7 ms·

This really goes to show what depending on online authentication from a large corp can do. Even worse, Microsoft is now trying to force online accounts onto Wi

by capybara_2020 4y ago

This really goes to show what depending on online authentication from a large corp can do. Even worse, Microsoft is now trying to force online accounts onto Windows machines. Google already does it with Android. Which means for some reason if you lose access to your email, you are locked out of not only your online accounts but your local devices also. We really need to separate authentication from services and devices. With strong safe guards around that account and an actually support system.

amatecha 4y ago
Yeah, that shit is why I took a brand-new NVIDIA Shield back to the store immediately after getting it home - it literally cannot be used without signing into a Google account. I bought it thinking, "hey nice, I can use this 4K Android home theatre device without Google being involved, since it's from NVIDIA and thus hopefully free of all that crap". I even did my homework on this: no material included with the product, nor NVIDIA's online product page, indicated that an Android account is strictly required to actually use the product. I ended up doing some more searching after returning the product, and finally found a singular customer support page that happens to mention it. Gotta love it...
- visarga 4y ago
  > and finally found a singular customer support page that happens to mention it That's the kind of results Google should be surfacing, but it lost the game, it is so useless now for precision searching.
  - ta1243 4y ago
    Google should be surfacing things which paint google in a bad light?
    - oarsinsync 4y ago
      Why does an Android TV device requiring a Google account paint Google in a bad light? If I’m all-in on the Google/Android ecosystem, this is a positive! It works even better! The alternative is that the people behind the Nvidia Shield are intentionally user hostile / acting with malice, in cooperation with Google? The idea that the account requirement is positive or negative is a hugely subjective one. The fact is it’s needed. Whether it’s positive or negative is largely irrelevant. The fact should be surfaced.
    - rmellow 4y ago
      It does. "Google search sucks" returns what you'd expect. What GP is getting at is that Google Search breaks down often when you're looking for a very specific result, but one that is uncommon enough. Instead, you're often diverted to a "related" query result without them telling you.
      - visarga 4y ago
        If you search "What is the world record for crossing the English Channel entirely on foot?" Google would respond with swimming, boats, pedalling etc but miss the ones where people crossed on foot through the Channel Tunnel. An improbable search is almost impossible to do on Google. They will replace it with unrelated but similar results. Even when you specify a strong condition, it will just ignore it and return the exact opposite. It's no better than LLM hallucination. There are pairs of words that are very similar, but semantically different. Like "latitude" and "longitude" or "first name" and "last name". Google's model can't make fine distinctions between related (like latitude and longitude) and semantically equivalent (like last_name and family_name). You search for a semantic match, it will give you a related result that is exactly not matching your search.
    - mannykannot 4y ago
      Google should be surfacing what its policies actually are, period. If those policies paint Google in a bad light, it should reconsider them, not be coy about them.
      - ta1243 4y ago
        What is the business case for that?
    - gessha 4y ago
      Search engines, even evil ones, should surface useful information.
  - Strom 4y ago
    > That's the kind of results Google should be surfacing Indeed and when I try it, it does surface it when I search for Does Nvidia Shield require an Android account? [1] For comparison, ChatGPT also gets it right. [2] -- [1] https://imgur.com/a/cLpFj6i https://imgur.com/a/cLpFj6i [2] https://imgur.com/a/x6AP0jf https://imgur.com/a/x6AP0jf
    - ThatMedicIsASpy 4y ago
      The first generation is 8 years old at this point.
- tacker2000 4y ago
  I was looking at a media center/gaming emulation device and to be honest i dont see the benefit of these android based TV devices or Apple TV anymore. You can buy a good mini-pc for a couple hundred bucks and its much more powerful and flexible. You can run windows or linux etc and hook up any keyboard, controller, remote, and do whatever you like.
  - iamacyborg 4y ago
    Apple TV is useful as a homekit controller if you care about that sort of thing. That’s about it though.
  - ccouzens 4y ago
