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Cashless society in Switzerland? People to vote on keeping cash forever

205 points by starkd 4y ago

pacifika 4y ago
How does the voting work? Is it a good reference for other nations?
- wereHamster 4y ago
  Some info here: https://www.ch.ch/en/votes-and-elections https://www.ch.ch/en/votes-and-elections
- foruhar 4y ago
  I'm not sure exactly what you are asking but it may be helpful to know that Switzerland is a direct democracy. https://www.eda.admin.ch/aboutswitzerland/en/home/politik-geschichte/politisches-system.html#:~:text=Switzerland%20is%20a%20direct%20democracy,decisions%20are%20made%20by%20consensus https://www.eda.admin.ch/aboutswitzerland/en/home/politik-ge....
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- jerojero 4y ago
  It would require some modifications I guess. Switzerland has a relatively long history of direct democracy and citizen participation in politics, and for this reason people do not fall prey so easily to misinformation like they would in other countries where referendums are held that do not have people prepared for it (see Colombia, the UK, Chile, or even California). The key to direct democracy is citizen engagement and in Switzerland the government actually does a lot to support informing citizens about what they're about to vote. I think for other nations it might be better to look into citizens assemblies as a next step in empowering democracies because citizens assemblies are very good at achieving public policy that aligns with the general population but in an environment where it's much easier to control for misinformation. In Ireland these were used in conjunction with direct democracy (referendums) as part of the process, in that, the assembly explored the question that would be asked in the referendum and gave a sort of "official opinion" on it. This was then widely distributed as part of the information campaign that the government did for the referendum. Polling suggests that a large part of the population that voted on the referendum was aware of the resolution made by the assembly, which is a good sign. And yeah, ultimately, the results of the referendum aligned with the assembly. The issue was abortion and it was voted in favor, consider that Ireland is a very religious country so it was quite a contentious issue.
  - lasftew 4y ago
    The Swiss are not smarter than others. We just have a system that keeps the misinformation by all parties in a relative equilibrium.
    - jerojero 4y ago
      I didn't say smarter, I don't think they're smarter. They're better informed and have a more responsible culture regarding politics which takes the form of informed participation. In fact, I believe this is precisely because people are given a much more direct way of influencing decisions in the country which starts at the very local and scales up. What you say, that you have a system that keeps misinformation in check, yeah, that's part of it. It's not about individuals being better or worse, groups of people everywhere in the world I would say are pretty much just as smart. It's about the system, but you can't just take a system and drop it on a society that's not used to that; it needs to be phased in and adapted. I guess, in fewer words, it's not that the swiss (individual person) are smarter but socially (swiss group of people) are. Because there's a culture and systems in place that allow for better group-making decision. It's the difference between having a disorganized group of people just shouting and a group where people take turns to speak; the individuals in the first are not less smart than the second but the second has a system that allows for better decisions to be made.
      - lasftew 4y ago
        I generally agree with you. I believe it is all about the culture and by extension the systems which have evolved over time to govern the political process. I took objection however with "people do not fall prey so easily to misinformation like they would in other countries [...]". People as individuals are as prone to believe anything they read or hear as they are in any reasonably developed and educated country. The key difference to me seems to be that the political system offers fewer incentives for political actors to act destructively. Proportional representation and multi-member districts mean nobody can assume they will win a majority alone, and a strong pull towards consensus (multi-party governments) means no party will ever govern alone. Everywhere, including in Switzerland, any political party will use information for a certain benefit or advantage, and "misinformation" is just the derogative term for that process, usually from the vantage point of the political opponent. However, there is less to gain from it when you need other parties to find an acceptable compromise and bring forward your objectives.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  I think Switzerland has one of the best governments in the world. His model basically after the United States but implemented on a smaller scale where it works even better. It has a weaker federal system and most of the funding is concentrated in the states/cantons. There's also a long tradition of putting questions to the people in terms of a general vote. I think they voted on whether cow herders could remove the horns or not.
  - zhdc1 4y ago
    It's really not all that similar. The emphasis is very much on the local government, more so than really anywhere else in the world (that I know of). There are some states where local governments matter. There are more where power is concentrated at the level of the county or state government. A (bad) way to think of it would be something along the lines of a New England townhall system on steroids, with several layers of federal/confederated associations above the local township (geminde). Again, not a great comparison, but it's something that at least a portion of the US-centric users on here would know a little about.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      Im not too interested in debating the topic as I am not Swiss. However, this was explained to me by those who are, and there is a lot of literature on the subject. https://blog.nationalmuseum.ch/en/2021/01/switzerland-and-the-usa-sister-republics/ https://blog.nationalmuseum.ch/en/2021/01/switzerland-and-th... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Federal_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Federal_Constitution
seydor 4y ago
Does this mean that the digital equivalent of cash in the form of an appropriate cryptocurrency is officially also mandated by law?
- bluepoint 4y ago
  I don’t think so, unless it is the only official currency.
- rom-antics 4y ago
  No, the vote is about banknotes and coins (as the headline states)
  - seydor 4y ago
    What if i print private keys in qr codes and call them banknotes
    - rom-antics 4y ago
      The word "banknotes" has a specific legal meaning. You can print anything and call it anything you want, but that doesn't mean anyone will take you seriously or you'll get legal recognition. You're venturing into sovcit territory.
    - Turing_Machine 4y ago
      In the United States, at least, they wouldn't be "legal tender", which means that every entity (person, government, whatever) is required to accept them in payment for a debt. I believe most other countries have similar rules for their official currencies, likely including Switzerland. Note that the "debt" part is important. You can refuse to take cash for a new transaction, but not one where the other party already owes you money. I believe there have even been court cases that held that the type of restaurant that requires you to pay before getting your food can refuse to take cash, while the type of restaurant that lets you pay after you've eaten cannot (because that makes it a debt you owe). Don't quote me on that, though.
