6 ms·

Deteriorating mitochondria linked to major depression in older adults

110 points by voisin 4y ago

reactspa 4y ago
Is there any way to prove that the arrow of causality is the other way? (i.e., depression causes damage to mitochondria).
- judge2020 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - reactspa 4y ago
    > Shameless chatgpt response LOL. Follow on question for anyone reading this: Is there any evidence that pranayam (yogic breathing exercises) can heal mitochondria?
  - throwaway1851 4y ago
    Chatgpt has such a recognizable tone. I recognized it partway through the the first sentence, but I can’t quite put my finger on what tipped me off.
    - buu700 4y ago
      Off the top of my head, I think it's a few things: * Neutral/textbook-like personality * Lack of first-person pronouns * Lack of any indication of relevant experience/credentials * Lack of any tangents, stories, or any other attempt to relate with the reader * High confidence/authoritativeness/matter-of-factness * Lack of external sources or URLs * Lack of any deep connection to the context of the conversation (such as a tie-in to other aspects of the thread, a reference to some aspect of HN, a reference to current events / pop culture, etc.) * At least in this case, an overly literal interpretation of the question (despite being phrased as such, most humans wouldn't have interpreted reactspa's comment as a yes-or-no question) Overall, it's not bad at answering questions, but the fact that it doesn't attempt to impersonate humans by default can give its output a bit of an uncanny valley feeling.
  - moremetadata 4y ago
    Mitochondria need Manganese Super Oxide Dismutase (MnSOD) to mitigate the harmful effects of free radicals/reactive oxygen species (ROS). Manganese (Mn) and Iron (Fe) share the same gut transporters and other transporters in the body (Divalent Metal Transporter). Fe based ROS generate the most heat in our bodies, which is why we tend not to feel the cold when young, but do when we age. When looking at the risks of too much manganese like Parkinson's, I wonder if, when we are born, are our Mn levels so high our baby/toddler/child like lack of coordination is due to excess amounts of Mn in the body? Main risks of excess Mn is from non ingested routes into the body, like inhalation and injection including perinatal (food) drips in hospitals of all places!!! Mn also does alot more in the body besides becoming MnSOD, so is this study actually witnessing the effects of not enough Manganese in the diet? The Mediterranean diet is high in seafood. Coastal waters have the highest concentration of Manganese which is why I would use mussels for my source of Omega-3 over deep sea fish, because the mussels will have a higher concentration of Manganese than the deep sea fish. Some studies suggest glycine can increase the lifespan/duration of mitochondria, so are these immune system responses like the one mentioned here an indication of an incomplete or unbalanced diet?
    - ghotli 4y ago
      I like these sorts of comments on HN, just when they're substantiated with citations I can verify independently. Otherwise it's not much more useful than noise.
- graphe 4y ago
  This is the similar with vitamin d and COVID. They found out COVID depleted vitamin d.
  - moremetadata 4y ago
    or did the immune system response deplete vitamin d?
    - jvm___ 4y ago
      Or did you have low vitamin D, because your elderly and live in a home and don't get enough sunlight.
      - ralusek 4y ago
        Or is sufficient vitamin D highly correlated with eating a balanced diet and engaging in exercise outside?
      - mrcode007 4y ago
        Most of vitamin D in your body is synthesized from cholesterol and the extra boost you get from sun exposure is by UVB breaking cholesterol into D3. This mechanism occurs naturally with or without sun’s help.
      - moremetadata 4y ago
        My tests and comments in a British national newspaper triggered this to occur. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0960076021001102 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09600... I know a reasonable amount about vitamin D to say the least and I dont agree with all the experts. For example when discussing food cravings related to vitamin D, a PhD expert and studying vit d suggested it was folates due to the solar irradiance exposure. UV destroys folates in the body. I wasnt so sure then and I'm still not so sure this is the sole answer. I think what I told them was correct and I've since seen studies from the 1950's which would back up my assertion. In fact when considering folates create formaldehyde which is cancerous, is the reduction in cancer seen with higher levels of Vit D due to obtaining Vit D from sunshine?
- _9omd 4y ago
  Okay, but then what causes depression? It seems more likely that a range of environmental, lifestyle, and genetic factors cause both depression and mitochondrial damage.
  - alfor 4y ago
    lack of infrared is what cause the damage. mitochondria need infrared to make melatonin(remove free radicals from combustion) Without infrared (living inside) we are in constant inflammation, especially the mitochondria The research is solid, but it’s mostly ignored.
    - Earw0rm 4y ago
      Filament and halogen lamps produce masses of infrared. Narrowband and low-energy lights (fluorescent and LED), not so much.
- im3w1l 4y ago
  I could see it. Depression, leading to unhealthy eating habits leading to mitochondrial stress and deterioration.
partiallypro 4y ago
One might say it's the powerhouse of being well.
itsthecourier 4y ago
If I just could remember what the mytochondria's job is...
- sdenton4 4y ago
  Pretty sure it makes The Force work.
- alfor 4y ago
  Engines of each cell. They burn food and oxygen to make atp. atp the form of energy the cell use for almost everything.
PuppyTailWags 4y ago
I feel there are way more complex systems that science haven't fully sorted out, not even close to it. Gut flora, mitrochondria, immune systems, etc. I hope at the end of the day we haven't harmed a generation of future humans with ultraprocessed food, introduction of forever-chemicals, microplastics, so on and so forth...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- j45 4y ago
