10 ms·

The day I must sleep on the floor to meet a deadline would be the day I would never work there again. Also, unless it is MY business I wouldn't grind this hard

by avgDev 4y ago

The day I must sleep on the floor to meet a deadline would be the day I would never work there again. Also, unless it is MY business I wouldn't grind this hard. I can put it some extra hours once a year. But if its a failure of management then I will maybe save them once. Then, they can do the job themselves after my 40 hours. If an individual told me they slept at the office to meet deadlines, I would tell them to seek treatment as that isn't normal.

Ekaros 4y ago
If I were to sleep on the floor to meet deadlines. I better be paid 200% OT for hours I slept...
- irl_chad 4y ago
  When working hospital shifts, I routinely took naps whenever possible. I personally wouldn’t hire an engineer with your sense of entitlement, because you would be very difficult to manage and probably wouldn’t produce the same results as your other team-player colleagues.
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    I didn't say I wouldn't do it. I'm just saying that I expect to be paid for your failures on most likely planning. As if you had done your job properly I would not be expected to work so much that I don't have time to commute to home to sleep.
  - tpxl 4y ago
    The fucking entitlement to call someone not a team-player for going home to sleep.
  - unmole 4y ago
    And I wouldn't want to work for someone who thinks not wanting to sleep in the office was an entitlement.
  - afavour 4y ago
    If you find it difficult to manage a software engineer because they want to go home and sleep in their own bed at night then you're an absolutely failed manager. I'm sorry.
  - avgDev 4y ago
    I wouldn't want to work with/for people who have so little respect for their own time anyway.
  - red-iron-pine 4y ago
    Hospitals work extra long shifts because every time there is a shift change there is, statistically speaking, a chance for errors. Those errors in hand-offs kill people, and they found that 12 hour shifts and fewer hand-offs save peoples lives. The rest of the hospital just kinda follows that mantra. And that makes sense -- everyone works that way in the hospital and no one dies. That ain't how software dev works, and no one is going to die or go into insulin shock because Twitter didn't push a UI update to Prod on schedule.
  - jrochkind1 4y ago
    Did you get paid for the hours you were napping at work? That is, were they during a paid shift?
ctvo 4y ago
> Then, they can do the job themselves after my 40 hours. Are you in the US? Do you work for hourly wages? I've always been confused why salaried workers think they only need to work 40 hours a week. There's an employment agreement between you and your employer with expectations on what tasks you'll perform. Rarely (never in my experience) does the agreement include you only work 40 hours a week. I don't have an issue with your overall sentiment. I'm mostly confused about conflating things like overtime and a 40 hour work week when most folks in tech in the US are salaried workers.
- afavour 4y ago
  Just reasonable expectations, that's all. My contract doesn't state "your manager won't scream in your face" but if he does I'm going to quit all the same. At-will employment is definitely a double edged sword but it does give employees the power to tell their employer to get lost if they're being unreasonable, even if it isn't written in something legally binding.
- rat9988 4y ago
  Rarely these expectations are explicit anyway. So i'm not sure what you are trying to tell. Should we solve a one year project in a year? Cultural norms matter.
- milankragujevic 4y ago
  My employment contract in Europe includes 40 hours per week, mon-fri. Overtime is paid and limited.
- ethanbond 4y ago
  > I've always been confused why salaried workers think they only need to work 40 hours a week Self-respect/their own lines in the sand? I don’t think anyone is under the illusion they can’t be fired for holding this position given that you can be fired in the US for ~anything. Doesn’t mean it’s a nonsense position to hold.
  - ctvo 4y ago
    > Doesn’t mean it’s a nonsense position to hold. I'm not sure on that. It's backed by very little legally or culturally. Lawyers, doctors, finance professionals, and other high paying, salaried professions include the expectation of more working hours, many times unexpectedly, to get the work done. Wanting the higher wages associated with a salaried position but the stability of hourly work seems like it's backed by little but personal entitlement.
Jamesbeam 4y ago
"If an individual told me they slept at the office to meet deadlines, I would tell them to seek treatment as that isn't normal." This is reasonable advise if you're an average worker, who can be replaced by thousands of others, but if you're the only one being able to do the Job in your company, or even one of a hand full of people in your industry to do what you do, you need to change perspective a bit. Almost two decades ago, before I became a PMC, I got hired as a Marketing Specialist for a Taiwanese computer components manufacturer that wanted to expand their core business into the high-end consumer segment. When I started working there it was completely expected to show up to work two hours before you were contractual obliged and work overtime each day. Coming from a cultural background where you clock out when it's time and don't give a f*ck, I thought as well this was nuts. But for my Taiwanese co-workers this wasn't an issue at all and they were happy, and so I adapted to their work culture, sometimes we slept in the office, showered and had breakfast there together. It was a great time. We blew the competition completely out of the water because we simply outworked them and in return, besides getting casino money to spend on the weekends and other benefits, we each got the equivalent of a million dollars in local currency as a bonus by the end of the year and another one deposited as retainer with one of the best law firms in the country so we didn't really have to worry about anything. My youngest brother got severely ill and needed experimental treatment. The company paid for it. My neighbor started acting up, doing parties all night. The company took care of it. My parents wanted to live closer to me, because my mom got sick not seeing me more than once a year. You guess it, they bought the flat next to me and had them move in for Christmas without me knowing. That money helped me to start my own business and become independent later. My work ethics never changed. During my career I slept on floors, in bathtubs, once on a park bench, and never stopped working until the job was done. I am sure that whoever survived at Twitter until now, is reaping these kind of benefits I know from my time grinding for a billionaire. There is nothing wrong with sleeping on the floor to meet a deadline, even regularly, if you know it's worth for whom you do it and why you do it.
- allarm 4y ago
  > There is nothing wrong with sleeping on the floor to meet a deadline, even regularly, if you know it's worth for whom you do it Except there’s basically everything wrong about it.
hellomyguys 4y ago
I can't imagine the benefit of sleeping in the office, especially as a PM. What is a PM doing around the clock to help ship any feature beyond helping morale?
papito 4y ago
The problem is that the very young employees for whom this may be their first job do not have the context. Looking back, I gave away a lot of my work-life balance and health on office heroics to make others look good. It takes working at a mis-managed place and then working at a functional company to know what is normal and what is just a bunch of Dunning-Krugers running around creating crises because that's how they think "management" works.

