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California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

399 points by miguelazo 4y ago

miguelazo 4y ago
Can't wait. AirBnB is one of the worst offenders here.
- warning26 4y ago
  Interestingly, I believe Australia already did this, and so if you go to Airbnb’s Australia site you see the real prices. Personally I hope this apppies to “resort fees” at hotels; it’s ridiculous that hotels can have a mandatory fee that they can exclude from their posted price.
  - zihotki 4y ago
    Indeed, in Australia it's already a law. It's a well-known hack - go to airbnb dot com site and append .au to get the the full price including all fees.
  - miguelazo 4y ago
    Agreed— “resort fees” are totally insane in places like Vegas and Hawaii. Even at hotels that aren’t actually resorts! Just because you have a pool and a gym doesn’t make you a resort!
- bushbaba 4y ago
  Airbnb isn’t even cheaper or more convenient for most travel situations.
  - sneak 4y ago
    It wasn't always so, but the hotel industry is large and powerful.
  - themitigating 4y ago
    Never?
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      Obviously you can never say never, but in my experience AirBnB is very rarely more economical than a full service hotel. And residential homes are rarely in as convenient a location as a hotel.
    - 93po 4y ago
      "most"
      - themitigating 4y ago
        Most?
  - miguelazo 4y ago
    This has been very true for several years now, unless you need a kitchen.
georgehaake 4y ago
[flagged]
bagels 4y ago
I hope this applies to "resort fees" that hotels charge and the dozens of types of service fees that restaurants invent (one around here had an ACA surcharge for political reasons).
eganist 4y ago
Tons of industries affected by this, though hospitality comes to mind as being particularly egregious. "resort fees" you can't get out of where they tell you what you're "getting" for those fees, Airbnb service fees, cleaning fees, things that should all be spread across the nightly rate. The feds doing this for airfare was the best thing to happen for consumers shopping for flights. Ideally we would take it further and include restaurant fees post-covid for fair wages when instead they frankly should just be hiking the cost of food and paying their teams properly. Not sure if this bill affects the service industry specifically but the late tacking-on of mandatory fees is getting egregious. --- Edit: I'm staying at an IHG property right now that says I'm getting the following for my $29 amenity fee: • $15 credit for incidentals • "premium" wifi • newspaper access • tablet from the front desk • free Lyft within two miles (this is kinda useful if you're too lazy to walk) • free EV charging • wine reception • business center • gym • free calls within CONUS I used none of these and yet they won't refund the fee.
- eclipticplane 4y ago
  Those resort fees are the absolute worst for corporate travel. E.g., the budget for a hotel might be $300/night so you get one for $290/night. Then they tack on a $45/night "resort fee" and suddenly you're getting yelled at by accounting for going over your budget. That is, if you even remember to expense it since they charge it to your incidental card ...
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    I have never been surprised by a resort fee. If I search on Hilton/Marriott/etc websites, the total price shown when making the reservation is always what I am asked to pay. I believe the resort fee is listed separately so that the hotel owner can reduce the amount of royalties paid to the hotel brand, since they get a 10% to 15% cut of revenue for accommodation charges, but presumably not for things like resort fees and whatnot.
    - ketralnis 4y ago
      Congrats. I have. Anecdote fight!
jojohack 4y ago
As others have said, I hope this applies to "resort fees" What makes it worse is many hotels having this hidden charge in parallel advertise a "complimentary" breakfast.
switz 4y ago
Taxes and fees should be mandated for all prices up front. This is how it works in most of the world, there's no good reason it shouldn't work that way here in the US. Someone will come along and point out an edge case, but for the vast majority of retail situations this is doable.
- sneak 4y ago
  This obscures the tax burden from the end user, transparently blending it with the price of the goods and the merchant's profit. Consumers should be consciously aware of the split.
  - Schnitz 4y ago
    It can be itemized on the receipt but the easily readable advertised price should be the number you pay, period.
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    Airlines are required to advertise total price, but break out taxes at purchase. This is a solved problem. https://www.transportation.gov/policy/aviation-policy/airline-rules-fares https://www.transportation.gov/policy/aviation-policy/airlin...
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - epicureanideal 4y ago
    Personally I find it very interesting that a $20 restaurant meal might only be netting $1 to the owner. Makes me feel like going out isn’t actually that bad of a deal.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      Lots of retail businesses have less than 5% profit margin. Even insurance companies, including health insurance, have less than 5% profit margins.
yieldcrv 4y ago
I almost booked a Turo for an extended period of time, peer to peer rental cars, it gave me a 40% discount for that time length, but all of that discount was erased by fees and it was more expensive than the previous page said it would be. Curb stomp them please, thanks.
- nilespotter 4y ago
  > Curb stomp them please, thanks. I'm not sure I've ever seen such a casual use of such violent imagery. I did not care for it.
forrestthewoods 4y ago
I wish they would treat sales tax as a hidden fee. Just show the actual damn price up front plzkthx.
- twblalock 4y ago
  If we had a standard sales tax, sure. But when sales taxes vary by city and county, like they do in California, it's very painful to do that -- and that's only 1 of the 50 states!
  - jimkleiber 4y ago
    It's also very painful for me to have to guess the final price with all these different sales taxes. I think maybe if it had to be included in the final price, then the cities and counties might standardize a bit more.
  - 93po 4y ago
    They're still having to make that calculation at the register. There's no reason they can't calculate it when making price tags.
  - Alupis 4y ago
    > like they do in California, it's very painful to do that -- and that's only 1 of the 50 states Not all 50 states have a tax system as absurd as California's, where it matters down to the exact part of the street you're standing on when buying something. Other states are the example CA should follow, not the other way around.
  - forrestthewoods 4y ago
    > it's very painful to do that Sure it's hard. Do I care? Not in even the slightest. I have not one picogram of care. The calculation is made at the point of sale. They can list a final price and work backwards. Does that make it harder for a business to set the price? Yeah maybe. I still don't care. It's a clearly solvable problem. It'd provide a superior consumer experience. It'd be slightly inconvenient for businesses. SHIP IT.
- 4y ago
Animats 4y ago
This over-regulation will interfere with the God-given right of companies to screw over the suckers. Next they'll be coming after payday loans for usury.
- themitigating 4y ago
  I know this is sarcastic and if you didn't post it first I would have. The inconsistencies some people have when complaining about regulation, California, and Democrats is just irritating
  - junofan 4y ago
    What does a consumer protection bill have to do with regulation?
    - ajkjk 4y ago
      Uh...
    - Animats 4y ago
      It interferes with the sacred Right of Contract.
  - megaman821 4y ago
    Regulation isn't a singular thing. People want more good regulations and less bad regulations. Even when good regulations exist, people want competent enforcement of the regulations. California passes a lot regulations, so there is a lot of red meat for either side of the regulations good/bad arguments.
    - themitigating 4y ago
      Republicans say they don't want more legislation, not "bad" legislation. Also good and bad are subjective
      - 4y ago
grandmczeb 4y ago
