8 ms·
The inner life of the octopus (2022)
- mfragin 4y agoI'm happy to see they referenced the classic essay by Thomas Nagel, "What is it Like to Be a Bat?" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_It_Like_to_Be_a_Bat%3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_It_Like_to_Be_a_Bat%3F That was required reading when I was studying Philosophy back in the day. I guess that's what made so much science fiction interesting: knowing how others experience things is a great antidote against solipsism.
- smokel 4y agoI read the paper "On being an Octopus" by Peter Godfrey-Smith in "Philosophy of Mind: Classical and Contemporary Readings" (2021). This book contains a lot of interesting material on consciousness. Previous to that I had been meditating a lot on what it is like to be a rock. No sense of time, no memory, no input at all. For all the rock knows, time would run in reverse, or jump all over the place. Obviously, the rock doesn't know about space either. Now if you are able to think up a universe without animals or humans, this opens up a lot of room to doubt some basic beliefs. I recently found out that someone [1] ridiculed the philosophy on "what it's like to be" by using a rock as well. I was slightly disappointed by this, because the rock metaphor works fine for me. Perhaps I misunderstood the article. [1] https://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/research/projects/cogaff/misc/like_to_be_a_rock/rock.html https://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/research/projects/cogaff/misc/like...
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago> No sense of time, no memory, no input at all. For all the rock knows, time would run in reverse, or jump all over the place. Even rocks suffer erosion. There is a timeline with respect to how much the rock is being eroded.
- mellosouls 4y agoYeah I seem to recall that essay was intended to mock Nagel's famous thoughts on the perspective of a Bat [1] You may be aware you are on safe philosophical ground, ponderers of the hard question have pointed out there is not obviously reason to think consciousness is special to beings more complicated than thermostats. [2] [1] http://www.philosopher.eu/others-writings/nagel-what-is-it-like-to-be-a-bat/ http://www.philosopher.eu/others-writings/nagel-what-is-it-l... [2] https://consc.net/notes/lloyd-comments.html https://consc.net/notes/lloyd-comments.html
- dhfbshfbu4u3 4y agoI write a lot about geology and to me rocks are anything but static entities. Their timescales are different, but their memory structures are deep and long-lasting. To me, being a rock is to see millions of years of constant change in a single arc… well, unless you are an Archean outcrop.
- Tangurena2 4y agoA decent book on octopus intelligence (by the same author) is Other Minds: The Octopus, the Sea, and the Deep Origins of Consciousness [0]. 0 - https://www.amazon.com/dp/0374537194/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/0374537194/
- CuriouslyC 4y agoWhy do you think that there's something that it's like to be a rock? Assuming panpsychism, you still need to come up with a reason that consciousness is aggregating at the "rock" level, rather than at the mineral crystal level or what not.
- zwkrt 4y agoAnd what about as the rock crumbles? Rocks are constantly eroding and re-amalgamating. What is it like to be sandstone? What is it like to be a magma flow? Is there something it is like to be a severed limb? What about a clipped toenail? A pile of leaves? It is not obvious that just because we as humans identify something as “an object” that it must follow that that object has an internal experience.
- smokel 4y agoI personally don't think that the rock has consciousness. I merely try to ponder what it would be like to be a rock. There is so little to hold on to, given that the rock has no brain, no senses. To me, that implies that there are no concepts, there is no abstraction. Given that most of the universe is gas and rocks, and not brain, it makes me wonder a bit. My approach is not scientific in a direct way, but I think that, in the long run, it might be helpful to come up with new ideas about reality.
- hnmullany 4y agoAdrian Tchaickovsky's "Children of Ruin" is solid scifi on what uplifted Octopus might look like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_Ruin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_Ruin
- donpott 4y agoI came to say this, excellent book. And to add to user rob74's comment in this thread: If memory serves, in the book, one of the procedures to uplift the species was to lengthen their lifespan artificially so octopi could enter some "teaching feedback loops".