- deleted 4y ago
silvestrov 4y ago
Forever is a short time in politics. Nothing stops another voting in 10 years time to swing the other way.
- inductive_magic 4y ago
  Constitutions have a tendency to be sticky though.
  - _0ffh 4y ago
    Constitutions are factually much less sticky than formally, as ultimately words require interpretation. When the law can't be rewritten, it will just be reinterpreted. Here's a reasonably well known monograph about the topic: John Hasnas, "The Myth of the Rule of Law", Wisconsin Law Review 199 (1995) https://medusa.teodesian.net/docs/liberty/MythFinalDraft.pdf https://medusa.teodesian.net/docs/liberty/MythFinalDraft.pdf
  - arlort 4y ago
    That's only true when they are significantly more difficult to amend than the ordinary legislative procedure
  - sofixa 4y ago
    That's not necessarily a good thing. Constitutions need to be able to evolve with the times - otherwise many countries would still be disenfranchising vast swathes of their population (women - and funnily, in some Swiss cantons, women couldn't vote until the 1990s!), or a bunch of other problems. It's absolutely a problem when they become synonymous with a deity's work and thus untouchable. One of the worse examples of this is the US, where with the added benefit of the mess that is common law (precedents and reinterpretations being a thing) it's just a messy vague situation. France was able to add abortion protections to their constitution, meanwhile the US relied on an interpretation of a vague statute to constitutionally protect them, and then a change of opinion in the courts changed that.
  - AdrianB1 4y ago
    As someone else already wrote, Constitutions tend to be reinterpreted - see all the controversies in US on several Amendments and the lack of meaning of "not infringe" these days.
rom-antics 4y ago
How much lifting is the word "forever" doing in that headline? I thought all laws are forever, until they're changed or repealed, yet reporting doesn't usually include that word. In the future if someone wanted to try to change this, they could just hold another vote, no? How is this different?
- bigyikes 4y ago
  If they omitted the word “forever”, it might seem like they are overturning an existing law or voting against an imminent threat to remove cash.
frank_bb 4y ago
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phreeza 4y ago
This website seems like really low quality blogspam. Higher quality source: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-may-face-a-future-referendum-to-enshrine-status-of-cash/48297030 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-may-face-a-future-referen...
- Laaas 4y ago
  Euronews was recently bought apparently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euronews#Alpac_Capital https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euronews#Alpac_Capital
  - beebeepka 4y ago
    They've been thrash for as long as I can remember. I visit their site every couple of years and content doesn't match their name at all. "Euro" "news"
    - elkos 4y ago
      In the 90s we had EuronewsTV broadcasted over the air for free in Greece. It was fairly ok-ish. I had the chance to interact with some reporters of Euronews in 2017 and it was fairly ok but keep in mind that it was about a news story amongst hundreds within a day.
      - beebeepka 4y ago
        Sure. Could you do me a favour and check how many news about Greece they've had over the last few months? Just the site.
matsemann 4y ago
While I like several aspects of cash, like little tracking/privacy violations, hard for someone to just cut you off from your money etc., I don't think I've used cash in 5+ years (except vacations). Absolutely every vendor in my country accepts cards or some kind of app payment and have for years, even girl scouts selling cookies. And cash is expensive. It's easy to scoff about the 1-2 % fees on cards (but in my country "BankAxept" has a flat fee of ~0.024 USD per transaction, so even cheaper). But having a business dealing with a lot of cash is also crazy expensive. You have to have extra security, pay someone to come and get it or yourself go to the bank and deposit. Then also buy rolls of change. I remember my dad spending a lot of hours a week dealing with this. So yeah, I'm all for keeping it, but I also kinda want to be able to not subside other's use of it. So a fee for using cash or something perhaps.
- Laaas 4y ago
  I imagine we'll have digital cash eventually, but the only sound non-blockchain solution I know of requires local quantum computation: https://eprint.iacr.org/2020/107 https://eprint.iacr.org/2020/107
  - tzs 4y ago
    What do you mean by “sound”? Why doesn’t David Chaum’s eCash from 1982 [1] qualify? That’s an on-line system. In 1990 he, Fiat, and Nairobi proposed an off-line system [2]. [1] http://www.hit.bme.hu/~buttyan/courses/BMEVIHIM219/2009/Chaum.BlindSigForPayment.1982.PDF http://www.hit.bme.hu/~buttyan/courses/BMEVIHIM219/2009/Chau... [2] http://blog.koehntopp.de/uploads/chaum_fiat_naor_ecash.pdf http://blog.koehntopp.de/uploads/chaum_fiat_naor_ecash.pdf
    - Laaas 4y ago
      The latter works fine if you're OK with completely trusting the banks. Local quantum computation gives you provably sound, decentralised, unprintable digital cash. Nice paper though, I wonder if you can make it quantum resistant.
- nic547 4y ago
languagehacker 4y ago
Switzerland has a very specific reason for preserving cash, and it's called money laundering
- FpUser 4y ago
  Alternatively the specific reason is to protect people from ever more hairy government paws crawling all over and inside their lives.
- lasftew 4y ago
  Swiss here. This is true. Buy an expensive watch and want to pay with credit card? We'll need to verify name and address, apologies Sir! Have a bag of cash? No questions asked, have a nice day!
anonym29 4y ago
I don't see this as a valorization of physical currency so much as a hedge against the threat of complete loss of financial privacy & autonomy that comes built-in with state-mandated CBDC's.
Kukumber 4y ago
cashless society is a requirement to ascend to the next civilization
- Karsteski 4y ago
  If the next civilization is my government having the ability to take my money away from me, I want to part of it
  - Kukumber 4y ago
    you'll be busy counting your cash on this burning planet while china will be a multiplanetary society
    - Karsteski 4y ago
      Yes society is definitely going to develop in such a simplistic manner. Also, do I really want to be a member of a society like China in its current form? The answer is no. I have no interest in being a slave to my government, even more so atleast. If those in power have absolute control of your currency, have fun opposing them without large numbers of deaths.
      - Kukumber 4y ago
        Why haven't we replaced the dying ISS? why China did? Why can't we offer universal health care? why China did? There is a lot of debatable things China did, but when it comes to its citizens, they are properly taken care off to move forward From a poor emerging country to a developed one in record time, you have to be a strong collective and have the support of your own people to achieve this feat Our model of society stagnated, we must reinvent ourselves to move forward, otherwise we are headed towards dark times
        knewter 4y ago
        Chinese workers in rural areas make less per day than any one of my laying hens produces in income at the current price of eggs.
