the community isomorphic to the alteration. You haven't altered the culture. You'd just asserted a group of unthinking zombies. So when I read: > Imagine a world where computers are inherently old. Whatever you do with them is automatically seen as practice of an ancient and unchanging tradition. Even though new discoveries do happen, they cannot dispel the aura of oldness. I can't conceive of such a world. Its incoherent. I also can't imagine a world where no one likes metals for whatever reason. You can't just assert a fact like that and press play. It's nonsensical.
- tobr 4y agoImagine a world where you can just assert any fact as the starting point of speculative fiction. Then imagine that someone would write a piece where computers were inherently old.
- andai 4y agoExpert prompt crafting!
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- shagie 4y agoA sci-fi magazine has cut off submissions after a flood of AI-generated stories - https://www.npr.org/2023/02/24/1159286436/ai-chatbot-chatgpt-magazine-clarkesworld-artificial-intelligence https://www.npr.org/2023/02/24/1159286436/ai-chatbot-chatgpt... > The science fiction and fantasy magazine Clarkesworld has been forced to stop accepting any new submissions from writers after it was bombarded with what it says were AI-generated stories. > The magazine officially shut off submissions on February 20 after a surge in stories that publisher and editor-in-chief Neil Clarke says were clearly machine-written.
- grrdotcloud 4y agoI am not sure when it happened but I discovered that every game I played over the last twenty years, reduced to it's bare minimum functional components, was aligning a pointer on an X/Y axis and pressing the correct button within a time window. The goal of computers, reduction or multiplication of work, is often lost because the output does not last longer that the work required to generate. Computers are tools. They are used as toys, or at best, substitution of physical activities. Thankfully I only print paper twice a year. Yet why at all? Clearly I'm trusted enough to enter into a contract with companies yet can't be trusted to complete trivial tasks like sending a package without paperwork. I'm curious if we reserved computers for qualified owners and operators like firearms or vehicles. I personally would love to operate one but without certification or training the ability to have negative impact upon the population or needless self harm outweighs the enjoyment of <current popular social media app> I started driving at ten. I was also a teen with unfiltered internet over dial up but that isn't the same as personalized curated streaming video aligned to my habits or an exploitative corporate/State. If we can not determine when we're getting manipulated, can not agree on what truth is nor speak against the authority without being labeled an enemy how we can adapt as a people to the growing power of computers in every pocket?
- alar44 4y ago[dead]
- pbhjpbhj 4y agoSports are just a series of muscle contractions with timing; music is just different accelerations of the air; ... I think these statements, and yours concerning video games, are overly reductive.
- xboxnolifes 4y agoLife is just a sequence of body movements to position into the correct shape for various contexts.
- thriftwy 4y ago> aligning a pointer on an X/Y axis and pressing the correct button within a time window Heroes of Might and Magic III are somewhat older than 20 years but they are super different than that.
- satisfice 4y agoThis is a story, not a thought experiment. To be an experiment there must be some sort of question to explore, after specifying some sort of condition. This is a set of assertions from beginning to end.
- brazzy 4y agoAnd half the assertions are at odds with what computers are and can do rather than just our culture around them.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- pmayrgundter 4y agoReminds me of Kurzweil's Age of Spiritual Machines
- lambdaloop 4y agoAll the comments here are so negative for such a beautiful essay! This paragraph at the end in particular really struck a chord with me: > In the real world, people associate computers with many different things: corporate dehumanization, overwhelming consumer capitalism, alienation from the material world, shortened attention spans, ridiculously short obsolescence cycles, etc. etc. It is often difficult to tell these cultural biases apart from the "essence" or computing, and it is even more difficult to envision alternatives due to the lack of diversity. Thought experiments like this may be helpful for widening the perspective. Computing is a fundamental part of the world and crazy exciting to play around with. It allows us to experience whole new spectrums of reality! At its core, isn't this the essence of the hacker ethos?