by avgDev 4y ago

Ekaros 4y ago

If I were to sleep on the floor to meet deadlines. I better be paid 200% OT for hours I slept...

irl_chad 4y ago
When working hospital shifts, I routinely took naps whenever possible. I personally wouldn’t hire an engineer with your sense of entitlement, because you would be very difficult to manage and probably wouldn’t produce the same results as your other team-player colleagues.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  I didn't say I wouldn't do it. I'm just saying that I expect to be paid for your failures on most likely planning. As if you had done your job properly I would not be expected to work so much that I don't have time to commute to home to sleep.
- tpxl 4y ago
  The fucking entitlement to call someone not a team-player for going home to sleep.
- unmole 4y ago
  And I wouldn't want to work for someone who thinks not wanting to sleep in the office was an entitlement.
- afavour 4y ago
  If you find it difficult to manage a software engineer because they want to go home and sleep in their own bed at night then you're an absolutely failed manager. I'm sorry.
- avgDev 4y ago
  I wouldn't want to work with/for people who have so little respect for their own time anyway.
- red-iron-pine 4y ago
  Hospitals work extra long shifts because every time there is a shift change there is, statistically speaking, a chance for errors. Those errors in hand-offs kill people, and they found that 12 hour shifts and fewer hand-offs save peoples lives. The rest of the hospital just kinda follows that mantra. And that makes sense -- everyone works that way in the hospital and no one dies. That ain't how software dev works, and no one is going to die or go into insulin shock because Twitter didn't push a UI update to Prod on schedule.
- jrochkind1 4y ago
  Did you get paid for the hours you were napping at work? That is, were they during a paid shift?

