12 ms·

In an amateur context, I've paced about a half dozen races, half marathon and marathon distance. I've also served as a pacer for runners in the second half of a

by js2 4y ago

In an amateur context, I've paced about a half dozen races, half marathon and marathon distance. I've also served as a pacer for runners in the second half of a 100 mile race a couple times. The purpose of a pacer for amateur runners is to set a consistent pace and provide encouragement to runners who may be running their first race at that distance. Or maybe someone trying to set a new PR. Since most courses are not flat, I actually try to run even effort, and explain that is the plan to the runners I'm pacing. So we slow down on the uphills and speed up a bit on the downhills. Yes, runners can use a variety of electronic devices (GPS watches, heart rate monitors, accelerometers on your shoe) to try to set their own pace but none of these are perfect. They also require constant attention. And they don't provide moral support. Even though I'm a fairly experienced runner (25+ marathons), I'll join a pace group myself when running a new course sometimes. A marathon can be mentally exhausting and it's sort of like being able to run on cruise control if you can just fall in next to someone else and rely on them to set pace. Running in a pack is also just easier, not even considering the wind breaking potential depending upon speed and prevailing breeze. On the 100 mile races, runners may have been on their feet for 12+ hours by the midway point and are starting to run into the night. Pacing those runners is really just about moral support and encouragement. Typically they are allowed to pickup a pacer after the 50 mile mark and I'll keep a single runner company for say a 12.5 mile lap and then they can switch to another fresh pacer. So they may get the company of 3-4 pacers in the second half of the race. Another example is that large marathons have guide runners to help those who need assistance. Visually impaired runners. Maybe runners with prosthetics who are concerned about being tripped. Etc. I've never been a guide runner but I'd like to some day. Pacing the 1:50 group in a half marathon: https://i.ibb.co/4gRTjjT/FCC9720-D-4-E4-E-4-F74-91-EF-2-FCB2-F82-D746.jpg https://i.ibb.co/4gRTjjT/FCC9720-D-4-E4-E-4-F74-91-EF-2-FCB2...