dukeofdoom 4y ago
Government debanked the lockdown protestors in Canada. Freezing their bank accounts. So people started giving them cash so they have something for food. But imagine if you couldn't buy bread because government decided you shouldn't oppose their lockdown policy. Without cash, you are a slave to the state, and can't have food unless they say you can.
- mistrial9 4y ago
  most people who have never experienced real hunger do not understand this
- kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago
  This, and I cannot agree enough. Generally speaking, governments don't always have your best interests in mind.
  - sofixa 4y ago
    > Generally speaking, governments don't always have your best interests in mind Generally speaking, this a massive stretch for a democratic country such as Switzerland. What is the government there but a representation of it's citizens?
    - AdrianB1 4y ago
      > What is the government ... Extreme naivety or trolling?
    - iforgotpassword 4y ago
      A government's highest priority is keeping itself in power at all cost.
    - xienze 4y ago
      > What is the government there but a representation of it's citizens? Situations sometimes come up that the people don’t exactly get a chance to vote on. For instance, no one in the US in 2018 ran on a “if there’s a dangerous respiratory virus circulating in the future I vow to lock the country down to the best of my ability and mandate vaccines that have been fast-tracked” platform, and such a candidate likely wouldn’t win. But here we are.
egberts1 4y ago
Folks in Mountainous, rugged environment knows the value of physical fiat and its essential exchange mechanism.
- refuse 4y ago
  Yep. Power or internet goes out where I live fairly often and you'd have to drive at least an hour to use anything but cash. Another commenter already mentioned natural disasters, which happen with surprising frequency (I've been through quite a few myself). Cash fills in society's all-too-common edge cases.
  - Scoundreller 4y ago
    I kinda thought those environments would be less dependent on emergency cash, because they'll have a week's worth of food, backup energy/power sources (BBQs, propane tanks, jerry cans of gas, woodstoves, etc.). It's people in the cities that get boned when the grid crashes.
    - egberts1 4y ago
      Especially if them city folks put all their livelihood into digital cash.
grahar64 4y ago
Having just come from the cyclone ravaged Gisborne region in New Zealand, where internet and communications have been down now for 5 days. The first thing we did was count all the cash we had, because it is the only way we could buy food and fuel. Cash works when there is no power or communication.
- Clubber 4y ago
  Also cash isn't easily trackable. This is nice if you are uneasy with all the tracking and surveillance going on today.
  - wongarsu 4y ago
    It's also really hard to stop people from using their cash. Of course governments see this as a weakness, but everyone concerned about government overreach should appreciate how your cards and bank accounts can be frozen, but your cash is yours (as long as you have physical control over it).
    - DoctorOW 4y ago
      Cops just straight up take people's cash in some parts of the world
      - Clubber 4y ago
        They do that in the US. It's called civil asset forfeiture, and the federal government supports it and takes a cut. No due process needed. https://jalopnik.com/heres-another-reminder-that-the-police-can-just-steal-y-1847606139 https://jalopnik.com/heres-another-reminder-that-the-police-...
  - shortcake27 4y ago
    This is always brought up as an argument against cashless. I don’t get it. I’m quite passionate about tracking, collection, and use of personal data. But I really couldn’t care less about my day to day purchases. My bank knows that I buy a coffee every morning and lunch from a local vendor, and some groceries or dinner in the evening. My bank won’t use this for any kind of targeted advertising and I trust them to keep it secure. This data seems so unimportant compared to the frustration of cash. The second I step foot in a cash economy I start having issues with large bills (do you have a smaller note etc), losing change, having to keep on visiting ATMs. It’s extremely irritating once you’ve gotten used to cashless. What is everyone buying on a daily basis with cash that is so secret the banks and governments must not know?
wonderwonder 4y ago
In certain cases Cash takes on almost a freedom of speech importance. Government can just switch off the digital finances of any movement they don't like. Cash makes that harder.
- bogomipz 4y ago
  As a topical counterpoint, governments can also just switch off the existing currency in favor of a new currency and create a cash scarcity crisis when theres not enough of the new currency in circulation. This is exactly the situation in Nigeria right now. See: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/15/angry-protests-erupt-across-nigeria-against-scarcity-of-cash https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/15/angry-protests... Another recent example of a hard currency crisis is what's been happening in Lebanon, where the government simply switched off full access: https://www.ft.com/content/a710fa12-e7fe-4aab-8e4f-962f01addeea https://www.ft.com/content/a710fa12-e7fe-4aab-8e4f-962f01add...
  - galleywest200 4y ago
    I mean they could, but would a country as wealthy as Switzerland just break all business relations like that?
    - 8ytecoder 4y ago
      I mean would they do that for digital then?
      - dijit 4y ago
        all vs some. I can disable your bank account rendering you unable to be personally solvent. But in order to do so with the cash you have I would have to basically disable everyones account.
    - bogomipz 4y ago
      The parent I was responding to was not referring specifically to Switzerland, in fact they just said "Government" which is about as general as you can be. Further Nigeria is also wealthy, even if the concentration of wealth is in the hands of very few. Nigeria is the largest economy in Africa and 31st in the World by GDP.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nigeria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nigeria
erehweb 4y ago
Per https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-may-face-a-future-referendum-to-enshrine-status-of-cash/48297030 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-may-face-a-future-referen... Swiss people have $11.8K in cash on average - an extraordinarily high amount. [edited to insert "Swiss"]
- inductive_magic 4y ago
  Fwiw, consumer prices in Switzerland don’t really compare to those in the rest of Europe or the US. Would be interesting to see a normalized bar chart.
- raverbashing 4y ago
  Swiss people are also good at saving money, regardless if it's cash or investments
  - sschueller 4y ago
    Gets difficult when you are paying negative interest rates but at least that is over now. [1] [1] https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/switzerland-exits-negative-interest-rate-era/47920304 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/switzerland-exits-nega...
- 542458 4y ago
  I’m very very skeptical of that number… If all the US currency was evenly divided amongst the US’s population, each person would hold about $6600. But almost nobody actually holds that much cash in the US - that cash is mostly held by criminal organizations, individuals that can’t engage with the traditional banking system, and foreign governments. The Swiss Franc has similar utility to the USD in that regard, so I suspect that number is not representative of nearly all households.