Interesting that fees imposed by the government are specifically exempted in this bill.
- nxm 4y ago
  Very Californian
  - themitigating 4y ago
    Yes, we should look at Texas where such a law doesn't exist.
- bialpio 4y ago
  When the state has a monopoly on something, does it really matter? It's not like you can go to the competition to renew your driver's license...
grahar64 4y ago
As a foreigner who lived in the USA for a few years, I always thought the US runs in hidden fees. From tipping, to taxes not in the sale price, to insurances not being able to give a price for a procedure, to hotel fees… I could never actually guess how much anything would cost. Either the wording of the law will have a ton of exclusions per industry.
- themitigating 4y ago
  "Either the wording of the law will have a ton of exclusions per industry." Even if it does it's better than no law.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    A complicated law only helps big business that has the resources to follow it. Look no further than the shit show of the 11 chapter 99 section GDPR.
    - themitigating 4y ago
      Businesses already have the total price for the checkout they can easily display it earlier.
- shagie 4y ago
  > to taxes not in the sale price This gets complicated and there's good reason. The taxes depend on where you take possession of the goods. If you purchase an item and walk up to the checkout counter, you pay the taxes there. On the other hand, if you are buying lumber in Kansas City, KS to be delivered in Kanas City, MO - you pay the MO taxes (4.225%) rather than the KS taxes (6.5%). So, putting the taxes on the lumber ($3.35) in KS would be $0.22 and if it was to be delivered on the other side of the state line, that would be $0.15. If you were to say "ahh! Lets solve this by having taxes paid for where you buy it instead" then everyone incorporates in Delaware and you get some sizable data centers in Oregon and sell everything online from there... and you've got other problems with states trying to collect sales tax on goods delivered there.
iamdamian 4y ago
This is welcome news. An egregious example of what they are (hopefully) aiming to stop: https://passingtime.substack.com/p/perfidious-pricing https://passingtime.substack.com/p/perfidious-pricing Also, a 2021 story from the Times about how drip pricing is getting out of control: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/02/opinion/consumers-drip-pricing.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/02/opinion/consumers-drip-pr...
- WirelessGigabit 4y ago
  I have always been disgusted by the AirBnB practice where they charge YOU a service fee and take out a % of the nightly fee the owner charges. Like who are they working for? Me? Or the b&b owner?
  - iamdamian 4y ago
    Not to mention the cleaning fee that's only disclosed when you make it to the purchase page, with the additional "House Rules" that you are required to take out the trash, strip the beds, and run the dishwasher before you leave. All the while, you don't get daily cleaning like you would in a hotel. It's pretty bad, and I'm gradually moving back to hotels, which are a known quantity.
causality0 4y ago
I find it very hard to believe that in the long run companies actually profit from having such a confrontational relationship with their customers. Like is getting an extra five dollars a month from me really worth me hating you?
- paxys 4y ago
  The problem is that shareholders and "activist investors" aren't exactly thinking about the long term. It's in their best interests to covert a company's goodwill into hard cash, do a series of share buybacks with the money, and then get out of the position.
  - asdff 4y ago
    A lot of it too is just lemmings being lemmings. There are no shareholder activist investors involved when your local brewpub tacks on a 25% service fee. That's just them doing what their other asshole small business owner friends have been doing and not a farsighted play or anything. I know they are assholes because I've overheard conversations of these types many times, especially during the pandemic complaining how none of their staff wants to return to work for the wages they are offering. For a lot of business owners, they end up looking at the numbers alone, weighing what they mean for their immediate cash flow much more than how those numbers impact their employees or even overall customer relations.
- asdff 4y ago
  Companies know that the number of people who would boycott them for a small fee is extraordinarily small. Most people take their medicine and move on with their lives, since its not like you have an alternative for most of these goods and services in life, or the alternative operates the exact same way. If it didn't work well these practices wouldn't be so widespread.
jawns 4y ago
"Californians are fed up with being bombarded by junk fees that, more and more, are making it unaffordable to attend a concert, go to a sporting event, take a vacation, or stay at a hotel." Oh, believe me, state Senator Nancy Skinner, requiring businesses to disclose these fees up front is not going to make these purchases any more affordable. Companies will either maintain the fees but comply with the disclosure requirement or remove the fees and jack up the base price accordingly. Either way, the goods and services they sell will not magically become cheaper. What it will do, however, is level the playing field, which is good for competition, and may have some indirect benefits for consumers. So I'm very much in support of requiring up-front pricing. (In fact, it would be lovely to see pricing that's inclusive of all taxes as well.)
- 8ytecoder 4y ago
  Assuming the companies are not hiding the fees for shits and giggles, we should see an impact albeit not as large as the entire fees but not $0 either.
- lclarkmichalek 4y ago
  Unbundling is a real thing, with some pronounced second order affects. The first order effect of charging for in flight food service and checked bagged is purely redistributive, but rise of low cost, heavily unbundled airlines has increased the total market for air travel, increasing net economic activity in the sector.
- 88913527 4y ago
  Leveling the playing field means increased competition which means better prices for consumers. It does make it more affordable. Your listed examples are discretionary purchases. So it might not matter much to higher earners, but I'm sure some median earners bounce when they make it to the final step in the checkout flow when all the fees are revealed and now it's out of budget.
- HDThoreaun 4y ago
  increasing competition lowers prices.
justinzollars 4y ago
[flagged]
mhb 4y ago
No mention of the ludicrous conglomeration of mobile phone fees?
- eatsyourtacos 4y ago
  Yeah that is annoying as hell. Comcast mobile is actually very clear and open- they have no hidden fees. Surprising from them. Verizon can f off, 20%+ extra "fees" all the time.. glad I'm done with them.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    T-mobile advertises monthly fees inclusive of all taxes and fees
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    Yeah it's interesting that I find myself saying something positive about Comcast. Their Internet pricing is similar. Advertised at $72/month, that's exactly what I pay. No additional fees tacked on.
eatsyourtacos 4y ago
I don't use things like Uber Eats very much.. but I did last week. It would literally NOT SHOW ME the all in price before I had to click order. It only showed me what the restaurant was charging me. I think earlier in the process it did show the delivery fees of some sort, to be fair. But at the very final point they hide it from you, which is absolutely insane it's even legal.
parasense 4y ago
So like... what about the way CA taxes people who live in other states... Seems kind of like hidden fees to me... folks livign out of state, but went on vacation to CA, or flew to the the bay area on a business trip, or whatever... The biggest hidden fee of all time is CA taxing out of state entities.
EGreg 4y ago
Does this mean hospitals will have to tell you what they charge upfront?
bryanlarsen 4y ago
