8 ms·

Flurly has been shut down by Stripe

103 points by archb 4y ago

livinglist 4y ago
Let this be another lesson of relying on third party software completely.
- duskwuff 4y ago
  What exactly do you think the alternative is? If you want to accept payments online, you need to do so through a credit card processor. There is no "self-hosted" alternative.
  - diazc 4y ago
    > What exactly do you think the alternative is? crypto? I was able to send the USDC stablecoin to a business accepting crypto with Coinbase Commerce just fine and transaction was very quick. I can see that even Stripe is getting involved in crypto as well.
    - jeremyjh 4y ago
      But what if they want customers to buy things?
      - diazc 4y ago
        They can buy things? Shopify, Woocommerce has integrations for this, this isn't really an issue.
        dashbarkhuss 4y ago
        They are blocked by MATCH. They will be banned from all of those as well.
        diazc 4y ago
        What has MATCH got to do with crypto? Do you have any evidence for this claim?
    - reaperducer 4y ago
      So your solution for not using a third-party is to use a different third party?
      - diazc 4y ago
        What is wrong with accepting USDC? Anyone can accept it, individuals, and even third parties.
      - charlieyu1 4y ago
        People blame crypto for many things but at least crypto is not monopolized and you don't need the approval of a third party to use crypto to pay.
    - pfsalter 4y ago
      Good luck trying to turn that USDC back into dollars without significant tax implications, and definitely good luck trying to get your customers to use USDC instead of a credit card
      - diazc 4y ago
        > ...good luck trying to get your customers to use USDC instead of a credit card It's already happening and Stripe, Coinbase, Stellar, Shopify, Woocommerce, and Moneygram are already using USDC in the real world.
  - livinglist 4y ago
    No my point is not to rely on a single third party completely
    - dan1234 4y ago
      If they’ve been add to MATCH (card provider blocklist) they won’t be getting service from any other third parties now.
- ketralnis 4y ago
  These smarmy toldyouso comments always appear on these kinds of issues but the "third party software" here is... the global financial system. Stripe booted them because the credit card networks booted them because the US legal system booted them for dealing in illegal transactions. There isn't really an alternative to the root cause here. (Unless you're a bitcoin zealot in which case spare me.)
- packetslave 4y ago
  Developer of Hacki - a Hacker News client: https://github.com/Livinglist/Hacki https://github.com/Livinglist/Hacki This you?
  - olliepop 4y ago
    Unfortunately they are relying on the iOS app store to distribute their app, so safe to say they won't be around much longer due to third-party services etc etc.
    - livinglist 4y ago
      If user don’t want to access the iOS App Store they can build the app themselves, I don’t really see what’s your counter argument here. The point I’m making is do not rely on any third party service completely
  - livinglist 4y ago
    Yes
- brookst 4y ago
  Says the guy who didn’t write his own operating system.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
anigbrowl 4y ago
It seems a little unfair to blame Stripe here. Per their communication, the site has been assessed as selling illegal merchandise and is subject to a $425k fine by the payment card issuers, despite Stripe's efforts to dispute the issue on behalf of their client. It's not clear to me whether this is the first that Flurly has heard about the issue or represents the last stage of an ongoing story, which Flurly's users were unaware of until now.
- duskwuff 4y ago
  FWIW, the site mentioned by Flurly (newsawp.com) looks like a dressed-up web spam tool. And that's assuming that it wasn't a front for something else.
- adrr 4y ago
  Stripe is on the hook for that $425k as well because it is their merchant account use to process transactions. If they don't pay it, card brands will cut them off. This why stripe is quick to ban merchants.
- wyager 4y ago
  If the linked post is truthful, the issue here is the absolute opacity of the process and the fact that this "assessment" by the credit card network (I notice you used the passive voice "been assessed" - why?) seems very questionable. I would certainly not trust stripe to effectively "dispute the issue on behalf of their client", based on experiences some of my friends have had with stripe. More likely, stripe just folded instantly upon receiving some automated nastygram from the CC issuer.
  - ryeguy 4y ago
    It's in stripe's best interest to fight the fine. Why would you think they would prefer to pay the networks and collect the fine from a merchant?
  - ywain 4y ago
    The opacity is by design. Fraudsters will use every bit of available information to make their businesses appear legit. Having worked at Stripe (though not in risk), I'd wager that Stripe did not "fold instantly" for a 425k fine. It's unfortunate, but the OP is the one who made a costly mistake when they grandfathered existing accounts into a setup they knew had liabilities.
nickstinemates 4y ago
It is so weird to see multiple typos in form emails sent to Stripe customers. https://flurly.com/images/stripe-email-1.png https://flurly.com/images/stripe-email-1.png Seriously, does anyone proof read this stuff?
- jamestimmins 4y ago
  Agreed. It makes me suspect something fishy about the whole thing.
- triyambakam 4y ago
  Do you mean s/Stripe/stripe/g?
  - goatsi 4y ago
    "some information abotu" "in roder to know"
  - nickstinemates 4y ago
    no
- Aerroon 4y ago
  On the bright side, you know you're at least dealing with a human.
simlevesque 4y ago
TLDR: Use Stripe Connect if you build a marketplace.
rvz 4y ago
Stripe strikes back and shuts down yet another startup. Let this be a lesson to all about why you should not rely on one payment gateway. Stripe is certainly not your friend and never has been and this should be a wake up call to use more than one gateway. This won't be the last and no-one should be surprised to see Stripe do this. As usual, we now wait for Stripe support to respond here on Hacker News.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 4y ago
  Or, you know, don’t sell illegal merchandise in a very public and traceable way?
- ryeguy 4y ago
  This seems like a decision passed down from the card networks through stripe. Multiple gateways wouldn't necessarily help here.
mvanbaak 4y ago
There's a spelling error in the mail from stripe: 'some information abotu'
- simondotau 4y ago
  So it was probably authored by a human rather than ChatGPT.
- dan1234 4y ago
  There’s another typo further down: ‘in roder’
neximo64 4y ago