  - Scoundreller 4y ago
    Yeah, there's a ton of US$ cash outside of USA. Estimates have been between 40 and 72% https://www.bullionstar.com/blogs/jp-koning/how-much-u-s-currency-is-held-overseas/ https://www.bullionstar.com/blogs/jp-koning/how-much-u-s-cur... Swiss Francs are far from a reserve currency, beyond the poor recognition of the notes outside of Switzerland and nearby countries, so I'm doubting too many are held outside of Switzerland. Euros or Dollars would be far better.
IYasha 4y ago
Cash you can save, cash you can protect, cash you can move, cash you can share. Digital goolag-coins you can not. Save in gold. Some mafia-related millionaire. :)
mring33621 4y ago
Who could have predicted, Switzerland, a bastion of financial privacy has voted to keep cash as legal tender?
nicolinox 4y ago
Revolut has already of few million users in Switzerland. It looks like swiss citizens and foreign immigrants being taken for a ride in fees by the swiss banks are now fed up and have alternatives...
- sschueller 4y ago
  No, Revolut has ~250,000 customers in Switzerland. Additionally people have had some serious issues with how Revolut operates including their complete lack of support system. There are several stories of people loosing large sums. People used Revolut because it made thing easy and quick but now there are Swiss alternatives available like Neon[1] or Zak[2] with the backing of a Swiss bank license providing deposit guarantees. [1] https://www.neon-free.ch/en/ https://www.neon-free.ch/en/ [2] https://www.cler.ch/de/info/zak https://www.cler.ch/de/info/zak
g0xA52A2A 4y ago
I'll offer a random anecdote. I lived in Switzerland for a couple of years in the early 2010's, so before contactless payment had become so prevalent as it is now. Most of the transactions I made and saw others made was via cash rather than chip and PIN (the norm in most Europe at the time). One of the memories that stands out from my time there is whilst in the queue getting some groceries in Denner (a lower end supermarket), the person in front of me paid with a 1,000 CHF note and no-one batted an eye! I didn't even know the denominations went that high, which is more a reflection of my ignorance of the place I was living really. I mentioned this to my work colleges the next day and was told it wasn't that unusual, especially with older generations. To be clear chip and PIN was widely available at this time but most people used cash. Even with a decade gone and a pandemic I still wouldn't be surprised if I were to go back to Switzerland tomorrow and see people paying for groceries with huge documentations TLDR: The Swiss like cash.
- xiphias2 4y ago
  As a person helping my mother from far ahead I understand why. The hard part is not using the card. It's setting it up: set up the bank application on mobile phone, setting up second factor, looking at notifications when they disappear after a few seconds (older people have slower reflexes). All the flat UI means that my mother can't tell me the difference between a button and a text. There's no button to see notifications, she has to use swiping, which is again much harder for older people, as all the timings were optimized for young people with young people reflexes. Without all this how does she know how much money she has? (with cash she can just count it).
  - sportslife 4y ago
    Notifications that disappear after a few seconds are a scourge that I've seen my surprisingly tech-literate mother struggle with too. I wonder if there is any work around accessibility and ui-notification duration or history.
    - xiphias2 4y ago
      Work should be about just testing everything with old people now that companies practically require them to use smartphones.
mr90210 4y ago
I sometimes think that something similar might happen with ICE vehicles in the EU.
t0bia_s 4y ago
Cashless society is utopia, not practical actualy. Imagine homeless people. You wouldn't be able to give them money. Imagine trade in place without data connection. Imagine misery in case of battery failure. Imagine chaos in case of bank system failure. Of course total surveillance of state is main concern. Unfortunately WEF propose and EU make slow steps to limit cash as possible. Ie by advantages and bonuses in case of paying by card. Banks limiting cash withdraw amount... https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2022/12/07/anti-money-laundering-council-agrees-its-position-on-a-strengthened-rulebook/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2022... Interesting documentary about one digital currency and digital ID, State of control (2022): https://player.vimeo.com/video/769876604 https://player.vimeo.com/video/769876604 Czech senate recently refused to make cash as constitutional righ. https://www.epochtimes.cz/2023/02/15/navrh-zahrnout-do-ustavy-pravo-platit-v-hotovosti-neprosel-senatori-jej-podaji-znovu/ https://www.epochtimes.cz/2023/02/15/navrh-zahrnout-do-ustav...
- jdhn 4y ago
  >Imagine homeless people. You wouldn't be able to give them money. I've seen homeless people with QR codes and chip readers.
  - kevviiinn 4y ago
    What a beautiful dystopia we live in
- CatWChainsaw 4y ago
  In the modern day, digital continuity of identity is -almost- more important than physical, and being a "cyborg" (constantly in contact with your phone/portal to Internet) is increasingly critical. And we live in an increasingly climate-hostile world. Low tech is underappreciated by many, not just the usual crowd here.
  - t0bia_s 4y ago
    Sure, cash is eco friendly!
occamrazor 4y ago
To add some context: the group that promoted this initiative is a fringe ultraconservative one. Among other things, in 2020 they were denying the existence of Covid and in 2021 they did an anti 5G campaign.
- 0xDEF 4y ago
  Far-right extremism is surprisingly common in the German-speaking world if you look beyond Western Germany and Berlin. Eastern Germany (excluding Berlin) is one big racist hellscape where refugee homes get firebombed and Putin is worshipped as the second coming of Jesus. Switzerland and Austria are not that bad yet but judging by social media trends they both have a significant far-right problem.
- unconed 4y ago
  Hmm, this is a fun game. "To add some context, the group that promoted this initiative is a fringe ultraprogressive one. Among other things, in 2020 they were first calling border closures racist, then denying the harmful effects of lockdown, then promoting riots and arson in the streets. In 2021 they did an antiwhite campaign and in 2022 they are openly collecting money for war."
  - occamrazor 4y ago
    I don’t think I understand what you mean. There are certainly fringe leftist groups in the world and in Switzerland, but this [1] is not one of them. [1] fbschweiz.ch
    - unconed 4y ago
      The point is that adding "context" to an initiative by associating it with fringe politics with negative connotations does not illuminate much at all... and in particular, after the last 3 years, people should be very careful to throw stones.
drexlspivey 4y ago
In 2017 Russia launched the biggest cyberattack ever against Ukraine. It affected a big part of the county’s digital infrastructure including banking. People were unable to transact electronically and unable to withdraw cash from the ATM machines. If a major conflict against 2 advanced nations ever happen I expect scenarios like this to play out. Cashless is great in times of prosperity but when shit hits the fan you need to have a backup plan.
IYasha 4y ago
Time for Stallman to step in and give a speech in Europe!
fakedang 4y ago
Switzerland spitting out all the right moves of late. Disclaimer: resident in CH

