7 ms·

Human mind control of rat cyborg's movement via brain-to-brain interface (2019)

73 points by the88doctor 4y ago

eddsh1994 4y ago
(2019)
metadat 4y ago
Where is the video of this happening? Otherwise it's only a tease.
justinclift 4y ago
Wonder if this will replicate? eg if some other group tries the same thing
- rl3 4y ago
  "We were able to replicate this study's findings, as well as the subsequent sanctions imposed by the ethics committee." /s
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
Ratatouille, scratch that hard to reach spot on my back!
- ge96 4y ago
  Thinking finding change on the ground
kelseyfrog 4y ago
Why let humans control rats? It would be a lot more fun if the researchers had done it the other way around.
- karaterobot 4y ago
  I saw a documentary about an experiment like this. The rat ends up cooking gourmet meals.
- msarris 4y ago
  This might be already happening. It might be rats controlling humans to do research about controlling rats.
  - danielheath 4y ago
    Only for some Vogons to blow the whole thing up just as they're collating the results?
    - rideontime 4y ago
      Those were mice.
tjpnz 4y ago
James Cameron wasn't far off.
- ly3xqhl8g9 4y ago
  If only the story was better [1]: to think that humans have interstellar travelling and mind transfer but apparently they must kill some primitive tribes for some goo MacGuffin which grants immortality (?), ChatGPT could have written a better story [2]. [1] https://geohot.github.io/blog/jekyll/update/2022/12/27/avatar-2-was-bad.html https://geohot.github.io/blog/jekyll/update/2022/12/27/avata... [2] --- prompt: write a short story where humans have interstellar travelling and mind transfer ChatGPT: >>> In the year 2205, humanity had achieved what was once thought impossible: interstellar travel. They had discovered ways to fold space and time, allowing them to travel to distant planets and even other galaxies. But their greatest achievement was something else entirely: the ability to transfer human consciousness from one body to another. It was a breakthrough that had been decades in the making, but finally, it had become a reality. People could now leave their physical bodies behind and travel the universe as digital beings. They could inhabit the bodies of robots, or even other humans, in different parts of the galaxy. It was a strange and exhilarating time, and the possibilities seemed endless. One such person was a man named John. He had been a scientist his whole life, and he was fascinated by the idea of brain transfer. He had always believed that consciousness was more than just a product of the brain, that it was something separate and eternal. And now, with the ability to transfer his mind from one body to another, he felt like he was on the verge of discovering the ultimate truth. One day, John decided to take a journey across the galaxy. He transferred his mind into the body of a sleek, metallic robot and set off into the void. As he traveled through space, he marveled at the wonders he saw. He visited planets with exotic landscapes, met alien beings of all shapes and sizes, and even witnessed the birth of a star. But then, something unexpected happened. As he was exploring a distant planet, his robot body was destroyed in a freak accident. John's consciousness was left floating in the void of space, unable to find a new host. For a while, he felt lost and alone, adrift in the emptiness of the universe. But then, something remarkable happened. He began to feel a sense of freedom he had never felt before. He was no longer tied to a physical body, no longer limited by the constraints of biology. John realized that he had been wrong all along. Consciousness wasn't something that existed outside of the brain, it was something that was intimately tied to it. And in that moment, he knew that he had found the ultimate truth he had been searching for. So he remained in the void of space, content in his newfound freedom. He watched as stars were born and died, and marveled at the infinite beauty of the universe. And even though he was alone, he knew that he was never truly alone, for he was part of something much larger than himself. <<< beautiful
IncRnd 4y ago
This is why I had kids. Too bad they never listen, those meddling kids.
idiotsecant 4y ago
The ol' reverse ratatouille.
pugworthy 4y ago
It's a bit odd to combine the idea of this post with the one on paralyzed people sending texts with their minds. Paralyzed people controlling other creatures via their minds. Sort of a cyberpunk familiar / spirit animal.
- nyoomboom 4y ago
  We got the cyberpunk future, and we also got... Animorphs.
- jillesvangurp 4y ago
  Reminds me of the rat thing security cyborg dog in Snow Crash. Powered by a small nuclear device, it runs faster than the speed of sound to stay cool and resides in a liquid nitrogen cooled hatch when not moving. Completely ridiculous of course. But fun.
