10 ms·

Comment about the victims being male. Response about how men can change their behavior for women.

by LanceH 4y ago

sn0wf1re 4y ago
The response is how to take basic steps to protect one's self. Steps that are already common among women. Basic safety steps are not victim blaming, for example, wearing bright clothing at night to reduce the chance of being injured by motor vehicle. It seems you are implying that the comment is victim blaming, or if I take your statement less charitably it is flame bait implying that the comment above would cause outrage if the genders were swapped.
- LanceH 4y ago
  > Understanding that will help you plan your dates accordingly so that she can feel a lot more comfortable, and you'll both have a much better time. All the points were valid, but when people talk about the invisibility of male victims...this is it.
  - saagarjha 4y ago
    This advice is literally exactly what every woman is told. It has nothing to do with male victims.
    - chitowneats 4y ago
      The article is about overwhelmingly male victims. It's not always about you!
      - ZGDUwpqEWpUZ 4y ago
        Saagar is a male forename, but yes, reducing kidnapping to "losing your wallet" in an attempt at whataboutery is a bit tasteless.
        chitowneats 4y ago
        You're right. I assumed the commenter was male. I'm just recalling how many times women in my life said that to me in response to me daring to bring up any male-centered concerns. Things like Me Too witch hunts of men later proven to be innocent.
        mattzito 4y ago
        I have been able to have constructive conversations about things like false rape accusations with women by engaging constructively and having specific, salient points about them. When I have seen them go very badly, it is almost always because the man comes at the conversation as there is somehow some equivalence or at least relative importance. And there absolutely is not anything close to equivalence. Sexual violence is so prevalent among women that I know several women who have been assaulted multiple times. I once was having a deep conversation with two female friends and one of them started to tell a story that was obviously hard to tell, and when she paused, the other friend said without emotion, “so, what’s this going to be, rape or no rape?” (It was rape) So yes, sure “me too witch hunts” are a real bummer, but telling that to a woman who has a not-insignificant percent chance of having been assaulted for real seems tone deaf, to put it mildly.
        chitowneats 4y ago
        And yet, TFA is about a completely separate phenomenon. Why are you seemingly incapable of staying on topic by discussing it?
        mattzito 4y ago
        This your definition of on-topic? > I'm just recalling how many times women in my life said that to me in response to me daring to bring up any male-centered concerns. Things like Me Too witch hunts of men later proven to be innocent. This is also in a larger thread correctly identifying that this is a situation that women have had to deal with for years - with no one saying it is acceptable.
  - autoexec 4y ago
    I too thought your criticizing was overaggressive, but I'll grant you one thing: the comment "You may know that you're not the man who does that, but they don't, and the consequences can be worse than losing your wallet." does give the impression that the worst thing male victims might suffer is a "lost wallet" when the article makes it clear that these attacks against men are violent and have included homicides I'm not convinced that the commenter was intentionally trivializing the attacks on these men, but it's likely that the way it was phrased would have that effect.
- luckylion 4y ago
