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Human urine sensing and deep learning-assisted cancer screening
- bakoo 4y agoOf course this happens when I finally have come to appreciate the finger prostate check.
- Tade0 4y agoThat's actually a colon cancer check - the prostate is checked along with it, but you could well do that via an abdominal USG.
- simiones 4y agoAt best, I can imagine this being a rectum cancer check, not a colon cancer check - the colon is around 1.6-1.7m long. Even the rectum is longer than a typical finger (typically ~12cm long according to Wikipedia).
- gjulianm 4y agoNot a doctor, but my SO is one. AFAIK the finger is used to check for prostate inflammation/abnormalities. Colon cancer checks are done either via analysis of hidden blood in feces or colonoscopy.
- highclass 4y agoFinger check will usually only detect a huge prostate or rectal cancer(not other portions of the colon), or a rectal cancer just next to the anal canal. Colonoscopy(can detect polyps BEFORE they become cancer, but more costly and hard for patient) is the gold standard for detecting colon cancer, along with fecal occult blood which is cheap and easier to do but will detect only more advanced cancers. For prostate, the early detection and screening is usually using done using a PSA blood test.
- Engineering-MD 4y agoYou can actually detect relatively small prostate cancers, even more so for superficial ones. PSA is not raised in all prostate cancers and cannot be used with prostate examination to rule out prostate cancer.
- Engineering-MD 4y agoShould read: Cannot be used ^without prostate examination
- Engineering-MD 4y agoYou cannot reliably assess for prostate cancer using an ultrasound. PSA blood test in concert with rectal examination of prostate, with MRI of prostate of abnormality detected as the next step.
- unwind 4y agoHere, "label free" seems to mean that the detection is done more or less directly, instead of relying on a consumable extra material (the label) that binds to the thing being searched for, thus marking it. At least that's my understanding after trying to goog my way out of that confusion for a few seconds. See [1] for instance, or [2] but that seems to be focusing on maas spectroscopy. [1]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/biochemistry-genetics-and-molecular-biology/label-free-quantification https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/biochemistry-genetics-a... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Label-free_quantification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Label-free_quantification
- hbossy 4y agoHow long will it take for it to be commercially available?
- once_inc 4y agoConsidering that the test doesn't require violation of the patient's body, I would not expect it to take extremely long.
- stoddur 4y agoEhh .. this is a very preliminary paper in a small journal and medical devices have to undergo rigorous clinical testing before being used in clinical settings. If this will ever be clinically available, it will probably take at least 7 - 10 years.
- giantg2 4y agoEhh... I wouldn't say "rigorous clinic testing". Many devices use/abuse the 510k process.
- psychphysic 4y agoIf it's cost effective probably <5 years, somewhere it'll see screening usage. Wide spread rollout who knows. But FebriDX was relatively new when it was rolled out in parts of the UK. And with the "COVID backlog" if this is cost effective (which includes if it even works), it'll see usage somewhere like substance misuse clinics.
- dbcooper 4y agoThe submission title has taken the liberty of heavily editorializing. This is a submission to a minor journal, of a complicated material, attempting to do something that is clinically very difficult. I'm not trying to dismiss this research, but please don't expect this to ever be clinically available.
- Pinegulf 4y agoIs it a minor journal? They claim impact factor over 12. This is, of course, field related, but it's not nothing.
- JPLeRouzic 4y agoIf I understand well the WP article about 'impact factor', it tells that in 2016 Nature was graded at 38 and Plos One at 3, so 'impact factor' might not mean too much. And the criticism section of the WP article is quite long: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_factor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_factor
- nxpnsv 4y agoThe devil is in the details. Near perfect should be weighted against prevalence….
- radg0wu570ghk 4y agoI agree that the HN title is editorialised, but can we talk about the actual paper? The paper’s title and abstract aren’t unreasonable, why is it that it will never be clinically viable?
- birriel 4y agoPlease consider that the researchers reported a 99% detection rate of those particular cancers in normal people, using a urine test. One would be hard-pressed to come up with a less editorialized title, given HN's constraints.
- tptacek 4y ago
- andyjohnson0 4y agoAs far as I understand, pancreatic cancer has such poor survival rates because it typically doesn't present symptoms until it is too late to treat effectively. Is this test able to detect it early enough for the sufferer to gain more benefit from treatment?
- TrackerFF 4y agoFor whatever reason, I can't access the pdf file - but with pancreatic cancer being as latent and asymptomatic as it is, does this study mention how early it can be detected? It would be absolutely fantastic news if pancreatic cancer can be detected early on - as once the symptoms set in, the prognosis tends to be very poor. It's one of the few diseases I've seen where people have gone from feeling uneasy, to being dead in just a couple of weeks.
- twelve40 4y ago[flagged]
- jagermo 4y agoInteresting. Withings announced a reusable urine analyzer for your toilet bowl at CES, might be cool to see that upgraded with these tests.
- helsinkiandrew 4y ago> Withings announced a reusable urine analyzer for your toilet bowl at CES Doing several tests a day on someone could create a lot of false positives! Perhaps if the sensor detected possible symptoms as well: urinating more frequently in the night, difficulty in starting, weak or interrupted flow, blood in the urine etc.
- f_devd 4y ago> Doing several tests a day on someone could create a lot of false positives! Only if they don't adjust the threshold/filter, properly calibrated you'd expect false positives to be reduced.
