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Recently (3 months ago), I was visiting family in Portland, OR and experienced an odd event. For context, I currently live in Oslo, Norway. As I was using a cr

Recently (3 months ago), I was visiting family in Portland, OR and experienced an odd event. For context, I currently live in Oslo, Norway. As I was using a crosswalk, a Prius driver felt compelled to yell slurs at me. I can only guess that the inconvenience of having to yield to a pedestrian was some kind of trigger. Another observation was that very few pedestrians wear reflective gear. It almost seemed as if wearing dark clothes at night was intentional. I suspect that also has a negative effect on drivers as it can be extremely difficult to see pedestrians. I think pedestrian and driver safety go “hand in hand”. In Norway, pedestrians are expected to wear reflective gear and drivers are required to yield. Based on my empirical evidence, it is significantly safer walking in Oslo, Norway than in Portland, OR. I can only hope at this point that enough people come together to try and improve the safety in the states.

_Wintermute 4y ago
> the inconvenience of having to yield to a pedestrian was some kind of trigger I've experienced this in the UK as well using a zebra crossing. A driver decided to accelerate at me and then slam on the brakes as late as possible, then lean out the window to swear and tell me to get out the way. It definitely seems like extremely aggressive driving has become more common over the last few years. Not sure if it's just driving or the general attitude of people due to covid, inflation etc causing people to have shorter fuses.
- robflynn 4y ago
  The same thing happened to me recently! I had the walk indicator lit, crossing in a cross walk, someone comes speeding up to me and stopped and yelled at me to "get my ass out of the road." Someone else drove up on the sidewalk and almost hit me -- they were on their phone when it happened. People are nuts.
- tarsinge 4y ago
  My pet theory is lot of people overextended themselves due to easy financing[0] and are perpetually frustrated when driving due to the insatisfaction of getting very little of what they imagined. They are just commuting like everyone else but with an additional big bad financial decision. Pedestrians, bicycles, other drivers, everything then become an instant scapegoat for their frustration. [0]https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-02-14/new-car-prices-are-so-high-only-rich-americans-can-afford-them https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-02-14/new-car-p...
  - febusravenga 4y ago
    > Pedestrians, bicycles, other drivers, everything then become an instant scapegoat for their frustration Yeah, but if you yell at other drivers, they don't hear you so you can do it safely. If you yell (possibly with open window) to pedestrian/biker they hear you and "take harm" (however small it is). Another "priviledge" od being in car. Total isolation, including isolation from consequences of your own dick moves. The very social situation of being canned box is reason for so much frustration of drivers. When you're on bike/feet you behave much better usually.
- atchoo 4y ago
  It sounds like a variety of road rage which is an interesting psychological phenomena. There is something about that act of driving and the environment of a drivers seat that breeds maladaptive emotional responses. I think it's partly being alone and disconnected from other road users that generates runaway sense of entitlement and cooking off emotionally without any regulating social factors. I think that both driving and internet use have a common de-socialisation effect fuelling similar negative behaviours.
- secretsatan 4y ago
  One time a guy had to brake real hard as he almost ran a red light as I was crossing, he beeped at my and i told him to f himself, he drove the car around the block and assaulted me.
  - Rediscover 4y ago
    I am sorry that happened to You. That sucks. I've had sorta-similar experiences, but I've probably provoked them... If I have the right-of-way,e.g., stop sign AND I'm in the street when the automobile is 3/4 of the block away and they still try blowing through the intersection with me being in front of them... I either grab as high [front of the vehicle] as I can if I'm getting run-over, or, if a near-miss, I park one of my heavy boots into the side of their car (not recommended, I tend to dent it but I get tossed to the ground by their velocity). I live in Seattle, Belltown specifically, for 20 years, and spend much time in Pike Place Market [0]. I've worn a long black coat for the past 40 years; and this stuff only happens during daylight. The people who "circle around" to confront are rare. In those situations I behave calmly, explain what is going on, and most of the the time, we walk away. Now to atone... I do not put up with this in my neighborhood. I am lucky that I call an Attorney. Instead of seeing another "blah foo blah person...getting harassed by a "bum" I find either a compassionate human who figures-it-out or a dick-w that wants to punch me out.