- Aromasin 4y agoThe first book in the series, Children of Time, is also fantastic. It's regarding a species of artificially intelligent spiders (intelligence accelerated by an "ancestral memory" based down genetically). He provides some really great takes on how their technology differs from humanity. Almost all of their scientific progress happens biologically instead of using silicon, so things like computing is achieved through manipulating ants using their pheromones', and combustion/metals don't really exists in any meaningful way, replaced instead with ultra-light-but-strong materials with tensile strength as the energy method. I really enjoy Adrian Tchickovsky's work in general. Just a couple of weeks ago I finished his Shadows of the Apt 10 books series, and his world building is fantastic. I'd highly recommend his books for the Fantasy/Sci-Fi enthusiast.
- dghf 4y agoI've only read his Dogs of War, which was also about animals with artificially enhanced intelligence and other abilities --this time a dog, a bear, a lizard of some description, and a swarm of bees with a hive mind, working as soldiers for a private military company with questionable ethics. "My name is Rex. I am a Good Dog." Both intellectually and emotionally satisfying.
- Aromasin 4y agoYou can tell he studied Zoology at university - the premise of the Shadows of the Apt book is that races are based on insects and sea creatures!
- rob74 4y agoWhat the article doesn't highlight at all is the octopus' very short lifespan (the longest-lived species has a maximum lifespan of 5 years) and that they die shortly after breeding, which means it's not possible for young octopuses to learn from their parents the way other relatively intelligent animals (cats, dogs, monkeys, dolphins etc.) do. Having these handicaps (growing up without parents and short lifespan) is one possible explanation for why they developed their high intelligence.
- gatinsama 4y agoThat also explains why they haven't taken over the world yet :)
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- Nevermark 4y agoIt really does. Given how smart, versatile and dextrous the octopus is, its impressive array of senses, and its highly creative use of tools, I can only conjecture that the ocean environment is not conducive to an accretion of technology. I.e. the corrosive ocean water makes the possibility of complex technology difficult, so the octopus hasn't been able to evolve into a longer lived, more socially cooperative creature. Fire, chemistry, long term construction ... impossible or difficult. Because otherwise they seem to have everything. Even latent social ability, despite their typical loner existence. Another impediment is that hiding (their unshelled tasty soft bodies) really well is one of the hallmarks of their intelligence. That would tend to preclude tight cooperative social groups.
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- agumonkey 4y agoThey don't interact with other adult octopussies ?
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- bmacho 4y ago> "When you're dealing with an octopus who's being attentively curious about something, it is very hard to imagine that there's nothing experienced by it," says Peter Godfrey-Smith, professor of history and philosophy of science at the University of Sydney in Australia, and author of Other Minds: The Octopus and the Evolution of Intelligent Life. "It seems kind of irresistible. That itself is not evidence, that's just an impression." > "Octopi are sentient, they will kill us all" > "Octopi are glorified -t-e-x-t---g-e-n-e-r-a-t-o-r- reproduction machines, they only act curious because it leads to more sex, they can't kill us."
- hnthrowaway3 4y agoI was born into a vegetarian family. I still am a vegetarian, but I accept that one species eats another in this world and that is how nature has evolved. What has stopped me from ever eating meat was this: if we encountered an alien race which slaughtered and consumed humans the way humans consume other animals, how would I feel? The answer was always that I would feel disgusted/horrified/angry. Shouldn't we all feel the same about another sentient species? We could argue forever about what 'sentience' means, but beyond a certain point it just feels callous to not stop.
- rendall 4y ago> Shouldn't we all feel the same about another sentient species? It really depends on how they taste.
- ben_w 4y agoTastes are our evolved response to support us in an environment we no longer occupy. This is also why ice cream and candy manages to be bad for us (in the quantities we consume) despite tasting delicious. Note that morality isn't part of evolution's calculus any more than it would be for leopards eating your face.
- marcusverus 4y ago> Tastes are our evolved response to support us in an environment we no longer occupy. The same can be said for all human pleasures. Do you disdain them all?
