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Yes actually, a Ukrainian victory will in fact stop the war. Furthermore, an ending to the invasion that results in Ukrainians being ethnically cleansed and Rus

Yes actually, a Ukrainian victory will in fact stop the war. Furthermore, an ending to the invasion that results in Ukrainians being ethnically cleansed and Russia in a position to pursue more invasions is not a better outcome than war (specifically the one that Russia chose and continues to choose to pursue) for quite a few very obvious reasons.

redeeman 4y ago
okay.. but at this point ukraine has recieved more money/material than years worth of russian military budgets. Where is the victory? Also, what is it? is russia 100% incompetent, or is it a fiendish foe? We have had to hear for a year now about how russia is so totally inept that ukranian farmers are victorious against them using nothing both farming tractors, but at the same time the west must send ungodly amounts of money and material their way, and there is no victory. Which one is it? It seems the west is willing to fight to the last ukranian. I just dont see how the west meddling here is gonna make any outcome better. So far nothing indicates I am wrong.
- wkat4242 4y ago
  We haven't sent them that much of actual material and most of that is outdated. A lot has been promised but deliveries outfit scheduled years from now. Money is useful but you can't shoot it, and a lot of Ukrainian capital is lost because of the war. And the most important resource, soldiers, is the one thing we can't send them. And Russia can just conscript as many as they want. And it's Ukraine itself that wants their territories back, including Crimea and Donbass. Making it hard to negotiate. But also understandable, once you start giving in, you're giving Russia an incentive to do it all over again and capture now territory.
  - glogla 4y ago
    > But also understandable, once you start giving in, you're giving Russia an incentive to do it all over again and capture now territory. Not just Russia. If Russia succeeds, China is invading Taiwan next, and the whole global economy is grinding to a halt because like 80 % of world semiconductor industry is there. Saving Ukraine means saving the world.
    - wkat4242 4y ago
      I don't think these issues are linked to be honest. China has a very different strategy. More plotting and long-term scheming, less brute force like Russia. They'll sneak their way in just like they're rapidly expanding their influence in Africa, buying European ports and airports etc. Their tactics are completely different and our response must be as well. Of course long-term planning is the biggest weakness of democracies and the CCP's strength. So I doubt we'll be able to prevent it.
      - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
        > plotting and long-term scheming, less brute force like Russia The way Xi screwed the pooch on Hong Kong, something Beijing was without controversy entitled to, looks more like an impatient dictator than the China of decades prior.
        wkat4242 4y ago
        That's true, Xi is really changing the game. It's a bit surprising because he's set himself up as dictator for life. However his life is finite and I wonder if he wanted some legacy. Similar to the reason why Putin attacked Ukraine.
- imtringued 4y ago
  >It seems the west is willing to fight to the last ukranian. "The west" isn't fighting unless you mean "the west" = Ukraine and nothing else.
  - pasquinelli 4y ago
    they're saying the west is willing to sacrifice every ukrainian to weaken russia.
- _kbh_ 4y ago
  > I just dont see how the west meddling here is gonna make any outcome better. So far nothing indicates I am wrong. The west sending weapons reduces the amount of Ukrainians who are killed by Russians or under Russian occupation. This is unambiguously a good thing.
- trasz3 4y ago
  >Where is the victory? Here: https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-docum.... Russia already lost about half of its entire available land forces.
krageon 4y ago
Ukraine will not win. No amount of dumping money into a country is going to help with this size difference, unless many more countries mobilise their actual military. That won't happen because then it goes from a regional conflict to a large-scale war and more countries might feel like meddling. Then there might be a world war.
- pjc50 4y ago
  They're already, slowly, winning? And I think people have forgotten that the massive size difference didn't help America win in Afghanistan, Iraq, or Vietnam - in the long term. It's going to be a long war, though. It's effectively been running for a decade already.
  - staunton 4y ago
    The problem is that there is no reason to believe the war would stop even if Ukraine managed to push all Russian troops from their territory (with or without Crimea), which is quite unlikely in the first place. In fact, I've yet to hear a single concrete scenario for how that war could end other than with either government collapsing. I don't believe the Russian government will collapse any time soon. Assuming China will attack Taiwan in the meantime, which I think is a lot more likely than not, it seems the world is looking at a lot of war indeed, perhaps even global. Even more senseless killing while issues like the climate and global poverty will lose the little relevance they have now. The future seems really sad.
    - actionfromafar 4y ago
      At least I can't see how the current Russian administration could survive a loss in the Ukraine. On top of that, if the war drags on for years, the sanctions and general production losses are going to bite. Various far regions of Russia (Vladivostok?) may start looking for options. No need for overt rebellion, just tactically ignoring edicts from Moscow may crack the federation. The future seems sad yes, but this situation didn't appear out of nowhere. The dragon seed in Russia (and China) has been growing for decades.
  - 4y ago