  Agreed. My health improved when I switched to clarified butter (ghee) and left the “healthy” oils with their surprisingly lower burning temperature. The temperature was not the reason I switched
  - rogers18445 4y ago
    Vegetable oils require an industrial process of extraction - with high temperatures and hexane, and the output is novel to humans on evolutionary scale. Vegetable oils don't come from actual vegetables, they come from inedible waste which for millions of years has been discarded - seeds etc. Edible oils are those that are not produced from something that was never food.
    - andor 4y ago
      "Vegetable oils require an industrial process of extraction - with high temperatures and hexane" You're talking about refined oils. This method of extraction has a higher yield and is therefore less expensive. It also increases the smoke point of the oil, making it more suitable for high-temperature frying and deep frying. While I don't know what's available to consumers where you live, solvents and other chemical treatment are not required for vegetable oil production. Seeds can be cold extracted. The result is much more expensive though. "the output is novel to humans on evolutionary scale" This is true for all oils and all other highly processed foods. "they come from inedible waste which for millions of years has been discarded - seeds etc" Seeds are not waste. Do you think bread is made from waste? The notion of using "waste" comes from the production of refined oils. The seeds are initially pressed, resulting in oil and meal as the byproduct. The meal still contains some oil which is extracted with solvents. After the solvent treatment, the meal is used as animal food.
unrealp 4y ago
1. Correlation does not necessarily mean cause and effect. 2. 'In older adults' - this could mean only a subset of depression spectrum. It is premature to generalise this to depression in general.
jessaustin 4y ago
Wasn't this the plot of A Wind in the Door?
- teraflop 4y ago
  I believe it was actually the opposite, with a character's physical health being linked to the emotional state of their mitochondria.
  - jessaustin 4y ago
    Ha, I suppose after 40 years one might forget that mitochondria (or was it some creature that lived inside mitochondria?) could be emotional.
NayamAmarshe 4y ago
Powerhouse of the cell for a reason.
alfor 4y ago
Lack of infrared is what cause the damage. mitochondria need infrared to make melatonin(remove free radicals from combustion) Without infrared (living inside) we are in constant inflammation, especially the mitochondria Now, how many hours of time do the elderly go outside? Get close to zero fast. There is a care center close from home. They never go outside. Also true of most of the population. The research is solid, but it’s mostly ignored. Search medcram infrared, this doctor is trying to spread the word, so many lives could be saved. I healed my winter eczema in a short time with a simple infrared lamp after watching a few of his videos.
- MuffinFlavored 4y ago
  what would you say the minimum amount of time needed to be outside is
- nanidin 4y ago
  Citation needed.
- morsch 4y ago
  Maybe just watching the videos healed your condition.
- Earw0rm 4y ago
  Pseudoscience. Please explain: - How does the indoor environment lack infrared vs outdoors, when illuminated by filament or halogen lighting. - The relationship between inflammation (a tissue, organ or whole-organism level process) and mitochondria (a cellular organelle). In what circumstances can a mitochondrion be said to be inflamed?
  - ycombinete 4y ago
    I don't know that it's established. But there does appear to be some interest in the idea from a research perspective [0][1][etc.]. And for some reason physiotherapists have been using it for years for local inflammation, but I've never really bought into the idea myself, nor am I sure about the ramifications of this for systemic inflammation even if true. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31170016/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31170016/ [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6131272/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6131272/
graderjs 4y ago
If this is the case shouldn’t sparsely taken metformin help (like couple times a month or less)? Well tolerated at low dose.
zacharyvoase 4y ago
From the study abstract: "Among depressed individuals, those with high GDF-15 had higher levels of comorbid physical illness, lower executive cognitive functioning, and higher likelihood of having late-onset depression." Is it possible the physical comorbidities could be related to the depression? I'd imagine if my body was breaking down in new ways that made my impending mortality palpable, I'd be pretty depressed too.
oifjsidjf 4y ago
Cancer cells have messed up mitochondria. Transplanting "cancerous" nuclues from one cell to healthy cell did NOT produce cancer. But transplanting cancerous cytoplasm (fluid around the cell nucleus that contains mitochondria) DID cause cancer in the healthy cell. Neurons in neurodegenerative diseases also have messed up mitochondria.
- Enginerrrd 4y ago
  Do you have a source I could read on this?
thebigspacefuck 4y ago
I’ve become interested in this since listening to Chris Palmer(author of “Brain Energy”) on Tim Ferris’s podcast. From my research, studies have found you can supplement with CoQ10 and Folic Acid which may cause a significant improvement of depression compared to placebo. If you have the MTHFR gene variant you may need L-methylfolate (OTC but also prescribed as Deplin). Chris Palmer recommends a ketogenic diet and had some astounding results in patients with schizophrenia where their hallucinations ceased completely. On the other hand, those with bipolar may have worsening symptoms of mania, so it’s definitely something to research first and consult with your doctor if you are interested in pursuing this type of treatment.