- rektide 4y agoStrongly agree! This post so wonderfully blends a hypothetical with where we really are, what computing has in fact become. Computiung is in fact vanishing, hidden inside massive data centers (temples) & behind firewalls. Applications offer packaged consumer experiences, but actual computing recedes, gets further off, & few people experience it. Real connection to computing is slow & takes concentration & will to develop; it's not fast. This project to invert common conceptions actually reveals a lot of truth. The final summation is great. > So, what is the "essence" of computing then? I'd say universality. The universality of computing makes it possible to bend it to reflect and amplify just about any kind of ideology or cultural construct.
- agiacalone 4y agoI’m with you. I really liked the essay, and I also particularly like speculative fiction.
- didgetmaster 4y agoI would just be happy if the circuit board in my furnace would last longer than 5 years and wouldn't cost 10x more to replace than it probably should.
- anthk 4y ago[flagged]
- TeMPOraL 4y ago> Embrace utilitarism. As long as everyone else embraces it, we seem to be doomed to a market economy, that (all its virtues notwithstanding) unfortunately makes: > Design durable, low powered and hackable computers with easy protocols to exchange data over a flakey network not possible. As long as other people also take utilitarian approach, then the only things we can get are "low powered" and "flakey network". Durability, hackability and easy protocols are anathema to those who make money on technology at scale.
- nayuki 4y ago> It is commonly thought to be futile to even try to make youngsters interested in computers – they simply don't yet have the required patience or concentration. There's no addictivity or instant gratification, nothing flashy or punk that fascinates the young mind. The appreciation and understanding of computers is something that develops slowly over years, often via gateway interests such as [...] pure mathematics. The kind of people who want to settle in a monastery and dedicate their lives to science or art may also develop an interest in computing. This part is already true about the study of theoretical computer science today. People view algorithm design, big-O, proofs, recursion, automata, Turing machines, etc. as a chore.
- twelvechairs 4y agoReplace 'computers' with 'open source software' and you are something closer to an uncomfortable truth. Open source has been critical to the advancement of our world but people who go out of their way to use and encourage open source past the basics (even fdroid or Firefox not even getting to hardware and full software stacks) are treated as oddballs even by the tech community.
- forgetfreeman 4y agoPlease enumerate the demonstrable advancements of society attributable to open source software. Edit: lots of downvotes, no credible responses. Guess y'all are stewing in your own cognitive dissonance?
- guhidalg 4y agoOk so gcc and Linux don’t exist in your world.
- eikenberry 4y agoOr the internet.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- forgetfreeman 4y agoClaiming the internet is a net advance for society is a pretty hard sell in the face of the dissolution of critical institutions, proliferation of mental heath issues, and hyper-concentration of wealth it has made possible.
- _aavaa_ 4y agoThese critical institutions you speak of, they were not here since the beginning of time nor will they be here till the end of time. Blaming “the internet” for their dissolution is implicit assuming that they should have continued in their current form (just to begin listing the claims that are hard to sell). Further, hyper-concentration of wealth is not something “made possible” by the internet. These problems existed before it and will continue existing. Because, if they are any problem at all, they are a social one.
- mikewarot 4y agoI've watched over time as the desktop stopped being the primary computing device of choice for many people. I've grown far too accustomed to the power and flexibility of a nice keyboard and 32" monitor, and virtually endless storage and general purpose compute that I own to fall into that usage pattern, but I understand the appeal. No Wednesday morning headaches from Microsoft, no applications breaking with the new Python revision, etc. Just apps from the app store that work (mostly). So, the Server Farms that comprise the cloud aren't ancient, but they might as well be remote temples just like those we had in the 1960s.
- aj7 4y agoI don’t think much “computing” is done, in our sense of the word, on tablets and phones. Personally, I’ve found that almost any slightly complex, has-to-be-done-once-and p-right, action is better performed on an actual computer. And that’s not even considering writing new programs.