- jbirer 4y ago
  Just massive sense of entitlement, either bred by spoiling children, or by abuse, breeding a "might is right" mentality.
unyttigfjelltol 4y ago
For some reason it's much easier to buy black or charcoal outerwear than something bright and reflective. I myself am baffled by this. As for the Prius-- something happened in the last few years and horrible, anti-social driving became much more prevalent. There were always a few... but now those folks seem to be everywhere, tailgating, aggressively ignoring crosswalks, damaging property and driving away. It's still not mainstream behavior, but it's very visible lately.
- renox 4y ago
  > For some reason it's much easier to buy black or charcoal outerwear than something bright and reflective. I myself am baffled by this. That's the same thing in France especially for winter clothes, and given that night are longer in winter that's makes it even worse!
  - ksimukka 4y ago
    Now that I think about it, the same can be said about outerwear here in Norway, but I just realised that I’m used to seeing the reflective band or vest standout.
- oblio 4y ago
  Bright colors are generally a lot more controversial than dark ones. You can see it in business attire.
- influx 4y ago
  There are many people who lost their minds over the past two years and haven’t recovered. It doesn’t help that many cities stopped routine traffic enforcement during the same period.
slhck 4y ago
It's apparently not in the interest of traffic engineers in the U.S. to care for pedestrian (or cyclist) safety. It's been this way since the post-war area where everything was built for cars, and this seems to have manifested in peoples' minds like the concrete they built. Hard to remove this. People seem to fight over minor improvements (like adding a protected bike lane or making safer crosswalks) while a drastic change would be necessary (like building completely different roads or changing underlying laws). I'd recommend checking out the "Not Just Bikes" YouTube channel for some interesting observations on the differences between the U.S. and Europe when it comes to traffic safety. Also, Strong Towns is a resource you might want to check out: https://www.strongtowns.org/ https://www.strongtowns.org/
- oblio 4y ago
  > It's apparently not in the interest of traffic engineers in the U.S. to care for pedestrian (or cyclist) safety. Knowing the average engineer, traffic engineers probably care about a lot of things. What usually happens is that someone higher up (politicians, city administrators, etc) set up an incentive system that forces the engineers' hand. Stuff like: "Increase car traffic speed in region X by Y% in 2023".
  - consp 4y ago
    Funny you mention that metric since it happens often and is irrelevant since throughput would be way more interesting since it is often chosen as a metric to "solve" congestion, especially total throughput (including not cars) would most likely increase the total speed (in general) for all commuters due to limiting congestion. Don't mention to car-centric politicians the most effective speed for safe throughput is about 40kph/25mph and not 120/75.
    - eru 4y ago
      > Don't mention to car-centric politicians the most effective speed for safe throughput is about 40kph/25mph and not 120/75. I would assume that depends on the road in question? Eg Autobahn vs dirt road? If not, that would be a very interesting result!
ecuaflo 4y ago
In other countries pedestrians don’t have the right of way and the US has a lot more immigrants than Norway so it may just be that driver didn’t learn the laws here
- oblio 4y ago
  > US has a lot more immigrants than Norway so it may just be that driver didn’t learn the laws here In absolute numbers, yes. Percentage-wise? No. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/immigration-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/immigrati... Norway ........... 852,238 ............. 15.72% United States ... 50,632,836 ........ 15.28%
TomK32 4y ago
On the reflective gear, such thinking only shifts the blame from the drivers to the pedestrians. It's the car that has the light, the driver that controls the speed and it's their responsibility to be able to stop their car quickly enough. After all distraction and speeding are the main causes for accidents here in Austria, reflective gear can't change that. The solution to reduce distraction and speeding is changing the road layout so drivers feel less comfortable to speed. Narrower roads, trees, speed bumps, even cobble stones will do the trick.
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  Blame is not always 100% on one side. If it is difficult to see you, especially at night, it is dangerous for you and cars (obviously more for you as pedestrian) even if drivers are prudent. Help cars and help yourself by being visible.
  - secretsatan 4y ago