- px43 4y agoNeat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyo4hyM3SXo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyo4hyM3SXo Hopefully something like this comes to the US at some point. Subscribed to their newsletter thing here: https://www.withings.com/us/en/u-scan https://www.withings.com/us/en/u-scan > You're in! Thanks for signing up. The number of pee jokes I've experienced in the past 20 minutes of looking into this thing have been delightful :-D
- psychphysic 4y agoArticles paywalled but 100% this will be commercialised if it works at all! Did they say near-perfect accuracy? It's very odd phrase to hear from an academic paper and no mention of sens/spec in abstract.
- nerdponx 4y agoThe abstract mentions both, says that they are both high, but does not provide numbers.
- psychphysic 4y agoHaha, hit my brains content filter. That's a shame (no figures).
- fabian2k 4y agoKinda hard to say anything here with only the abstract. The interesting part for me isn't so much the test method itself, but whether the biomarkers used here are actually good for anything. And as already mentioned in another comment, you need a very high specificity for this kind of screening test to be useful, because "no cancer" is much, much more likely than "cancer" you get a lot of false positives even with relatively high specificity.
- taf2 4y agoSounds great maybe too great this isn’t like another single drop of blood style test that is magic and results in billions in fraud?
- nerdponx 4y agoThis is a highly technical article describing the results of current research in a scientific peer-reviewed academic journal. The particular urine tests being used are, as far as I can tell from the abstract, intended as demonstration or proof of concept, showing that the technology actually works, rather than the final product of the research. It would be very surprising if this were some kind of fraud, and it's also probable that a lot of work still needs to be done in order to make this a useful tool in regular doctor offices.
- passwordoops 4y agoCan't access the full text, but I'm curious to see the experimental design, statistical analysis, and what "near-perfect" means. Too many breathless deep-learning-in-diagnosis headlines turn out to be great big false positive machines or random result generators [0] [0] https://www.statnews.com/2019/10/23/advancing-ai-health-care-trust/ https://www.statnews.com/2019/10/23/advancing-ai-health-care...
- bawana 4y agoIn a parallel universe, we would have leveraged dogs sense of smell and developed a better way to communicate w animals. Then everyone would be able to have a cancer detector in their home without enriching big Pharma
- passwordoops 4y agoWorked in a lab that did R&Din traceability of nefarious substances for a US three-letter agency (I couldn't touch those projects since I wasn't a citizen). And they made it very clear at the time that the best detector in airports for explosives and drugs were, by far, the dogs. No tech that was even in the pipeline at the time (~2010) could come close and glancing at detection limits of current scanners they're not there yet. So yes I would love to see clinical trials of disease-sniffing canines
- Gatsky 4y ago> The dataset was randomly divided into 70% training subset (1420 for prostate and 692 for pancreatic), 15% validation subset (304 and 148), and 15% test subset (304 and 148). The batch training task was performed based on conjugate gradient model for 100 epochs with a learning rate of 1e−5. The RNN deep learning model trained for discrimination of normal and prostate cancer urines showed the best validation performance at 93 epochs (Figs. S12a–c). As shown in Fig. S12b, using the total of 304 human urine test datasets, our RNN binary classification model achieved a 0.9997 AUC from the receiver operating characteristic (ROC) curve and a sensing performance with a sensitivity of 99.4%, a specificity of 100%, and an accuracy of 99.7% (confusion matrix). In the same manner, the trained deep learning for pancreatic cancer urine dataset (Figs. S13a–c) clearly showed superior classification performance with a sensitivity of 98.6% and a specificity of 100% (99.3% accuracy, 0.9892 AUC, 59 epochs). The false discovery rate (FDR) of RNN-assisted binary classification was 0%, 0.7%, and 1.3% for normal, prostate cancer, and pancreatic cancer, respectively. In CNN-assisted three-class classification, the dataset was randomly divided into 70% training subset (1,557) and 30% test subset (666). The batch training task was performed based on conjugate gradient model for 100 epochs with single conventional layer. To find more general diagnostic model for unknown urine sample analysis, multi-class classification method was applied on normal, prostate and pancreatic cancer urine based on CNN deep leaning model. The CNN deep learning model trained for normal and cancer type classification showed excellent performance with <1% loss and 100% accuracy (Fig. S14) after 33 epochs. Our CNN multi-class classification model achieved a sensing performance with a sensitivity of 96.8%, a specificity of 99.6% (prostate) and 97.7% (pancreatic), and an accuracy of 96.8% (confusion matrix) from test dataset. The FDR of CNN-assisted multi-class classification was 4.4%, 1.8%, and 3.6% for normal, prostate cancer, and pancreatic cancer, respectively. Therefore, our 3D-PCNUS platform supported by a fast deep learning bioclassification method successfully distinguishes cancer urine from normal urine with high clinical sensitivity and specificity, suggesting the use of the developed system for on-site cancer diagnostic technology. The developed system is suitable for patient screening with higher pathogenic probability.
- xbar 4y agoShow HN: Time for me to reveal the details of my smart toilet with full-spectrum disease detection. It detects diabetes, pre-diabetes, cancer, covid/flu/cold, smallpox, hypertension, pregnancy, pre-infertility, and heroin addiction. IANAL, but feel free to use this now open-sourced idea for your competitive product.
- px43 4y agoOkay, hear me out. Therenos, but for pee. *Urinos* A device that you pee into every once in a while, and it updates your profile giving you health information based on the tests it ran. It would have plugable modules for each test you want to run, maybe 10 or so slots, and you would pay for subscriptions where a new module would come in the mail every time it needs to be swapped out.
- TotempaaltJ 4y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34817932 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34817932