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A Lost Hiker’s SOS Signal Sparked a Wildfire. Now He Must Pay $300k

• gjadi 4y ago
  For people more used to the SI system, 230 acre is about 93ha.
• Doctor_Fegg 4y ago
  Actually laughed out loud at this bit: > In the early morning of May 27, Powers set out to hike what he believed was the 17-mile Cabin Loop, which his guidebook described as an easy-to-moderate trail. [...] > In her verdict, United States Magistrate Judge Camille D. Bibles disagreed [...] He wasn’t, she said, even on the right trail: Instead of the 17-mile, moderate Cabin Loop, he was hiking the 18.8-mile Taylor Cabin Loop, a full 50 miles away, which his guidebook rated as strenuous.
  • Nullabillity 4y ago
    Sounds like whoever named the trails ought to be the ones actually held responsible then?
    • thedanbob 4y ago
      I’d say when there’s more than an hour’s drive between them it’s reasonable to expect people to tell them apart, even with similar names.
      • wodenokoto 4y ago
        When they’re both more than an hour away from you, heading out to the wrong one is in no way any more suspicious than heading out to the right one.
        • thedanbob 4y ago
          Sure, I’m not saying it was impossible to mix them up, just that naming them like that isn’t criminal negligence. There are lots of places that are close together and have similar names.
        • deleted 4y ago
          [deleted]
        • mannykannot 4y ago
          The trailheads are an hour from each other. Even if they started at the same place, it would be the hiker's responsibility to verify where he is and that he was on the intended trail, not just at the start, but as he progressed along it. If what you are seeing around you does not match up with what your map shows, go back to the last place you were certain. If this guy's life was in danger - and, having been to Taylor's cabin myself, I can well believe it was, especially given how clueless he was - then he has bought the rest of his life for $300K, by abusing an infrastructure set up with considerable effort by people who are doing their best - and taking a risk - to act responsibly. He should be grateful for that and quit whining.
      • causi 4y ago
        If you told your phone "hey google, take me to cabin trail" and ended up at a hiking trail, would you suspect it was the wrong place?
        • berkes 4y ago
          If you "plan" an entire trip in wildlife with a single "hey google..." I'd say that you are personally very irresponsible and should or could be charged for any rescue operation.
        • SSLy 4y ago
          I would never trust an AI designed in the pleasant SV to guide me in wilderness, no.
        • stevehawk 4y ago
          why would I expect my phone to get that right on the first try and not verify it? how lazy have tech people gotten that they blindly trust terrible tech?
        • seattle_spring 4y ago
          I would sure as shit double check. Google Maps is awful at locating any trail except the most well-trodden. You'd be a complete fool not to double check, as the person in OP demonstrated.
        • mannykannot 4y ago
          That would be just a step short of driving onto the railroad tracks because your phone told you to turn right. And when I am going hiking on a route I had not been on before, I take a map of the trail and use it, especially at a time of the year when one should expect temperatures exceeding 35°C. If he had made his way to his intended hiking location, it is quite possible he would still have become lost, as the trail system there has many branches.
      • cykros 4y ago
        Indeed -- much like with roads that have the same name with a different ending; ie, Maple St. and Maple Ave., found in the same town. Though I do feel bad for the people who live on such streets, with how often their food delivery gets sent to the wrong place. Turns out delivery drivers aren't always the ones with the greatest attention to detail.
        • zimpenfish 4y ago
          Next to Greenwich Park, there's Vanbrugh Park, Vanbrugh Park Road, Vanbrugh Park Road West, Vanbrugh Fields, and Vanbrugh Hill all in ~100m radius. Also Vanbrugh Castle as a house name within the same radius but, obviously, isn't on any of the aforementioned roads.
        • cdjk 4y ago
          The one that gets me every time is Parkmoore and Moorepark on opposite sides of 280 in San Jose. I be someone thought they were being clever when they named them.
          • anotheruser13 4y ago
            In Chicago, Wacker Drive has an Upper and Lower, goes North, South, East, and West, and crosses itself 6 times. Confusing for people who aren't familiar with it!
        • cyberge99 4y ago
          Try asking for Peachtree Road in Atlanta major. There are no fewer than 20 variants of Peachtree (Road, lane, drive, Corners, etc).
          • mauvehaus 4y ago
            Boston has at least two Glen Roads, differentiated only by neighborhood and ZIP code. I found this out when a friend drove up to visit, called, and asked: "Do you live in some kind of gated community?!" "No." "I didn't think so."