The Republican response: Smart politics, but bad economics. Ban baggage fees = higher ticket prices Ban resort fees = higher room prices Ban credit card late fees = higher interest rates These proposals just make some consumers pay more to cover the costs of other consumers. https://twitter.com/George_A_Callas/status/1623329182779318274 https://twitter.com/George_A_Callas/status/16233291827793182... There is a point hidden in there, in that banning optional fees makes the price go up for people who refuse the option. But when the fee is mandatory, hiding it is basically pure evil. Much more developed argument than my pure evil comment: https://www.slowboring.com/p/junk-fees https://www.slowboring.com/p/junk-fees
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  It's not a terrible argument, except for resort fees. Tell me how I can opt out.
- xbar 4y ago
  Consumers always pay the same. It's just not clear until it's too late.
siliconc0w 4y ago
Every business has started doing this and I'm glad there is finally some consumer protection happening.. It's worse than the bronze/gold/platinum 'memberships' or 'package' schemes that have shown up everywhere. My dog's boarding place hit me with three fees on pickup (they also have like 200 permutations of packages that try monetize every possible marginal activity - taking pictures with your dog, letting them hang out with staff 'up front', allegedly watching movies with them, each individual toy or treat, etc). It's sad that we have to look to government to solve basic stuff like this. I'd rather not regulate everything to death but the alternative is annoying shit like this. Like I could try to go to another dog boarding place, but there just aren't that many of them and they probably do the same thing. I bet they're all owned by the same private equity firm anyway.
ec109685 4y ago
While different, it irks me that there are a bunch of hidden fees with UberEats and DoorDash. Not only do delivery companies charge the consumer fees, but restaurants generally raise their prices by 50% if you are buying through an app. That delta is not shown anywhere.
- nanidin 4y ago
  Include Instacart in that group that charges more than the price on the shelf at the store, then adds on service and delivery fees on top of that.
  - zeroonetwothree 4y ago
    And then they get half the items wrong anyway
hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
I think a lot of comments here are missing the reason as to why these hidden fees have become so much more prevalent in the past 20 or so years. The short of it is that comparison pricing is now much easier to do because of the Internet, and many, if not a majority, of shoppers will just sort by price ascending and pick the first result (or, only pick from the first couple results). Thus, there is a huge incentive for companies to lower the base price and then get it back with these types of fees. Even if they didn't add BS fees, this ease of price comparison has resulted in unbundling of services in a number of industries - e.g. airlines where the base price is akin to "we let you hang on to the wing", and everything else is an upcharge. This is also a case where consumers say they want one thing, but their behavior is a different matter. For example, pretty much everyone says they prefer the full price to be shown up front in search result pages. But, as someone who is privy to a ton of A/B testing in this area, the opposite nearly always results in higher conversion, where there is a lower up-front price and fees are only tacked on during checkout. To be clear, I'm 100% in favor of this regulation because I think it's the perfect example of where what is good for any individual company leads to a dysfunctional market, and so government can provide a level playing field. Heck, I think many businesses would support this change, because they no longer need to try to one-up their competitors by overcomplicating their pricing structure.
- pydry 4y ago
  >But, as someone who is privy to a ton of A/B testing in this area, the opposite nearly always results in higher conversion, where there is a lower up-front price and fees are only tacked on during checkout. That is evidence that bait and switch works, not that people want it.
  - 93po 4y ago
    I think OP recognizes that, but is simply stating that product decisions are based on user behavior, which rewards bait and switch
- vkou 4y ago
  Well, of course bait-and-switch is going to result in a higher conversion rate than showing the price up front. I'd like to not be swindled, but if the marketplace is half-swindlers and half-honest people, it's highly likely I'll be taken in by the former. What the kind of heuristic am I expected to use to avoid getting swindled?
paul7986 4y ago
im using hotels more and more often over Air BnB as their clickbait pricing reminds and makes me feel like Im dealing with a cable TV company such as Comcast.
jawadch93 4y ago
[dead]
denton-scratch 4y ago
> other than taxes and fees imposed by a government. Why that exclusion? Why not require the price on the label to be the price you pay?
- russdill 4y ago
  This makes sense for location specific services. If you are trying to compare two hotel rooms, by so means, they should be forced to include all the taxes they require since that doesn't involve your location and is important when comparing prices. But should not be a requirement for products where I would need to pay my local tax as that would require me to enter my location and would not provide any interesting extra information between products.
jawadch93 4y ago
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adolph 4y ago
Are hidden fees like the fuel taxes that get bundled into the stated price, or like sales taxes that are calculated at purchase time?
- criddell 4y ago
  No. Hidden fees are for items that are broken out from the sales price and they aren’t optional. A good example used earlier in this thread is hotel resort fees. Even if you don’t use any of the amenities that the charge is for, you are still charged that fee and it isn’t part of the advertised price.
yumraj 4y ago
I hope this applies to like Airbnb, Ticketmaster and so on who disclose late service fees.
stall84 4y ago
I'm sure every Californian, appropriately for this time of year, are taking a look at that state income tax return looming thinking "God what an amazing use of my tax dollars.. "
gnicholas 4y ago
This is coming pretty hot on the heels of Biden's announcement. Does anyone know if this was already underway when Biden made this a key aspect of his SOTU address? It seems kind of weird to front-run the President (of your own party, in particular).
coding123 4y ago
Yes I think CA should be the next state to rid itself of sales tax!
- russdill 4y ago
  As an opportunity to move to a more progressive tax system? Helping to reduce the tax load on lower income folks and shifting it up the tax bracket?
jimkleiber 4y ago
> The legislation — the first bill of its type across the state — would prohibit advertising a price for a good or service that does not include all required charges other than taxes and fees imposed by a government. I don't get it, so it's OK for government to hide its fees but not the business? I wish the government were to lead by example and also try to eliminate hidden government fees. Here in California, different cities can have different sales tax, and knowing the final price can seem like a guessing game. I would love if taxes, tips, and other business fees were all included in a final price that were stated upfront.
- denton-scratch 4y ago
  > I don't get it, so it's OK for government to hide its fees but not the business? Other way round; the bill would make it mandatory to include all fees except the government's fees.
  - jimkleiber 4y ago
    Yeah, I think they'd have a stronger argument if they mandated all fees to be included, including government fees.
tehranian 4y ago
>>> The legislation — the first bill of its type across the state — would prohibit advertising a price for a good or service that does not include all required charges other than taxes and fees imposed by a government. >>> “Californians are sick and tired of dishonest fees being tacked on to seemingly everything,” said state Senator Bill Dodd. “It’s an underhanded trick... Why do government-imposed fees get a special exemption these "dishonest" and "underhanded" tricks? :thinking: ;) Note: In Europe, the advertised price always includes the related taxes: https://www.quora.com/Do-prices-in-Europe-include-taxes https://www.quora.com/Do-prices-in-Europe-include-taxes
- russdill 4y ago
  Because they vary based on the municipality you live in.
- tzs 4y ago