_tik_ 4y ago
As a amateur runner. I want to thank you for your service.
wging 4y ago
> Running in a pack is also just easier, not even considering the wind breaking potential depending upon speed and prevailing breeze. It is worth noting that for mid-d races it's not just about countering wind, but also air resistance. There is a significant performance impact even if it's not windy. See for instance https://www.runnersworld.com/training/a20823445/does-drafting-help-in-running https://www.runnersworld.com/training/a20823445/does-draftin...: "Pugh runs some calculations to determine that at 4:30 mile pace, drafting one meter behind another runner on a still day saves about 80% of the energy you'd otherwise spend fighting air resistance. That corresponds to about 1 second per 400 meters at that pace, and more on windy days." (Highly recommend Hutchinson's other work on the running and sports science, btw.) (I am sure you know this. I'm mentioning it for others, because it's applicable to Sowinski's work, far more so than your own pacing for the longer races.)
- morepork 4y ago
  4:30/mile pace is faster than all but the fastest amateur runners, and the effect would I assume be less at a slower pace. 1s/400m is less than 2 minutes over a marathon, so something, but not a huge amount. 1m behind is also pretty close to be directly behind someone, you'd be liable to kick each other.
  - wging 4y ago
    > 4:30/mile pace is faster than all but the fastest amateur runners The article is talking about middle distance running, typically 800m-3000m, not long-distance running. 1s/400m is actually pretty huge in competition. > you'd be liable to kick each other. Front-to-back contact happens sometimes, even in professional races.
    - philipwhiuk 4y ago
      But the parent comment is talking about long distance.
      - wging 4y ago
        I addressed this above: "... because it's applicable to Sowinski's work [meaning middle-distance pacing], far more so than your own pacing for the longer races."
  - js2 4y ago
    Track races are often won in photo finishes. Everything matters. And that 2 minutes over the marathon is currently more than the difference between a sub-2 hour marathon (1:59:40) and not (2:01:09): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliud_Kipchoge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliud_Kipchoge
    - philipwhiuk 4y ago
      Nobody but 'the fastest amateurs' is even doing track. And Kipchoge is both the fastest and not an amateur.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
kashyapc 4y ago
Thanks for this explanation. I'm a newbie runner -- been running for a year-and-a-half. I'm aiming to break the 2hr mark in my 3rd half-marathon next month. My last half-m in Oct 2022 took 2hr9min. I know, 9 minutes is a lot to shave off :-). I'll first aim to finish healthily. Your message encourages me to join a pacer. (The last 5KM of a half-m feel endless.)
- dhsysusbsjsi 4y ago
  Stop eating carbs about 2 months before. I did this and went from a 2:06 to 1:58 with minimal training. My body carried several kg less weight and felt like it could consume its own fat energy more efficiently and I didn’t get the 2/3 slump. I also started last, ran down the 2hr pace guy, then tried to stay 100m ahead of him. It felt primal being chased down by somebody and kept the mind sharp.
  - infamousclyde 4y ago
    This is kind of curious. Isn't that 2/3 energy slump usually associated with the marathon distance, as your body exhausts glycogen reserves? You shouldn't be bonking at 15k. Moreover, I would never recommend to stop eating carbohydrates as a distance runner. I think it's great you lost weight and hit a PB, but I would lean towards consistent training with key workouts and a balanced diet leading up to a race.
    - dhsysusbsjsi 4y ago
      I’m 92kg +/-, 187cm. Run 2x a week 6.5km like clockwork, plus extra fitness 2-3x a week. So heavy guy. I do about one 1/2 marathon a year and train up to 15km. Heart sits at 180-185 by the end. The 18km is definitely a hump where it’s not aerobic fitness but feels like need to push through a mental wall. I don’t think I have the physique for a full marathon without proper preparation but may try next year.
    - kashyapc 4y ago
      Yes! On "diet" — as the saying goes, "you can't outrun a bad diet." I want do some strength training besides the usual bicycling and running 3-4x a week. But I keep dragging my feet with it.
scns 4y ago
> speed up a bit on the downhills That is bad for your knees. [edit] I highly recommend the book Born to Run by Cristopher McDougall.
- js2 4y ago
  My $0.02: Sitting on the couch is bad for your knees. Over-striding is bad for your knees. A weak core is bad for your knees. Running slightly faster on downhills is not bad for your knees. FWIW, I've read nearly every running book there is including that one. I still have healthy knees at 51 and have run tens of thousands of miles on them over all sorts of terrain.
  - twawaaay 4y ago