    I'd be interested to hear how you'd get the usability to be as good as an operating system designed to be used with a remote running apps designed to be run with a remote. Having to use a mouse and keyboard is a pain point for me when I use my desktop on my TV from the couch. For the mouse I use the trackpad on a ps5 controller, so the mouse isn't so bad. Possibly you could: * Not require passwords for everyday operation of your computer * Boot into some sort of launcher designed for televisions * Have a fairly narrow set of apps and services that work well with your setup. For example I don't know how you'd use Netflix or Disney plus with a remote on Linux.
    - iplist 4y ago
      I've been running Kodi for over a decade now. It starts on boot, so all I have to do is start the desktop. Remote works with an open source Anroid app, it also allows streaming from Kodi to your phone and vice versa. Youtube works fine, never tried Disney+/Netflix, I'm not sure that's possible.
      - amatecha 4y ago
        Kodi has YouTube? YT was the only reason I didn't just set up a Pi 4 or whatever. Already got one LibreELEC system for the home theatre, but wanted YT for the "daily driver" TV display. I assumed any YT plugin for Kodi would be persistently behind API changes and often not working, etc... is my assumption wrong? Would be great to hear if so haha
- Duwensatzaj 4y ago
  Good for you. Nvidia Shield was great, but they upgraded the user interface and shat ads all over it.
- sp332 4y ago
  This is probably not a helpful answer for most people, but the Shield has an unlocked bootloader, and it's popular enough to have lots of custom ROMs that you could flash that don't have that problem.
  - amatecha 4y ago
    Oh no way? Nice, good to know if I ever have one again.
qalmakka 4y ago
Don't mix up poop and chocolate - while Google's accounts aren't really that great (the whole GSuite mish-mash of nonsense doesn't really help), they are several orders of magnitude better than whatever MS is trying to do here. You have a million different ways to permanently screw yourself with a MS account, especially since they basically kept all the "account types" hidden while applying over them a veneer of homogeneity. You can basically use any Google account everywhere a Google account is required, but personal and corporate MS accounts are basically two different things that reuse some infrastructure while not being compatible the slightest. Even when logging in in Windows, there are a dozen ways to enroll a MS account, and most if not all of them are not compatible with each other. There's always a very high chance of getting your Windows account messed up, not accessible, or impossible to log in to.
- drdec 4y ago
  > You can basically use any Google account everywhere a Google account is required This is not true if it is a Google Workspace (or whatever they are calling it now) account. Learned this the hard way when getting YouTubeTV. To be fair, it was just a couple of hours of frustration and annoyance but still, for whatever reason, the workspace accounts that you pay for are second class citizens.
  - KallDrexx 4y ago
    I had to abandon my Google workspace account with my main email domain after they booted the free GSuite status (I migrated before they changed their mind unfortunately). Not only is that account gimped because it is a Google Workspace account (with little things all over that refuse to work with those style accounts at all) now it's even more gimped because it has no active subscription tied to it. I can't downgrade it to a personal account without deleting the account and recreating it, but there's not even a guarantee that will work. Deleting the account will also mess up family photo albums and other items. Photo storage is full but I'm also unable to pay for storage without adding a subscription to the account. It's so risky to try and fix it that I just had to migrate to a new google account, re-purchase all my android apps, and just ignore that account forever.
  - 4y ago
lucb1e 4y ago
Do you mean when using Google email? I don't see how being locked out of my personal email would lead to me being locked out of my Android, even if I would log into Google Play Services with an account (which I have not but let's go with the common lay person scenario).
blendergeek 4y ago
> Google already does it with Android. I have seen this on HackerNews multiple times. I bought a Google Pixel this past week and set it up. I have not logged into a Google Account. Maybe if you give the phone internet access during setup, it doesn't give you the local account option. But I can attest that Google has not (yet?) closed the "offline account" loophole.
_fat_santa 4y ago
Its honestly shocking to me how fragmented Microsoft's authentication system can be and how many quirks it has. Knowing how enterprise software is built, you know under the hood their auth system is complete fragmented mess. Every login looks the same but is subtly different so you can literally log into one service if your account is setup a certain way and that would instantly screw you when it comes to logging into 5+ other services.