  > Note: In Europe, the advertised price always includes the related taxes How does that work for prices in broadcast ads that reach multiple countries? VAT can vary from country to country so which country's VAT rate do you use in the ad?
  - troad 4y ago
    There really isn't a lot of multi-country advertising in Europe. You're going to run into bigger problems than showing correct VAT rates - language being probably the most obvious one, but also different regulatory requirements for things like mandatory warnings, watershed rules, etc. In practice, advertising is always going to need to be adapted for every European market.
- zeroonetwothree 4y ago
  Government taxes are at least fairly consistent so it doesn’t matter for comparison shopping.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
93po 4y ago
Income tax also feels like a hidden fee since it's automatically deducted from your paycheck and is out of sight/out of mind for most people, despite it taking anywhere from a quarter to a third of your income. If people had to pay a monthly tax bill every month, I think they'd think very differently about their level of taxes. Note: I'm not actually advocating that, I think it sounds awful. But the hidden-fee experience feels very similar
- tonightstoast 4y ago
  I don’t know where you’ve worked but you can choose to not let your employer deduct anything. Normally it’s done automatically to ensure that you don’t get it with an unaffordable tax bill at the end of the year.
  - 93po 4y ago
    In the US, employers are legally required to withhold. You can only ask them not to if: "the employee must have had no tax liability for the previous year and must expect to have no tax liability for the current year."
jmyeet 4y ago
Airfares are another big culprit for this. When oil was at a high price, airlines started charging "fuel surcharges". There's no such thing. That service simply costs more. I think they also did it to (further) erode awards redemptions because they still had to pay any additional fees. Uber famously did this with a safety fee when there was a string of negative news reports. What did this fee do? Literally nothing. They just pocketed it. Airbnb is an obvious one of course. Whenever I see anything like lack of transparent pricing and the necessary for such legislation, I have to chuckle at the expense of anarchists and libertarians because a strong government is necessary for any market to function. How are there any anarchists or libertarians at all?
deleted 4y ago
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ocdtrekkie 4y ago
I love how this January, my ISP added one new fee and increased the price of an existing fee and the rental cost of my modem (which was bought by a previous ISP to begin with, it's pure profit until it breaks), and those three random fee increases magically total to increasing my bill by exactly ten dollars. While it was framed as three little fee changes, it's obvious there was a directive to up the bill by $10 a month, and then they just found lines to bump without touching the actual main one.
gwbas1c 4y ago
> other than taxes and fees imposed by a government IMO, taxes need to be part of the advertised price. Part of the reason we tolerate hidden fees in the US is because we're used to paying more than the sticker price for something because it doesn't include taxes (and tip.) If I lived in CA, I'd contact my reps and ask them to redo the bill to also include taxes and tips. It's not right to eliminate some kinds of hidden fees while still keeping government hidden fees.
- jmugan 4y ago
  I agree but worry that could derail this good legislation.
granshaw 4y ago
Can we also mandate any included taxes in the listed price, like elsewhere in the world? kthxbai
6gvONxR4sf7o 4y ago
> The legislation — the first bill of its type across the state — would prohibit advertising a price for a good or service that does not include all required charges other than taxes and fees imposed by a government. I wish it included the taxes and government fees also. The whole hidden fee culture seems to be enabled by us all being so accustomed to paying extra at checkout.
el_don_almighty 4y ago
Does this law include taxes like Social Security? Many people think they only pay 7.5% and the company pays the other 7.5% but this is wrong. The employee pays the whole 15%, they just don't see it come out of their check. Does that count as a "hidden fee?" What about VAT taxes?
- zeroonetwothree 4y ago
  You could argue the same about corporate income taxes but everyone here seems to love those
yadaeno 4y ago
The hotel industry has the most egregious fees in my opinion. You pay online, then you show up and they demand $90 for cleaning and other fees. I hope this goes through and moves us towards a sane direction.
checkyoursudo 4y ago
Guess all of us outside of CA are going make up the difference via higher hidden fees. :( I started writing this comment as a joke, but I no longer am sure that it is.
MR4D 4y ago
I can’t wait to see the unintended effects of this bill on healthcare. If we’re lucky, this bill might actually accomplish something!
Vixel 4y ago
I wish this bill was "ban ALL FEES" period. Classifying something as "junk" or "hidden" sounds like a nightmare that plenty of businesses and industries will find way around. Get back to bottom line pricing, taxes included, and watch competition rise while prices fall
cuteboy19 4y ago
It is unfortunate that there is no group that sits down and harmonizes all these laws across state lines. Why should it be that the way to do business is slightly different in CA vs NC? If this remains the situation, then the only companies which thrive will be the ones with an army of lawyers. There is not much hope for smaller businesses in such an environment
hoonaneaRich 4y ago
The only purpose of a “resort fee” is to deceive. Customers are more likely to book if a lower rate is advertised. Taxing authorities lose revenue because hotel rooms are taxed at a much higher rate than “fees”. Travel agents are shorted their full commissions because they are based on the room rate. The resort fee scam has spread to other areas. Where do you think Ticketmaster and airlines got the idea to deconstruct their pricing schemes? How about restaurants now adding fees in the fine print for everything from mandated health care to “area marketing plans” to higher cfedit card charges…instead of simply adjusting prices on the menu? This consumer fraud has been ongoing since at least 1994 in Hawaii and 2010 elsewhere it escaped its “Maui Quarantine”. It is long past time that honesty in pricing be recognized and an enforced as a basic consumer protection.
logicalmonster 4y ago
> Sellers often hide these additional, mandatory charges by using small type, vague descriptions or misleading wording such as “service fees,” by bundling them with legitimate charges like taxes, or revealing them clearly only after the consumer has invested time in the transaction. The tiny libertarian inside of me recoils at the description of taxes as legitimate, but that's a point for a different type of discussion. I'd just like to call attention to the concept of hidden fees being called out. And remember, that's fees, as in plural. Government officials are pointing out that multiple end of sale charges can be confusing and misleading dark patterns? Ok, great, lets analyze that logic through for consistency. Governments are engaging in the same bullshit. Look at how many Government Fees and taxes are on my basic phone bill. > City District Sales Tax - Telecom > City Sales Tax - Telecom > County Public Safety Communications Surcharge > State Sales Tax - Telecom > State Public Safety Communications Surcharge There might be at least a few more, but I can't quite confirm if they're actually taxes or not. You might say that paying a tax is a necessary part of a functional society. Again, I'm not here to debate that. But why the bullshit with having an entire pile of random taxes given in a piecemeal fashion? If it's misleading and complicated for consumers to understand payments with 500 different surcharges and fees, certainly consumers also aren't understanding their true tax burden if they're nickle and dimed with tons of extra taxes that are only visible at the end of the process and not spelled out up front. If it's good for consumers to know about all of their commercial fees, shouldn't the same logic apply to taxation? Shouldn't voters be made to understand their true tax burden in the simplest fashion possible?

