7 ms·

20 million Quest 2 headsets is no joke. That's comparable to the sales of the Xbox Series X. Meta is suddenly the 4th major game console vendor. That's signific

20 million Quest 2 headsets is no joke. That's comparable to the sales of the Xbox Series X. Meta is suddenly the 4th major game console vendor. That's significantly more sales than any other VR headset in history. Most sold less than 1 million units. PSVR is in second place at about 5 million units. And all that with basically Playstation 2 era graphics and a trash game library with no real AAA titles.

seanmcdirmid 4y ago
A lot of people just use their quest to play beat saber. I only play two games on mine (FitXR and Beat Saber), but that’s enough for 40m-1h a day. I don’t think I would ever game on my quest, however.
- dougmwne 4y ago
  It is a fabulous exercise device. I have also found that Thrill of the Fight is an amazing stress buster. I think it’s because it hooks into the fight or flight response and closes the loop on chronic stress by letting you punch it in the face.
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    I don't really have the space for Thrill of the Fight, rhythm boxing and rhythm slicing are fairly stationary, so I don't have to worry about crashing into anything.
    - dougmwne 4y ago
      Yet more friction. It actually takes quite a bit of space to not smack into things playing the more active games.
- jobs_throwaway 4y ago
  > I don’t think I would ever game on my quest, however. Why is that?
  - hnlmorg 4y ago
    Not the OP but I agree with them and basically because of the point the GP made: PS2 era graphics and very few “killer app” style games. It’s also much more ergonomic using a keyboard + mouse / gamepad and monitors. Don’t get me wrong, the Quest 2 is fun. But at this stage it feels more like the Wii in terms of it being entertaining but not something you’d want to play “serious” (for want a better word) games on and over long periods of time. The biggest difference between the Quest 2 and Wii is that Q2 isn’t as well suited for social gatherings.
    - dmix 4y ago
      > PS2 era graphics and very few “killer app” style games. If the game studios / Oculus handlers were smart - when it was first released - they would have mined all of the best PS/3 era games to remake in VR instead of everyone trying innovative VR arcade games like creative Skunkworks teams instead of transforming past classics. Silent Hill series, more resident evil titles, Metal Gear Solid 1/2 would be amazing, Half life 2, etc. There's a gold mine of FPS style controlled games that could be merged into a VR experience. I get the feeling AAA teams are waiting for the graphics to make new ones instead of doing remakes. Which is a big shame.
      - dougmwne 4y ago
        I don’t totally agree with this. For sure classic AAA games with motion controls bolted on can be fun, but it doesn’t take full advantage of the platform. VR really benefits from physical engagement, get the player up and moving, sweating and having the world respond physically and realistically to their actions. This helps take attention away from weak graphics, heavy headsets and blurry lenses.
      - hnlmorg 4y ago
        A lot of studios did this at first (albeit not for the Oculus specifically). And we learned that bolting on VR to an existing FPS doesn't usually result in a stellar VR experience. To go back to my Wii comparison, the games that were the most fun on that platform were ones that took advantage of the motion controls in a way that centred the game around it. Rather than games that used motion as an after thought (or didn't even use them at all).
dagmx 4y ago
Large sales of hardware without large sales of software is a problem though, and one Meta speak to in the leak. These headsets, like consoles, are most certainly subsidized with some expectations of game sales. Meta say they’re not seeing long lasting engagement. That would make each headset some form of loss. Regarding graphics…I think comparing VR graphics to regular console graphics is a mistake. The immersiveness goes a long way to making things feel more realistic than they are. It doesn’t mean they actually look better, but the brain is better at filling in the gaps.
- agloe_dreams 4y ago
  > These headsets, like consoles, are most certainly subsidized with some expectations of game sales. Meta say they’re not seeing long lasting engagement. This was more true before than now. The Q2 launched at US $299. At that price they were losing potentially hundreds per unit. They were quoting multi-billion dollar quarter losses. Now at $399 and enough manufacturing time to lower costs, I bet they are close to break even. The hardware is becoming dated so the cost get get components must be not too shabby. Ultimately the Quest 2 is a Samsung Galaxy S20 under it all, seriously. The Xr2 is based on the 865 and the display is a high res ~6 inch LCD cut in half via optics.
  - dagmx 4y ago
    This will feel a bit like moving the goalposts from me, but I’m guessing you’re talking about BOM costs to make the device? I’m talking about cost of the device+amortized R&D. I still doubt they’re breaking even on parts because there’s quite a few custom components in there but even if so, that’s still not funding their development of content and future devices. That means their Reality Labs section is basically borrowing from every other profitable part of Meta instead to keep going.
- dylan604 4y ago
  > Meta say they’re not seeing long lasting engagement. That's gotta be a gut punch to both Meta and the consumer. The consumer spent the money for it, but then gets bored quickly. Meta spent all of this time/money to make the next great boring thing. Couldn't happen to a nicer group of folks though /s
agloe_dreams 4y ago
Agree with the second half as well. I think the issue for the Quest 2 is that it is a great product with no actual killer, daily app. Combine this with it being a modal experience that requires your full attention you get a lot of sitting Quest 2s. I had this issue. Great product that wowed me every time I used it...but utterly lacking most reasons TO use it. So, it sat.
