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I want to share a personal anecdote here. It may be tangential, but I think it’s worth sharing anyway. I live in a cosmopolitan city in India. I am an “upper c

I want to share a personal anecdote here. It may be tangential, but I think it’s worth sharing anyway. I live in a cosmopolitan city in India. I am an “upper caste” Hindu. I have been brought up in a relatively liberal environment and have not experienced much first hand caste-based discrimination (because of my sheltered upbringing no doubt). I have always thought of my family as liberal. A few years ago, I wanted to marry a girl who was out of my caste. My family did not accept her immediately. They never uttered the word “caste”, but made snide remarks about “her community”, and about how “our community” is full of “ambitious intellectuals” and hers is not (implying moral superiority to ambition and intellect). They had not even met her. They just knew her surname and had seen pictures. Made me wonder where all of these assumptions came from. She was not privy to these conversations but she realised that something was not right, and asked me if caste was being an issue. And that’s when it struck me that maybe it was caste that was being the issue. My mind swirled with nasty thoughts for a few weeks. “Should I marry this girl who is outside of my caste?”, “What if no one accepts me? I’ll be alone”, etc. For someone who is fairly liberal, well educated, and well travelled, I was shocked at the kind of thoughts appearing in my mind. They were more powerful than I ever thought they could be. Thankfully, due to my meditation practices, I had developed the ability to “witness” my thoughts without simply giving in to them. That way, I could let my thoughts flow, and wait for my fear to pass. After the fear had passed, my mind would settle down and I’d think rationally again. What’s the point of this anecdote? I had an important realisation. It is quite possible that the things we call “casteism” is nothing but a flavour of the fear of abandonment, or the fear of being expelled from society by not conforming to societal standards. I realised that the standards can be absolutely absurd, but it is the mere fear of being abandoned by society that can make a human being conform and commit the most ridiculous actions. All out of fear. Take whatever conclusion you may from this. It is an insight into the mind of someone who never thought would discriminate on the basis of caste, and yet my mind veered into that abyss, if only for a short duration. I escaped and lived to tell the tale. Thanks for reading.