redeeman 4y ago

okay.. but at this point ukraine has recieved more money/material than years worth of russian military budgets. Where is the victory? Also, what is it? is russia 100% incompetent, or is it a fiendish foe? We have had to hear for a year now about how russia is so totally inept that ukranian farmers are victorious against them using nothing both farming tractors, but at the same time the west must send ungodly amounts of money and material their way, and there is no victory. Which one is it? It seems the west is willing to fight to the last ukranian. I just dont see how the west meddling here is gonna make any outcome better. So far nothing indicates I am wrong.

wkat4242 4y ago
We haven't sent them that much of actual material and most of that is outdated. A lot has been promised but deliveries outfit scheduled years from now. Money is useful but you can't shoot it, and a lot of Ukrainian capital is lost because of the war. And the most important resource, soldiers, is the one thing we can't send them. And Russia can just conscript as many as they want. And it's Ukraine itself that wants their territories back, including Crimea and Donbass. Making it hard to negotiate. But also understandable, once you start giving in, you're giving Russia an incentive to do it all over again and capture now territory.
- glogla 4y ago
  > But also understandable, once you start giving in, you're giving Russia an incentive to do it all over again and capture now territory. Not just Russia. If Russia succeeds, China is invading Taiwan next, and the whole global economy is grinding to a halt because like 80 % of world semiconductor industry is there. Saving Ukraine means saving the world.
  - wkat4242 4y ago
    I don't think these issues are linked to be honest. China has a very different strategy. More plotting and long-term scheming, less brute force like Russia. They'll sneak their way in just like they're rapidly expanding their influence in Africa, buying European ports and airports etc. Their tactics are completely different and our response must be as well. Of course long-term planning is the biggest weakness of democracies and the CCP's strength. So I doubt we'll be able to prevent it.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > plotting and long-term scheming, less brute force like Russia The way Xi screwed the pooch on Hong Kong, something Beijing was without controversy entitled to, looks more like an impatient dictator than the China of decades prior.
      - wkat4242 4y ago
        That's true, Xi is really changing the game. It's a bit surprising because he's set himself up as dictator for life. However his life is finite and I wonder if he wanted some legacy. Similar to the reason why Putin attacked Ukraine.
imtringued 4y ago
>It seems the west is willing to fight to the last ukranian. "The west" isn't fighting unless you mean "the west" = Ukraine and nothing else.
- pasquinelli 4y ago
  they're saying the west is willing to sacrifice every ukrainian to weaken russia.
_kbh_ 4y ago
> I just dont see how the west meddling here is gonna make any outcome better. So far nothing indicates I am wrong. The west sending weapons reduces the amount of Ukrainians who are killed by Russians or under Russian occupation. This is unambiguously a good thing.
trasz3 4y ago
>Where is the victory? Here: https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-docum.... Russia already lost about half of its entire available land forces.

krageon 4y ago

Ukraine will not win. No amount of dumping money into a country is going to help with this size difference, unless many more countries mobilise their actual military. That won't happen because then it goes from a regional conflict to a large-scale war and more countries might feel like meddling. Then there might be a world war.

pjc50 4y ago
They're already, slowly, winning? And I think people have forgotten that the massive size difference didn't help America win in Afghanistan, Iraq, or Vietnam - in the long term. It's going to be a long war, though. It's effectively been running for a decade already.
- staunton 4y ago
  The problem is that there is no reason to believe the war would stop even if Ukraine managed to push all Russian troops from their territory (with or without Crimea), which is quite unlikely in the first place. In fact, I've yet to hear a single concrete scenario for how that war could end other than with either government collapsing. I don't believe the Russian government will collapse any time soon. Assuming China will attack Taiwan in the meantime, which I think is a lot more likely than not, it seems the world is looking at a lot of war indeed, perhaps even global. Even more senseless killing while issues like the climate and global poverty will lose the little relevance they have now. The future seems really sad.
  - actionfromafar 4y ago
    At least I can't see how the current Russian administration could survive a loss in the Ukraine. On top of that, if the war drags on for years, the sanctions and general production losses are going to bite. Various far regions of Russia (Vladivostok?) may start looking for options. No need for overt rebellion, just tactically ignoring edicts from Moscow may crack the federation. The future seems sad yes, but this situation didn't appear out of nowhere. The dragon seed in Russia (and China) has been growing for decades.
- 4y ago