dmix 4y ago
I wouldn't call the game library trash even despite the lack of AAA. It doesn't seem like there's much AAA in VR period. And stuff like Half Life Alyx you can still play on a Quest 2 via usb-c to mid-teir PC or shadow.vr cloud gaming. Otherwise I had a ton of fun replaying Resident Evil 4 and other games. The graphics are relatively primitive but the entire experience makes up for it 2 fold. When it's good it's really good. Just have to wade through a lot of arcady games to find them. Also multiplayer is 100% squeeky voiced kids and teenagers, so avoid. The best thing I discovered was the unreleased Quest game dB where all the prerelase and indie titles are. It doubles the amount of content available. Lots of it free. https://www.applabdb.com/ https://www.applabdb.com/
- dougmwne 4y ago
  I get what you are saying, and if you are into indie titles and solo devs doing groundbreaking innovation with new game mechanics, Quest is very exciting, almost like going back in time to the first 3D graphics or the introduction of the CD rom. But if you want polished experiences anywhere close to something like Cyberpunk or Red Dead Redemption, you will not find anything even close. It’s not just a matter of graphics, the scope and scale of the content is vastly smaller than even what was on the PS2 or GameCube libraries.
  - technotony 4y ago
    I've played both Cyberpunk and Red Dead Redemption on my Quest 2 via pc link, using Luke Ross RealVR mod [1] and they were amazing. Setting up the tech is fiddly and even when you get it running updates constantly break it, so it's not quite consumer ready, but if you hack together experiences they will blow your mind. [1] https://www.patreon.com/realvr https://www.patreon.com/realvr
    - dougmwne 4y ago
      I agree that sounds absolutely amazing. Probably also way less than 1% of Quest owners would go through the pain to do that. I’m also assuming that VR sickness would be a major issue for all but the most hardy.
danso 4y ago
I wonder what the usage rate of the Quest 2 is, compared to the average gaming console. I genuinely appreciate the Q2 as hardware, especially compared to the PSVR. But as you said the library is pretty dismal — Beat Saber and Rec Room are still the most fleshed out games. Truth is even though motion sickness isn’t a factor for me, VR gaming feels like too much of a chore for what should be leisure time. If I want a workout, I can get an hour in on the treadmill playing Slay the Spire on my phone.
ozten 4y ago
The leak also mentions user retention issues. These headsets are in drawers collecting dust. Newer cohorts of users are less engaged that the early adopter cohorts, which is surprising given that there is now more high quality content than in May of 2019.
- dougmwne 4y ago
  I thought that was very interesting from a Product Management standpoint. You are right, there’s way more to do in Quest than when it was released. And games are getting much better at playing to VR’s strengths. I suspect the answer is friction. I bet that the early adopters were enthusiastic enough to actually put the damn thing on. People who bought in later maybe tried it and thought it was cool, but don’t have enough motivation to use it past the “wow” period. I’ll give a friction example. I am playing a VR game now called Barbaria. It’s a fantastic clash of clans meets physics based combat game that really plays to VR strengths. It has a mechanic that encourages you to log in each day to collect more points that would work extremely well on mobile with a push notification. On VR, first there’s no notification, and then what could have been a 5 minute interaction on mobile turns into 5 minutes of headset setup and app loading for the 5 minutes of interaction. And you can only do it when you are home! Basically you only bother with it if you know you are going to have at least 30 minutes of 100% dedicated distraction-free time while you put your phone away, a high bar these days!
  - lampshades 4y ago
    I agree that friction is the problem. My wife was incredibly frustrated trying to set up our Quest 2 after I wiped it for her, but once set up, we hung out in Horizon Worlds and she ended up staying there an hour longer than myself because she was talking to some other woman with young children. VR/AR is a really hard thing to sell because you don’t know what you can experience until you experience it. And you don’t see how revolutionary this will be until you really start playing around with it and trying to integrate it with your life. > Basically you only bother with it if you know you are going to have at least 30 minutes of 100% dedicated distraction-free time while you put your phone away, a high bar these days! This is where Apple will dominate, and I think Meta knows it. With Apples headset I’m sure you will have your phone, iMessage, etc all built in. No need to check the phone anymore.
recuter 4y ago
4th out of four? And it can't even hack time. My money personally is on Famicom to own this space.
skizm 4y ago
Sadly (for Meta) the killer app is the Virtual Desktop app which lets you access your (much higher spec) PC and use SteamVR to access games like HL Alyx. For that, there is no other competitor. Wireless VR with access to my gaming rig's specs is pretty great.
marcosdumay 4y ago
> Meta is suddenly the 4th major game console vendor. This is a very oligopolized market, with huge barriers to entry, and exactly 3 remaining large players. Being #4 is not "no big deal", but it's also around the minimum expected result from spending $10 billions on that market.
- dougmwne 4y ago
  No success is guaranteed, even when you burn billions of dollars. There are so many examples of that. Magic Leap anyone? Having a user base in the 10s of millions may not be world domination, but it could be much worse!