abc_lisper 4y ago
Ostracism is a well known punishment in the western world. Greeks used to practice it. So are the recent woke cancellation standards. It is not unique to India.
- flangola7 4y ago
  >woke cancellation This really isn't in the spirit of HN. "Woke" is just the latest term for social justice. There are people who don't want a society that is just but they can't say it in the open (as much) any more, so they come up with euphemisms. The previous was "politically correct."
  - anonymouskimmer 4y ago
    The non-woke cancel too, they just don't do it on social media.
    - ehnto 4y ago
      I think it is against the spirit of HN, because it is a shallow discussion terminator and an ad hominem all in one. It is too ambiguous to be about anything in particular, so we should just talk about the real issues specifically and in depth. If it is an issue to be against caste reforms, discuss that, don't just call someone woke and close the book. It is also a bit of a dog whistle even if accidentally, since it isn't actually about any specific issue, but people can still identify that they are against it. Call something "woke" and suddenly people who never cared about the issue before will have a problem with it. Language is weird though, the word has evolved a weird meaning and been co-opted by political agendas, so it is just nice to not drag that shitshow into real discussions as well.
  - lolinder 4y ago
    > There are people who don't want a society that is just but they can't say it in the open (as much) any more, so they come up with euphemisms. There are also reasonable and good people who have legitimate disagreements about what a just society looks like and don't appreciate the "you're either with us or against us" attitude you're projecting. For example, I can be 100% on board with treating everyone respectfully and equally under the law while still thinking it's harmful to try to erase the contributions of good people from centuries past on the grounds that they weren't good enough by our modern standards. That's the kind of thing that I label "woke cancellation", and you'll never persuade me that judging a historical figure based on our modern values is just.
glitchc 4y ago
So, did you marry the girl or not? If not, did caste play a factor?
vishnugupta 4y ago
Thanks for sharing this! Those who are not exposed to the caste based discrimination or even the concept of caste can't begin to appreciate how insidious it is. Your comment brings forward perfectly how caste acts at multiple levels and is pervasive in the Indian society. My favourite example about this is from a (for the lack of better word) sub-religion named "Lingayats". It traces origins to a philosopher named Basavanna. He wanted a community sans discrimination so that every one from regardless of caste would be treated equally. And yet here we are, after hundreds of years, where there are 50+ castes/sub-castes in Lingayats too.
- onetimeusename 4y ago
  > exposed to the caste based discrimination or even the concept of caste I think there's two sides of caste. One is the socio-economic and the other is religious. It's very very hard for me to make a generality about the Hindu religion but my understanding is that (at least from what I have seen in one specific location) Hindu priests and religious leaders had to be Brahmin. It seemed like cleaniness, washing, and purity for things like pooja were taken extremely seriously. I don't see how you can hold those beliefs and not be exposed to the concept of caste. I know Hinduism has many sects and Brahmin is not even the only upper caste, so there might be other views and I have seen non Brahmins claim to be priests, etc. But at least mainstream, traditional Hinduism seemed like caste was a part of it. I would also distinguish that in India, a lot of Brahmin priests were actually poor so it's not necessarily higher in socio-economic status. I would be interested in hearing other perspectives though on views of caste because I definitely don't know a lot about Hinduism.
  - anonymouskimmer 4y ago
    From what I recall, theoretically, and perhaps actually in the very distant past, caste was not hereditary. You gained your caste by your own actions. If you became a Hindu priest, and acted as a good one, you'd be a Brahmin by your acts. Things obviously changed.
- MichaelZuo 4y ago
  From quick searching it seems their total membership size is under 30 million. How could they sustain 50+ castes/sub-castes?
triyambakam 4y ago
I didn't grow up in India. How can I learn more about which names belong to which class?
- delta_p_delta_x 4y ago
  > How can I learn more about which names belong to which class? Any name that is overtly Sanskrit in origin and invokes some Hindu god(dess) is a tell-tale of upper-caste origin. Sometimes the name embeds the caste itself. This rule works across the North-South divide in India. North Indian examples: Dwi/Tri/Chaturvedi, Bharadvaj, Mukherji, Chatterji, Bandhopadhyay, Bhattacharya South Indian examples: Iyer, Iyengar, Rao, Murthy, Murali, Srinivasan, Vasudevan, etc.
  - unmole 4y ago
    This is so hilariously wrong. On multiple levels.
    - delta_p_delta_x 4y ago
      How about elaborating on what is wrong, instead of merely saying so? Furthermore, are you claiming that a Bhattacharya or an Iyengar is not of an upper caste, or that their first/surnames are not explicitly Sanskrit in origin? I don't claim to generalise—there are always exceptions to the rule.
      - unmole 4y ago
        Let's see: - Iyengar is not of Sanskrit origin. On the other hand the unambiguously Dalit surname Chamar is. - First names are dictated more by fashion than by caste. And the names of deities are used across castes. The idea that first names are markers of caste will sound patently absurd to anyone living in India. - Rao and Murthy are used across castes. No South Indian will mistake them for caste markers. > I don't claim to generalise Really? Because "is a tell-tale of upper-caste origin" and "This rule works across the North-South divide in India" sound like generalizations to me. Do you really think propagating these misconceptions is productive?
meowtimemania 4y ago
What meditation practices do you use?
dalyons 4y ago
hey i just wanted to say thank you for writing this - it gives a really interesting insight into a set of complicated social/cultural practices. It's so easy to proclaim "i am above this" or "i would never", but I appreciate the vulnerability and honest self-reflection here.
KingOfCoders 4y ago
Thanks for your voice, too often Indian discussions on HN are feverishly dominated by a group of people drowning out all other voices.
bruceb 4y ago
So did you marry her?
fmajid 4y ago
Well yes, tribalism was a survival trait why is why conformity is so deeply ingrained in human minds and social organization. That said, in India caste (varna and jati) correlate with genetic clusters that have maintained for millennia by higher levels of endogamy than, say, Ashkenazi Jews: “What the data were showing us was that the genetic distinctions among jati groups within India were in many cases real, thanks to the long-standing history of endogamy in the subcontinent. People tend to think of India, with its more than 1.3 billion people, as having a tremendously large population, and indeed many Indians as well as foreigners see it this way. But genetically, this is an incorrect way to view the situation. The Han Chinese are truly a large population. They have been mixing freely for thousands of years. In contrast, there are few if any Indian groups that are demographically very large, and the degree of genetic differentiation among Indian jati groups living side by side in the same village is typically two to three times higher than the genetic differentiation between northern and southern Europeans. The truth is that India is composed of a large number of small populations.” Excerpt From Who We Are and How We Got Here, Chapter 6, “The Collision That Formed India” by David Reich
nemo44x 4y ago
It’s pretty common everywhere to avoid socializing or marrying someone from a place doesn’t share values. For instance you’d almost never see a woman from a well to do family marry a tradesman even if he’s a good man who would provide and is handsome.