205 points by starkd 4y ago

pacifika 4y ago

How does the voting work? Is it a good reference for other nations?

wereHamster 4y ago
Some info here: https://www.ch.ch/en/votes-and-elections https://www.ch.ch/en/votes-and-elections
foruhar 4y ago
I'm not sure exactly what you are asking but it may be helpful to know that Switzerland is a direct democracy. https://www.eda.admin.ch/aboutswitzerland/en/home/politik-geschichte/politisches-system.html#:~:text=Switzerland%20is%20a%20direct%20democracy,decisions%20are%20made%20by%20consensus https://www.eda.admin.ch/aboutswitzerland/en/home/politik-ge....
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
jerojero 4y ago
It would require some modifications I guess. Switzerland has a relatively long history of direct democracy and citizen participation in politics, and for this reason people do not fall prey so easily to misinformation like they would in other countries where referendums are held that do not have people prepared for it (see Colombia, the UK, Chile, or even California). The key to direct democracy is citizen engagement and in Switzerland the government actually does a lot to support informing citizens about what they're about to vote. I think for other nations it might be better to look into citizens assemblies as a next step in empowering democracies because citizens assemblies are very good at achieving public policy that aligns with the general population but in an environment where it's much easier to control for misinformation. In Ireland these were used in conjunction with direct democracy (referendums) as part of the process, in that, the assembly explored the question that would be asked in the referendum and gave a sort of "official opinion" on it. This was then widely distributed as part of the information campaign that the government did for the referendum. Polling suggests that a large part of the population that voted on the referendum was aware of the resolution made by the assembly, which is a good sign. And yeah, ultimately, the results of the referendum aligned with the assembly. The issue was abortion and it was voted in favor, consider that Ireland is a very religious country so it was quite a contentious issue.
- lasftew 4y ago
  The Swiss are not smarter than others. We just have a system that keeps the misinformation by all parties in a relative equilibrium.
  - jerojero 4y ago
    I didn't say smarter, I don't think they're smarter. They're better informed and have a more responsible culture regarding politics which takes the form of informed participation. In fact, I believe this is precisely because people are given a much more direct way of influencing decisions in the country which starts at the very local and scales up. What you say, that you have a system that keeps misinformation in check, yeah, that's part of it. It's not about individuals being better or worse, groups of people everywhere in the world I would say are pretty much just as smart. It's about the system, but you can't just take a system and drop it on a society that's not used to that; it needs to be phased in and adapted. I guess, in fewer words, it's not that the swiss (individual person) are smarter but socially (swiss group of people) are. Because there's a culture and systems in place that allow for better group-making decision. It's the difference between having a disorganized group of people just shouting and a group where people take turns to speak; the individuals in the first are not less smart than the second but the second has a system that allows for better decisions to be made.
    - lasftew 4y ago
      I generally agree with you. I believe it is all about the culture and by extension the systems which have evolved over time to govern the political process. I took objection however with "people do not fall prey so easily to misinformation like they would in other countries [...]". People as individuals are as prone to believe anything they read or hear as they are in any reasonably developed and educated country. The key difference to me seems to be that the political system offers fewer incentives for political actors to act destructively. Proportional representation and multi-member districts mean nobody can assume they will win a majority alone, and a strong pull towards consensus (multi-party governments) means no party will ever govern alone. Everywhere, including in Switzerland, any political party will use information for a certain benefit or advantage, and "misinformation" is just the derogative term for that process, usually from the vantage point of the political opponent. However, there is less to gain from it when you need other parties to find an acceptable compromise and bring forward your objectives.
s1artibartfast 4y ago
I think Switzerland has one of the best governments in the world. His model basically after the United States but implemented on a smaller scale where it works even better. It has a weaker federal system and most of the funding is concentrated in the states/cantons. There's also a long tradition of putting questions to the people in terms of a general vote. I think they voted on whether cow herders could remove the horns or not.
- zhdc1 4y ago
  It's really not all that similar. The emphasis is very much on the local government, more so than really anywhere else in the world (that I know of). There are some states where local governments matter. There are more where power is concentrated at the level of the county or state government. A (bad) way to think of it would be something along the lines of a New England townhall system on steroids, with several layers of federal/confederated associations above the local township (geminde). Again, not a great comparison, but it's something that at least a portion of the US-centric users on here would know a little about.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    Im not too interested in debating the topic as I am not Swiss. However, this was explained to me by those who are, and there is a lot of literature on the subject. https://blog.nationalmuseum.ch/en/2021/01/switzerland-and-the-usa-sister-republics/ https://blog.nationalmuseum.ch/en/2021/01/switzerland-and-th... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Federal_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Federal_Constitution

seydor 4y ago

Does this mean that the digital equivalent of cash in the form of an appropriate cryptocurrency is officially also mandated by law?

bluepoint 4y ago
I don’t think so, unless it is the only official currency.
rom-antics 4y ago
No, the vote is about banknotes and coins (as the headline states)
- seydor 4y ago
  What if i print private keys in qr codes and call them banknotes
  - rom-antics 4y ago
    The word "banknotes" has a specific legal meaning. You can print anything and call it anything you want, but that doesn't mean anyone will take you seriously or you'll get legal recognition. You're venturing into sovcit territory.
  - Turing_Machine 4y ago
    In the United States, at least, they wouldn't be "legal tender", which means that every entity (person, government, whatever) is required to accept them in payment for a debt. I believe most other countries have similar rules for their official currencies, likely including Switzerland. Note that the "debt" part is important. You can refuse to take cash for a new transaction, but not one where the other party already owes you money. I believe there have even been court cases that held that the type of restaurant that requires you to pay before getting your food can refuse to take cash, while the type of restaurant that lets you pay after you've eaten cannot (because that makes it a debt you owe). Don't quote me on that, though.
deleted 4y ago

silvestrov 4y ago

Forever is a short time in politics. Nothing stops another voting in 10 years time to swing the other way.