Isnt stripe doing a good thing. It just seems like what flurly is selling is dodgy. https://flurly.com/p/paymencreditcard https://flurly.com/p/paymencreditcard
version_five 4y ago
The weirdest thing to me is that this is happening though emails. Are there also account reps or something that call and discuss with customers? Business is business and I understand from the post that this appears to be out of Stripe's hands and consistent with agreed upon terms. It's still pretty weird to me to communicate it in a form looking email message though. I would personally not want to trust large amounts of money with a company that sends me existentially bad news this way.
- WirelessGigabit 4y ago
  How else? Calls? What if no-one picks up? Mail? How do ensure it gets to the person needed? Email is basically the fastest way to spread the knowledge that they are REQUIRED by their providers to shut you down.
armatav 4y ago
Should’ve just forced everyone into Stripe Connect
ilaksh 4y ago
This makes me consider using cryptocurrency for payments on my SaaS. The one I am most familiar with is not popular (instant downvote on HN) so I won't mention it. But anyway with a cryptocurrency, at least I know that no one is going to "shut down my account" or some nonsense like that.
- brookst 4y ago
  I’m assuming this is brilliant humor and not actually proposing crypto as safer for merchants. At least with Stripe you don’t have to worry about someone shutting down your currency.
  - charlieyu1 4y ago
    I don't think it is possible to be shut down if you only accept a few established coins like BTC/ETH.
    - brookst 4y ago
      Parent implied some fringe coin. But even BTc you have to worry about your custodial wallet.
- version_five 4y ago
  Dogecoin?
eclipxe 4y ago
Flurly’s selling point was dramatically lower fees compared to Gumroad. Unfortunately the take rate isn’t sustainable to run a marketplace that does things like vet sellers - the products sold on Flurly all seemed like spam/scams -wasn’t surprising to see Stripe shut it down. If I remember correctly Flurly did $500kish in sales over maybe 6months? Sounds great but the take was only 1%. That’s $5000usd over 6 months. Not a sustainable model.
MrDunham 4y ago
From the original Show HN[1] a commenter wrote: """ As an intermediary in 2020, you're likely to see a lot of people target you in various ways because they don't like things that people are using your platform for. They may threaten you with lawsuits, complaints to law enforcement, boycotts, DDoS, trying to get your payment relationships cut off, trying to get your other platform providers to cut you off, etc. If your platform has a high profile or is used to sell something high-profile, journalists and politicians may publicly second-guess your content decisions (both things that you did remove and things that you didn't remove). I don't want to alarm you about this, but it would be nice if you could figure out any content and moderation policies ahead of time, explain them clearly to prospective sellers, and then see if you can stick to them when other people disagree with them. """ Seems a bit prophetic - at least for the need for content moderation policies (and maybe not so much grandfathering) [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25482168 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25482168
- duskwuff 4y ago
  Heh, and similarly: > I don't have digital content to sell, so I have no stake here whatsoever, but this response seems concerning. I have no problem with startups building a functional prototype without getting an army of lawyers involved. But you should then have a good gut sense that you're doing something that's pretty safe. This business model, as broad as it's positioned, clearly isn't. How can that ever be so much of an afterthought as here demonstrated? Does that also mean that the pricing is based on not factoring in the risk (penalties, legal costs) of selling copyrighted or restricted materials? Does it factor in the moderation that needs to happen? -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25485294 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25485294
thallium205 4y ago
Those clients weren’t “grandfathered”. You were processing payments for sketchy businesses that couldn’t possibly pass Stripe’s onboarding process through Connect under your merchant id. This payment aggregation is, of course, against card network rules so you got fined and placed on MATCH.
- duskwuff 4y ago
  Ooh, interesting point. I can't find Newsawp listed anywhere on archived copies of Flurly's "discover" page, e.g. https://web.archive.org/web/20221208201631/https://flurly.com/discover https://web.archive.org/web/20221208201631/https://flurly.co... But there are some incredibly suspicious "products" listed, like "Creditcardpayment", which makes me suspect that some clients were using Flurly as a generic payment gateway, or that Flurly was processing other payments under the table.
  - julianwachholz 4y ago
    You'd think if people were selling illegal products they'd be a little more subtle with their product descriptions? Might as well write "definitely drugs, 1.5 grams".
- fragmede 4y ago
  MATCH, for those outside the industry, is run by Mastercard as deny list, which means NO credit card processor is allowed to take you on as a merchant. It stands for Member Alert to Control High-Risk Merchants, and if you get on this list, you can't accept credit cards for five years.
  - techpression 4y ago
    Thank you for the explanation of what MATCH is, I guessed something similar but had no idea about the five year rule.
boxingdog 4y ago
sounds like money laundering to me or allowing some 'customers' to move money from a stolen cc to another https://flurly.com/p/paymencreditcard https://flurly.com/p/paymencreditcard
thisarticle 4y ago
Does Stripe really have so many spelling errors in their e-mail comms?
futhey 4y ago
Sorry to hear this, Flurly was a really well-built product. Crazy mix of wholesome and hustler products. Something a lot of people used: https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aflurly.com https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aflurly.com
monological 4y ago
I don't understand. Didn't he use Stripe Connect? All the accounts are then siloed out and have to pass KYC. Is it just because he let them keep selling knowing full well that they are doing something sketch?
- wlonkly 4y ago
  From the Stripe response upthread, it sounds like they weren't using Connect, just vanilla Stripe.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- dashbarkhuss 4y ago
  In Flurly's blog post, Flurly said the legacy payouts used stripe connect and other methods. And from Stripe (Edwin's) reply above, it sounds like Edwin is implying that this particular situation did not use Stripe connect.