    I don't see why walking around town should need protective gear, maybe we should wear helmets too?
    - macintux 4y ago
      If a driver turns off all their lights and gets hit, you don’t think the driver shares some of the blame? Pedestrians wearing dark clothes at night are almost invisible. Until we put sidewalks and bright crosswalks on every street in the country, wearing reflective clothes is common sense. Comparing that to a helmet mandate is absurd.
      - secretsatan 4y ago
        Ugh, talk about a false equivalence No, someone who pops out to the shops should not have to think about putting on reflective gear, someone who goes out in a car a night should be the ** aware pedestrians exist and know to turn their lights on.
      - 4y ago
black3r 4y ago
If there are usable sidewalks and every crosswalk is illuminated by street lights, there's almost no need to wear reflective gear, especially if the speed limit in built-up areas is kept low for safety... it's all about the provided infrastructure..
- mjevans 4y ago
  Time the lights and the crosswalks to the lights. Do not _artificially_ lower a speed limit (people will drive the speed that feels safe) nor _artificially_ make a roadway more dangerous (it will be more dangerous). Or even better still, build a separated pedestrian way. Skybridges, underground shopping district tunnels, all sorts of engineering solutions exist for isolating pedestrian and vehicle traffic entirely which will maximize safety and in climates with adverse weather encourage year round walking.
  - secretsatan 4y ago
    Underground passages are so welcoming at night. Bridges need accessibility, lifts etc, all these are very costly too. Better still, make cars drive slower around pedestrians, increase penalties for cars that hit pedestrians and let them stop thinking that speeding is just something everyone does.
  - danhor 4y ago
    You don't need to make the infrastructure more dangerous to lower speeds, it only needs to feel that way (narrower RoW with some plants around, more constant small curves, ...). If it would be more dangerous at higher speeds, but speeds are decreased due to this, it is often safer in the end. Separate pedestrian ways mostly suck. Segragated infra in very bad weather is used, but in most conditions walking at ground level is preferred. In Germany, many Pedestrian Underpasses (often with shops), Overpasses, Skywalks were abandoned in favor of level-crossings, due to accessability concerns, pedestrian dislike, maintainance hassle and the general tendency of them to get unattractive very quickly.
    - eru 4y ago
makeitdouble 4y ago
> I suspect that also has a negative effect on drivers as it can be extremely difficult to see pedestrians. It seems the best efforts in reducing pedestrian casualties have been in making the road more complicated to drivers. A sister comment mentions making street narrower with more obstacles. I’ve also seen straight street transformed into multicurves ones. Fake pedestrian statues set at crossing points. Fake painting on the road that force the driver to focus etc. And all of these (unfortunately for drivers?) seem to have had a positive effect in the towns that implemented them (at least while the driver doesn’t get used to them in the case of non obstructive setups).
- culebron21 4y ago
  The first part -- narrower lanes and less straight ways (also centerline islands in straight roads, and at intersections) -- are part of Vision Zero approach. The approach is directed at subconscious level and aims to make driver more attentive, not to complicate or irritate. I drove at such roads, it dosen't feel wrong or irritating. No problem to make a left turn behind a centerline island, rather than cut the turn. I feel much unsafer at big "runway" roads. Fake pedestrian statues and painting are the opposite and strogly discouraged, because they distract driver from real pedestrians and numb attention. These are just fantasies of police departments.
walthamstow 4y ago
I think the reflective thing is a red herring and can simply be explained by latitude. It gets dark in northern England at about 3pm in winter, so even earlier in Oslo, whereas Portland is on the same latitude as southern France.
- bombcar 4y ago
  There’s also a difference in areas seen in how pedestrians walk - some cities you will NEVER see a pedestrian enter the road except at a marked crosswalk, others they just walk across at any place. And it’s not 100% clear which is overall safer - the latter can result in drivers always looking but a moment inattentiveness can result in disaster. (The main advantage of slower speeds is the driver can react in time; a pedestrian hit even at 10 mph is not going to do well.)
secretsatan 4y ago
> Another observation was that very few pedestrians wear reflective gear I don't think this is so prevalent everywhere, among cyclists maybe, and maybe if you're planning on walking down some dark country roads with no pavement. Honestly, this one struck me as maybe a step too far, walking around town should not really require protective gear