inductive_magic 4y ago
Constitutions have a tendency to be sticky though.
- _0ffh 4y ago
  Constitutions are factually much less sticky than formally, as ultimately words require interpretation. When the law can't be rewritten, it will just be reinterpreted. Here's a reasonably well known monograph about the topic: John Hasnas, "The Myth of the Rule of Law", Wisconsin Law Review 199 (1995) https://medusa.teodesian.net/docs/liberty/MythFinalDraft.pdf https://medusa.teodesian.net/docs/liberty/MythFinalDraft.pdf
- arlort 4y ago
  That's only true when they are significantly more difficult to amend than the ordinary legislative procedure
- sofixa 4y ago
  That's not necessarily a good thing. Constitutions need to be able to evolve with the times - otherwise many countries would still be disenfranchising vast swathes of their population (women - and funnily, in some Swiss cantons, women couldn't vote until the 1990s!), or a bunch of other problems. It's absolutely a problem when they become synonymous with a deity's work and thus untouchable. One of the worse examples of this is the US, where with the added benefit of the mess that is common law (precedents and reinterpretations being a thing) it's just a messy vague situation. France was able to add abortion protections to their constitution, meanwhile the US relied on an interpretation of a vague statute to constitutionally protect them, and then a change of opinion in the courts changed that.
- AdrianB1 4y ago
  As someone else already wrote, Constitutions tend to be reinterpreted - see all the controversies in US on several Amendments and the lack of meaning of "not infringe" these days.

rom-antics 4y ago

How much lifting is the word "forever" doing in that headline? I thought all laws are forever, until they're changed or repealed, yet reporting doesn't usually include that word. In the future if someone wanted to try to change this, they could just hold another vote, no? How is this different?

bigyikes 4y ago
If they omitted the word “forever”, it might seem like they are overturning an existing law or voting against an imminent threat to remove cash.

frank_bb 4y ago

[dead]

phreeza 4y ago

This website seems like really low quality blogspam. Higher quality source: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-may-face-a-future-referendum-to-enshrine-status-of-cash/48297030 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-may-face-a-future-referen...

Laaas 4y ago
Euronews was recently bought apparently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euronews#Alpac_Capital https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euronews#Alpac_Capital
- beebeepka 4y ago
  They've been thrash for as long as I can remember. I visit their site every couple of years and content doesn't match their name at all. "Euro" "news"
  - elkos 4y ago
    In the 90s we had EuronewsTV broadcasted over the air for free in Greece. It was fairly ok-ish. I had the chance to interact with some reporters of Euronews in 2017 and it was fairly ok but keep in mind that it was about a news story amongst hundreds within a day.
    - beebeepka 4y ago
      Sure. Could you do me a favour and check how many news about Greece they've had over the last few months? Just the site.

matsemann 4y ago

While I like several aspects of cash, like little tracking/privacy violations, hard for someone to just cut you off from your money etc., I don't think I've used cash in 5+ years (except vacations). Absolutely every vendor in my country accepts cards or some kind of app payment and have for years, even girl scouts selling cookies. And cash is expensive. It's easy to scoff about the 1-2 % fees on cards (but in my country "BankAxept" has a flat fee of ~0.024 USD per transaction, so even cheaper). But having a business dealing with a lot of cash is also crazy expensive. You have to have extra security, pay someone to come and get it or yourself go to the bank and deposit. Then also buy rolls of change. I remember my dad spending a lot of hours a week dealing with this. So yeah, I'm all for keeping it, but I also kinda want to be able to not subside other's use of it. So a fee for using cash or something perhaps.

Laaas 4y ago
I imagine we'll have digital cash eventually, but the only sound non-blockchain solution I know of requires local quantum computation: https://eprint.iacr.org/2020/107 https://eprint.iacr.org/2020/107
- tzs 4y ago
  What do you mean by “sound”? Why doesn’t David Chaum’s eCash from 1982 [1] qualify? That’s an on-line system. In 1990 he, Fiat, and Nairobi proposed an off-line system [2]. [1] http://www.hit.bme.hu/~buttyan/courses/BMEVIHIM219/2009/Chaum.BlindSigForPayment.1982.PDF http://www.hit.bme.hu/~buttyan/courses/BMEVIHIM219/2009/Chau... [2] http://blog.koehntopp.de/uploads/chaum_fiat_naor_ecash.pdf http://blog.koehntopp.de/uploads/chaum_fiat_naor_ecash.pdf
  - Laaas 4y ago
    The latter works fine if you're OK with completely trusting the banks. Local quantum computation gives you provably sound, decentralised, unprintable digital cash. Nice paper though, I wonder if you can make it quantum resistant.
nic547 4y ago

languagehacker 4y ago

Switzerland has a very specific reason for preserving cash, and it's called money laundering

FpUser 4y ago
Alternatively the specific reason is to protect people from ever more hairy government paws crawling all over and inside their lives.
lasftew 4y ago
Swiss here. This is true. Buy an expensive watch and want to pay with credit card? We'll need to verify name and address, apologies Sir! Have a bag of cash? No questions asked, have a nice day!

anonym29 4y ago

I don't see this as a valorization of physical currency so much as a hedge against the threat of complete loss of financial privacy & autonomy that comes built-in with state-mandated CBDC's.

Kukumber 4y ago

cashless society is a requirement to ascend to the next civilization

Karsteski 4y ago
If the next civilization is my government having the ability to take my money away from me, I want to part of it
- Kukumber 4y ago
  you'll be busy counting your cash on this burning planet while china will be a multiplanetary society
  - Karsteski 4y ago
    Yes society is definitely going to develop in such a simplistic manner. Also, do I really want to be a member of a society like China in its current form? The answer is no. I have no interest in being a slave to my government, even more so atleast. If those in power have absolute control of your currency, have fun opposing them without large numbers of deaths.
    - Kukumber 4y ago
      Why haven't we replaced the dying ISS? why China did? Why can't we offer universal health care? why China did? There is a lot of debatable things China did, but when it comes to its citizens, they are properly taken care off to move forward From a poor emerging country to a developed one in record time, you have to be a strong collective and have the support of your own people to achieve this feat Our model of society stagnated, we must reinvent ourselves to move forward, otherwise we are headed towards dark times
      - knewter 4y ago
        Chinese workers in rural areas make less per day than any one of my laying hens produces in income at the current price of eggs.

dukeofdoom 4y ago

Government debanked the lockdown protestors in Canada. Freezing their bank accounts. So people started giving them cash so they have something for food. But imagine if you couldn't buy bread because government decided you shouldn't oppose their lockdown policy. Without cash, you are a slave to the state, and can't have food unless they say you can.