    • ben_w 4y ago
      You think that's bad, 20 years ago I was on a train from London (I forget which station) to Liverpool Lime St station, and somewhere around Nottingham — over an hour into the trip — another passenger asked me if we were going to get to Liverpool Street Station soon. Liverpool Street Station is in London. Liverpool Lime Street is in Liverpool.
      • lotsofpulp 4y ago
        People who land at Newark airport in New Jersey and want to use the trains to get to New York City have to figure out the difference between Newark Penn Station and New York Penn station. Must be awful for people who do not use English as their primary language. At the Secaucus station, the two Penn Stations are in opposite directions, and I am sure many end up going the wrong way and wasting an hour.
        • geoduck14 4y ago
          It is also aweful who speak English as their primary language. Source: me, wondering if I want the Bronx bound train or the Queens bound train
          • systems_glitch 4y ago
            But you can ride all day on that token as long as you don't leave the station :P
        • systems_glitch 4y ago
          The platform changes at Secaucus junction can be hectic even if you do know there's more than one Penn Station! There's a Penn Station in Baltimore too. Making that mistake nowadays is less of a personal safety issue than it used to be, at least.
        • kmill 4y ago
          My wife once purchased a ticket over the phone for the Acela line from the Penn Station in New York, but they misheard it as the one in Newark. So it's even hard for Amtrak! Something we learned out of all this was that each train company used to have their own station in each city, before things became consolidated, so it makes sense for there to be many stations for the Pennsylvania Railroad.
    • berkes 4y ago
      This response is what many non-Americans (at least my european bubble) pityingly look down at. "I heard in America they have to put a warning on the microwave ovens to not put any live animals inside" followed by some hearsay about people microwaving their dog "to dry them" and then winning millions in court. In any case, this reasoning shows a worrying lack of personal responsibility. Often ascribed to US. Do people seriously consider legal steps against a trail-book because names of trails are confusing? More general: do people actually win a court case because a route-app brought them somewhere "dangerous"?
      • largepeepee 4y ago
        >In any case, this reasoning shows a worrying lack of personal responsibility. Often ascribed to US. Oh the American people are probably more independent than most and that comes with understanding personal responsibility. The real issue is the lack of soft unwritten societal rules that exists in most other countries, so everything must be codified into law and if the rules are not specific enough, they are abused by everyone from corporations to everyday peeps who grew up under the opaque system. Ironically when the laws are too specific, there are also loopholes to be abused. At the end of the day, laws aren't the solution to every societal issue.
        • hprotagonist 4y ago
          > The real issue is the lack of soft unwritten societal rules that exists in most other countries, close, but i think it's the other way around. Those soft rules do exist, but they're regionally scoped to about the size of the median european country. We just have several dozen such regions. The "codify everything" impulse can arise from things like interstate/inter-region commerce alone.
      • giantg2 4y ago
        I would hope they don't win if the information is correct and the names are just confusing. The map doesn't set the names, just renders a representation of what legally exists. There have been cases of GPS directions being wrong and people suing. I think some of the Cades have been successful depending on the circumstances. Wasn't there one in Australia that took someone down a wrong deserted road or something?
    • canadianfella 4y ago
      [dead]
    • seattle_spring 4y ago
      You can't possibly be serious?
    • aspyct 4y ago
      I mean, it's 50 miles away though. Surely he should've figured out that the trail on the map didn't match the reality. Oh wait, he didn't bring a map.
      • giantg2 4y ago
        That was my first thought.
    • deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    • ElfinTrousers 4y ago
      Or how about whoever taught this hiker to read?
    • johnea 4y ago
      Personally, I think he should go to jail. One of the worst wildfires in San Diego county history occured for this same reason. Decades later the landscape is still a blackened scar. Instead of fire starting equipment, maybe he should have brought a GPS? Extra batteries? Solar charger? This is crimnal neglegence, nothing less. This thread is also a poster child for the ineffective HN comments feature. After some moron burns up the countryside, all the discussion here is about how different places have similar names? Pathetic...
      • Nullabillity 4y ago
        You can focus on punishing people, or you can look at why the mixup happened in the first place.
        • s1artibartfast 4y ago
          the "mixup" happened because someone was an idiot and then started a fire. If I get drunk, drive, and cause property damage, would you feel the same way? People have a responsibility to not drive drunk and not to start forest fires. We can do a 5 whys activity but that doesn't negate the culpability of the individual.
      • cmh89 4y ago
        What's the point of sending him to jail and make a ward of the state? Is he an idiot? Sure. Do forests burn? Yeah. Just ban him from public lands and fine him. Fire is a natural part of the landscape in the west. You should learn to appreciate it because our policy of putting out fires for aesthetic and logging reasons has made our whole landscape a powder keg.