399 points by miguelazo 4y ago

miguelazo 4y ago

Can't wait. AirBnB is one of the worst offenders here.

warning26 4y ago
Interestingly, I believe Australia already did this, and so if you go to Airbnb’s Australia site you see the real prices. Personally I hope this apppies to “resort fees” at hotels; it’s ridiculous that hotels can have a mandatory fee that they can exclude from their posted price.
- zihotki 4y ago
  Indeed, in Australia it's already a law. It's a well-known hack - go to airbnb dot com site and append .au to get the the full price including all fees.
- miguelazo 4y ago
  Agreed— “resort fees” are totally insane in places like Vegas and Hawaii. Even at hotels that aren’t actually resorts! Just because you have a pool and a gym doesn’t make you a resort!
bushbaba 4y ago
Airbnb isn’t even cheaper or more convenient for most travel situations.
- sneak 4y ago
  It wasn't always so, but the hotel industry is large and powerful.
- themitigating 4y ago
  Never?
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    Obviously you can never say never, but in my experience AirBnB is very rarely more economical than a full service hotel. And residential homes are rarely in as convenient a location as a hotel.
  - 93po 4y ago
    "most"
    - themitigating 4y ago
      Most?
- miguelazo 4y ago
  This has been very true for several years now, unless you need a kitchen.

georgehaake 4y ago

[flagged]

bagels 4y ago

I hope this applies to "resort fees" that hotels charge and the dozens of types of service fees that restaurants invent (one around here had an ACA surcharge for political reasons).

eganist 4y ago

Tons of industries affected by this, though hospitality comes to mind as being particularly egregious. "resort fees" you can't get out of where they tell you what you're "getting" for those fees, Airbnb service fees, cleaning fees, things that should all be spread across the nightly rate. The feds doing this for airfare was the best thing to happen for consumers shopping for flights. Ideally we would take it further and include restaurant fees post-covid for fair wages when instead they frankly should just be hiking the cost of food and paying their teams properly. Not sure if this bill affects the service industry specifically but the late tacking-on of mandatory fees is getting egregious. --- Edit: I'm staying at an IHG property right now that says I'm getting the following for my $29 amenity fee: • $15 credit for incidentals • "premium" wifi • newspaper access • tablet from the front desk • free Lyft within two miles (this is kinda useful if you're too lazy to walk) • free EV charging • wine reception • business center • gym • free calls within CONUS I used none of these and yet they won't refund the fee.

eclipticplane 4y ago
Those resort fees are the absolute worst for corporate travel. E.g., the budget for a hotel might be $300/night so you get one for $290/night. Then they tack on a $45/night "resort fee" and suddenly you're getting yelled at by accounting for going over your budget. That is, if you even remember to expense it since they charge it to your incidental card ...
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  I have never been surprised by a resort fee. If I search on Hilton/Marriott/etc websites, the total price shown when making the reservation is always what I am asked to pay. I believe the resort fee is listed separately so that the hotel owner can reduce the amount of royalties paid to the hotel brand, since they get a 10% to 15% cut of revenue for accommodation charges, but presumably not for things like resort fees and whatnot.
  - ketralnis 4y ago
    Congrats. I have. Anecdote fight!

jojohack 4y ago

As others have said, I hope this applies to "resort fees" What makes it worse is many hotels having this hidden charge in parallel advertise a "complimentary" breakfast.

switz 4y ago

Taxes and fees should be mandated for all prices up front. This is how it works in most of the world, there's no good reason it shouldn't work that way here in the US. Someone will come along and point out an edge case, but for the vast majority of retail situations this is doable.

sneak 4y ago
This obscures the tax burden from the end user, transparently blending it with the price of the goods and the merchant's profit. Consumers should be consciously aware of the split.
- Schnitz 4y ago
  It can be itemized on the receipt but the easily readable advertised price should be the number you pay, period.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  Airlines are required to advertise total price, but break out taxes at purchase. This is a solved problem. https://www.transportation.gov/policy/aviation-policy/airline-rules-fares https://www.transportation.gov/policy/aviation-policy/airlin...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- epicureanideal 4y ago
  Personally I find it very interesting that a $20 restaurant meal might only be netting $1 to the owner. Makes me feel like going out isn’t actually that bad of a deal.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    Lots of retail businesses have less than 5% profit margin. Even insurance companies, including health insurance, have less than 5% profit margins.

yieldcrv 4y ago

I almost booked a Turo for an extended period of time, peer to peer rental cars, it gave me a 40% discount for that time length, but all of that discount was erased by fees and it was more expensive than the previous page said it would be. Curb stomp them please, thanks.

nilespotter 4y ago
> Curb stomp them please, thanks. I'm not sure I've ever seen such a casual use of such violent imagery. I did not care for it.

forrestthewoods 4y ago

I wish they would treat sales tax as a hidden fee. Just show the actual damn price up front plzkthx.

twblalock 4y ago
If we had a standard sales tax, sure. But when sales taxes vary by city and county, like they do in California, it's very painful to do that -- and that's only 1 of the 50 states!
- jimkleiber 4y ago
  It's also very painful for me to have to guess the final price with all these different sales taxes. I think maybe if it had to be included in the final price, then the cities and counties might standardize a bit more.
- 93po 4y ago
  They're still having to make that calculation at the register. There's no reason they can't calculate it when making price tags.
- Alupis 4y ago
  > like they do in California, it's very painful to do that -- and that's only 1 of the 50 states Not all 50 states have a tax system as absurd as California's, where it matters down to the exact part of the street you're standing on when buying something. Other states are the example CA should follow, not the other way around.
- forrestthewoods 4y ago
  > it's very painful to do that Sure it's hard. Do I care? Not in even the slightest. I have not one picogram of care. The calculation is made at the point of sale. They can list a final price and work backwards. Does that make it harder for a business to set the price? Yeah maybe. I still don't care. It's a clearly solvable problem. It'd provide a superior consumer experience. It'd be slightly inconvenient for businesses. SHIP IT.
4y ago

Animats 4y ago

This over-regulation will interfere with the God-given right of companies to screw over the suckers. Next they'll be coming after payday loans for usury.

themitigating 4y ago
I know this is sarcastic and if you didn't post it first I would have. The inconsistencies some people have when complaining about regulation, California, and Democrats is just irritating
- junofan 4y ago
  What does a consumer protection bill have to do with regulation?
  - ajkjk 4y ago
    Uh...
  - Animats 4y ago
    It interferes with the sacred Right of Contract.
- megaman821 4y ago
  Regulation isn't a singular thing. People want more good regulations and less bad regulations. Even when good regulations exist, people want competent enforcement of the regulations. California passes a lot regulations, so there is a lot of red meat for either side of the regulations good/bad arguments.
  - themitigating 4y ago
    Republicans say they don't want more legislation, not "bad" legislation. Also good and bad are subjective
    - 4y ago

grandmczeb 4y ago

Interesting that fees imposed by the government are specifically exempted in this bill.