amatecha 4y ago

Yeah, that shit is why I took a brand-new NVIDIA Shield back to the store immediately after getting it home - it literally cannot be used without signing into a Google account. I bought it thinking, "hey nice, I can use this 4K Android home theatre device without Google being involved, since it's from NVIDIA and thus hopefully free of all that crap". I even did my homework on this: no material included with the product, nor NVIDIA's online product page, indicated that an Android account is strictly required to actually use the product. I ended up doing some more searching after returning the product, and finally found a singular customer support page that happens to mention it. Gotta love it...

visarga 4y ago
> and finally found a singular customer support page that happens to mention it That's the kind of results Google should be surfacing, but it lost the game, it is so useless now for precision searching.
- ta1243 4y ago
  Google should be surfacing things which paint google in a bad light?
  - oarsinsync 4y ago
    Why does an Android TV device requiring a Google account paint Google in a bad light? If I’m all-in on the Google/Android ecosystem, this is a positive! It works even better! The alternative is that the people behind the Nvidia Shield are intentionally user hostile / acting with malice, in cooperation with Google? The idea that the account requirement is positive or negative is a hugely subjective one. The fact is it’s needed. Whether it’s positive or negative is largely irrelevant. The fact should be surfaced.
  - rmellow 4y ago
    It does. "Google search sucks" returns what you'd expect. What GP is getting at is that Google Search breaks down often when you're looking for a very specific result, but one that is uncommon enough. Instead, you're often diverted to a "related" query result without them telling you.
    - visarga 4y ago
      If you search "What is the world record for crossing the English Channel entirely on foot?" Google would respond with swimming, boats, pedalling etc but miss the ones where people crossed on foot through the Channel Tunnel. An improbable search is almost impossible to do on Google. They will replace it with unrelated but similar results. Even when you specify a strong condition, it will just ignore it and return the exact opposite. It's no better than LLM hallucination. There are pairs of words that are very similar, but semantically different. Like "latitude" and "longitude" or "first name" and "last name". Google's model can't make fine distinctions between related (like latitude and longitude) and semantically equivalent (like last_name and family_name). You search for a semantic match, it will give you a related result that is exactly not matching your search.
  - mannykannot 4y ago
    Google should be surfacing what its policies actually are, period. If those policies paint Google in a bad light, it should reconsider them, not be coy about them.
    - ta1243 4y ago
      What is the business case for that?
  - gessha 4y ago
    Search engines, even evil ones, should surface useful information.
- Strom 4y ago
  > That's the kind of results Google should be surfacing Indeed and when I try it, it does surface it when I search for Does Nvidia Shield require an Android account? [1] For comparison, ChatGPT also gets it right. [2] -- [1] https://imgur.com/a/cLpFj6i https://imgur.com/a/cLpFj6i [2] https://imgur.com/a/x6AP0jf https://imgur.com/a/x6AP0jf
  - ThatMedicIsASpy 4y ago
    The first generation is 8 years old at this point.
tacker2000 4y ago
I was looking at a media center/gaming emulation device and to be honest i dont see the benefit of these android based TV devices or Apple TV anymore. You can buy a good mini-pc for a couple hundred bucks and its much more powerful and flexible. You can run windows or linux etc and hook up any keyboard, controller, remote, and do whatever you like.
- iamacyborg 4y ago
  Apple TV is useful as a homekit controller if you care about that sort of thing. That’s about it though.
- ccouzens 4y ago
  I'd be interested to hear how you'd get the usability to be as good as an operating system designed to be used with a remote running apps designed to be run with a remote. Having to use a mouse and keyboard is a pain point for me when I use my desktop on my TV from the couch. For the mouse I use the trackpad on a ps5 controller, so the mouse isn't so bad. Possibly you could: * Not require passwords for everyday operation of your computer * Boot into some sort of launcher designed for televisions * Have a fairly narrow set of apps and services that work well with your setup. For example I don't know how you'd use Netflix or Disney plus with a remote on Linux.
  - iplist 4y ago
    I've been running Kodi for over a decade now. It starts on boot, so all I have to do is start the desktop. Remote works with an open source Anroid app, it also allows streaming from Kodi to your phone and vice versa. Youtube works fine, never tried Disney+/Netflix, I'm not sure that's possible.
    - amatecha 4y ago
      Kodi has YouTube? YT was the only reason I didn't just set up a Pi 4 or whatever. Already got one LibreELEC system for the home theatre, but wanted YT for the "daily driver" TV display. I assumed any YT plugin for Kodi would be persistently behind API changes and often not working, etc... is my assumption wrong? Would be great to hear if so haha
Duwensatzaj 4y ago
Good for you. Nvidia Shield was great, but they upgraded the user interface and shat ads all over it.
sp332 4y ago
This is probably not a helpful answer for most people, but the Shield has an unlocked bootloader, and it's popular enough to have lots of custom ROMs that you could flash that don't have that problem.
- amatecha 4y ago
  Oh no way? Nice, good to know if I ever have one again.