lucas_membrane 4y ago
> come together to try and improve the safety in the states -- significantly safer walking in Oslo, Norway than in Portland, OR. Portland person here. I drive, and I have some competence at it, no tickets in about 50 years of driving, but it is growing very difficult to drive safely. I am a retired guy who drives at whatever speed I consider safe according to conditions, and I try to follow the rules. But so many drivers are in such a rush, so many bicylists drive like stunt men, and the time pressures of modern life and road systems overloaded with cars probably damage safety seriously by raising everyone's stress and pulse rate. The traffic engineers (or the bureaucrats) who control the traffic controls know that the fewer people who drive, the safer we all will be, but that relationship only holds when other factors are constant. We have road and traffic systems now that seem to be designed purely to discourage driving. Like everyone other than the driver (buses, trolleys, bicycles, roller-skaters, skateboarders, pedal-powered delivery trucks, ...) has the right-of-way and the driver is presumed wrong if any encounter, however illogical and incomprehensible, with the other modes of transportation should occur. Too many creative, novel, and unfathomable patterns of paint on the pavement that mostly are supposed to create safe zones for the other modes without any safety-preserving and unambiguous physical barriers; too many directions to look (like six at many intersections) from which people may be getting into a driver's path in less than a second. Did I mention that about zero percent of the municipal experts who come up with all this chaos are within 20 years of my demographic, so they have no idea of what percentage of the population has to have a very very good day as a driver to not raise anyone else's eyebrows or scare themselves to death. This situation is just another obvious sign that the auto-centric economy is not benign. I rarely drive more than twice in a week, but those trips would cost around 20 percent of my Social Security and 20 percent of my time if I tried to do them without a personal vehicle. It seems like the most likely shot we have at de-fanging the horrible auto is that the huge number of drivers will clog the roads and foul the air so much that no one will want to drive any more, so we'll have to find a better way.
globular-toast 4y ago
Why should pedestrians wear protective gear? It's like telling non-smokers to wear respirators if they don't want to passively smoke. Going outside should be the normal default and shouldn't require suiting up like you're going into battle. The difference you describe is more cultural. In Europe most people who are able to walk regularly. Cars are used for longer distances and perhaps a few super lazy people. But generally everyone knows what it's like to walk. Most people don't know what it's like to cycle, though. So people get angry at cyclists all the time. In the US people don't even walk. Walking is seen as a leisure pursuit, not as a way to get around. So basically pedestrians are treated the same way cyclists are here. It essentially boils down to empathy. People who have only ever used a car can't relate to people outside of a car. They can't imagine what it's like being exposed to the elements or having to actually expend energy to move. You'll see people completely soak pedestrians or cyclists by driving through puddles. Or getting frustrated that cyclists aren't going above 20mph because they have no fossil fuel assistance. I think if everyone was required to work their way up to having the responsibility of operating a car things would be much better. I think at least a year spent using a bicycle or other non-motorised vehicle should be required before being able to use a car. Pilots don't get straight into jumbo jets as soon as they've learnt to walk. Why do we let people get straight into cars?
- bombcar 4y ago
  Most areas don’t let you drive a car until 16 or even 18: but whether people are shuttled around before that or transport themselves.
throw009 4y ago
> In Norway, pedestrians are expected to wear reflective gear and drivers The fuck they are. Pedestrians, viz. anyone walking, is not expected to wear anything but clothes.
cloverich 4y ago
Portland OR is a funny example. We recently moved here from TX and by far the biggest thing that stood out to us is how frequently people stop to let us cross the road. Something I would occasionally see in TX, you see literally constantly here -- it's generally expected to yield to pedestrians. I'm unsure if it's law or culture, but it is very different than other places I have visited. And yet, the in regards to pedestrian safety it _feels_ less safe for pedestrians here. The visibility is simply much lower in the winter, the roads are smaller, the lights dimmer, and the walkers more abundant. It's a very interesting difference from TX and a few other places I've been.