ninesnines 4y ago
This is novel, but maybe not as novel as it seems. EEG will show if you are looking left or right in the raw signal, and the technology for making a rat move in certain directions with implanted electrodes is not new. I still think that the motto ‘just because we can, doesn’t mean we should’ applies here, and I’m a bit surprised there hasn’t been more ethical pushback; having one mind control another, even with relatively crude technology and outcomes, feels like an ethical stepping stone that should be more carefully examined before proceeding. also, just looking now at the date, it is a relatively old paper
- oefrha 4y ago
  > having one mind control another, even with relatively crude technology and outcomes, feels like an ethical stepping stone that should be more carefully examined before proceeding. We know for a fact that CIA was already researching mind control seven decades ago (Project MKUltra).
  - dr_dshiv 4y ago
    A better reference might be Jose Delgado’s “Stimoceiver” for remote control of animals—and human emotions. https://youtu.be/eK2Hopm5s_c https://youtu.be/eK2Hopm5s_c
  - thfuran 4y ago
    "things the CIA did" seems like a good starting point for a list of things that shouldn't be done.
seydor 4y ago
Journals should enforce non-clickbait titles. "Mind control" and "cyborgs" are not scientific terms. Just as how "sentience when embodied" is new age mumbo jumbo. I am certain that the reviewers asked for a title change, but some authors love the clickbait. Maybe it gets them more refs?
- nextaccountic 4y ago
  I don't see the problem with the language here, the rats are indeed cyborgs (just like humans with pacemakers) and humans are actually engaging in mind control here. I think cyborg is a perfectly fine scientific term used in multiple papers, why makes you not like it? https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=rat+cyborg https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=rat+... https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=cyborg+brain+machine+interface https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=cybo...
  - seydor 4y ago
    i dont think it's scientific at all, does my dental filling make me a cyborg and where is that line crossed. And then u have what is 'mind control', what is 'mind' That many paper titles use it does not mean it's a common scientific term. This is context-dependent, could be ok in an opinion or philosophy paper, but in an experimenal paper about locomotion control via brain-machine interfaces it s just unacceptable imo
    - thfuran 4y ago
      >and where is that line crossed Plenty of categories have fuzzy lines. When exactly does a color stop being orange and become red?
    - attemptone 4y ago
      So if it's context dependent and many papers located in science use it. Then it seems pretty reasonable to call it a scientific term. If it wouldn't be context dependent I wonder how science got to use the words like "transformer", "quark", "entropy" and so on..
helsinkiandrew 4y ago
Wasn’t this foretold in the Rick and Morty Episode “Pickle Rick”?
- okonomiyaki3000 4y ago
  Or do you merely believe that to be true because Previous Leon is currently filling your head with false memories?
_grcd 4y ago
Being in the "shoes" of that rat, it should be no fun at all to "command" going left, while your body goes right. What do you think?
- doodlebugging 4y ago
  This is what I thought too. Imagine being the rat and instinctively knowing that you should be moving away from the danger yet somehow, something is compelling you to move towards it. The conscious fear that the rat feels that would normally protect it from the dangerous situation is overridden by an external influence that leads it to its doom. I think there are obvious ethical issues to consider here. If we would not place ourselves in the situation we should not use another animal as a surrogate or to substitute for our cowardice.
  - _grcd 4y ago
    I agree with all you have written except for one thing. Look around, if you randomly sample comments in this thread, how many are mentioning these "obvious ethical issues"? Looks like they are not obvious at all.
    - doodlebugging 4y ago
      The truth of your observation is apparent. Perhaps I see an ethical issue where others only see an opportunity. Maybe if they had to be on the research subject side of that opportunity instead of the researcher side they might also see an ethical issue. You're observation also applies to the direction a lot of tech development is taking. People look for opportunities and ignore the consequences for the ones who can't participate or who become unwilling participants. Pretty sad state of affairs.
iammjm 4y ago
That's a kickass title for sure.
braindead_in 4y ago
I am sure someone is thinking about hooking it up with ChatGPT.
- rideontime 4y ago
  Why?

