7 ms·

Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every d

by krona 4y ago

Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered... Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right. - George Orwell

gotoeleven 4y ago
[flagged]
- KyeRussell 4y ago
  As much as this is an obvious joke, it’s lazy and dangerous. Quite easily distinguishable from what this post is about. Conflating rewriting history with treating historical fictional works as living documents are two separate things, that deserve separate space for debate.
  - Sporktacular 4y ago
    Spot on. But it's a degree of nuance the anti-woke mob don't want to understand. It's good to see posts that try stamp out the culture war flames.
  - nonethewiser 4y ago
    Dangerous? Go outside
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    Dangerous in what way? Honest question
    - Sporktacular 4y ago
      So you think editing out offensive wording in fiction is equivalent to changing who the protagonists were in a historical event? That is both silly and a hyperbolic attempt to shutdown a fair discussion that reasonable people might form differing conclusions from. Censorship isn't the only tool against free speech.
      - s1artibartfast 4y ago
        That still doesn't explain how the hyperbole is dangerous.
        Sporktacular 4y ago
        Shutting down a reasonable conversation you don't agree with is tantamount to censorship. If you don't consider that dangerous, well again, reasonable people will disagree.
- Sporktacular 4y ago
  That's really what you think the wokeness warriors want - historical revisionism?
  - slothtrop 4y ago
    Well nothing else is sacred to zealots, so it's not unimaginable.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    Well yeah. It already is taken as fact in many circles that the primary purpose and intent of the American legal system and government was the subjugation of minorities. While I think there is some value and truth in critical analysis of race, gender, or governance that challenge prevailing assumptions, many people have lost the plot and positive context entirely. They mistake the exceptions for the rule and the flaws for the thing itself.
    - monkpit 4y ago
      > It already is taken as fact in many circles You can really say this about anything. Not that I am disagreeing with you, but it’s a dubious way to frame anything you wish to state.
      - s1artibartfast 4y ago
        Sure, I agree it isn't very specific, but I wasn't trying to make a general claim, just provide a hopefully recognizable example of revisionist history. I think it would be different if I was claiming that most people believe this narrative, or something like that. I could have pointed to some specific academics who feel this way, but I'm not sure that is any more convincing. Basically any example can be ignored with a no true scottsman argument if someone is obstinate instead of curious.
    - Sporktacular 4y ago
      Can you please provide a (credible or somehow representative) source claiming that the primary purpose and intent of the American legal system and government was the subjugation of minorities.
- itwillcomeout 4y ago
  Pretty sure Zuckerberg is working on that videogame as we speak for his metaverse.
- pyinstallwoes 4y ago
  Well now that you've written it, it shall be hallucinated, at the very least.
  - mensetmanusman 4y ago
    This is true, now more than ever I wonder how humans will fight back against the ever watchful eye of AI. The mops are wet with moon drapes.
    - pyinstallwoes 4y ago
      Probably by not fighting and just loving.
mc32 4y ago
People (ok, old school liberals -like the Clintons- as well as libertarians and other freedom loving classes) used to make fun of sects and other religious minorities with uhh, different sensibilities who were too prudish or uptight for their alternative censored versions of popular works --well, the joke's on us! The speed at which history is being colonized to retroactively establish a new reality is pretty astounding. Elements who usually are loosely in the same camp are rushing over each other and throwing each other under the bus in order to establish moral superiority over the new barbarians. To be clear, I'm not espousing the use of crass language; I however, would like to leave it to people to have the ability to make that choice themselves to be civilizer or vulgar rather than impose it upon them as some virtue. IIRC, our current commander-in-chief called someone whose question displeased him "fats". Of course Johnson is the all-time winner, but what was another era.
- thenewbarbaras 4y ago
  This reminds me of Kavafy's poem. Waiting for the Barbarians https://youtu.be/Ajy55VtGbzY https://youtu.be/Ajy55VtGbzY
- h2odragon 4y ago
  > I'm not espousing the use of crass language Fucking A, bro.
- wyager 4y ago
  > old school liberals -like the Clintons- Is this a joke? Or are actual "old school liberals" so "old school" now that liberals by the ten-year-old definition count as "old school"? "Old school liberals" are people like Friedman and Mises, not the Clintons.
  - mc32 4y ago
    It should have read “including”. One can’t rely on previous icons as examples as they are being passed at best as irrelevant and at worst as being echoes of a feudal past. In any case, it’s a very surprising quick turn of events. Even Orwell the prototypical anti-fascist is ensnared. Perhaps denouncement awaits.
consumer451 4y ago
This Dahl situation seems ridiculous and deserving of derision. I would also like to bring your attention to the Florida school book ban which applies not just to new editions of one author, but to an entire state's education system. > Among the titles that have been removed and banned in the course of the vetting in her school district are Toni Morrison’s ‘The Bluest Eye,’ ‘The Kite Runner’ by Khaled Hosseini, ‘The Stranger’ by Albert Camus, ‘Revolting Rhymes’ by Roald Dahl, and a skateboarding magazine called ‘Thrasher’. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/florida-book-ban-desantis-schools-b2281345.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/florida-bo...
- pessimizer 4y ago
  Justifying censorship with other censorship is a spiral of doom.
  - consumer451 4y ago
    I'm sorry, maybe I don't understand your reply. Did you read my comment as some sort of justification of either the Dahl estate's rewriting of Dahl's work or the state sponsored censorship in happening in Florida?
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      I read it as, "we're complaining about Democrats when we should really be complaining about Republicans." I apologize if that was unfair. edit: even though you've made a careful distinction between "rewriting" and censorship here that a lot of people who support censorship make. I'm probably projecting this upon you, but it goes along with the diabolical "It's not censorship unless the government does it, and when the government does it, it's fighting hate and misinformation."
      - consumer451 4y ago
        The burning of books is referenced in my username. I think both things are bad. One of the joys of being politically indie is that I can feel disgust at actions originating from across the political spectrum.
idiocrat 4y ago
> Every record has been destroyed or falsified ... Selling the only remaining original unedited Roald Dahl's book for 3 kilograms of gold. Really a bargain for this unique collectibles item. Anonymity and discretion is guaranteed.
- SaltyGoodness 4y ago
  The word gold is antisemitic. Why would you reference such a hateful trope? 'Gold' also refers to a color, and so is doubly offensive. /s - but they really did make changes like that to Dahls' work. It's so disturbing.
ThrowawayR2 4y ago
The point might be better served by looking to the real world example of sanitizing literature that gave the English language the word "bowdlerize": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Family_Shakespeare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Family_Shakespeare
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
teolandon 4y ago
HN loves bringing up Orwell in contexts that are not comparable. This is bad, but not in an Orwellian way.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  How is rewriting old texts to make them align with modern politics not Orwellian?
  - teolandon 4y ago
    This is not the government rewriting old texts and destroying the originals to promote the image of always having the same ethics. This is an estate trying to sell the books they have the rights for.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]