qalmakka 4y ago

Don't mix up poop and chocolate - while Google's accounts aren't really that great (the whole GSuite mish-mash of nonsense doesn't really help), they are several orders of magnitude better than whatever MS is trying to do here. You have a million different ways to permanently screw yourself with a MS account, especially since they basically kept all the "account types" hidden while applying over them a veneer of homogeneity. You can basically use any Google account everywhere a Google account is required, but personal and corporate MS accounts are basically two different things that reuse some infrastructure while not being compatible the slightest. Even when logging in in Windows, there are a dozen ways to enroll a MS account, and most if not all of them are not compatible with each other. There's always a very high chance of getting your Windows account messed up, not accessible, or impossible to log in to.

drdec 4y ago
> You can basically use any Google account everywhere a Google account is required This is not true if it is a Google Workspace (or whatever they are calling it now) account. Learned this the hard way when getting YouTubeTV. To be fair, it was just a couple of hours of frustration and annoyance but still, for whatever reason, the workspace accounts that you pay for are second class citizens.
- KallDrexx 4y ago
  I had to abandon my Google workspace account with my main email domain after they booted the free GSuite status (I migrated before they changed their mind unfortunately). Not only is that account gimped because it is a Google Workspace account (with little things all over that refuse to work with those style accounts at all) now it's even more gimped because it has no active subscription tied to it. I can't downgrade it to a personal account without deleting the account and recreating it, but there's not even a guarantee that will work. Deleting the account will also mess up family photo albums and other items. Photo storage is full but I'm also unable to pay for storage without adding a subscription to the account. It's so risky to try and fix it that I just had to migrate to a new google account, re-purchase all my android apps, and just ignore that account forever.
- 4y ago

lucb1e 4y ago

Do you mean when using Google email? I don't see how being locked out of my personal email would lead to me being locked out of my Android, even if I would log into Google Play Services with an account (which I have not but let's go with the common lay person scenario).

blendergeek 4y ago

> Google already does it with Android. I have seen this on HackerNews multiple times. I bought a Google Pixel this past week and set it up. I have not logged into a Google Account. Maybe if you give the phone internet access during setup, it doesn't give you the local account option. But I can attest that Google has not (yet?) closed the "offline account" loophole.

_fat_santa 4y ago

Its honestly shocking to me how fragmented Microsoft's authentication system can be and how many quirks it has. Knowing how enterprise software is built, you know under the hood their auth system is complete fragmented mess. Every login looks the same but is subtly different so you can literally log into one service if your account is setup a certain way and that would instantly screw you when it comes to logging into 5+ other services.