mistrial9 4y ago
most people who have never experienced real hunger do not understand this
kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago
This, and I cannot agree enough. Generally speaking, governments don't always have your best interests in mind.
- sofixa 4y ago
  > Generally speaking, governments don't always have your best interests in mind Generally speaking, this a massive stretch for a democratic country such as Switzerland. What is the government there but a representation of it's citizens?
  - AdrianB1 4y ago
    > What is the government ... Extreme naivety or trolling?
  - iforgotpassword 4y ago
    A government's highest priority is keeping itself in power at all cost.
  - xienze 4y ago
    > What is the government there but a representation of it's citizens? Situations sometimes come up that the people don’t exactly get a chance to vote on. For instance, no one in the US in 2018 ran on a “if there’s a dangerous respiratory virus circulating in the future I vow to lock the country down to the best of my ability and mandate vaccines that have been fast-tracked” platform, and such a candidate likely wouldn’t win. But here we are.

egberts1 4y ago

Folks in Mountainous, rugged environment knows the value of physical fiat and its essential exchange mechanism.

refuse 4y ago
Yep. Power or internet goes out where I live fairly often and you'd have to drive at least an hour to use anything but cash. Another commenter already mentioned natural disasters, which happen with surprising frequency (I've been through quite a few myself). Cash fills in society's all-too-common edge cases.
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  I kinda thought those environments would be less dependent on emergency cash, because they'll have a week's worth of food, backup energy/power sources (BBQs, propane tanks, jerry cans of gas, woodstoves, etc.). It's people in the cities that get boned when the grid crashes.
  - egberts1 4y ago
    Especially if them city folks put all their livelihood into digital cash.

grahar64 4y ago

Having just come from the cyclone ravaged Gisborne region in New Zealand, where internet and communications have been down now for 5 days. The first thing we did was count all the cash we had, because it is the only way we could buy food and fuel. Cash works when there is no power or communication.

Clubber 4y ago
Also cash isn't easily trackable. This is nice if you are uneasy with all the tracking and surveillance going on today.
- wongarsu 4y ago
  It's also really hard to stop people from using their cash. Of course governments see this as a weakness, but everyone concerned about government overreach should appreciate how your cards and bank accounts can be frozen, but your cash is yours (as long as you have physical control over it).
  - DoctorOW 4y ago
    Cops just straight up take people's cash in some parts of the world
    - Clubber 4y ago
      They do that in the US. It's called civil asset forfeiture, and the federal government supports it and takes a cut. No due process needed. https://jalopnik.com/heres-another-reminder-that-the-police-can-just-steal-y-1847606139 https://jalopnik.com/heres-another-reminder-that-the-police-...
- shortcake27 4y ago
  This is always brought up as an argument against cashless. I don’t get it. I’m quite passionate about tracking, collection, and use of personal data. But I really couldn’t care less about my day to day purchases. My bank knows that I buy a coffee every morning and lunch from a local vendor, and some groceries or dinner in the evening. My bank won’t use this for any kind of targeted advertising and I trust them to keep it secure. This data seems so unimportant compared to the frustration of cash. The second I step foot in a cash economy I start having issues with large bills (do you have a smaller note etc), losing change, having to keep on visiting ATMs. It’s extremely irritating once you’ve gotten used to cashless. What is everyone buying on a daily basis with cash that is so secret the banks and governments must not know?

wonderwonder 4y ago

In certain cases Cash takes on almost a freedom of speech importance. Government can just switch off the digital finances of any movement they don't like. Cash makes that harder.

bogomipz 4y ago
As a topical counterpoint, governments can also just switch off the existing currency in favor of a new currency and create a cash scarcity crisis when theres not enough of the new currency in circulation. This is exactly the situation in Nigeria right now. See: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/15/angry-protests-erupt-across-nigeria-against-scarcity-of-cash https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/15/angry-protests... Another recent example of a hard currency crisis is what's been happening in Lebanon, where the government simply switched off full access: https://www.ft.com/content/a710fa12-e7fe-4aab-8e4f-962f01addeea https://www.ft.com/content/a710fa12-e7fe-4aab-8e4f-962f01add...
- galleywest200 4y ago
  I mean they could, but would a country as wealthy as Switzerland just break all business relations like that?
  - 8ytecoder 4y ago
    I mean would they do that for digital then?
    - dijit 4y ago
      all vs some. I can disable your bank account rendering you unable to be personally solvent. But in order to do so with the cash you have I would have to basically disable everyones account.
  - bogomipz 4y ago
    The parent I was responding to was not referring specifically to Switzerland, in fact they just said "Government" which is about as general as you can be. Further Nigeria is also wealthy, even if the concentration of wealth is in the hands of very few. Nigeria is the largest economy in Africa and 31st in the World by GDP.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nigeria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nigeria

erehweb 4y ago

Per https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-may-face-a-future-referendum-to-enshrine-status-of-cash/48297030 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-may-face-a-future-referen... Swiss people have $11.8K in cash on average - an extraordinarily high amount. [edited to insert "Swiss"]

inductive_magic 4y ago
Fwiw, consumer prices in Switzerland don’t really compare to those in the rest of Europe or the US. Would be interesting to see a normalized bar chart.
raverbashing 4y ago
Swiss people are also good at saving money, regardless if it's cash or investments
- sschueller 4y ago
  Gets difficult when you are paying negative interest rates but at least that is over now. [1] [1] https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/switzerland-exits-negative-interest-rate-era/47920304 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/switzerland-exits-nega...
542458 4y ago
I’m very very skeptical of that number… If all the US currency was evenly divided amongst the US’s population, each person would hold about $6600. But almost nobody actually holds that much cash in the US - that cash is mostly held by criminal organizations, individuals that can’t engage with the traditional banking system, and foreign governments. The Swiss Franc has similar utility to the USD in that regard, so I suspect that number is not representative of nearly all households.
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  Yeah, there's a ton of US$ cash outside of USA. Estimates have been between 40 and 72% https://www.bullionstar.com/blogs/jp-koning/how-much-u-s-currency-is-held-overseas/ https://www.bullionstar.com/blogs/jp-koning/how-much-u-s-cur... Swiss Francs are far from a reserve currency, beyond the poor recognition of the notes outside of Switzerland and nearby countries, so I'm doubting too many are held outside of Switzerland. Euros or Dollars would be far better.