    See my sibling comment. Repeated stress of right intensity makes bones, joints and tendons stronger. Avoiding all stress is a bad advice I have heard many times in my life I am sick and tired of it. It is the stress that causes the body to need to recover and it is during recovery that it becomes stronger. The only really important thing to remember is that the right intensity is crucial and that it is very easy to suddenly overload a part of your body you have never even been aware of. Even a slight change in technique caused by something like different shoes or an aching toe can shift forces to places that are not ready yet and cause an injury. That's why good running technique is crucial -- because it is nothing else as a discipline to put your body through predictable motions in response to predictable loads. If you can do it you can now make sure your loads don't change too much over time and you should be relatively safe from injuries. Lots of injuries are caused by people running for longer duration but slipping with their technique because, for example, their core muscles get fatigued through the run. And this shifts loads to new places and causes things to get overloaded.
    - js2 4y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34958029 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34958029
- pg314 4y ago
tguvot 4y ago
>Yes, runners can use a variety of electronic devices (GPS watches, heart rate monitors, accelerometers on your shoe) to try to set their own pace but none of these are perfect. They also require constant attention. Yes, those devices do require constant attention, usually by glancing at watch, what is rather distracting. But, something that mostly resolved this deficiency, at least for me, was Garmin Varia Vision - tiny heads up display mounted to sunglasses. it can keep in your eyesight all the relevant metrics. It is a great help for me in outdoor runs
meghan_rain 4y ago
But how do the pacers keep pace?
- cfj 4y ago
  Thousands and thousands of miles of practise. Elite pacers can hit 400 m splits with sub-second accuracy by feel alone.
- flint 4y ago
  At an elite event there are LEDs along the inside of the track that are set to pace at world record pace or what ever pace the meet chooses. The rabbit can pace off the LEDs, or at some interval to the LEDs. Recently there may be multiple paces set by the LEDs.
- js2 4y ago
  In my case, practice, knowing the course, and running close to my easy pace all help. I have a pretty good sense of what different paces feel like, effort wise. But I also use a GPS watch and Stryd pod to monitor my pace in real-time and keep track of my 1 mile and 5K splits. Generally though, runners tend to go out way too fast in a race because they are very excited and should have gone through a taper, so it feels easy while running too fast at the start. Because it's not a race for me, I can avoid that excitement. Then toward the end, they slow down because they went out too fast. Since the entire race is at a relaxed effort for me, I can avoid that too. I also probably haven't spent the last 10 days tapering, so I don't have to really adjust my feel. That said: a few years back I ended up pacing the 4:30 marathon group which was almost 3 minutes/mile below my race pace and I was constantly having to check myself. My preference when pacing is to be close to my easy pace for the distance, not to fast, not too slow.
boppo1 4y ago
How do these runners knees not succumb to problems? Genetic lottery? I run 6 miles on a treadmill with zero drop & pronation inserts, stretch withe a calf wedge & still feel like I'm flying close to the sun with my knees.
- mclouts91 4y ago
  The old myth that running is bad for your knees. It isn’t unless you have a condition. What you may not have is tendons ready for the effort or the right supporting muscles. These can be worked on.
  - felipemnoa 4y ago
    Go on, don't leave us hanging. Any suggestions on a workout to strengthen the muscles?
    - rozenmd 4y ago
      It's one of those "How to get better at x? do x." things for running, lowering your pace to "just above walking" speed will help you run much longer, and develop the muscles needed
    - JLCarveth 4y ago
      Weighted squats
    - patchorang 4y ago
      I’ve found Vlad Xcel to have really good videos for this. For example: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=meeZydx-vhU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=meeZydx-vhU This is paid but also very good. https://uphillathlete.com/product/at-home-strength-training-program/ https://uphillathlete.com/product/at-home-strength-training-... The main thing 90% of people will benefit from is learning to activate their glutes, then strengthening their glutes. Clamshells are a great place to start. A lot of people hurt their knees because their glutes don’t activate and are weak from sitting all day. This forces them to become quad dominate, which puts more strain on the knees.
cafard 4y ago
I went along as handler for a friend at a couple of Old Dominion 100s in the 1980s. The then course took the runners over Massanutten Mountain somewhere around 80 or 85 miles in, and the one year runner could be accompanied for the last 25 miles, the other year for the last 33. The first year I didn't need to accompany for my friend dropped out because of the brutally hot weather. The later year, I split the companion duties with my brother. The thing about ultra-distance races is that the exhaustion can affect the judgment, and the runner and the race are better off having somebody with judgment unimpaired along. Edit: I should add that the course took runners over Massanutten Mountain in the dark. Perhaps the real beasts managed it in daylight, but it was a nighttime leg for lot of good solid runners who were going to get the belt for finishing under 24 hours.
lithos 4y ago
Read the article...