abc_lisper 4y ago

Ostracism is a well known punishment in the western world. Greeks used to practice it. So are the recent woke cancellation standards. It is not unique to India.

flangola7 4y ago
>woke cancellation This really isn't in the spirit of HN. "Woke" is just the latest term for social justice. There are people who don't want a society that is just but they can't say it in the open (as much) any more, so they come up with euphemisms. The previous was "politically correct."
- anonymouskimmer 4y ago
  The non-woke cancel too, they just don't do it on social media.
  - ehnto 4y ago
    I think it is against the spirit of HN, because it is a shallow discussion terminator and an ad hominem all in one. It is too ambiguous to be about anything in particular, so we should just talk about the real issues specifically and in depth. If it is an issue to be against caste reforms, discuss that, don't just call someone woke and close the book. It is also a bit of a dog whistle even if accidentally, since it isn't actually about any specific issue, but people can still identify that they are against it. Call something "woke" and suddenly people who never cared about the issue before will have a problem with it. Language is weird though, the word has evolved a weird meaning and been co-opted by political agendas, so it is just nice to not drag that shitshow into real discussions as well.
- lolinder 4y ago
  > There are people who don't want a society that is just but they can't say it in the open (as much) any more, so they come up with euphemisms. There are also reasonable and good people who have legitimate disagreements about what a just society looks like and don't appreciate the "you're either with us or against us" attitude you're projecting. For example, I can be 100% on board with treating everyone respectfully and equally under the law while still thinking it's harmful to try to erase the contributions of good people from centuries past on the grounds that they weren't good enough by our modern standards. That's the kind of thing that I label "woke cancellation", and you'll never persuade me that judging a historical figure based on our modern values is just.

glitchc 4y ago

So, did you marry the girl or not? If not, did caste play a factor?

vishnugupta 4y ago

Thanks for sharing this! Those who are not exposed to the caste based discrimination or even the concept of caste can't begin to appreciate how insidious it is. Your comment brings forward perfectly how caste acts at multiple levels and is pervasive in the Indian society. My favourite example about this is from a (for the lack of better word) sub-religion named "Lingayats". It traces origins to a philosopher named Basavanna. He wanted a community sans discrimination so that every one from regardless of caste would be treated equally. And yet here we are, after hundreds of years, where there are 50+ castes/sub-castes in Lingayats too.