_Wintermute 4y ago

> the inconvenience of having to yield to a pedestrian was some kind of trigger I've experienced this in the UK as well using a zebra crossing. A driver decided to accelerate at me and then slam on the brakes as late as possible, then lean out the window to swear and tell me to get out the way. It definitely seems like extremely aggressive driving has become more common over the last few years. Not sure if it's just driving or the general attitude of people due to covid, inflation etc causing people to have shorter fuses.

robflynn 4y ago
The same thing happened to me recently! I had the walk indicator lit, crossing in a cross walk, someone comes speeding up to me and stopped and yelled at me to "get my ass out of the road." Someone else drove up on the sidewalk and almost hit me -- they were on their phone when it happened. People are nuts.
tarsinge 4y ago
My pet theory is lot of people overextended themselves due to easy financing[0] and are perpetually frustrated when driving due to the insatisfaction of getting very little of what they imagined. They are just commuting like everyone else but with an additional big bad financial decision. Pedestrians, bicycles, other drivers, everything then become an instant scapegoat for their frustration. [0]https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-02-14/new-car-prices-are-so-high-only-rich-americans-can-afford-them https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-02-14/new-car-p...
- febusravenga 4y ago
  > Pedestrians, bicycles, other drivers, everything then become an instant scapegoat for their frustration Yeah, but if you yell at other drivers, they don't hear you so you can do it safely. If you yell (possibly with open window) to pedestrian/biker they hear you and "take harm" (however small it is). Another "priviledge" od being in car. Total isolation, including isolation from consequences of your own dick moves. The very social situation of being canned box is reason for so much frustration of drivers. When you're on bike/feet you behave much better usually.
atchoo 4y ago
It sounds like a variety of road rage which is an interesting psychological phenomena. There is something about that act of driving and the environment of a drivers seat that breeds maladaptive emotional responses. I think it's partly being alone and disconnected from other road users that generates runaway sense of entitlement and cooking off emotionally without any regulating social factors. I think that both driving and internet use have a common de-socialisation effect fuelling similar negative behaviours.
secretsatan 4y ago
One time a guy had to brake real hard as he almost ran a red light as I was crossing, he beeped at my and i told him to f himself, he drove the car around the block and assaulted me.
- Rediscover 4y ago
  I am sorry that happened to You. That sucks. I've had sorta-similar experiences, but I've probably provoked them... If I have the right-of-way,e.g., stop sign AND I'm in the street when the automobile is 3/4 of the block away and they still try blowing through the intersection with me being in front of them... I either grab as high [front of the vehicle] as I can if I'm getting run-over, or, if a near-miss, I park one of my heavy boots into the side of their car (not recommended, I tend to dent it but I get tossed to the ground by their velocity). I live in Seattle, Belltown specifically, for 20 years, and spend much time in Pike Place Market [0]. I've worn a long black coat for the past 40 years; and this stuff only happens during daylight. The people who "circle around" to confront are rare. In those situations I behave calmly, explain what is going on, and most of the the time, we walk away. Now to atone... I do not put up with this in my neighborhood. I am lucky that I call an Attorney. Instead of seeing another "blah foo blah person...getting harassed by a "bum" I find either a compassionate human who figures-it-out or a dick-w that wants to punch me out.
jbirer 4y ago
Just massive sense of entitlement, either bred by spoiling children, or by abuse, breeding a "might is right" mentality.