110 points by voisin 4y ago

Is there any way to prove that the arrow of causality is the other way? (i.e., depression causes damage to mitochondria).

judge2020 4y ago
[flagged]
- reactspa 4y ago
  > Shameless chatgpt response LOL. Follow on question for anyone reading this: Is there any evidence that pranayam (yogic breathing exercises) can heal mitochondria?
- throwaway1851 4y ago
  Chatgpt has such a recognizable tone. I recognized it partway through the the first sentence, but I can’t quite put my finger on what tipped me off.
  - buu700 4y ago
    Off the top of my head, I think it's a few things: * Neutral/textbook-like personality * Lack of first-person pronouns * Lack of any indication of relevant experience/credentials * Lack of any tangents, stories, or any other attempt to relate with the reader * High confidence/authoritativeness/matter-of-factness * Lack of external sources or URLs * Lack of any deep connection to the context of the conversation (such as a tie-in to other aspects of the thread, a reference to some aspect of HN, a reference to current events / pop culture, etc.) * At least in this case, an overly literal interpretation of the question (despite being phrased as such, most humans wouldn't have interpreted reactspa's comment as a yes-or-no question) Overall, it's not bad at answering questions, but the fact that it doesn't attempt to impersonate humans by default can give its output a bit of an uncanny valley feeling.
- moremetadata 4y ago
  Mitochondria need Manganese Super Oxide Dismutase (MnSOD) to mitigate the harmful effects of free radicals/reactive oxygen species (ROS). Manganese (Mn) and Iron (Fe) share the same gut transporters and other transporters in the body (Divalent Metal Transporter). Fe based ROS generate the most heat in our bodies, which is why we tend not to feel the cold when young, but do when we age. When looking at the risks of too much manganese like Parkinson's, I wonder if, when we are born, are our Mn levels so high our baby/toddler/child like lack of coordination is due to excess amounts of Mn in the body? Main risks of excess Mn is from non ingested routes into the body, like inhalation and injection including perinatal (food) drips in hospitals of all places!!! Mn also does alot more in the body besides becoming MnSOD, so is this study actually witnessing the effects of not enough Manganese in the diet? The Mediterranean diet is high in seafood. Coastal waters have the highest concentration of Manganese which is why I would use mussels for my source of Omega-3 over deep sea fish, because the mussels will have a higher concentration of Manganese than the deep sea fish. Some studies suggest glycine can increase the lifespan/duration of mitochondria, so are these immune system responses like the one mentioned here an indication of an incomplete or unbalanced diet?
  - ghotli 4y ago
    I like these sorts of comments on HN, just when they're substantiated with citations I can verify independently. Otherwise it's not much more useful than noise.
graphe 4y ago
This is the similar with vitamin d and COVID. They found out COVID depleted vitamin d.
- moremetadata 4y ago
  or did the immune system response deplete vitamin d?
  - jvm___ 4y ago
    Or did you have low vitamin D, because your elderly and live in a home and don't get enough sunlight.
    - ralusek 4y ago
      Or is sufficient vitamin D highly correlated with eating a balanced diet and engaging in exercise outside?
    - mrcode007 4y ago
      Most of vitamin D in your body is synthesized from cholesterol and the extra boost you get from sun exposure is by UVB breaking cholesterol into D3. This mechanism occurs naturally with or without sun’s help.
    - moremetadata 4y ago