- ben_w 4y agoIncorrect; many human pleasures revolve around other humans, and those are (in all important regards) as much a part of our environment today as 100kya. For the rest, I distain only those which violate my sense of empathy, which asks "would I be OK if the tables were turned?": that we enjoy games of skill involving throwing things is seldom important but morally neutral, that we act as though calories is scarce is bad on a personal level but again not a moral concern (I don't think hunger is generally caused by others overeating).
- deepzn 4y agoOn another note, I found the depiction of aliens called heptapods (which look like space octopuses) in Arrival fascinating and awesome!
- deepzn 4y agoAnd funnily enough, there's lots of interesting articles about aliens and octopuses: Want to study how aliens might think? Look to the octopus - https://www.opb.org/article/2022/03/29/want-to-study-how-aliens-might-think-look-to-the-octopus/ https://www.opb.org/article/2022/03/29/want-to-study-how-ali... Trending Science: Do octopuses come from outer space? https://cordis.europa.eu/article/id/123479-trending-science-do-octopuses-come-from-outer-space https://cordis.europa.eu/article/id/123479-trending-science-... What Octopus Minds May Tell Us About Aliens https://www.npr.org/2022/03/30/1089748972/what-octopus-minds-may-tell-us-about-aliens https://www.npr.org/2022/03/30/1089748972/what-octopus-minds... DNA Proves Octopuses Are "Aliens" https://octopus.org.nz/content/dna-proves-octopuses-are-aliens https://octopus.org.nz/content/dna-proves-octopuses-are-alie... Octopus Intelligence Sheds Light on Evolution of Complex Brains https://www.genengnews.com/neuroscience/octopus-intelligence-sheds-light-on-evolution-of-complex-brains/ https://www.genengnews.com/neuroscience/octopus-intelligence...
- deepzn 4y agoAlso other disheartening ones - Inside the grand and sometimes slimy plan to turn octopuses into lab animals- https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/inside-the-grand-and-sometimes-slimy-plan-to-turn-octopuses-into-lab-animals/2019/03/01/c6ce3fe0-3930-11e9-b786-d6abcbcd212a_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/insid... Recently read a New Yorker article that was arguing for "free-range" lab mice which may actually be better for the experiments themselves. I hope there's enough oversight for these programs.
- anileated 4y agoAfter watching My Teacher Octopus I boycott any place that offers octopus as food.
- Nevermark 4y agoI am going to trust the octopus. Octopus eat octopus. The morality of eating other animals is a messy subject. I don't think anyone can claim a perfect framework. But they taste good, and they don't seem to sympathize with their own. They are also a creature doing well in the wild, a generalist that responds well to ecosystem changes. As apposed to some other seafoods.
- beznet 4y agoThere's lots of things that happen in the wild that us humans shouldn't use as a moral compass. Also eating them involves causing these great creatures mass amounts of pain and suffering before they die. It's best to just leave them alone and let them live their lives in peace.
- Nevermark 4y agoI agree to a degree But pigs and chickens are probably much worse morally to eat. Given their entire lives can be hellish. And a majority of people eat those. Eating an animal that lived a natural life before being harvested seems less cruel to me. I am sharing my thoughts, not claiming I am "right" or settled on this issue.
- anileated 4y agoYes. If I outwit octopus 1:1 that would be OK.
- anthomtb 4y agoI don't go so far as to boycott restaurants which serve octopus but I refuse to eat them myself. I did try it once. It was not bad. But not so good as to be worth the destruction of a fascinating creature. And yes, I eat pigs, cows and sheep on a regular basis. I am also not advocating that anyone mimic my food choices (which may be weird to see on a public internet forum).
- salty-horse 4y agoCheck out the new science fiction novel The Mountain in the Sea by Ray Nayler https://www.raynayler.net/ https://www.raynayler.net/ It's about minds and intelligence (octopus and otherwise).
- colonCapitalDee 4y agoThere's a great documentary on Netflix called My Octopus Teacher about a filmmaker who befriends (!!) an octopus
- jjtheblunt 4y agoAlso interesting is the octopus befriending the guy, i thought