73 points by the88doctor 4y ago

eddsh1994 4y ago

(2019)

metadat 4y ago

Where is the video of this happening? Otherwise it's only a tease.

justinclift 4y ago

Wonder if this will replicate? eg if some other group tries the same thing

rl3 4y ago
"We were able to replicate this study's findings, as well as the subsequent sanctions imposed by the ethics committee." /s

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

MonkeyMalarky 4y ago

Ratatouille, scratch that hard to reach spot on my back!

ge96 4y ago
Thinking finding change on the ground

kelseyfrog 4y ago

Why let humans control rats? It would be a lot more fun if the researchers had done it the other way around.

karaterobot 4y ago
I saw a documentary about an experiment like this. The rat ends up cooking gourmet meals.
msarris 4y ago
This might be already happening. It might be rats controlling humans to do research about controlling rats.
- danielheath 4y ago
  Only for some Vogons to blow the whole thing up just as they're collating the results?
  - rideontime 4y ago
    Those were mice.

tjpnz 4y ago

James Cameron wasn't far off.

ly3xqhl8g9 4y ago
If only the story was better [1]: to think that humans have interstellar travelling and mind transfer but apparently they must kill some primitive tribes for some goo MacGuffin which grants immortality (?), ChatGPT could have written a better story [2]. [1] https://geohot.github.io/blog/jekyll/update/2022/12/27/avatar-2-was-bad.html https://geohot.github.io/blog/jekyll/update/2022/12/27/avata... [2] --- prompt: write a short story where humans have interstellar travelling and mind transfer ChatGPT: >>> In the year 2205, humanity had achieved what was once thought impossible: interstellar travel. They had discovered ways to fold space and time, allowing them to travel to distant planets and even other galaxies. But their greatest achievement was something else entirely: the ability to transfer human consciousness from one body to another. It was a breakthrough that had been decades in the making, but finally, it had become a reality. People could now leave their physical bodies behind and travel the universe as digital beings. They could inhabit the bodies of robots, or even other humans, in different parts of the galaxy. It was a strange and exhilarating time, and the possibilities seemed endless. One such person was a man named John. He had been a scientist his whole life, and he was fascinated by the idea of brain transfer. He had always believed that consciousness was more than just a product of the brain, that it was something separate and eternal. And now, with the ability to transfer his mind from one body to another, he felt like he was on the verge of discovering the ultimate truth. One day, John decided to take a journey across the galaxy. He transferred his mind into the body of a sleek, metallic robot and set off into the void. As he traveled through space, he marveled at the wonders he saw. He visited planets with exotic landscapes, met alien beings of all shapes and sizes, and even witnessed the birth of a star. But then, something unexpected happened. As he was exploring a distant planet, his robot body was destroyed in a freak accident. John's consciousness was left floating in the void of space, unable to find a new host. For a while, he felt lost and alone, adrift in the emptiness of the universe. But then, something remarkable happened. He began to feel a sense of freedom he had never felt before. He was no longer tied to a physical body, no longer limited by the constraints of biology. John realized that he had been wrong all along. Consciousness wasn't something that existed outside of the brain, it was something that was intimately tied to it. And in that moment, he knew that he had found the ultimate truth he had been searching for. So he remained in the void of space, content in his newfound freedom. He watched as stars were born and died, and marveled at the infinite beauty of the universe. And even though he was alone, he knew that he was never truly alone, for he was part of something much larger than himself. <<< beautiful

IncRnd 4y ago

This is why I had kids. Too bad they never listen, those meddling kids.

idiotsecant 4y ago

The ol' reverse ratatouille.

pugworthy 4y ago

It's a bit odd to combine the idea of this post with the one on paralyzed people sending texts with their minds. Paralyzed people controlling other creatures via their minds. Sort of a cyberpunk familiar / spirit animal.

nyoomboom 4y ago
We got the cyberpunk future, and we also got... Animorphs.
jillesvangurp 4y ago
Reminds me of the rat thing security cyborg dog in Snow Crash. Powered by a small nuclear device, it runs faster than the speed of sound to stay cool and resides in a liquid nitrogen cooled hatch when not moving. Completely ridiculous of course. But fun.