IYasha 4y ago

Cash you can save, cash you can protect, cash you can move, cash you can share. Digital goolag-coins you can not. Save in gold. Some mafia-related millionaire. :)

mring33621 4y ago

Who could have predicted, Switzerland, a bastion of financial privacy has voted to keep cash as legal tender?

nicolinox 4y ago

Revolut has already of few million users in Switzerland. It looks like swiss citizens and foreign immigrants being taken for a ride in fees by the swiss banks are now fed up and have alternatives...

sschueller 4y ago
No, Revolut has ~250,000 customers in Switzerland. Additionally people have had some serious issues with how Revolut operates including their complete lack of support system. There are several stories of people loosing large sums. People used Revolut because it made thing easy and quick but now there are Swiss alternatives available like Neon[1] or Zak[2] with the backing of a Swiss bank license providing deposit guarantees. [1] https://www.neon-free.ch/en/ https://www.neon-free.ch/en/ [2] https://www.cler.ch/de/info/zak https://www.cler.ch/de/info/zak

g0xA52A2A 4y ago

I'll offer a random anecdote. I lived in Switzerland for a couple of years in the early 2010's, so before contactless payment had become so prevalent as it is now. Most of the transactions I made and saw others made was via cash rather than chip and PIN (the norm in most Europe at the time). One of the memories that stands out from my time there is whilst in the queue getting some groceries in Denner (a lower end supermarket), the person in front of me paid with a 1,000 CHF note and no-one batted an eye! I didn't even know the denominations went that high, which is more a reflection of my ignorance of the place I was living really. I mentioned this to my work colleges the next day and was told it wasn't that unusual, especially with older generations. To be clear chip and PIN was widely available at this time but most people used cash. Even with a decade gone and a pandemic I still wouldn't be surprised if I were to go back to Switzerland tomorrow and see people paying for groceries with huge documentations TLDR: The Swiss like cash.

xiphias2 4y ago
As a person helping my mother from far ahead I understand why. The hard part is not using the card. It's setting it up: set up the bank application on mobile phone, setting up second factor, looking at notifications when they disappear after a few seconds (older people have slower reflexes). All the flat UI means that my mother can't tell me the difference between a button and a text. There's no button to see notifications, she has to use swiping, which is again much harder for older people, as all the timings were optimized for young people with young people reflexes. Without all this how does she know how much money she has? (with cash she can just count it).
- sportslife 4y ago
  Notifications that disappear after a few seconds are a scourge that I've seen my surprisingly tech-literate mother struggle with too. I wonder if there is any work around accessibility and ui-notification duration or history.
  - xiphias2 4y ago
    Work should be about just testing everything with old people now that companies practically require them to use smartphones.

mr90210 4y ago

I sometimes think that something similar might happen with ICE vehicles in the EU.

t0bia_s 4y ago

Cashless society is utopia, not practical actualy. Imagine homeless people. You wouldn't be able to give them money. Imagine trade in place without data connection. Imagine misery in case of battery failure. Imagine chaos in case of bank system failure. Of course total surveillance of state is main concern. Unfortunately WEF propose and EU make slow steps to limit cash as possible. Ie by advantages and bonuses in case of paying by card. Banks limiting cash withdraw amount... https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2022/12/07/anti-money-laundering-council-agrees-its-position-on-a-strengthened-rulebook/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2022... Interesting documentary about one digital currency and digital ID, State of control (2022): https://player.vimeo.com/video/769876604 https://player.vimeo.com/video/769876604 Czech senate recently refused to make cash as constitutional righ. https://www.epochtimes.cz/2023/02/15/navrh-zahrnout-do-ustavy-pravo-platit-v-hotovosti-neprosel-senatori-jej-podaji-znovu/ https://www.epochtimes.cz/2023/02/15/navrh-zahrnout-do-ustav...

jdhn 4y ago
>Imagine homeless people. You wouldn't be able to give them money. I've seen homeless people with QR codes and chip readers.
- kevviiinn 4y ago
  What a beautiful dystopia we live in
CatWChainsaw 4y ago
In the modern day, digital continuity of identity is -almost- more important than physical, and being a "cyborg" (constantly in contact with your phone/portal to Internet) is increasingly critical. And we live in an increasingly climate-hostile world. Low tech is underappreciated by many, not just the usual crowd here.
- t0bia_s 4y ago
  Sure, cash is eco friendly!

occamrazor 4y ago

To add some context: the group that promoted this initiative is a fringe ultraconservative one. Among other things, in 2020 they were denying the existence of Covid and in 2021 they did an anti 5G campaign.

0xDEF 4y ago
Far-right extremism is surprisingly common in the German-speaking world if you look beyond Western Germany and Berlin. Eastern Germany (excluding Berlin) is one big racist hellscape where refugee homes get firebombed and Putin is worshipped as the second coming of Jesus. Switzerland and Austria are not that bad yet but judging by social media trends they both have a significant far-right problem.
unconed 4y ago
Hmm, this is a fun game. "To add some context, the group that promoted this initiative is a fringe ultraprogressive one. Among other things, in 2020 they were first calling border closures racist, then denying the harmful effects of lockdown, then promoting riots and arson in the streets. In 2021 they did an antiwhite campaign and in 2022 they are openly collecting money for war."
- occamrazor 4y ago
  I don’t think I understand what you mean. There are certainly fringe leftist groups in the world and in Switzerland, but this [1] is not one of them. [1] fbschweiz.ch
  - unconed 4y ago
    The point is that adding "context" to an initiative by associating it with fringe politics with negative connotations does not illuminate much at all... and in particular, after the last 3 years, people should be very careful to throw stones.

drexlspivey 4y ago

In 2017 Russia launched the biggest cyberattack ever against Ukraine. It affected a big part of the county’s digital infrastructure including banking. People were unable to transact electronically and unable to withdraw cash from the ATM machines. If a major conflict against 2 advanced nations ever happen I expect scenarios like this to play out. Cashless is great in times of prosperity but when shit hits the fan you need to have a backup plan.

IYasha 4y ago

Time for Stallman to step in and give a speech in Europe!

fakedang 4y ago

Switzerland spitting out all the right moves of late. Disclaimer: resident in CH