nxm 4y ago
Very Californian
- themitigating 4y ago
  Yes, we should look at Texas where such a law doesn't exist.
bialpio 4y ago
When the state has a monopoly on something, does it really matter? It's not like you can go to the competition to renew your driver's license...

grahar64 4y ago

As a foreigner who lived in the USA for a few years, I always thought the US runs in hidden fees. From tipping, to taxes not in the sale price, to insurances not being able to give a price for a procedure, to hotel fees… I could never actually guess how much anything would cost. Either the wording of the law will have a ton of exclusions per industry.

themitigating 4y ago
"Either the wording of the law will have a ton of exclusions per industry." Even if it does it's better than no law.
- scarface74 4y ago
  A complicated law only helps big business that has the resources to follow it. Look no further than the shit show of the 11 chapter 99 section GDPR.
  - themitigating 4y ago
    Businesses already have the total price for the checkout they can easily display it earlier.
shagie 4y ago
> to taxes not in the sale price This gets complicated and there's good reason. The taxes depend on where you take possession of the goods. If you purchase an item and walk up to the checkout counter, you pay the taxes there. On the other hand, if you are buying lumber in Kansas City, KS to be delivered in Kanas City, MO - you pay the MO taxes (4.225%) rather than the KS taxes (6.5%). So, putting the taxes on the lumber ($3.35) in KS would be $0.22 and if it was to be delivered on the other side of the state line, that would be $0.15. If you were to say "ahh! Lets solve this by having taxes paid for where you buy it instead" then everyone incorporates in Delaware and you get some sizable data centers in Oregon and sell everything online from there... and you've got other problems with states trying to collect sales tax on goods delivered there.

iamdamian 4y ago

This is welcome news. An egregious example of what they are (hopefully) aiming to stop: https://passingtime.substack.com/p/perfidious-pricing https://passingtime.substack.com/p/perfidious-pricing Also, a 2021 story from the Times about how drip pricing is getting out of control: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/02/opinion/consumers-drip-pricing.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/02/opinion/consumers-drip-pr...

WirelessGigabit 4y ago
I have always been disgusted by the AirBnB practice where they charge YOU a service fee and take out a % of the nightly fee the owner charges. Like who are they working for? Me? Or the b&b owner?
- iamdamian 4y ago
  Not to mention the cleaning fee that's only disclosed when you make it to the purchase page, with the additional "House Rules" that you are required to take out the trash, strip the beds, and run the dishwasher before you leave. All the while, you don't get daily cleaning like you would in a hotel. It's pretty bad, and I'm gradually moving back to hotels, which are a known quantity.

causality0 4y ago

I find it very hard to believe that in the long run companies actually profit from having such a confrontational relationship with their customers. Like is getting an extra five dollars a month from me really worth me hating you?

paxys 4y ago
The problem is that shareholders and "activist investors" aren't exactly thinking about the long term. It's in their best interests to covert a company's goodwill into hard cash, do a series of share buybacks with the money, and then get out of the position.
- asdff 4y ago
  A lot of it too is just lemmings being lemmings. There are no shareholder activist investors involved when your local brewpub tacks on a 25% service fee. That's just them doing what their other asshole small business owner friends have been doing and not a farsighted play or anything. I know they are assholes because I've overheard conversations of these types many times, especially during the pandemic complaining how none of their staff wants to return to work for the wages they are offering. For a lot of business owners, they end up looking at the numbers alone, weighing what they mean for their immediate cash flow much more than how those numbers impact their employees or even overall customer relations.
asdff 4y ago
Companies know that the number of people who would boycott them for a small fee is extraordinarily small. Most people take their medicine and move on with their lives, since its not like you have an alternative for most of these goods and services in life, or the alternative operates the exact same way. If it didn't work well these practices wouldn't be so widespread.

jawns 4y ago

"Californians are fed up with being bombarded by junk fees that, more and more, are making it unaffordable to attend a concert, go to a sporting event, take a vacation, or stay at a hotel." Oh, believe me, state Senator Nancy Skinner, requiring businesses to disclose these fees up front is not going to make these purchases any more affordable. Companies will either maintain the fees but comply with the disclosure requirement or remove the fees and jack up the base price accordingly. Either way, the goods and services they sell will not magically become cheaper. What it will do, however, is level the playing field, which is good for competition, and may have some indirect benefits for consumers. So I'm very much in support of requiring up-front pricing. (In fact, it would be lovely to see pricing that's inclusive of all taxes as well.)

8ytecoder 4y ago
Assuming the companies are not hiding the fees for shits and giggles, we should see an impact albeit not as large as the entire fees but not $0 either.
lclarkmichalek 4y ago
Unbundling is a real thing, with some pronounced second order affects. The first order effect of charging for in flight food service and checked bagged is purely redistributive, but rise of low cost, heavily unbundled airlines has increased the total market for air travel, increasing net economic activity in the sector.
88913527 4y ago
Leveling the playing field means increased competition which means better prices for consumers. It does make it more affordable. Your listed examples are discretionary purchases. So it might not matter much to higher earners, but I'm sure some median earners bounce when they make it to the final step in the checkout flow when all the fees are revealed and now it's out of budget.
HDThoreaun 4y ago
increasing competition lowers prices.

justinzollars 4y ago

[flagged]

mhb 4y ago

No mention of the ludicrous conglomeration of mobile phone fees?

eatsyourtacos 4y ago
Yeah that is annoying as hell. Comcast mobile is actually very clear and open- they have no hidden fees. Surprising from them. Verizon can f off, 20%+ extra "fees" all the time.. glad I'm done with them.
- scarface74 4y ago
  T-mobile advertises monthly fees inclusive of all taxes and fees
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  Yeah it's interesting that I find myself saying something positive about Comcast. Their Internet pricing is similar. Advertised at $72/month, that's exactly what I pay. No additional fees tacked on.

eatsyourtacos 4y ago

I don't use things like Uber Eats very much.. but I did last week. It would literally NOT SHOW ME the all in price before I had to click order. It only showed me what the restaurant was charging me. I think earlier in the process it did show the delivery fees of some sort, to be fair. But at the very final point they hide it from you, which is absolutely insane it's even legal.

parasense 4y ago

So like... what about the way CA taxes people who live in other states... Seems kind of like hidden fees to me... folks livign out of state, but went on vacation to CA, or flew to the the bay area on a business trip, or whatever... The biggest hidden fee of all time is CA taxing out of state entities.