- Karrot_Kream 4y agoThis hasn't been my experience. I'm able to be surprisingly effective on my smartphone. I've constructed trip itineraries, balanced outing budgets, shared shopping lists, designed room layouts, computed food and drink recipe ratios, built DJ sets, laid out wood pieces, and read books using my smartphone. Coding is probably the only thing that I find unparalleled with a keyboard and a seated position than my smartphone. I used to game more often when I was younger and I still generally prefer to game in a seated position though I have gamed on my smartphone before.
- renewiltord 4y agoHa, possible if all the lunatics who want us to be marked a Professional Engineer to program have their way. We must fight them at every turn.
- Syonyk 4y ago> Solid-state computer components, on the other hand, have no mechanical decay, so they are practically eternal. I wish. Electrolytic capacitors seem to have a functional lifespan of about 10-20 years, transistors do wear out, electromigration is a problem in chips in the "hundreds of years" span discussed, and there are all sorts of other interesting failure modes of "solid state" electronics that mean they're not going to last hundreds of years without some pretty massive heroics - and that's when you can repair it at all.
- Gordonjcp 4y ago[flagged]
- camtarn 4y agoLet me Google that for you: "All electrolytic capacitors with non-solid electrolyte age over time, due to evaporation of the electrolyte. The capacitance usually decreases and the ESR usually increases. The normal lifespan of a non-solid electrolytic capacitor of consumer quality, typically rated at 2000 h/85 °C and operating at 40 °C, is roughly 6 years. It can be more than 10 years for a 1000 h/105 °C capacitor operating at 40 °C. Electrolytic capacitors that operate at a lower temperature can have a considerably longer lifespan." ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague ) "Electromigration decreases the reliability of integrated circuits (ICs). It can cause the eventual loss of connections or failure of a circuit. Since reliability is critically important ... the reliability of chips (ICs) is a major focus of research efforts. ... With increasing miniaturization, the probability of failure due to electromigration increases ... In modern consumer electronic devices, ICs rarely fail due to electromigration effects. ... Nevertheless, there have been documented cases of product failures due to electromigration." ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromigration https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromigration ) Before dismissively replying, maybe do your research.
- Gordonjcp 4y agoThe electrolyte doesn't evaporate. The "capacitor plague" thing was because in the early 2000s every manufacturer started buying the same kind of cheapest electrolytics they could find that simply did not meet spec. If your electrolytic caps are failing after six years, you're running them at too high a voltage.
- Gordonjcp 4y ago> It is commonly thought to be futile to even try to make youngsters interested in computers – they simply don't yet have the required patience or concentration. You say that, but I find it far easier to explain how to solve computer problems over the phone to older people than younger people.
- thriftwy 4y agoMake everyone a long-range telepath. You eliminate most of mundane uses of computers (such as Whatsapp, buying stuff and getting news) since you can almost immediately do this person to person. To use computers, you need to learn to read (most people can't), which is esoteric by itself. Computers are used to store knowledge too fragile to be transferred via pollination, and for computations. Obviously, you need a lot of concentration to use a computer in such a world, and will be considered loony.
- CoolGuySteve 4y agoIt's a good story but it kind of ignores something fundamental. Most early writing systems were created for accounting, like Bob gets 5 wheat, Doug gets 5 sheep, etc. In a world where computers are some ancient artifact, they would still have significant value as calculators and accounting tools. It's likely some scribe class would emerge around using them to manage the day-to-day of whatever social hierarchy is present. Visicalc will never die!
- bee_rider 4y agoThey are just describing how computing works in an academic system if you’ve run out of HPC cluster credits and haven’t gotten a grant for a new system recently.
- ruined 4y agoalways coming home
- atleastoptimal 4y agoComputers are, essentially, fast, iterative, extremely useful for automated and communication tasks, and naturally attract young, detail focused minds based on these qualities. Those essential qualities lend themselves to computer culture. Inherent qualities lead to cultural connotations, not the other way around.