  • brudgers 4y ago
    I suspect that he typed "Cabin Loop" into a little box and went where the internet sent him. Because that's how cosine similarity works.
    • beerandt 4y ago
      For trails, this is the equivalent of typing in "Main Street" and presuming the first result is unique and/or the result you're looking for, without considering city, county, or even state. I can't begin to estimate how many trail names might include the words "cabin" and/or "loop". Just further indicates the level of incompetence and ill-preparedness here.
      • brudgers 4y ago
        Interesting the degree to which shit search results are excused.
  • johnea 4y ago
    Personally, I think he should go to jail. One of the worst wildfires in San Diego county history occured for this same reason. Decades later the landscape is still a blackened scar. Instead of fire starting equipment, maybe he should have brought a GPS? Extra batteries? Solar charger? This is crimnal neglegence, nothing less. This thread is also a poster child for the ineffective HN comments feature. After some moron burns up the countryside, all the discussion here is about how different places have similar names? Pathetic...
• rubidium 4y ago
  He lived. And learned a $300k lesson about being prepared so you don’t mess up the world. Seems like the justice system working.
  • bigfudge 4y ago
    I think this is an example of what are normally externalities being arbitrarily imposed on an individual though. There are so many things companies and others do that impose costs on others that singling out only those which meet a threshold that make it worth taking to court creates a discontinuity in outcomes which makes it seem punitive here. I also hope the fine here is proportional to his ability to pay. Bankrupting poor people for mistakes in the outdoors, where the same penalty is expensive but manageable for the rich, also doesn't seem just.
    • rubidium 4y ago
      “Makes it seem punitive” um… are you concerned about that? It’s the whole point to be punitive. And there are supposed to be life altering consequences for actions we take. Certainly there are problems with corporations not bearing the costs of the problems / issues they create. But that means we need better laws to capture that, not that this guy was unjustly punished.
    • FollowingTheDao 4y ago
      Best take right here. Yeah, the guy was an idiot, but was he Norfolk Southern criminal? Ad will Norfolk Southern go bankrupt from poisoning a town? Nope. What about Wells Fargo? I cold go on and on. The government cares more about corporations than people. We live in a corpocracy, not a democracy.
    • treis 4y ago
      Wildfires are also naturally occurring and rely on a supply of dried fuel to burn. This dumbass starting a fire means that we skip a naturally occurring one because this fire consumed the fuel. It's not exactly that cut and dry but the point is it's not all cost.
  • paulcole 4y ago
• jimnotgym 4y ago
  I am sick of seeing people go out hiking with smart phone apps. Stories like this help encourage others to take care If you are going to use a smartphone app, maybe get one good enough to put you within 50 miles of the right trail
  • londons_explore 4y ago
    Each have their downsides, and both have some level of skill/knowledge to use effectively. But I'm pretty sure that for a typical person from the street, a smartphone and spare battery will be more effective than a compass, map, and emergency flare.
    • bbradley406 4y ago
      The smartphone is definitely better than equipment that an average person has no idea how to use, yes. On the other hand, you need pre-downloaded maps that show trails and landmarks, as well as a general sense of the terrain and some basic preparedness. The fact that they didn't even realize they were on the wrong trail shows an absolute failure to plan ahead and navigate correctly. That is really the larger problem - a 17 mile hike is not a light stroll through the woods. If I were doing such a trail (and I'm hardly a seasoned outdoors enthusiast) I would have pre and post hike arranged check-ins with emergency contacts, backup batteries, suitable clothes, 2 light meals worth of food and water, and a rough mental map of the area. None of these things are hard to do or require spending tons of money at sporting goods stores, they are just common sense.
  • GoldenRacer 4y ago
    There's nothing wrong with smart phone apps for hiking if used correctly. I used to be skeptical of them but had a conversation with a professional guide about them and he sold me. Download the maps so you can use them offline. Have a backup battery so you can charge your phone if it dies. Keep your phone in a waterproof case or ziplock bag. Either be in a group with multiple phones (what's the chance that in a 3 person group everyone loses or breaks their phone?) or carry a paper map backup. This guy broke at least 2 of those rules. The points the guide made that convinced me were: 1. You're already carrying the phone, it's silly not to utilize it. 2. Phone gps is so much easier to use than a map that you're much likelier to check it on a regular basis and therefore notice something is wrong earlier than if you are relying solely on a paper map. 3. Paper maps are great in some cases but they really suck on low visibility or dense trees. There are techniques for navigating in those situations but they aren't very precise. Now, you do still have to have some level of competence and preparation. The trail this guy did was on altrails. I would've studied the trail there. I would've studied the route on caltopo. I would've consulted a paper map or guide book. I would've looked at the area on Google maps. I would've made sure everything seemed consistent between those different sources (if he had done that, he wouldn't have ended up on the wrong trail). But ultimately, I would've used caltopo to generate a PDF map of the area, loaded that map into avenza maps, and used that as my primary means of navigation.