EGreg 4y ago

Does this mean hospitals will have to tell you what they charge upfront?

bryanlarsen 4y ago

The Republican response: Smart politics, but bad economics. Ban baggage fees = higher ticket prices Ban resort fees = higher room prices Ban credit card late fees = higher interest rates These proposals just make some consumers pay more to cover the costs of other consumers. https://twitter.com/George_A_Callas/status/1623329182779318274 https://twitter.com/George_A_Callas/status/16233291827793182... There is a point hidden in there, in that banning optional fees makes the price go up for people who refuse the option. But when the fee is mandatory, hiding it is basically pure evil. Much more developed argument than my pure evil comment: https://www.slowboring.com/p/junk-fees https://www.slowboring.com/p/junk-fees

rootusrootus 4y ago
It's not a terrible argument, except for resort fees. Tell me how I can opt out.
xbar 4y ago
Consumers always pay the same. It's just not clear until it's too late.

siliconc0w 4y ago

Every business has started doing this and I'm glad there is finally some consumer protection happening.. It's worse than the bronze/gold/platinum 'memberships' or 'package' schemes that have shown up everywhere. My dog's boarding place hit me with three fees on pickup (they also have like 200 permutations of packages that try monetize every possible marginal activity - taking pictures with your dog, letting them hang out with staff 'up front', allegedly watching movies with them, each individual toy or treat, etc). It's sad that we have to look to government to solve basic stuff like this. I'd rather not regulate everything to death but the alternative is annoying shit like this. Like I could try to go to another dog boarding place, but there just aren't that many of them and they probably do the same thing. I bet they're all owned by the same private equity firm anyway.

ec109685 4y ago

While different, it irks me that there are a bunch of hidden fees with UberEats and DoorDash. Not only do delivery companies charge the consumer fees, but restaurants generally raise their prices by 50% if you are buying through an app. That delta is not shown anywhere.

nanidin 4y ago
Include Instacart in that group that charges more than the price on the shelf at the store, then adds on service and delivery fees on top of that.
- zeroonetwothree 4y ago
  And then they get half the items wrong anyway

hn_throwaway_99 4y ago

I think a lot of comments here are missing the reason as to why these hidden fees have become so much more prevalent in the past 20 or so years. The short of it is that comparison pricing is now much easier to do because of the Internet, and many, if not a majority, of shoppers will just sort by price ascending and pick the first result (or, only pick from the first couple results). Thus, there is a huge incentive for companies to lower the base price and then get it back with these types of fees. Even if they didn't add BS fees, this ease of price comparison has resulted in unbundling of services in a number of industries - e.g. airlines where the base price is akin to "we let you hang on to the wing", and everything else is an upcharge. This is also a case where consumers say they want one thing, but their behavior is a different matter. For example, pretty much everyone says they prefer the full price to be shown up front in search result pages. But, as someone who is privy to a ton of A/B testing in this area, the opposite nearly always results in higher conversion, where there is a lower up-front price and fees are only tacked on during checkout. To be clear, I'm 100% in favor of this regulation because I think it's the perfect example of where what is good for any individual company leads to a dysfunctional market, and so government can provide a level playing field. Heck, I think many businesses would support this change, because they no longer need to try to one-up their competitors by overcomplicating their pricing structure.

pydry 4y ago
>But, as someone who is privy to a ton of A/B testing in this area, the opposite nearly always results in higher conversion, where there is a lower up-front price and fees are only tacked on during checkout. That is evidence that bait and switch works, not that people want it.
- 93po 4y ago
  I think OP recognizes that, but is simply stating that product decisions are based on user behavior, which rewards bait and switch
vkou 4y ago
Well, of course bait-and-switch is going to result in a higher conversion rate than showing the price up front. I'd like to not be swindled, but if the marketplace is half-swindlers and half-honest people, it's highly likely I'll be taken in by the former. What the kind of heuristic am I expected to use to avoid getting swindled?

paul7986 4y ago

im using hotels more and more often over Air BnB as their clickbait pricing reminds and makes me feel like Im dealing with a cable TV company such as Comcast.

jawadch93 4y ago

[dead]

denton-scratch 4y ago

> other than taxes and fees imposed by a government. Why that exclusion? Why not require the price on the label to be the price you pay?

russdill 4y ago
This makes sense for location specific services. If you are trying to compare two hotel rooms, by so means, they should be forced to include all the taxes they require since that doesn't involve your location and is important when comparing prices. But should not be a requirement for products where I would need to pay my local tax as that would require me to enter my location and would not provide any interesting extra information between products.

jawadch93 4y ago

[dead]

adolph 4y ago

Are hidden fees like the fuel taxes that get bundled into the stated price, or like sales taxes that are calculated at purchase time?

criddell 4y ago
No. Hidden fees are for items that are broken out from the sales price and they aren’t optional. A good example used earlier in this thread is hotel resort fees. Even if you don’t use any of the amenities that the charge is for, you are still charged that fee and it isn’t part of the advertised price.

yumraj 4y ago

I hope this applies to like Airbnb, Ticketmaster and so on who disclose late service fees.

stall84 4y ago

I'm sure every Californian, appropriately for this time of year, are taking a look at that state income tax return looming thinking "God what an amazing use of my tax dollars.. "

gnicholas 4y ago

This is coming pretty hot on the heels of Biden's announcement. Does anyone know if this was already underway when Biden made this a key aspect of his SOTU address? It seems kind of weird to front-run the President (of your own party, in particular).

coding123 4y ago

Yes I think CA should be the next state to rid itself of sales tax!

russdill 4y ago
As an opportunity to move to a more progressive tax system? Helping to reduce the tax load on lower income folks and shifting it up the tax bracket?

jimkleiber 4y ago

> The legislation — the first bill of its type across the state — would prohibit advertising a price for a good or service that does not include all required charges other than taxes and fees imposed by a government. I don't get it, so it's OK for government to hide its fees but not the business? I wish the government were to lead by example and also try to eliminate hidden government fees. Here in California, different cities can have different sales tax, and knowing the final price can seem like a guessing game. I would love if taxes, tips, and other business fees were all included in a final price that were stated upfront.

denton-scratch 4y ago
> I don't get it, so it's OK for government to hide its fees but not the business? Other way round; the bill would make it mandatory to include all fees except the government's fees.
- jimkleiber 4y ago
  Yeah, I think they'd have a stronger argument if they mandated all fees to be included, including government fees.

tehranian 4y ago

>>> The legislation — the first bill of its type across the state — would prohibit advertising a price for a good or service that does not include all required charges other than taxes and fees imposed by a government. >>> “Californians are sick and tired of dishonest fees being tacked on to seemingly everything,” said state Senator Bill Dodd. “It’s an underhanded trick... Why do government-imposed fees get a special exemption these "dishonest" and "underhanded" tricks? :thinking: ;) Note: In Europe, the advertised price always includes the related taxes: https://www.quora.com/Do-prices-in-Europe-include-taxes https://www.quora.com/Do-prices-in-Europe-include-taxes

russdill 4y ago
Because they vary based on the municipality you live in.
tzs 4y ago
> Note: In Europe, the advertised price always includes the related taxes How does that work for prices in broadcast ads that reach multiple countries? VAT can vary from country to country so which country's VAT rate do you use in the ad?
- troad 4y ago
  There really isn't a lot of multi-country advertising in Europe. You're going to run into bigger problems than showing correct VAT rates - language being probably the most obvious one, but also different regulatory requirements for things like mandatory warnings, watershed rules, etc. In practice, advertising is always going to need to be adapted for every European market.
zeroonetwothree 4y ago
Government taxes are at least fairly consistent so it doesn’t matter for comparison shopping.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