  > Basic safety steps are not victim blaming I agree, but it's 100% called victim blaming when you apply it to women. "We shouldn't have to do anything differently", "teach men not to rape" etc etc. I don't think anyone here disagrees, they're pointing out the double standard.
  - skyyler 4y ago
    But women already get that advice of meeting in public / telling friends... If this is some kind of "gotcha", I think you're doing it wrong.
    - luckylion 4y ago
      Go give women that advice, see what happens. Again, it's solid advice. But you'll get torn apart if you publicly give "be safe first, be right second" advice to women.
      - JohnFen 4y ago
        You don't need to give that advice to women. They've already gotten it, almost certainly from other women. Given how women are often treated by men, I totally understand why they would chafe at being given this sort of advice from a man. I would, too, if I were in their shoes. Apparently there are a lot of men who haven't received this advice from anyone, though, even though it always applied to them as well.
        birdyrooster 4y ago
        > Given how women are often treated by other women, I totally understand why they would chafe at being given this sort of advice. I think it is ad-hominem fallacy to say that an argument's provenance changes it in any significant way whether it comes from a man or a woman.
        kadoban 4y ago
        > I think it is ad-hominem fallacy to say that an argument's provenance changes Advice isn't an argument.
elil17 4y ago
Obviously no one should have to be so careful. We should aspire to have a society where all people are safe from crime. But this is the reality of the world right now, and it is helpful to suggest that men take a page from women's playbooks when it comes to personal safety.
jfengel 4y ago
You're absolutely right. Just as we should be teaching boys not to assault women, we should be teaching girls not to drug and rob men. That doesn't seem to be as big a problem yet, but we should nip it in the bud before it spreads beyond São Paulo. Every parent should teach their daughters that robbing men is wrong. Just as every parent should be teaching their sons that raping women is wrong. There is no excuse. Whether he's wearing a Rolex, or she's wearing a miniskirt, that's their choice to make. It is not an invitation, and you are not entitled to anything. Rape is a crime, and robbery is a crime. We should prosecute both, and make sure our children get the message that it is unacceptable. I appreciate your reminder that the criminal, not the victim, is to blame. It's unfortunate that people do have to protect themselves, but I hadn't intended my advice to suggest that that's the only change we should make. We already have laws and must enforce them.
- pelasaco 4y ago
  don't forget the every woman is a robber in potential /s
- callmetom 4y ago
  [dead]
- gowld 4y ago
  Oh, we forgot to tell criminals to not be criminal. What a silly overight.
  - jfengel 4y ago
    Unfortunately, this is a real problem for women. A lot of boys get the impression that women are "teasing" them and "deserve" to be assaulted. Every woman who files rape charges knows that she's going to have her sexual history questioned, and be asked what she was wearing, as if that made a difference to the legality. You wouldn't think that "No means no" is a lesson we'd have to teach, but not only do we have to, but a lot of people will push back on it. So I'm being a bit facetious in my reply, but I'm using the opportunity of the OP's self-pity to reiterate: this is a thing that women go through all the time.
majormajor 4y ago
This advice is given all the damn time. You've never seen an article about how to be safe on blind dates or such? A quick google search turns up several. Is it that women's problems are invisible to you until men start having some of them?
asveikau 4y ago
Does that bother you, sir? I can tell you that I'm not bothered by this at all.