seanmcdirmid 4y ago

A lot of people just use their quest to play beat saber. I only play two games on mine (FitXR and Beat Saber), but that’s enough for 40m-1h a day. I don’t think I would ever game on my quest, however.

dougmwne 4y ago
It is a fabulous exercise device. I have also found that Thrill of the Fight is an amazing stress buster. I think it’s because it hooks into the fight or flight response and closes the loop on chronic stress by letting you punch it in the face.
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  I don't really have the space for Thrill of the Fight, rhythm boxing and rhythm slicing are fairly stationary, so I don't have to worry about crashing into anything.
  - dougmwne 4y ago
    Yet more friction. It actually takes quite a bit of space to not smack into things playing the more active games.
jobs_throwaway 4y ago
> I don’t think I would ever game on my quest, however. Why is that?
- hnlmorg 4y ago
  Not the OP but I agree with them and basically because of the point the GP made: PS2 era graphics and very few “killer app” style games. It’s also much more ergonomic using a keyboard + mouse / gamepad and monitors. Don’t get me wrong, the Quest 2 is fun. But at this stage it feels more like the Wii in terms of it being entertaining but not something you’d want to play “serious” (for want a better word) games on and over long periods of time. The biggest difference between the Quest 2 and Wii is that Q2 isn’t as well suited for social gatherings.
  - dmix 4y ago
    > PS2 era graphics and very few “killer app” style games. If the game studios / Oculus handlers were smart - when it was first released - they would have mined all of the best PS/3 era games to remake in VR instead of everyone trying innovative VR arcade games like creative Skunkworks teams instead of transforming past classics. Silent Hill series, more resident evil titles, Metal Gear Solid 1/2 would be amazing, Half life 2, etc. There's a gold mine of FPS style controlled games that could be merged into a VR experience. I get the feeling AAA teams are waiting for the graphics to make new ones instead of doing remakes. Which is a big shame.
    - dougmwne 4y ago
      I don’t totally agree with this. For sure classic AAA games with motion controls bolted on can be fun, but it doesn’t take full advantage of the platform. VR really benefits from physical engagement, get the player up and moving, sweating and having the world respond physically and realistically to their actions. This helps take attention away from weak graphics, heavy headsets and blurry lenses.
    - hnlmorg 4y ago
      A lot of studios did this at first (albeit not for the Oculus specifically). And we learned that bolting on VR to an existing FPS doesn't usually result in a stellar VR experience. To go back to my Wii comparison, the games that were the most fun on that platform were ones that took advantage of the motion controls in a way that centred the game around it. Rather than games that used motion as an after thought (or didn't even use them at all).