onetimeusename 4y ago
> exposed to the caste based discrimination or even the concept of caste I think there's two sides of caste. One is the socio-economic and the other is religious. It's very very hard for me to make a generality about the Hindu religion but my understanding is that (at least from what I have seen in one specific location) Hindu priests and religious leaders had to be Brahmin. It seemed like cleaniness, washing, and purity for things like pooja were taken extremely seriously. I don't see how you can hold those beliefs and not be exposed to the concept of caste. I know Hinduism has many sects and Brahmin is not even the only upper caste, so there might be other views and I have seen non Brahmins claim to be priests, etc. But at least mainstream, traditional Hinduism seemed like caste was a part of it. I would also distinguish that in India, a lot of Brahmin priests were actually poor so it's not necessarily higher in socio-economic status. I would be interested in hearing other perspectives though on views of caste because I definitely don't know a lot about Hinduism.
- anonymouskimmer 4y ago
  From what I recall, theoretically, and perhaps actually in the very distant past, caste was not hereditary. You gained your caste by your own actions. If you became a Hindu priest, and acted as a good one, you'd be a Brahmin by your acts. Things obviously changed.
MichaelZuo 4y ago
From quick searching it seems their total membership size is under 30 million. How could they sustain 50+ castes/sub-castes?

triyambakam 4y ago

I didn't grow up in India. How can I learn more about which names belong to which class?

delta_p_delta_x 4y ago
> How can I learn more about which names belong to which class? Any name that is overtly Sanskrit in origin and invokes some Hindu god(dess) is a tell-tale of upper-caste origin. Sometimes the name embeds the caste itself. This rule works across the North-South divide in India. North Indian examples: Dwi/Tri/Chaturvedi, Bharadvaj, Mukherji, Chatterji, Bandhopadhyay, Bhattacharya South Indian examples: Iyer, Iyengar, Rao, Murthy, Murali, Srinivasan, Vasudevan, etc.
- unmole 4y ago
  This is so hilariously wrong. On multiple levels.
  - delta_p_delta_x 4y ago
    How about elaborating on what is wrong, instead of merely saying so? Furthermore, are you claiming that a Bhattacharya or an Iyengar is not of an upper caste, or that their first/surnames are not explicitly Sanskrit in origin? I don't claim to generalise—there are always exceptions to the rule.
    - unmole 4y ago
      Let's see: - Iyengar is not of Sanskrit origin. On the other hand the unambiguously Dalit surname Chamar is. - First names are dictated more by fashion than by caste. And the names of deities are used across castes. The idea that first names are markers of caste will sound patently absurd to anyone living in India. - Rao and Murthy are used across castes. No South Indian will mistake them for caste markers. > I don't claim to generalise Really? Because "is a tell-tale of upper-caste origin" and "This rule works across the North-South divide in India" sound like generalizations to me. Do you really think propagating these misconceptions is productive?

meowtimemania 4y ago

What meditation practices do you use?

dalyons 4y ago

hey i just wanted to say thank you for writing this - it gives a really interesting insight into a set of complicated social/cultural practices. It's so easy to proclaim "i am above this" or "i would never", but I appreciate the vulnerability and honest self-reflection here.

KingOfCoders 4y ago

Thanks for your voice, too often Indian discussions on HN are feverishly dominated by a group of people drowning out all other voices.

bruceb 4y ago

So did you marry her?

fmajid 4y ago

Well yes, tribalism was a survival trait why is why conformity is so deeply ingrained in human minds and social organization. That said, in India caste (varna and jati) correlate with genetic clusters that have maintained for millennia by higher levels of endogamy than, say, Ashkenazi Jews: “What the data were showing us was that the genetic distinctions among jati groups within India were in many cases real, thanks to the long-standing history of endogamy in the subcontinent. People tend to think of India, with its more than 1.3 billion people, as having a tremendously large population, and indeed many Indians as well as foreigners see it this way. But genetically, this is an incorrect way to view the situation. The Han Chinese are truly a large population. They have been mixing freely for thousands of years. In contrast, there are few if any Indian groups that are demographically very large, and the degree of genetic differentiation among Indian jati groups living side by side in the same village is typically two to three times higher than the genetic differentiation between northern and southern Europeans. The truth is that India is composed of a large number of small populations.” Excerpt From Who We Are and How We Got Here, Chapter 6, “The Collision That Formed India” by David Reich

nemo44x 4y ago

It’s pretty common everywhere to avoid socializing or marrying someone from a place doesn’t share values. For instance you’d almost never see a woman from a well to do family marry a tradesman even if he’s a good man who would provide and is handsome.