• luckylion 4y ago
  Actual title: A Hiker Started a Wildfire Trying to Signal for Help. Now He Owes the Government $300,000. The editorialized version makes it sound like some gadget started a wildfire and he's on the hook for it.
  • macintux 4y ago
    I suspect the original title was too long, but I don’t recall what the character max is.
  • Aachen 4y ago
    Even this is ambiguous though, or at least, I didn't get it when reading the headline in the article either. Smoke signals just don't even come to mind when someone says signal, it's like having to think of network cable when someone says "dog strangled by cat", to me at least!
• mothsonasloth 4y ago
  [flagged]
  • aikinai 4y ago
    Americans are certainly known for their gung-ho attitude and optimism, but I think you’re making a huge leap to being unprepared for wilderness—that’s a universal issue with most modern people unaccustomed to being away from their full-featured support environment. A quick Google turns up plenty of British people getting themselves into the same predicament.
  • luckylion 4y ago
    > Taking two knives (machete and a cutting knife), as though they are out to fight nature. Isn't that reasonable? If you want to cut food, or do something that requires precision, you don't want to use a machete. If you need to bushwhack and clear some brush, you don't want to use a small cutting knife.
    • DocTomoe 4y ago
      As an European outdoor enthusiast ... I have never been in a situation where I needed a machete instead of just going a slightly different path. Are American forests darker versions of Fangorn?
      • rascul 4y ago
        Some areas have less maintained trails. There have been times I could have used a machete to get through an overgrown trail.
      • b112 4y ago
        Even if they are, it would take hours to cut a 10 foot long path in that, with a hand axe / machete.
      • ekidd 4y ago
        It depends. Obviously, if you're a visitor on a public trail, you shouldn't have a machete. But there are corners of my property where a machete wouldn't hurt. Sure, New England forests often have open understories. But if sunlight can reach the ground, they can also be nearly impassible.
• grumple 4y ago
  I'm not sold on this guy's conviction. I know the internet loves seeing people punished, but this guy needed his life saved. I've been hiking plenty, and these mistakes he made are very common (except for going 50 miles off to start... that's wild). Rarely do we bring lighting or GPS beyond our phones. We never bring enough water. Trails are often overgrown and it's tough to tell where one begins and another ends, sometimes you end up on the wrong trail for a bit. Trail ratings are often off. Even on easy trails, a misstep can mean serious injury or death. It is a much more dangerous activity than most think. I'm glad he didn't end up as another dead hiker.
  • pirate787 4y ago
    The penalty serves as a strong deterrent for other hikers making half-assed plans and imposing their rescue costs on taxpayers.
    • mughinn 4y ago
      Any penalty that "makes an example out of someone" is by definition not fair and not justice
    • bluGill 4y ago
      If it wasn't for the unprepared going off and getting lost, search and rescue teams would have to pay people to get lost. Airplanes sometimes crash and other things that are not the fault of the unprepared, so we need those teams and we need them practiced. This is cheaper than planning realistic training, and the unprepared is better training as well.
      • smeej 4y ago
        Look up "broken window economics."
        • bluGill 4y ago
          That doesn't apply here.
• Aachen 4y ago
  For people like me that are surprised/confused as heck at the headline how an SOS message can cause a fire: think smoke signals, not galileo signals.
  • hotpotamus 4y ago
    I was thinking Galileo was an analog of GPS which wouldn't do much good for someone who wanted a rescue. Knowing exactly where you are doesn't help much if you can't tell anyone. I am far from an avid hiker, but if I was going to be doing anything remotely dangerous away from regular cell coverage, I'd take an EPIRB which I believe has some satellites in the loop but sort of works in reverse of GPS. I think the rescue bills might approach what this gentleman is being charged, but sometimes circumstances call for it.
    • Aachen 4y ago
      Galileo has search and rescue capabilities (relaying emergency signals, that is) https://www.euspa.europa.eu/european-space/galileo/services/search-and-rescue-sar-galileo-service https://www.euspa.europa.eu/european-space/galileo/services/... It does more than GPS / location determining. I didn't think a commercial provider would be as well known (I've never heard of EPIRB) as this constellation, but yeah I guess few people would know Galileo as more than GNSS
      • hotpotamus 4y ago
        I first heard about it because of this story: https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-kaufman-sailing-voyage-20140410-story.html https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-kaufman-sailing... I don't think it's a commercial system, but there is great cost in diverting a US Navy vessel for a search and rescue operation, though I suppose that is ideally the reason that they're out there in some sense. After just a touch more reading, it looks like the rescue locator beacon system is piggybacking on GPS and Galileo satellites for some functionality, but includes other satellite and ground based systems too. Pretty cool.