ctvo 4y ago

> Then, they can do the job themselves after my 40 hours. Are you in the US? Do you work for hourly wages? I've always been confused why salaried workers think they only need to work 40 hours a week. There's an employment agreement between you and your employer with expectations on what tasks you'll perform. Rarely (never in my experience) does the agreement include you only work 40 hours a week. I don't have an issue with your overall sentiment. I'm mostly confused about conflating things like overtime and a 40 hour work week when most folks in tech in the US are salaried workers.

afavour 4y ago
Just reasonable expectations, that's all. My contract doesn't state "your manager won't scream in your face" but if he does I'm going to quit all the same. At-will employment is definitely a double edged sword but it does give employees the power to tell their employer to get lost if they're being unreasonable, even if it isn't written in something legally binding.
rat9988 4y ago
Rarely these expectations are explicit anyway. So i'm not sure what you are trying to tell. Should we solve a one year project in a year? Cultural norms matter.
milankragujevic 4y ago
My employment contract in Europe includes 40 hours per week, mon-fri. Overtime is paid and limited.
ethanbond 4y ago
> I've always been confused why salaried workers think they only need to work 40 hours a week Self-respect/their own lines in the sand? I don’t think anyone is under the illusion they can’t be fired for holding this position given that you can be fired in the US for ~anything. Doesn’t mean it’s a nonsense position to hold.
- ctvo 4y ago
  > Doesn’t mean it’s a nonsense position to hold. I'm not sure on that. It's backed by very little legally or culturally. Lawyers, doctors, finance professionals, and other high paying, salaried professions include the expectation of more working hours, many times unexpectedly, to get the work done. Wanting the higher wages associated with a salaried position but the stability of hourly work seems like it's backed by little but personal entitlement.

Jamesbeam 4y ago

"If an individual told me they slept at the office to meet deadlines, I would tell them to seek treatment as that isn't normal." This is reasonable advise if you're an average worker, who can be replaced by thousands of others, but if you're the only one being able to do the Job in your company, or even one of a hand full of people in your industry to do what you do, you need to change perspective a bit. Almost two decades ago, before I became a PMC, I got hired as a Marketing Specialist for a Taiwanese computer components manufacturer that wanted to expand their core business into the high-end consumer segment. When I started working there it was completely expected to show up to work two hours before you were contractual obliged and work overtime each day. Coming from a cultural background where you clock out when it's time and don't give a f*ck, I thought as well this was nuts. But for my Taiwanese co-workers this wasn't an issue at all and they were happy, and so I adapted to their work culture, sometimes we slept in the office, showered and had breakfast there together. It was a great time. We blew the competition completely out of the water because we simply outworked them and in return, besides getting casino money to spend on the weekends and other benefits, we each got the equivalent of a million dollars in local currency as a bonus by the end of the year and another one deposited as retainer with one of the best law firms in the country so we didn't really have to worry about anything. My youngest brother got severely ill and needed experimental treatment. The company paid for it. My neighbor started acting up, doing parties all night. The company took care of it. My parents wanted to live closer to me, because my mom got sick not seeing me more than once a year. You guess it, they bought the flat next to me and had them move in for Christmas without me knowing. That money helped me to start my own business and become independent later. My work ethics never changed. During my career I slept on floors, in bathtubs, once on a park bench, and never stopped working until the job was done. I am sure that whoever survived at Twitter until now, is reaping these kind of benefits I know from my time grinding for a billionaire. There is nothing wrong with sleeping on the floor to meet a deadline, even regularly, if you know it's worth for whom you do it and why you do it.

allarm 4y ago
> There is nothing wrong with sleeping on the floor to meet a deadline, even regularly, if you know it's worth for whom you do it Except there’s basically everything wrong about it.

hellomyguys 4y ago

I can't imagine the benefit of sleeping in the office, especially as a PM. What is a PM doing around the clock to help ship any feature beyond helping morale?

papito 4y ago

The problem is that the very young employees for whom this may be their first job do not have the context. Looking back, I gave away a lot of my work-life balance and health on office heroics to make others look good. It takes working at a mis-managed place and then working at a functional company to know what is normal and what is just a bunch of Dunning-Krugers running around creating crises because that's how they think "management" works.