by krona 4y ago

gotoeleven 4y ago

[flagged]

KyeRussell 4y ago
As much as this is an obvious joke, it’s lazy and dangerous. Quite easily distinguishable from what this post is about. Conflating rewriting history with treating historical fictional works as living documents are two separate things, that deserve separate space for debate.
- Sporktacular 4y ago
  Spot on. But it's a degree of nuance the anti-woke mob don't want to understand. It's good to see posts that try stamp out the culture war flames.
- nonethewiser 4y ago
  Dangerous? Go outside
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  Dangerous in what way? Honest question
  - Sporktacular 4y ago
    So you think editing out offensive wording in fiction is equivalent to changing who the protagonists were in a historical event? That is both silly and a hyperbolic attempt to shutdown a fair discussion that reasonable people might form differing conclusions from. Censorship isn't the only tool against free speech.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      That still doesn't explain how the hyperbole is dangerous.
      - Sporktacular 4y ago
        Shutting down a reasonable conversation you don't agree with is tantamount to censorship. If you don't consider that dangerous, well again, reasonable people will disagree.
Sporktacular 4y ago
That's really what you think the wokeness warriors want - historical revisionism?
- slothtrop 4y ago
  Well nothing else is sacred to zealots, so it's not unimaginable.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  Well yeah. It already is taken as fact in many circles that the primary purpose and intent of the American legal system and government was the subjugation of minorities. While I think there is some value and truth in critical analysis of race, gender, or governance that challenge prevailing assumptions, many people have lost the plot and positive context entirely. They mistake the exceptions for the rule and the flaws for the thing itself.
  - monkpit 4y ago
    > It already is taken as fact in many circles You can really say this about anything. Not that I am disagreeing with you, but it’s a dubious way to frame anything you wish to state.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      Sure, I agree it isn't very specific, but I wasn't trying to make a general claim, just provide a hopefully recognizable example of revisionist history. I think it would be different if I was claiming that most people believe this narrative, or something like that. I could have pointed to some specific academics who feel this way, but I'm not sure that is any more convincing. Basically any example can be ignored with a no true scottsman argument if someone is obstinate instead of curious.
  - Sporktacular 4y ago
    Can you please provide a (credible or somehow representative) source claiming that the primary purpose and intent of the American legal system and government was the subjugation of minorities.
itwillcomeout 4y ago
Pretty sure Zuckerberg is working on that videogame as we speak for his metaverse.
pyinstallwoes 4y ago
Well now that you've written it, it shall be hallucinated, at the very least.
- mensetmanusman 4y ago
  This is true, now more than ever I wonder how humans will fight back against the ever watchful eye of AI. The mops are wet with moon drapes.
  - pyinstallwoes 4y ago
    Probably by not fighting and just loving.