by js2 4y ago

_tik_ 4y ago

As a amateur runner. I want to thank you for your service.

wging 4y ago

> Running in a pack is also just easier, not even considering the wind breaking potential depending upon speed and prevailing breeze. It is worth noting that for mid-d races it's not just about countering wind, but also air resistance. There is a significant performance impact even if it's not windy. See for instance https://www.runnersworld.com/training/a20823445/does-drafting-help-in-running https://www.runnersworld.com/training/a20823445/does-draftin...: "Pugh runs some calculations to determine that at 4:30 mile pace, drafting one meter behind another runner on a still day saves about 80% of the energy you'd otherwise spend fighting air resistance. That corresponds to about 1 second per 400 meters at that pace, and more on windy days." (Highly recommend Hutchinson's other work on the running and sports science, btw.) (I am sure you know this. I'm mentioning it for others, because it's applicable to Sowinski's work, far more so than your own pacing for the longer races.)

morepork 4y ago
4:30/mile pace is faster than all but the fastest amateur runners, and the effect would I assume be less at a slower pace. 1s/400m is less than 2 minutes over a marathon, so something, but not a huge amount. 1m behind is also pretty close to be directly behind someone, you'd be liable to kick each other.
- wging 4y ago
  > 4:30/mile pace is faster than all but the fastest amateur runners The article is talking about middle distance running, typically 800m-3000m, not long-distance running. 1s/400m is actually pretty huge in competition. > you'd be liable to kick each other. Front-to-back contact happens sometimes, even in professional races.
  - philipwhiuk 4y ago
    But the parent comment is talking about long distance.
    - wging 4y ago
      I addressed this above: "... because it's applicable to Sowinski's work [meaning middle-distance pacing], far more so than your own pacing for the longer races."
- js2 4y ago
  Track races are often won in photo finishes. Everything matters. And that 2 minutes over the marathon is currently more than the difference between a sub-2 hour marathon (1:59:40) and not (2:01:09): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliud_Kipchoge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliud_Kipchoge
  - philipwhiuk 4y ago
    Nobody but 'the fastest amateurs' is even doing track. And Kipchoge is both the fastest and not an amateur.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

kashyapc 4y ago

Thanks for this explanation. I'm a newbie runner -- been running for a year-and-a-half. I'm aiming to break the 2hr mark in my 3rd half-marathon next month. My last half-m in Oct 2022 took 2hr9min. I know, 9 minutes is a lot to shave off :-). I'll first aim to finish healthily. Your message encourages me to join a pacer. (The last 5KM of a half-m feel endless.)

dhsysusbsjsi 4y ago
Stop eating carbs about 2 months before. I did this and went from a 2:06 to 1:58 with minimal training. My body carried several kg less weight and felt like it could consume its own fat energy more efficiently and I didn’t get the 2/3 slump. I also started last, ran down the 2hr pace guy, then tried to stay 100m ahead of him. It felt primal being chased down by somebody and kept the mind sharp.
- infamousclyde 4y ago
  This is kind of curious. Isn't that 2/3 energy slump usually associated with the marathon distance, as your body exhausts glycogen reserves? You shouldn't be bonking at 15k. Moreover, I would never recommend to stop eating carbohydrates as a distance runner. I think it's great you lost weight and hit a PB, but I would lean towards consistent training with key workouts and a balanced diet leading up to a race.
  - dhsysusbsjsi 4y ago
    I’m 92kg +/-, 187cm. Run 2x a week 6.5km like clockwork, plus extra fitness 2-3x a week. So heavy guy. I do about one 1/2 marathon a year and train up to 15km. Heart sits at 180-185 by the end. The 18km is definitely a hump where it’s not aerobic fitness but feels like need to push through a mental wall. I don’t think I have the physique for a full marathon without proper preparation but may try next year.
  - kashyapc 4y ago
    Yes! On "diet" — as the saying goes, "you can't outrun a bad diet." I want do some strength training besides the usual bicycling and running 3-4x a week. But I keep dragging my feet with it.

scns 4y ago

> speed up a bit on the downhills That is bad for your knees. [edit] I highly recommend the book Born to Run by Cristopher McDougall.

js2 4y ago
My $0.02: Sitting on the couch is bad for your knees. Over-striding is bad for your knees. A weak core is bad for your knees. Running slightly faster on downhills is not bad for your knees. FWIW, I've read nearly every running book there is including that one. I still have healthy knees at 51 and have run tens of thousands of miles on them over all sorts of terrain.
- twawaaay 4y ago
  See my sibling comment. Repeated stress of right intensity makes bones, joints and tendons stronger. Avoiding all stress is a bad advice I have heard many times in my life I am sick and tired of it. It is the stress that causes the body to need to recover and it is during recovery that it becomes stronger. The only really important thing to remember is that the right intensity is crucial and that it is very easy to suddenly overload a part of your body you have never even been aware of. Even a slight change in technique caused by something like different shoes or an aching toe can shift forces to places that are not ready yet and cause an injury. That's why good running technique is crucial -- because it is nothing else as a discipline to put your body through predictable motions in response to predictable loads. If you can do it you can now make sure your loads don't change too much over time and you should be relatively safe from injuries. Lots of injuries are caused by people running for longer duration but slipping with their technique because, for example, their core muscles get fatigued through the run. And this shifts loads to new places and causes things to get overloaded.
  - js2 4y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34958029 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34958029
pg314 4y ago