dagmx 4y ago

Large sales of hardware without large sales of software is a problem though, and one Meta speak to in the leak. These headsets, like consoles, are most certainly subsidized with some expectations of game sales. Meta say they’re not seeing long lasting engagement. That would make each headset some form of loss. Regarding graphics…I think comparing VR graphics to regular console graphics is a mistake. The immersiveness goes a long way to making things feel more realistic than they are. It doesn’t mean they actually look better, but the brain is better at filling in the gaps.

agloe_dreams 4y ago
> These headsets, like consoles, are most certainly subsidized with some expectations of game sales. Meta say they’re not seeing long lasting engagement. This was more true before than now. The Q2 launched at US $299. At that price they were losing potentially hundreds per unit. They were quoting multi-billion dollar quarter losses. Now at $399 and enough manufacturing time to lower costs, I bet they are close to break even. The hardware is becoming dated so the cost get get components must be not too shabby. Ultimately the Quest 2 is a Samsung Galaxy S20 under it all, seriously. The Xr2 is based on the 865 and the display is a high res ~6 inch LCD cut in half via optics.
- dagmx 4y ago
  This will feel a bit like moving the goalposts from me, but I’m guessing you’re talking about BOM costs to make the device? I’m talking about cost of the device+amortized R&D. I still doubt they’re breaking even on parts because there’s quite a few custom components in there but even if so, that’s still not funding their development of content and future devices. That means their Reality Labs section is basically borrowing from every other profitable part of Meta instead to keep going.
dylan604 4y ago
> Meta say they’re not seeing long lasting engagement. That's gotta be a gut punch to both Meta and the consumer. The consumer spent the money for it, but then gets bored quickly. Meta spent all of this time/money to make the next great boring thing. Couldn't happen to a nicer group of folks though /s

agloe_dreams 4y ago

Agree with the second half as well. I think the issue for the Quest 2 is that it is a great product with no actual killer, daily app. Combine this with it being a modal experience that requires your full attention you get a lot of sitting Quest 2s. I had this issue. Great product that wowed me every time I used it...but utterly lacking most reasons TO use it. So, it sat.

dmix 4y ago

I wouldn't call the game library trash even despite the lack of AAA. It doesn't seem like there's much AAA in VR period. And stuff like Half Life Alyx you can still play on a Quest 2 via usb-c to mid-teir PC or shadow.vr cloud gaming. Otherwise I had a ton of fun replaying Resident Evil 4 and other games. The graphics are relatively primitive but the entire experience makes up for it 2 fold. When it's good it's really good. Just have to wade through a lot of arcady games to find them. Also multiplayer is 100% squeeky voiced kids and teenagers, so avoid. The best thing I discovered was the unreleased Quest game dB where all the prerelase and indie titles are. It doubles the amount of content available. Lots of it free. https://www.applabdb.com/ https://www.applabdb.com/