      My tests and comments in a British national newspaper triggered this to occur. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0960076021001102 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09600... I know a reasonable amount about vitamin D to say the least and I dont agree with all the experts. For example when discussing food cravings related to vitamin D, a PhD expert and studying vit d suggested it was folates due to the solar irradiance exposure. UV destroys folates in the body. I wasnt so sure then and I'm still not so sure this is the sole answer. I think what I told them was correct and I've since seen studies from the 1950's which would back up my assertion. In fact when considering folates create formaldehyde which is cancerous, is the reduction in cancer seen with higher levels of Vit D due to obtaining Vit D from sunshine?
_9omd 4y ago
Okay, but then what causes depression? It seems more likely that a range of environmental, lifestyle, and genetic factors cause both depression and mitochondrial damage.
- alfor 4y ago
  lack of infrared is what cause the damage. mitochondria need infrared to make melatonin(remove free radicals from combustion) Without infrared (living inside) we are in constant inflammation, especially the mitochondria The research is solid, but it’s mostly ignored.
  - Earw0rm 4y ago
    Filament and halogen lamps produce masses of infrared. Narrowband and low-energy lights (fluorescent and LED), not so much.
im3w1l 4y ago
I could see it. Depression, leading to unhealthy eating habits leading to mitochondrial stress and deterioration.

partiallypro 4y ago

One might say it's the powerhouse of being well.

itsthecourier 4y ago

If I just could remember what the mytochondria's job is...

sdenton4 4y ago
Pretty sure it makes The Force work.
alfor 4y ago
Engines of each cell. They burn food and oxygen to make atp. atp the form of energy the cell use for almost everything.

PuppyTailWags 4y ago

I feel there are way more complex systems that science haven't fully sorted out, not even close to it. Gut flora, mitrochondria, immune systems, etc. I hope at the end of the day we haven't harmed a generation of future humans with ultraprocessed food, introduction of forever-chemicals, microplastics, so on and so forth...

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
j45 4y ago
Agreed. My health improved when I switched to clarified butter (ghee) and left the “healthy” oils with their surprisingly lower burning temperature. The temperature was not the reason I switched
- rogers18445 4y ago
  Vegetable oils require an industrial process of extraction - with high temperatures and hexane, and the output is novel to humans on evolutionary scale. Vegetable oils don't come from actual vegetables, they come from inedible waste which for millions of years has been discarded - seeds etc. Edible oils are those that are not produced from something that was never food.
  - andor 4y ago
    "Vegetable oils require an industrial process of extraction - with high temperatures and hexane" You're talking about refined oils. This method of extraction has a higher yield and is therefore less expensive. It also increases the smoke point of the oil, making it more suitable for high-temperature frying and deep frying. While I don't know what's available to consumers where you live, solvents and other chemical treatment are not required for vegetable oil production. Seeds can be cold extracted. The result is much more expensive though. "the output is novel to humans on evolutionary scale" This is true for all oils and all other highly processed foods. "they come from inedible waste which for millions of years has been discarded - seeds etc" Seeds are not waste. Do you think bread is made from waste? The notion of using "waste" comes from the production of refined oils. The seeds are initially pressed, resulting in oil and meal as the byproduct. The meal still contains some oil which is extracted with solvents. After the solvent treatment, the meal is used as animal food.