ninesnines 4y ago

This is novel, but maybe not as novel as it seems. EEG will show if you are looking left or right in the raw signal, and the technology for making a rat move in certain directions with implanted electrodes is not new. I still think that the motto ‘just because we can, doesn’t mean we should’ applies here, and I’m a bit surprised there hasn’t been more ethical pushback; having one mind control another, even with relatively crude technology and outcomes, feels like an ethical stepping stone that should be more carefully examined before proceeding. also, just looking now at the date, it is a relatively old paper

oefrha 4y ago
> having one mind control another, even with relatively crude technology and outcomes, feels like an ethical stepping stone that should be more carefully examined before proceeding. We know for a fact that CIA was already researching mind control seven decades ago (Project MKUltra).
- dr_dshiv 4y ago
  A better reference might be Jose Delgado’s “Stimoceiver” for remote control of animals—and human emotions. https://youtu.be/eK2Hopm5s_c https://youtu.be/eK2Hopm5s_c
- thfuran 4y ago
  "things the CIA did" seems like a good starting point for a list of things that shouldn't be done.

seydor 4y ago

Journals should enforce non-clickbait titles. "Mind control" and "cyborgs" are not scientific terms. Just as how "sentience when embodied" is new age mumbo jumbo. I am certain that the reviewers asked for a title change, but some authors love the clickbait. Maybe it gets them more refs?

nextaccountic 4y ago
I don't see the problem with the language here, the rats are indeed cyborgs (just like humans with pacemakers) and humans are actually engaging in mind control here. I think cyborg is a perfectly fine scientific term used in multiple papers, why makes you not like it? https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=rat+cyborg https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=rat+... https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=cyborg+brain+machine+interface https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=cybo...
- seydor 4y ago
  i dont think it's scientific at all, does my dental filling make me a cyborg and where is that line crossed. And then u have what is 'mind control', what is 'mind' That many paper titles use it does not mean it's a common scientific term. This is context-dependent, could be ok in an opinion or philosophy paper, but in an experimenal paper about locomotion control via brain-machine interfaces it s just unacceptable imo
  - thfuran 4y ago
    >and where is that line crossed Plenty of categories have fuzzy lines. When exactly does a color stop being orange and become red?
  - attemptone 4y ago
    So if it's context dependent and many papers located in science use it. Then it seems pretty reasonable to call it a scientific term. If it wouldn't be context dependent I wonder how science got to use the words like "transformer", "quark", "entropy" and so on..

helsinkiandrew 4y ago

Wasn’t this foretold in the Rick and Morty Episode “Pickle Rick”?

okonomiyaki3000 4y ago
Or do you merely believe that to be true because Previous Leon is currently filling your head with false memories?

_grcd 4y ago

Being in the "shoes" of that rat, it should be no fun at all to "command" going left, while your body goes right. What do you think?

doodlebugging 4y ago
This is what I thought too. Imagine being the rat and instinctively knowing that you should be moving away from the danger yet somehow, something is compelling you to move towards it. The conscious fear that the rat feels that would normally protect it from the dangerous situation is overridden by an external influence that leads it to its doom. I think there are obvious ethical issues to consider here. If we would not place ourselves in the situation we should not use another animal as a surrogate or to substitute for our cowardice.
- _grcd 4y ago
  I agree with all you have written except for one thing. Look around, if you randomly sample comments in this thread, how many are mentioning these "obvious ethical issues"? Looks like they are not obvious at all.
  - doodlebugging 4y ago
    The truth of your observation is apparent. Perhaps I see an ethical issue where others only see an opportunity. Maybe if they had to be on the research subject side of that opportunity instead of the researcher side they might also see an ethical issue. You're observation also applies to the direction a lot of tech development is taking. People look for opportunities and ignore the consequences for the ones who can't participate or who become unwilling participants. Pretty sad state of affairs.

iammjm 4y ago

That's a kickass title for sure.

braindead_in 4y ago

I am sure someone is thinking about hooking it up with ChatGPT.

rideontime 4y ago
Why?