unyttigfjelltol 4y ago

For some reason it's much easier to buy black or charcoal outerwear than something bright and reflective. I myself am baffled by this. As for the Prius-- something happened in the last few years and horrible, anti-social driving became much more prevalent. There were always a few... but now those folks seem to be everywhere, tailgating, aggressively ignoring crosswalks, damaging property and driving away. It's still not mainstream behavior, but it's very visible lately.

renox 4y ago
> For some reason it's much easier to buy black or charcoal outerwear than something bright and reflective. I myself am baffled by this. That's the same thing in France especially for winter clothes, and given that night are longer in winter that's makes it even worse!
- ksimukka 4y ago
  Now that I think about it, the same can be said about outerwear here in Norway, but I just realised that I’m used to seeing the reflective band or vest standout.
oblio 4y ago
Bright colors are generally a lot more controversial than dark ones. You can see it in business attire.
influx 4y ago
There are many people who lost their minds over the past two years and haven’t recovered. It doesn’t help that many cities stopped routine traffic enforcement during the same period.

slhck 4y ago

It's apparently not in the interest of traffic engineers in the U.S. to care for pedestrian (or cyclist) safety. It's been this way since the post-war area where everything was built for cars, and this seems to have manifested in peoples' minds like the concrete they built. Hard to remove this. People seem to fight over minor improvements (like adding a protected bike lane or making safer crosswalks) while a drastic change would be necessary (like building completely different roads or changing underlying laws). I'd recommend checking out the "Not Just Bikes" YouTube channel for some interesting observations on the differences between the U.S. and Europe when it comes to traffic safety. Also, Strong Towns is a resource you might want to check out: https://www.strongtowns.org/ https://www.strongtowns.org/

oblio 4y ago
> It's apparently not in the interest of traffic engineers in the U.S. to care for pedestrian (or cyclist) safety. Knowing the average engineer, traffic engineers probably care about a lot of things. What usually happens is that someone higher up (politicians, city administrators, etc) set up an incentive system that forces the engineers' hand. Stuff like: "Increase car traffic speed in region X by Y% in 2023".
- consp 4y ago
  Funny you mention that metric since it happens often and is irrelevant since throughput would be way more interesting since it is often chosen as a metric to "solve" congestion, especially total throughput (including not cars) would most likely increase the total speed (in general) for all commuters due to limiting congestion. Don't mention to car-centric politicians the most effective speed for safe throughput is about 40kph/25mph and not 120/75.
  - eru 4y ago
    > Don't mention to car-centric politicians the most effective speed for safe throughput is about 40kph/25mph and not 120/75. I would assume that depends on the road in question? Eg Autobahn vs dirt road? If not, that would be a very interesting result!

ecuaflo 4y ago

In other countries pedestrians don’t have the right of way and the US has a lot more immigrants than Norway so it may just be that driver didn’t learn the laws here

oblio 4y ago
> US has a lot more immigrants than Norway so it may just be that driver didn’t learn the laws here In absolute numbers, yes. Percentage-wise? No. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/immigration-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/immigrati... Norway ........... 852,238 ............. 15.72% United States ... 50,632,836 ........ 15.28%

TomK32 4y ago

On the reflective gear, such thinking only shifts the blame from the drivers to the pedestrians. It's the car that has the light, the driver that controls the speed and it's their responsibility to be able to stop their car quickly enough. After all distraction and speeding are the main causes for accidents here in Austria, reflective gear can't change that. The solution to reduce distraction and speeding is changing the road layout so drivers feel less comfortable to speed. Narrower roads, trees, speed bumps, even cobble stones will do the trick.