93po 4y ago

Income tax also feels like a hidden fee since it's automatically deducted from your paycheck and is out of sight/out of mind for most people, despite it taking anywhere from a quarter to a third of your income. If people had to pay a monthly tax bill every month, I think they'd think very differently about their level of taxes. Note: I'm not actually advocating that, I think it sounds awful. But the hidden-fee experience feels very similar

tonightstoast 4y ago
I don’t know where you’ve worked but you can choose to not let your employer deduct anything. Normally it’s done automatically to ensure that you don’t get it with an unaffordable tax bill at the end of the year.
- 93po 4y ago
  In the US, employers are legally required to withhold. You can only ask them not to if: "the employee must have had no tax liability for the previous year and must expect to have no tax liability for the current year."

jmyeet 4y ago

Airfares are another big culprit for this. When oil was at a high price, airlines started charging "fuel surcharges". There's no such thing. That service simply costs more. I think they also did it to (further) erode awards redemptions because they still had to pay any additional fees. Uber famously did this with a safety fee when there was a string of negative news reports. What did this fee do? Literally nothing. They just pocketed it. Airbnb is an obvious one of course. Whenever I see anything like lack of transparent pricing and the necessary for such legislation, I have to chuckle at the expense of anarchists and libertarians because a strong government is necessary for any market to function. How are there any anarchists or libertarians at all?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

ocdtrekkie 4y ago

I love how this January, my ISP added one new fee and increased the price of an existing fee and the rental cost of my modem (which was bought by a previous ISP to begin with, it's pure profit until it breaks), and those three random fee increases magically total to increasing my bill by exactly ten dollars. While it was framed as three little fee changes, it's obvious there was a directive to up the bill by $10 a month, and then they just found lines to bump without touching the actual main one.

gwbas1c 4y ago

> other than taxes and fees imposed by a government IMO, taxes need to be part of the advertised price. Part of the reason we tolerate hidden fees in the US is because we're used to paying more than the sticker price for something because it doesn't include taxes (and tip.) If I lived in CA, I'd contact my reps and ask them to redo the bill to also include taxes and tips. It's not right to eliminate some kinds of hidden fees while still keeping government hidden fees.

jmugan 4y ago
I agree but worry that could derail this good legislation.

granshaw 4y ago

Can we also mandate any included taxes in the listed price, like elsewhere in the world? kthxbai

6gvONxR4sf7o 4y ago

> The legislation — the first bill of its type across the state — would prohibit advertising a price for a good or service that does not include all required charges other than taxes and fees imposed by a government. I wish it included the taxes and government fees also. The whole hidden fee culture seems to be enabled by us all being so accustomed to paying extra at checkout.

el_don_almighty 4y ago

Does this law include taxes like Social Security? Many people think they only pay 7.5% and the company pays the other 7.5% but this is wrong. The employee pays the whole 15%, they just don't see it come out of their check. Does that count as a "hidden fee?" What about VAT taxes?

zeroonetwothree 4y ago
You could argue the same about corporate income taxes but everyone here seems to love those

yadaeno 4y ago

The hotel industry has the most egregious fees in my opinion. You pay online, then you show up and they demand $90 for cleaning and other fees. I hope this goes through and moves us towards a sane direction.

checkyoursudo 4y ago

Guess all of us outside of CA are going make up the difference via higher hidden fees. :( I started writing this comment as a joke, but I no longer am sure that it is.

MR4D 4y ago

I can’t wait to see the unintended effects of this bill on healthcare. If we’re lucky, this bill might actually accomplish something!

Vixel 4y ago

I wish this bill was "ban ALL FEES" period. Classifying something as "junk" or "hidden" sounds like a nightmare that plenty of businesses and industries will find way around. Get back to bottom line pricing, taxes included, and watch competition rise while prices fall

cuteboy19 4y ago

It is unfortunate that there is no group that sits down and harmonizes all these laws across state lines. Why should it be that the way to do business is slightly different in CA vs NC? If this remains the situation, then the only companies which thrive will be the ones with an army of lawyers. There is not much hope for smaller businesses in such an environment

hoonaneaRich 4y ago

The only purpose of a “resort fee” is to deceive. Customers are more likely to book if a lower rate is advertised. Taxing authorities lose revenue because hotel rooms are taxed at a much higher rate than “fees”. Travel agents are shorted their full commissions because they are based on the room rate. The resort fee scam has spread to other areas. Where do you think Ticketmaster and airlines got the idea to deconstruct their pricing schemes? How about restaurants now adding fees in the fine print for everything from mandated health care to “area marketing plans” to higher cfedit card charges…instead of simply adjusting prices on the menu? This consumer fraud has been ongoing since at least 1994 in Hawaii and 2010 elsewhere it escaped its “Maui Quarantine”. It is long past time that honesty in pricing be recognized and an enforced as a basic consumer protection.

logicalmonster 4y ago

> Sellers often hide these additional, mandatory charges by using small type, vague descriptions or misleading wording such as “service fees,” by bundling them with legitimate charges like taxes, or revealing them clearly only after the consumer has invested time in the transaction. The tiny libertarian inside of me recoils at the description of taxes as legitimate, but that's a point for a different type of discussion. I'd just like to call attention to the concept of hidden fees being called out. And remember, that's fees, as in plural. Government officials are pointing out that multiple end of sale charges can be confusing and misleading dark patterns? Ok, great, lets analyze that logic through for consistency. Governments are engaging in the same bullshit. Look at how many Government Fees and taxes are on my basic phone bill. > City District Sales Tax - Telecom > City Sales Tax - Telecom > County Public Safety Communications Surcharge > State Sales Tax - Telecom > State Public Safety Communications Surcharge There might be at least a few more, but I can't quite confirm if they're actually taxes or not. You might say that paying a tax is a necessary part of a functional society. Again, I'm not here to debate that. But why the bullshit with having an entire pile of random taxes given in a piecemeal fashion? If it's misleading and complicated for consumers to understand payments with 500 different surcharges and fees, certainly consumers also aren't understanding their true tax burden if they're nickle and dimed with tons of extra taxes that are only visible at the end of the process and not spelled out up front. If it's good for consumers to know about all of their commercial fees, shouldn't the same logic apply to taxation? Shouldn't voters be made to understand their true tax burden in the simplest fashion possible?