- zerbin 4y agoI'm not sure you can say that their attraction of youth is actually "natural" - as other subthreads here have suggested, Gen Z is considerably less interested in computing than my (millenial) generation was. When I was a teenager I was torrenting 100% of my media, tweaking and installing VST's in Ableton's Max for Live to make music, hacking my school district's crappy computer security system to get onto a proxy and play video games in the library, and then figuring out how to code in Powershell so I could bot on those games.. the list goes on. Me and my friends thought we were Epic Trolls and hackers - I think that image has been relegated to the "cringe" bin of history, the same way that people look at pictures of themselves wearing leather jackets with teased hair from the 80's and go - Look! Look how ridiculous I was back then! Times have changed. I think for a certain segment of the population born between 1980 and 1995, mostly male gamer/geek type personalities (and believe me, I do cringe at the person I believed I was in 2006 when I was doing all of this stuff), computers were and remain attractive because of the stereotypical associations with the Hacker/slacker archetype - the cultural milieu consistent with The Matrix, online video games, shows like the I.T. crowd, musicians like Aphex Twin and Radiohead, fantasy and sci-fi ranging from the more primitive Dwarf Fortress and Lord of The Rings to the fast-paced cyberpunk of Counter Strike and Snow Crash. I'm not particularly "hip" but a lot of the mystique and glory of the Hacker seems to have worn off with kids these days - gaming and mobile phones are ubiquitous and easy to use, where they used to only be for the "hardcore nerds". Tech startups full of people like me when I was 18 have taken over the world (unfortunately, I was not one of them) and they seem to have done their fair share of harm. I know that computer science remains popular as a career avenue to make money for young people, but I'm not sure that they're particularly passionate about it in the way that some people my age and older are. When I was into it as a self-styled "outcast" neckbeard teenager, I was into it because of the cultural connotations and the associations marketed to me as a young man in the "hacker" heyday. Imagine telling me or any young "geek" type guy in 2005 that when I was 35 that I would be a systems engineer working with ex-frat bro type guys on the hardest problems I have ever approached - I probably would have scoffed and told you that there's no way such a small mind could ever approach the mathematics and algorithms needed to REALLY be an engineer (again, cringe, but true). Yet here I am, and it's great. Suffice it to say that I don't think there's anything uniquely young or male about computing or computers, and that the culture around them is completely free to morph and shift as
- Sophistifunk 4y agoReplace "computers" with "metal" and it seems about as likely, and as interesting as far as thought experiments go.
- korse 4y agoAs someone who primarily works with computers in industrial machinery, this doesn't seem all that fanciful. What breaks the metaphor for me however is the 'computers have no practical use in society' line. Medicine, modern precision manufacturing and transportation have radically changed the quality of life for billions. Without the development of global timekeeping, communications and computing (mainframes at least) life would be much nastier and shorter for many. Does the inversion also come with all of that baggage?
- EGreg 4y agoActually, this is pretty much how things were during the mainframe days :) Or so I hear... punch cards, anyone? reserve some time on the system?
- cthulhus_crocs 4y agoReminds me of The Temples of Syrinx, by Rush
- kirkules 4y agoWhy not say "the essence of computing is computing"? It's not like "universiality" is any more explicit or clear than "computing" itself. What is the point of this kind of "finding the essence" exercise anyway? Definitely seems to be very subjective, to say the least.
- dusted 4y ago> Solid-state computer components, on the other hand, have no mechanical decay, so they are practically eternal. This is unfortunately a wrong assumption. Electromigration will kill everything with time. Most chips are designed for a finite lifespan, not in the 100s or 1000s of years, but single digits.. Sure, they last a lot longer, but not forever. However, the article is still a lovely read! A lot of it does not seem inverted at all. > Programming is the most essential element of all computer use The idea that it is a sacred place, where breathing slows down and thoughts become wholesome. Indeed, it is the essence of computing.