mytailorisrich 4y ago
Blame is not always 100% on one side. If it is difficult to see you, especially at night, it is dangerous for you and cars (obviously more for you as pedestrian) even if drivers are prudent. Help cars and help yourself by being visible.
- secretsatan 4y ago
  I don't see why walking around town should need protective gear, maybe we should wear helmets too?
  - macintux 4y ago
    If a driver turns off all their lights and gets hit, you don’t think the driver shares some of the blame? Pedestrians wearing dark clothes at night are almost invisible. Until we put sidewalks and bright crosswalks on every street in the country, wearing reflective clothes is common sense. Comparing that to a helmet mandate is absurd.
    - secretsatan 4y ago
      Ugh, talk about a false equivalence No, someone who pops out to the shops should not have to think about putting on reflective gear, someone who goes out in a car a night should be the ** aware pedestrians exist and know to turn their lights on.
    - 4y ago

black3r 4y ago

If there are usable sidewalks and every crosswalk is illuminated by street lights, there's almost no need to wear reflective gear, especially if the speed limit in built-up areas is kept low for safety... it's all about the provided infrastructure..

mjevans 4y ago
Time the lights and the crosswalks to the lights. Do not _artificially_ lower a speed limit (people will drive the speed that feels safe) nor _artificially_ make a roadway more dangerous (it will be more dangerous). Or even better still, build a separated pedestrian way. Skybridges, underground shopping district tunnels, all sorts of engineering solutions exist for isolating pedestrian and vehicle traffic entirely which will maximize safety and in climates with adverse weather encourage year round walking.
- secretsatan 4y ago
  Underground passages are so welcoming at night. Bridges need accessibility, lifts etc, all these are very costly too. Better still, make cars drive slower around pedestrians, increase penalties for cars that hit pedestrians and let them stop thinking that speeding is just something everyone does.
- danhor 4y ago
  You don't need to make the infrastructure more dangerous to lower speeds, it only needs to feel that way (narrower RoW with some plants around, more constant small curves, ...). If it would be more dangerous at higher speeds, but speeds are decreased due to this, it is often safer in the end. Separate pedestrian ways mostly suck. Segragated infra in very bad weather is used, but in most conditions walking at ground level is preferred. In Germany, many Pedestrian Underpasses (often with shops), Overpasses, Skywalks were abandoned in favor of level-crossings, due to accessability concerns, pedestrian dislike, maintainance hassle and the general tendency of them to get unattractive very quickly.
  - eru 4y ago

makeitdouble 4y ago

> I suspect that also has a negative effect on drivers as it can be extremely difficult to see pedestrians. It seems the best efforts in reducing pedestrian casualties have been in making the road more complicated to drivers. A sister comment mentions making street narrower with more obstacles. I’ve also seen straight street transformed into multicurves ones. Fake pedestrian statues set at crossing points. Fake painting on the road that force the driver to focus etc. And all of these (unfortunately for drivers?) seem to have had a positive effect in the towns that implemented them (at least while the driver doesn’t get used to them in the case of non obstructive setups).

culebron21 4y ago
The first part -- narrower lanes and less straight ways (also centerline islands in straight roads, and at intersections) -- are part of Vision Zero approach. The approach is directed at subconscious level and aims to make driver more attentive, not to complicate or irritate. I drove at such roads, it dosen't feel wrong or irritating. No problem to make a left turn behind a centerline island, rather than cut the turn. I feel much unsafer at big "runway" roads. Fake pedestrian statues and painting are the opposite and strogly discouraged, because they distract driver from real pedestrians and numb attention. These are just fantasies of police departments.

walthamstow 4y ago

I think the reflective thing is a red herring and can simply be explained by latitude. It gets dark in northern England at about 3pm in winter, so even earlier in Oslo, whereas Portland is on the same latitude as southern France.

bombcar 4y ago
There’s also a difference in areas seen in how pedestrians walk - some cities you will NEVER see a pedestrian enter the road except at a marked crosswalk, others they just walk across at any place. And it’s not 100% clear which is overall safer - the latter can result in drivers always looking but a moment inattentiveness can result in disaster. (The main advantage of slower speeds is the driver can react in time; a pedestrian hit even at 10 mph is not going to do well.)