  • harambae 4y ago
• hasmanean 4y ago
  Would it kill them to put a radio morse code link in the cabin? It could be done with $3 worth of parts, plus a solar cell or dynamo. What is with this insane desire to rough it as living without emergency comms is somehow nobler than having them? There’s no reason why every log cabin should not have a HF voice link to anywhere. I think that in the real old days there were probably tons of people walking everywhere. You just had to sit down in a trail and somebody would walk by. Wild places today would seem deserted by comparison.
  • jneumann004 4y ago
    You're assuming somebody is going to be listening. Many organizations that would have been listening 50 years ago have had funding taken from them.
  • jimnotgym 4y ago
    HF transmission is highly dependent on atmospheric effects to get any reception at all. That is if anyone is even listening. Retuning to a different band requires running the antenna etc... not that easy for dummies who can't even see the benefit of a map, compass and water.
    • hasmanean 4y ago
      If the distance is less than 600km then NVIS comms would be enough. A 100’ sloped antenna would do the trick, attached to the chimney of the log cabin. It would not have to be that high off the ground.
  • GTP 4y ago
    I would not use morse code, as most people aren't familiar with it. But putting a simple radio with solar-charged batteries is a good point.
  • oefrha 4y ago
    > He hadn’t packed a GPS device, paper map, or compass, instead relying on a cell phone mapping app that was useless without service. He had failed to bring a headlamp or flashlight, instead relying on his phone’s built-in light. While he had brought two large knives, he hadn’t brought a first-aid kit or any method of signaling for help in an emergency. He wasn’t, she said, even on the right trail: Instead of the 17-mile, moderate Cabin Loop, he was hiking the 18.8-mile Taylor Cabin Loop, a full 50 miles away, which his guidebook rated as strenuous. You think someone like this is prepared to use a radio morse code link?
• bilekas 4y ago
  Before reading the article i actually was thinking that sounds bizarre. After reading it though it's clear this guy really messed up. Even burning the tree for a signal would not have been the last resort.. there are so many things he could have done even after leaving unprepared. I'm super curious what his level of experience is. It makes a difference of he was just some novice who wanted to take a walk on a sunny day or if he really thought he was prepared. That bill seems huge untill you see the scale of damage. Over 200 square acres is just incredible to me.
  • londons_explore 4y ago
    Doesn't seem awfully unprepared to me... He was planning on an easy 1 day hike, and took most of the gear necessary for double that if need be.
    • mrbombastic 4y ago
      Yeah i guess am hiking incredibly unprepared all the time and would hazard most others are too. 14 mile out and back should take a day, he got lost and things went bad. Doesn’t feel like justice to me but will make me rethink my packing list next time I hit the trail.
    • singron 4y ago
      In backpacking, bringing too much stuff (especially the wrong kind of stuff) is a beginner mistake. If he hadn't brought 3 pounds for the large knife and machete and made similar reduction in equipment elsewhere, he would have exerted himself less. Also, an experienced hiker knows that if you drink half your water but you aren't yet halfway done the trail, you should turn around and go back. You can estimate this based on elapsed time if necessary.
      • marymkearney 4y ago
        Yes, this. Also, if you're out of water, hike in the dark, not in the sun. Oh wait ... no headlamp? Never go anywhere without a headlamp. Not even to the store. After a few mishaps I'm a bit OCD about my headlamp.
• rozab 4y ago
  >While he carried a cell phone, he had no service I find that most people have no idea that the GPS used by phones for positioning has nothing to do with normal mobile signal, and will still work in the most remote areas of the world. Mapping apps have a rough map of the world always locally available, and you can download specific areas to use offline. There is no functional difference between this and a dedicated GPS device, as implied by the article (and the verdict?) Am I wrong?
  • pixelbreaker 4y ago
    GPS will work in most locations, yes, but most apps don't have a simplified basemap, unless you have preloaded it.
    • melling 4y ago
      Yes, I’ve been preloading Google Maps before trips for years because I never know if I’m going to pay for service while on vacation.
  • giancarlostoro 4y ago
    The issue you're missing is most "GPS Apps" use information gathered from the internet, and most people don't download "offline maps" which I used to do, which would allow you to GPS as you suggest without data since all the location information is now locally stored.
    • deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    • Dalewyn 4y ago
      So much this. For /any/ truly off-grid GPS usage, it's well worth the money to just go and buy a proper GPS unit with no dependency on outside connections other than the GPS signals. I'm not even talking about hiking on some obscure trail in WhereTheHellistan either. Even just driving down the highway out into the countrysides could leave you miserable if all you have is a phone with spotty or no data signal. Personally, the Rand McNally GPS unit that cost me a pretty penny has more than paid for itself every time it always just worked while phones just derped worthlessly.
• joxel 4y ago
  [dead]
• rticesterp 4y ago
  In Virginia, suppression costs of the fire are the responsibility of the fire starter even if they take all proper precautions and there is no negligence involved. It's a good law. It protects our national forests. Stories like these make one think twice before starting a fire. "Even if a person takes all proper precautions and obtains any locally required permits, whoever started the fire is responsible for suppressions costs should the fire escape." https://dof.virginia.gov/wildland-prescribed-fire/fire-laws/4-pm-burning-law/ https://dof.virginia.gov/wildland-prescribed-fire/fire-laws/...
  • cebu 4y ago
    I worked at a summer camp in college. We had some campers and staff build a fire near the river and neglect to fully douse the embers. Hours later there was an "all hands" call on the radio. The fire had spread in about a 10 foot radius by the time we got to it. Since the soil was so loose and sandy, it had caught the roots on fire. Took hours of digging to put it out. Could not have been controlled without a team, equipment, and a quick response.
  • bryanrasmussen 4y ago
    >Stories like these make one think twice before starting a fire. yeah, I can't afford to run the risk of something going wrong here, guess I'll keep going and hope I don't die.
    • mauvehaus 4y ago
      How about considering the danger that starting that fire and walking away from it stands to expose other people to? Maybe we look at things differently, but saving my own life is not worth risking the lives of a bunch of firefighters or regular folks. Particularly not if I'm almost wholly to blame for being at risk because of my own spectacular level of stupidity. The monetary cost of a mere $300,000 is a very poor proxy for putting the risk back on the shoulders of the person it rightly belongs on.
      • apple4ever 4y ago
• jpambrun 4y ago
  For many 300,000 is a life sentence without parole. Two years in prison would be less cruel. Something feels wrong about this justice..
  • b112 4y ago
    Bankrupcy is a thing, thus it isn't all that?
    • dmd 4y ago
      Fines like this cannot be discharged in bankruptcy.
      • b112 4y ago
        Interesting. That could indeed take quite some time to pay. Typing, I just realised, this is one case where constant higher inflation could help...
        • jpambrun 4y ago
          With today's cost of borrowing, the median salary can't afford the interest on that amount.
          • b112 4y ago
            Borrowing? This is a fine, but it brings up a point. Where I am, fines to governmental entities via courts, can often be negotiated as monthly payments, interest free, even if it takes a very, very long time to pay. EG traffic fines, as an example, being a few hundred, can be paid over years. No interest. This does change if you do not pay, but otherwise, you can negotiate. So if the same is true in the US, and it may be, after all, bankruptcy laws does not apply here (and so other concepts, too)... then inflation helps.
  • driverdan 4y ago
    Why? He broke the law and is responsible for the outcome.
• ekianjo 4y ago
  That's massive title editing going on here. He started a fire by himself.
• marcyb5st 4y ago
  Honestly, isn't it well known that if you go hiking you should carry a PLB? Especially now that some are cheaper than hiking boots? https://www.rei.com/c/plbs-and-satellite-messengers https://www.rei.com/c/plbs-and-satellite-messengers
  • stewx 4y ago
    No, these are not a requirement to go hiking. Let's not make people think they need to spend hundreds of dollars to go for a walk in the woods. No doubt, satellite communication devices are useful but people have been hiking and surviving outdoors for millennia without them.
    • marcyb5st 4y ago
      In my opinion if you go hiking where you suspect that there's no phone signal you should have one. I agree that perhaps always having them is too much (even if once you have one they don't add much weight to your pack).
  • cykros 4y ago
    They're a lot more widely used amongst long distance backpackers, particularly on multi day or week section or thru hikes. This guy set out on what sounds like it would have been a day hike (I'd expect, given the distance, and the <gallon of water he brought). Given that he was setting out for what he thought was a moderate trail, I'm not in the slightest surprised he didn't have one. Though yes, when I saw the headline, I was trying to figure out how his InReach managed to spark a forest fire...then I saw that he literally was TRYING to set a whole tree on fire. This is just plain stupid. He got his life rescued, and his lesson.