Comment about the victims being male. Response about how men can change their behavior for women.

by LanceH 4y ago

Comment about the victims being male. Response about how men can change their behavior for women.

The response is how to take basic steps to protect one's self. Steps that are already common among women. Basic safety steps are not victim blaming, for example, wearing bright clothing at night to reduce the chance of being injured by motor vehicle. It seems you are implying that the comment is victim blaming, or if I take your statement less charitably it is flame bait implying that the comment above would cause outrage if the genders were swapped.

LanceH 4y ago
> Understanding that will help you plan your dates accordingly so that she can feel a lot more comfortable, and you'll both have a much better time. All the points were valid, but when people talk about the invisibility of male victims...this is it.
- saagarjha 4y ago
  This advice is literally exactly what every woman is told. It has nothing to do with male victims.
  - chitowneats 4y ago
    The article is about overwhelmingly male victims. It's not always about you!
    - ZGDUwpqEWpUZ 4y ago
      Saagar is a male forename, but yes, reducing kidnapping to "losing your wallet" in an attempt at whataboutery is a bit tasteless.
      - chitowneats 4y ago
        You're right. I assumed the commenter was male. I'm just recalling how many times women in my life said that to me in response to me daring to bring up any male-centered concerns. Things like Me Too witch hunts of men later proven to be innocent.
        mattzito 4y ago
        I have been able to have constructive conversations about things like false rape accusations with women by engaging constructively and having specific, salient points about them. When I have seen them go very badly, it is almost always because the man comes at the conversation as there is somehow some equivalence or at least relative importance. And there absolutely is not anything close to equivalence. Sexual violence is so prevalent among women that I know several women who have been assaulted multiple times. I once was having a deep conversation with two female friends and one of them started to tell a story that was obviously hard to tell, and when she paused, the other friend said without emotion, “so, what’s this going to be, rape or no rape?” (It was rape) So yes, sure “me too witch hunts” are a real bummer, but telling that to a woman who has a not-insignificant percent chance of having been assaulted for real seems tone deaf, to put it mildly.
        chitowneats 4y ago
        And yet, TFA is about a completely separate phenomenon. Why are you seemingly incapable of staying on topic by discussing it?
        mattzito 4y ago
        This your definition of on-topic? > I'm just recalling how many times women in my life said that to me in response to me daring to bring up any male-centered concerns. Things like Me Too witch hunts of men later proven to be innocent. This is also in a larger thread correctly identifying that this is a situation that women have had to deal with for years - with no one saying it is acceptable.
- autoexec 4y ago
  I too thought your criticizing was overaggressive, but I'll grant you one thing: the comment "You may know that you're not the man who does that, but they don't, and the consequences can be worse than losing your wallet." does give the impression that the worst thing male victims might suffer is a "lost wallet" when the article makes it clear that these attacks against men are violent and have included homicides I'm not convinced that the commenter was intentionally trivializing the attacks on these men, but it's likely that the way it was phrased would have that effect.
luckylion 4y ago
> Basic safety steps are not victim blaming I agree, but it's 100% called victim blaming when you apply it to women. "We shouldn't have to do anything differently", "teach men not to rape" etc etc. I don't think anyone here disagrees, they're pointing out the double standard.
- skyyler 4y ago
  But women already get that advice of meeting in public / telling friends... If this is some kind of "gotcha", I think you're doing it wrong.
  - luckylion 4y ago
    Go give women that advice, see what happens. Again, it's solid advice. But you'll get torn apart if you publicly give "be safe first, be right second" advice to women.
    - JohnFen 4y ago
      You don't need to give that advice to women. They've already gotten it, almost certainly from other women. Given how women are often treated by men, I totally understand why they would chafe at being given this sort of advice from a man. I would, too, if I were in their shoes. Apparently there are a lot of men who haven't received this advice from anyone, though, even though it always applied to them as well.
      - birdyrooster 4y ago
        > Given how women are often treated by other women, I totally understand why they would chafe at being given this sort of advice. I think it is ad-hominem fallacy to say that an argument's provenance changes it in any significant way whether it comes from a man or a woman.
        kadoban 4y ago
        > I think it is ad-hominem fallacy to say that an argument's provenance changes Advice isn't an argument.

elil17 4y ago

Obviously no one should have to be so careful. We should aspire to have a society where all people are safe from crime. But this is the reality of the world right now, and it is helpful to suggest that men take a page from women's playbooks when it comes to personal safety.

jfengel 4y ago

You're absolutely right. Just as we should be teaching boys not to assault women, we should be teaching girls not to drug and rob men. That doesn't seem to be as big a problem yet, but we should nip it in the bud before it spreads beyond São Paulo. Every parent should teach their daughters that robbing men is wrong. Just as every parent should be teaching their sons that raping women is wrong. There is no excuse. Whether he's wearing a Rolex, or she's wearing a miniskirt, that's their choice to make. It is not an invitation, and you are not entitled to anything. Rape is a crime, and robbery is a crime. We should prosecute both, and make sure our children get the message that it is unacceptable. I appreciate your reminder that the criminal, not the victim, is to blame. It's unfortunate that people do have to protect themselves, but I hadn't intended my advice to suggest that that's the only change we should make. We already have laws and must enforce them.

pelasaco 4y ago
don't forget the every woman is a robber in potential /s
callmetom 4y ago
[dead]
gowld 4y ago
Oh, we forgot to tell criminals to not be criminal. What a silly overight.
- jfengel 4y ago
  Unfortunately, this is a real problem for women. A lot of boys get the impression that women are "teasing" them and "deserve" to be assaulted. Every woman who files rape charges knows that she's going to have her sexual history questioned, and be asked what she was wearing, as if that made a difference to the legality. You wouldn't think that "No means no" is a lesson we'd have to teach, but not only do we have to, but a lot of people will push back on it. So I'm being a bit facetious in my reply, but I'm using the opportunity of the OP's self-pity to reiterate: this is a thing that women go through all the time.

majormajor 4y ago

This advice is given all the damn time. You've never seen an article about how to be safe on blind dates or such? A quick google search turns up several. Is it that women's problems are invisible to you until men start having some of them?

asveikau 4y ago

Does that bother you, sir? I can tell you that I'm not bothered by this at all.