secretsatan 4y ago

> Another observation was that very few pedestrians wear reflective gear I don't think this is so prevalent everywhere, among cyclists maybe, and maybe if you're planning on walking down some dark country roads with no pavement. Honestly, this one struck me as maybe a step too far, walking around town should not really require protective gear

lucas_membrane 4y ago

> come together to try and improve the safety in the states -- significantly safer walking in Oslo, Norway than in Portland, OR. Portland person here. I drive, and I have some competence at it, no tickets in about 50 years of driving, but it is growing very difficult to drive safely. I am a retired guy who drives at whatever speed I consider safe according to conditions, and I try to follow the rules. But so many drivers are in such a rush, so many bicylists drive like stunt men, and the time pressures of modern life and road systems overloaded with cars probably damage safety seriously by raising everyone's stress and pulse rate. The traffic engineers (or the bureaucrats) who control the traffic controls know that the fewer people who drive, the safer we all will be, but that relationship only holds when other factors are constant. We have road and traffic systems now that seem to be designed purely to discourage driving. Like everyone other than the driver (buses, trolleys, bicycles, roller-skaters, skateboarders, pedal-powered delivery trucks, ...) has the right-of-way and the driver is presumed wrong if any encounter, however illogical and incomprehensible, with the other modes of transportation should occur. Too many creative, novel, and unfathomable patterns of paint on the pavement that mostly are supposed to create safe zones for the other modes without any safety-preserving and unambiguous physical barriers; too many directions to look (like six at many intersections) from which people may be getting into a driver's path in less than a second. Did I mention that about zero percent of the municipal experts who come up with all this chaos are within 20 years of my demographic, so they have no idea of what percentage of the population has to have a very very good day as a driver to not raise anyone else's eyebrows or scare themselves to death. This situation is just another obvious sign that the auto-centric economy is not benign. I rarely drive more than twice in a week, but those trips would cost around 20 percent of my Social Security and 20 percent of my time if I tried to do them without a personal vehicle. It seems like the most likely shot we have at de-fanging the horrible auto is that the huge number of drivers will clog the roads and foul the air so much that no one will want to drive any more, so we'll have to find a better way.

globular-toast 4y ago

Why should pedestrians wear protective gear? It's like telling non-smokers to wear respirators if they don't want to passively smoke. Going outside should be the normal default and shouldn't require suiting up like you're going into battle. The difference you describe is more cultural. In Europe most people who are able to walk regularly. Cars are used for longer distances and perhaps a few super lazy people. But generally everyone knows what it's like to walk. Most people don't know what it's like to cycle, though. So people get angry at cyclists all the time. In the US people don't even walk. Walking is seen as a leisure pursuit, not as a way to get around. So basically pedestrians are treated the same way cyclists are here. It essentially boils down to empathy. People who have only ever used a car can't relate to people outside of a car. They can't imagine what it's like being exposed to the elements or having to actually expend energy to move. You'll see people completely soak pedestrians or cyclists by driving through puddles. Or getting frustrated that cyclists aren't going above 20mph because they have no fossil fuel assistance. I think if everyone was required to work their way up to having the responsibility of operating a car things would be much better. I think at least a year spent using a bicycle or other non-motorised vehicle should be required before being able to use a car. Pilots don't get straight into jumbo jets as soon as they've learnt to walk. Why do we let people get straight into cars?

bombcar 4y ago
Most areas don’t let you drive a car until 16 or even 18: but whether people are shuttled around before that or transport themselves.

throw009 4y ago

> In Norway, pedestrians are expected to wear reflective gear and drivers The fuck they are. Pedestrians, viz. anyone walking, is not expected to wear anything but clothes.

cloverich 4y ago

Portland OR is a funny example. We recently moved here from TX and by far the biggest thing that stood out to us is how frequently people stop to let us cross the road. Something I would occasionally see in TX, you see literally constantly here -- it's generally expected to yield to pedestrians. I'm unsure if it's law or culture, but it is very different than other places I have visited. And yet, the in regards to pedestrian safety it _feels_ less safe for pedestrians here. The visibility is simply much lower in the winter, the roads are smaller, the lights dimmer, and the walkers more abundant. It's a very interesting difference from TX and a few other places I've been.