mc32 4y ago

People (ok, old school liberals -like the Clintons- as well as libertarians and other freedom loving classes) used to make fun of sects and other religious minorities with uhh, different sensibilities who were too prudish or uptight for their alternative censored versions of popular works --well, the joke's on us! The speed at which history is being colonized to retroactively establish a new reality is pretty astounding. Elements who usually are loosely in the same camp are rushing over each other and throwing each other under the bus in order to establish moral superiority over the new barbarians. To be clear, I'm not espousing the use of crass language; I however, would like to leave it to people to have the ability to make that choice themselves to be civilizer or vulgar rather than impose it upon them as some virtue. IIRC, our current commander-in-chief called someone whose question displeased him "fats". Of course Johnson is the all-time winner, but what was another era.

thenewbarbaras 4y ago
This reminds me of Kavafy's poem. Waiting for the Barbarians https://youtu.be/Ajy55VtGbzY https://youtu.be/Ajy55VtGbzY
h2odragon 4y ago
> I'm not espousing the use of crass language Fucking A, bro.
wyager 4y ago
> old school liberals -like the Clintons- Is this a joke? Or are actual "old school liberals" so "old school" now that liberals by the ten-year-old definition count as "old school"? "Old school liberals" are people like Friedman and Mises, not the Clintons.
- mc32 4y ago
  It should have read “including”. One can’t rely on previous icons as examples as they are being passed at best as irrelevant and at worst as being echoes of a feudal past. In any case, it’s a very surprising quick turn of events. Even Orwell the prototypical anti-fascist is ensnared. Perhaps denouncement awaits.

consumer451 4y ago

This Dahl situation seems ridiculous and deserving of derision. I would also like to bring your attention to the Florida school book ban which applies not just to new editions of one author, but to an entire state's education system. > Among the titles that have been removed and banned in the course of the vetting in her school district are Toni Morrison’s ‘The Bluest Eye,’ ‘The Kite Runner’ by Khaled Hosseini, ‘The Stranger’ by Albert Camus, ‘Revolting Rhymes’ by Roald Dahl, and a skateboarding magazine called ‘Thrasher’. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/florida-book-ban-desantis-schools-b2281345.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/florida-bo...

pessimizer 4y ago
Justifying censorship with other censorship is a spiral of doom.
- consumer451 4y ago
  I'm sorry, maybe I don't understand your reply. Did you read my comment as some sort of justification of either the Dahl estate's rewriting of Dahl's work or the state sponsored censorship in happening in Florida?
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    I read it as, "we're complaining about Democrats when we should really be complaining about Republicans." I apologize if that was unfair. edit: even though you've made a careful distinction between "rewriting" and censorship here that a lot of people who support censorship make. I'm probably projecting this upon you, but it goes along with the diabolical "It's not censorship unless the government does it, and when the government does it, it's fighting hate and misinformation."
    - consumer451 4y ago
      The burning of books is referenced in my username. I think both things are bad. One of the joys of being politically indie is that I can feel disgust at actions originating from across the political spectrum.

idiocrat 4y ago

> Every record has been destroyed or falsified ... Selling the only remaining original unedited Roald Dahl's book for 3 kilograms of gold. Really a bargain for this unique collectibles item. Anonymity and discretion is guaranteed.

SaltyGoodness 4y ago
The word gold is antisemitic. Why would you reference such a hateful trope? 'Gold' also refers to a color, and so is doubly offensive. /s - but they really did make changes like that to Dahls' work. It's so disturbing.

ThrowawayR2 4y ago

The point might be better served by looking to the real world example of sanitizing literature that gave the English language the word "bowdlerize": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Family_Shakespeare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Family_Shakespeare

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

teolandon 4y ago

HN loves bringing up Orwell in contexts that are not comparable. This is bad, but not in an Orwellian way.

josephcsible 4y ago
How is rewriting old texts to make them align with modern politics not Orwellian?
- teolandon 4y ago
  This is not the government rewriting old texts and destroying the originals to promote the image of always having the same ethics. This is an estate trying to sell the books they have the rights for.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]