• giantg2 4y ago
  Using the logic in this case, wouldn't almost anyone who needs to be rescued have created their own emergency out of negligence or recklessness? I mean, being unprepared for either the conditions or the emergency is pretty much the definition creating your own emergency. Also, WTF does not having a first aid kit have to do with this? It doesn't seem like it would have helped anything in this scenario. Setting the fire like that was reckless. I wonder if he could claim temporary insanity due to the medical state he was in. Heat injuries can have a mental impact. "Setting fires was illegal regardless of the circumstances" I'm not sure this is the whole picute. Isn't there a legal concept that you can break the law to prevent a further harm? Like speeding on the way to the hospital. I'm betting if he set a distress fire in the fire ring, they wouldn't be after him. So that might be misleading. Anyways, my biggest takeaway is that you can make a mistake and be completely fucked for the rest of your life. It's safer, legally, to just stay inside and not participate in anything due to legal risks. As perverse as it sounds, it almost seems the hiker would have been better off dying and let his estate sue everybody. At least it seems the legal system prefers it that way.
  • kleiba 4y ago
    I agree, the court's arguments make little sense. Even if you agree to the point of view that he went on the hike ill-prepared, that does not change the fact that he found himself in a potentially life-threatening situation with no other means to signal for help. Now, the article also mentioned that he left the fire unattended, and that raises the question whether or not a signal fire could have been done with more care. But that is not at all what the court focuses on. At the same time, isn't the sum of $300,000 influencing our judgment here? Would we think otherwise about the judgment if the damage were much lower, say, around $1,000?
    • bjt2n3904 4y ago
      If the sentence was $1k, and you had to do a "safe hiking PSA", I'd consider that just.
    • giantg2 4y ago
      "Now, the article also mentioned that he left the fire unattended, and that raises the question whether or not a signal fire could have been done with more care. But that is not at all what the court focuses on." Yeah, I'm not saying the court decision is necessarily wrong, but the way they went about it seems wrong. They are focusing too much on stuff that doesn't matter - like a first aid kit. Yeah, the amount is definitely an influential factor. However, it's probably based on actual cost to put out the fire. I'm not sure what the answer is to balance interests here. Should tax payers just foot the bill anytime someone accidentally starts a fire (reckless? Negligence? Etc too?) or needs to be rescued, or do we need to have personal insurance against these things and what does that cost? I'd say I'm generally against personal insurance for everyday life and definitely against mandated personal insurance for most activities as you can essentially regulate lawful activities out of existence and price out classes of people. A potential fix would be charging a low fee hiking pass that acts similar to insurance to help the governwment cover costs likely to arise from public use. Although I'm sure this has some concerns with use restriction and pricing people out of a public resource as well.
• sergiotapia 4y ago
  Aren't wildfires very good for forests? There's a bunch of dead matter on top soil and fires clear all that stuff away and let green grow again. I think I read that somewhere. In Bolivia farmers "chakean" so that sugar cane can grow every season.
• nocababges 4y ago
  i never hiked or walked 14 miles but assuming he is few miles in to 14 miles way back, is it difficult to walk back say 10 miles without having to give up?
  • snowy909 4y ago
    Came here to say that. Perhaps he was confused but I would have dragged myself 14 miles back to my car somehow.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• crossroadsguy 4y ago
  What’s the next best smartphone or non-smartphone based option to try and navigate if you get lost and don’t have something like a satellite phone or satellite enabled smartphone like those new iPhones? Offline maps with a solar powered charger or power-pack?
  • Dalewyn 4y ago
    A self-sufficient, proper GPS unit like something from Garmin. Battery life is still a point of failure. For a guaranteed failsafe fallback: A good old compass and paper maps of the area and knowing how to use them.
  • secondcoming 4y ago
    Garmin watches have maps. Here Maps are downloadable to your phone but I'm not sure if they cover off-trail routes.
• raydiatian 4y ago
  As a hiker, and casual observer of patterns in the US court system, the man is being made an example of. “If you fuck up your life hiking, please fix it without starting a forest fire, or just die, well fuck up your life for you when you’re back.” I haven’t hiked Arizona, the bit about picking the wrong trail is suss, but I feel like I easily could have stumbled into the same predicament
• jermaustin1 4y ago
  As an avid hiker, who gets lost on trails ALL the time, even trails I hike regularly, I (and everyone should) never leave home without a trail map, compass, and offline maps of the area on your phone. The phone maps can help you pinpoint where on the physical map you are once you find yourself lost. You need to learn the trail blazes BEFORE you set off, and most official trail maps have the blazes printed on them so you know you are on the right track. Buying an official trail maps also supports the trail maintainers.
• nisegami 4y ago
  To me it seems like it would be kinder to humanely euthanize him.