tguvot 4y ago

>Yes, runners can use a variety of electronic devices (GPS watches, heart rate monitors, accelerometers on your shoe) to try to set their own pace but none of these are perfect. They also require constant attention. Yes, those devices do require constant attention, usually by glancing at watch, what is rather distracting. But, something that mostly resolved this deficiency, at least for me, was Garmin Varia Vision - tiny heads up display mounted to sunglasses. it can keep in your eyesight all the relevant metrics. It is a great help for me in outdoor runs

meghan_rain 4y ago

But how do the pacers keep pace?

cfj 4y ago
Thousands and thousands of miles of practise. Elite pacers can hit 400 m splits with sub-second accuracy by feel alone.
flint 4y ago
At an elite event there are LEDs along the inside of the track that are set to pace at world record pace or what ever pace the meet chooses. The rabbit can pace off the LEDs, or at some interval to the LEDs. Recently there may be multiple paces set by the LEDs.
js2 4y ago
In my case, practice, knowing the course, and running close to my easy pace all help. I have a pretty good sense of what different paces feel like, effort wise. But I also use a GPS watch and Stryd pod to monitor my pace in real-time and keep track of my 1 mile and 5K splits. Generally though, runners tend to go out way too fast in a race because they are very excited and should have gone through a taper, so it feels easy while running too fast at the start. Because it's not a race for me, I can avoid that excitement. Then toward the end, they slow down because they went out too fast. Since the entire race is at a relaxed effort for me, I can avoid that too. I also probably haven't spent the last 10 days tapering, so I don't have to really adjust my feel. That said: a few years back I ended up pacing the 4:30 marathon group which was almost 3 minutes/mile below my race pace and I was constantly having to check myself. My preference when pacing is to be close to my easy pace for the distance, not to fast, not too slow.

boppo1 4y ago

How do these runners knees not succumb to problems? Genetic lottery? I run 6 miles on a treadmill with zero drop & pronation inserts, stretch withe a calf wedge & still feel like I'm flying close to the sun with my knees.

mclouts91 4y ago
The old myth that running is bad for your knees. It isn’t unless you have a condition. What you may not have is tendons ready for the effort or the right supporting muscles. These can be worked on.
- felipemnoa 4y ago
  Go on, don't leave us hanging. Any suggestions on a workout to strengthen the muscles?
  - rozenmd 4y ago
    It's one of those "How to get better at x? do x." things for running, lowering your pace to "just above walking" speed will help you run much longer, and develop the muscles needed
  - JLCarveth 4y ago
    Weighted squats
  - patchorang 4y ago
    I’ve found Vlad Xcel to have really good videos for this. For example: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=meeZydx-vhU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=meeZydx-vhU This is paid but also very good. https://uphillathlete.com/product/at-home-strength-training-program/ https://uphillathlete.com/product/at-home-strength-training-... The main thing 90% of people will benefit from is learning to activate their glutes, then strengthening their glutes. Clamshells are a great place to start. A lot of people hurt their knees because their glutes don’t activate and are weak from sitting all day. This forces them to become quad dominate, which puts more strain on the knees.

cafard 4y ago

I went along as handler for a friend at a couple of Old Dominion 100s in the 1980s. The then course took the runners over Massanutten Mountain somewhere around 80 or 85 miles in, and the one year runner could be accompanied for the last 25 miles, the other year for the last 33. The first year I didn't need to accompany for my friend dropped out because of the brutally hot weather. The later year, I split the companion duties with my brother. The thing about ultra-distance races is that the exhaustion can affect the judgment, and the runner and the race are better off having somebody with judgment unimpaired along. Edit: I should add that the course took runners over Massanutten Mountain in the dark. Perhaps the real beasts managed it in daylight, but it was a nighttime leg for lot of good solid runners who were going to get the belt for finishing under 24 hours.

lithos 4y ago

Read the article...