dougmwne 4y ago
I get what you are saying, and if you are into indie titles and solo devs doing groundbreaking innovation with new game mechanics, Quest is very exciting, almost like going back in time to the first 3D graphics or the introduction of the CD rom. But if you want polished experiences anywhere close to something like Cyberpunk or Red Dead Redemption, you will not find anything even close. It’s not just a matter of graphics, the scope and scale of the content is vastly smaller than even what was on the PS2 or GameCube libraries.
- technotony 4y ago
  I've played both Cyberpunk and Red Dead Redemption on my Quest 2 via pc link, using Luke Ross RealVR mod [1] and they were amazing. Setting up the tech is fiddly and even when you get it running updates constantly break it, so it's not quite consumer ready, but if you hack together experiences they will blow your mind. [1] https://www.patreon.com/realvr https://www.patreon.com/realvr
  - dougmwne 4y ago
    I agree that sounds absolutely amazing. Probably also way less than 1% of Quest owners would go through the pain to do that. I’m also assuming that VR sickness would be a major issue for all but the most hardy.

danso 4y ago

I wonder what the usage rate of the Quest 2 is, compared to the average gaming console. I genuinely appreciate the Q2 as hardware, especially compared to the PSVR. But as you said the library is pretty dismal — Beat Saber and Rec Room are still the most fleshed out games. Truth is even though motion sickness isn’t a factor for me, VR gaming feels like too much of a chore for what should be leisure time. If I want a workout, I can get an hour in on the treadmill playing Slay the Spire on my phone.

ozten 4y ago

The leak also mentions user retention issues. These headsets are in drawers collecting dust. Newer cohorts of users are less engaged that the early adopter cohorts, which is surprising given that there is now more high quality content than in May of 2019.

dougmwne 4y ago
I thought that was very interesting from a Product Management standpoint. You are right, there’s way more to do in Quest than when it was released. And games are getting much better at playing to VR’s strengths. I suspect the answer is friction. I bet that the early adopters were enthusiastic enough to actually put the damn thing on. People who bought in later maybe tried it and thought it was cool, but don’t have enough motivation to use it past the “wow” period. I’ll give a friction example. I am playing a VR game now called Barbaria. It’s a fantastic clash of clans meets physics based combat game that really plays to VR strengths. It has a mechanic that encourages you to log in each day to collect more points that would work extremely well on mobile with a push notification. On VR, first there’s no notification, and then what could have been a 5 minute interaction on mobile turns into 5 minutes of headset setup and app loading for the 5 minutes of interaction. And you can only do it when you are home! Basically you only bother with it if you know you are going to have at least 30 minutes of 100% dedicated distraction-free time while you put your phone away, a high bar these days!
- lampshades 4y ago
  I agree that friction is the problem. My wife was incredibly frustrated trying to set up our Quest 2 after I wiped it for her, but once set up, we hung out in Horizon Worlds and she ended up staying there an hour longer than myself because she was talking to some other woman with young children. VR/AR is a really hard thing to sell because you don’t know what you can experience until you experience it. And you don’t see how revolutionary this will be until you really start playing around with it and trying to integrate it with your life. > Basically you only bother with it if you know you are going to have at least 30 minutes of 100% dedicated distraction-free time while you put your phone away, a high bar these days! This is where Apple will dominate, and I think Meta knows it. With Apples headset I’m sure you will have your phone, iMessage, etc all built in. No need to check the phone anymore.

recuter 4y ago

4th out of four? And it can't even hack time. My money personally is on Famicom to own this space.

skizm 4y ago

Sadly (for Meta) the killer app is the Virtual Desktop app which lets you access your (much higher spec) PC and use SteamVR to access games like HL Alyx. For that, there is no other competitor. Wireless VR with access to my gaming rig's specs is pretty great.

marcosdumay 4y ago

> Meta is suddenly the 4th major game console vendor. This is a very oligopolized market, with huge barriers to entry, and exactly 3 remaining large players. Being #4 is not "no big deal", but it's also around the minimum expected result from spending $10 billions on that market.

dougmwne 4y ago
No success is guaranteed, even when you burn billions of dollars. There are so many examples of that. Magic Leap anyone? Having a user base in the 10s of millions may not be world domination, but it could be much worse!