• bjt2n3904 4y ago
  I remember reading an article about a young engineer that deleted a production database on his first day. He feared that he'd be fired, but his boss effectively said, "We just learned a quarter million dollar lesson, why would we fire you?" This judge should use this as a moment for public education, and an opportunity to update and clarify trail guides. Instead, it's a vindictive and punitive judgement. $1k fine and do a PSA about hiking safety -- that's plenty fair. The guy had rhambo for crying out loud, he had legitimate reason to fear for his life. But with this, the lesson learned is "if you ever get lost, remember, it's your fault for not preparing enough, and it might be better to just die".
  • apple4ever 4y ago
    All great points. It's a great lesson for public education. We can learn from this - just like a standard retro. But we don't blame people in them, just like this. A small fine and a PSA about hiking safety is fair. But I feel the lesson that will be learned is like you said "I don't want a fine, even if I feel like I'm dying, I'd rather not take the chance!"
• joshstrange 4y ago
  Was this guy incredibly reckless at almost every step along the way? Yes. I don't know his finances but $300K is a LOT of a lot of people and it makes me feel sick to my stomach to see people slapped with fines like these when companies get fines that are barely a slap on the wrist comparatively. I might be able to climb out of a $300K hole with a lot of effort but it would take many years and probably ruin my life in the processes. I also wouldn't do what this guy did but that's beside the point, it just feels like fines should really be scaled to the person/companies income/revenue/etc instead of how it currently works. Same deal with something like speeding fines.
• crystaldecanter 4y ago
  no one has mentioned perhaps the most important rule of hiking alone: tell someone your plans and what to do if you don’t check in by a certain time.
  • roxgib 4y ago
    Wouldn't have helped him here, he was 50 miles from the trail he wanted to hike!
• webworker 4y ago
  An iPhone 14 (with SOS Sat Comm) would have been much cheaper
  • deleted 4y ago
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  • Ruthalas 4y ago
    A lot of very expensive gear, or indeed a small plane might be less expensive than that fine.
• teeray 4y ago
  > While he planned to finish the trail in a single day, he also carried camping gear, including stove fuel, a sleeping bag and hammock, a machete, and another large knife. He certainly put too many eggs in the phone basket, relying on it entirely for navigation and illumination. But the other things he packed on a contingency of having to bivouac is not something the average unprepared hiker does. He did save some on his weight budget to pack those things on the assumption that the hike was going to be “easy-to-moderate”. I think the judge is viewing this too much through the perfect lens of hindsight and she likely would have made some of the same (or worse) errors given the same prior information.
  • apple4ever 4y ago
    > I think the judge is viewing this too much through the perfect lens of hindsight and she likely would have made some of the same (or worse) errors given the same prior information. Agreed, it very much seems like that. As the article mentions, many hikers fail to bring enough water. He made a mistake, no doubt, and almost paid with his life. But that should be his punishment.
• thrill 4y ago
  The judge missed an opportunity to apply a reasonable punitive damage and rectify the man's apparent willingness to cause inconvenience and risk to others due to his own unpreparedness. A sentence ordering the man to pay for and complete a 45 day outdoor survival course would have done a lot more good.
• johnea 4y ago
  Personally, I think he should go to jail. One of the worst wildfires in San Diego county history occured for this same reason. Decades later the landscape is still a blackened scar. Instead of fire starting equipment, maybe he should have brought a GPS? Extra batteries? Solar charger? This is crimnal neglegence, nothing less. This thread is also a poster child for the ineffective HN comments feature. After some moron burns up the countryside, all the discussion here is about how different places have similar names? Pathetic...
• freehorse 4y ago
  > The trail was well-marked at first, and he made it to Taylor Cabin without any issue. A few miles beyond that, however, the trail became rough and overgrown, and Powers soon realized he was lost. For about a half-hour to 40 minutes, he attempted to pick up the trail again before giving up and doubling back to the cabin, arriving there at roughly 6 p.m. So he walked an easy 3 miles path to the cabin, then wandered around lost and went back to the cabin? And then instead of walking these 3 miles back to his car he decided to push through again, even if he was out of water, having no map, and a useless phone that he could do nothing with because he had not downloaded any maps beforehand, and knowing he had difficulty in finding the trail? Am I missing something here that leads to all this making sense, or this person is as an utter idiot as it sounds? No circumstances seem to have forced him to push through blindly hiking into the wilderness and get lost, the court is absolutely right. This is all absurd.
  • roxgib 4y ago
    I think he walked a lot further than that. The article said he had a 14 mile walk back to the car, and that he was a few miles into that when his legs started to cramp.