unrealp 4y ago

1. Correlation does not necessarily mean cause and effect. 2. 'In older adults' - this could mean only a subset of depression spectrum. It is premature to generalise this to depression in general.

jessaustin 4y ago

Wasn't this the plot of A Wind in the Door?

teraflop 4y ago
I believe it was actually the opposite, with a character's physical health being linked to the emotional state of their mitochondria.
- jessaustin 4y ago
  Ha, I suppose after 40 years one might forget that mitochondria (or was it some creature that lived inside mitochondria?) could be emotional.

NayamAmarshe 4y ago

Powerhouse of the cell for a reason.

alfor 4y ago

Lack of infrared is what cause the damage. mitochondria need infrared to make melatonin(remove free radicals from combustion) Without infrared (living inside) we are in constant inflammation, especially the mitochondria Now, how many hours of time do the elderly go outside? Get close to zero fast. There is a care center close from home. They never go outside. Also true of most of the population. The research is solid, but it’s mostly ignored. Search medcram infrared, this doctor is trying to spread the word, so many lives could be saved. I healed my winter eczema in a short time with a simple infrared lamp after watching a few of his videos.

MuffinFlavored 4y ago
what would you say the minimum amount of time needed to be outside is
nanidin 4y ago
Citation needed.
morsch 4y ago
Maybe just watching the videos healed your condition.
Earw0rm 4y ago
Pseudoscience. Please explain: - How does the indoor environment lack infrared vs outdoors, when illuminated by filament or halogen lighting. - The relationship between inflammation (a tissue, organ or whole-organism level process) and mitochondria (a cellular organelle). In what circumstances can a mitochondrion be said to be inflamed?
- ycombinete 4y ago
  I don't know that it's established. But there does appear to be some interest in the idea from a research perspective [0][1][etc.]. And for some reason physiotherapists have been using it for years for local inflammation, but I've never really bought into the idea myself, nor am I sure about the ramifications of this for systemic inflammation even if true. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31170016/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31170016/ [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6131272/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6131272/

graderjs 4y ago

If this is the case shouldn’t sparsely taken metformin help (like couple times a month or less)? Well tolerated at low dose.

zacharyvoase 4y ago

From the study abstract: "Among depressed individuals, those with high GDF-15 had higher levels of comorbid physical illness, lower executive cognitive functioning, and higher likelihood of having late-onset depression." Is it possible the physical comorbidities could be related to the depression? I'd imagine if my body was breaking down in new ways that made my impending mortality palpable, I'd be pretty depressed too.

oifjsidjf 4y ago

Cancer cells have messed up mitochondria. Transplanting "cancerous" nuclues from one cell to healthy cell did NOT produce cancer. But transplanting cancerous cytoplasm (fluid around the cell nucleus that contains mitochondria) DID cause cancer in the healthy cell. Neurons in neurodegenerative diseases also have messed up mitochondria.

Enginerrrd 4y ago
Do you have a source I could read on this?

thebigspacefuck 4y ago

I’ve become interested in this since listening to Chris Palmer(author of “Brain Energy”) on Tim Ferris’s podcast. From my research, studies have found you can supplement with CoQ10 and Folic Acid which may cause a significant improvement of depression compared to placebo. If you have the MTHFR gene variant you may need L-methylfolate (OTC but also prescribed as Deplin). Chris Palmer recommends a ketogenic diet and had some astounding results in patients with schizophrenia where their hallucinations ceased completely. On the other hand, those with bipolar may have worsening symptoms of mania, so it’s definitely something to research first and consult with your doctor if you are interested in pursuing this type of treatment.