103 points by archb 4y ago

livinglist 4y ago

Let this be another lesson of relying on third party software completely.

duskwuff 4y ago
What exactly do you think the alternative is? If you want to accept payments online, you need to do so through a credit card processor. There is no "self-hosted" alternative.
- diazc 4y ago
  > What exactly do you think the alternative is? crypto? I was able to send the USDC stablecoin to a business accepting crypto with Coinbase Commerce just fine and transaction was very quick. I can see that even Stripe is getting involved in crypto as well.
  - jeremyjh 4y ago
    But what if they want customers to buy things?
    - diazc 4y ago
      They can buy things? Shopify, Woocommerce has integrations for this, this isn't really an issue.
      - dashbarkhuss 4y ago
        They are blocked by MATCH. They will be banned from all of those as well.
        diazc 4y ago
        What has MATCH got to do with crypto? Do you have any evidence for this claim?
  - reaperducer 4y ago
    So your solution for not using a third-party is to use a different third party?
    - diazc 4y ago
      What is wrong with accepting USDC? Anyone can accept it, individuals, and even third parties.
    - charlieyu1 4y ago
      People blame crypto for many things but at least crypto is not monopolized and you don't need the approval of a third party to use crypto to pay.
  - pfsalter 4y ago
    Good luck trying to turn that USDC back into dollars without significant tax implications, and definitely good luck trying to get your customers to use USDC instead of a credit card
    - diazc 4y ago
      > ...good luck trying to get your customers to use USDC instead of a credit card It's already happening and Stripe, Coinbase, Stellar, Shopify, Woocommerce, and Moneygram are already using USDC in the real world.
- livinglist 4y ago
  No my point is not to rely on a single third party completely
  - dan1234 4y ago
    If they’ve been add to MATCH (card provider blocklist) they won’t be getting service from any other third parties now.
ketralnis 4y ago
These smarmy toldyouso comments always appear on these kinds of issues but the "third party software" here is... the global financial system. Stripe booted them because the credit card networks booted them because the US legal system booted them for dealing in illegal transactions. There isn't really an alternative to the root cause here. (Unless you're a bitcoin zealot in which case spare me.)
packetslave 4y ago
Developer of Hacki - a Hacker News client: https://github.com/Livinglist/Hacki https://github.com/Livinglist/Hacki This you?
- olliepop 4y ago
  Unfortunately they are relying on the iOS app store to distribute their app, so safe to say they won't be around much longer due to third-party services etc etc.
  - livinglist 4y ago
    If user don’t want to access the iOS App Store they can build the app themselves, I don’t really see what’s your counter argument here. The point I’m making is do not rely on any third party service completely
- livinglist 4y ago
  Yes
brookst 4y ago
Says the guy who didn’t write his own operating system.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

anigbrowl 4y ago

It seems a little unfair to blame Stripe here. Per their communication, the site has been assessed as selling illegal merchandise and is subject to a $425k fine by the payment card issuers, despite Stripe's efforts to dispute the issue on behalf of their client. It's not clear to me whether this is the first that Flurly has heard about the issue or represents the last stage of an ongoing story, which Flurly's users were unaware of until now.

duskwuff 4y ago
FWIW, the site mentioned by Flurly (newsawp.com) looks like a dressed-up web spam tool. And that's assuming that it wasn't a front for something else.
adrr 4y ago
Stripe is on the hook for that $425k as well because it is their merchant account use to process transactions. If they don't pay it, card brands will cut them off. This why stripe is quick to ban merchants.
wyager 4y ago
If the linked post is truthful, the issue here is the absolute opacity of the process and the fact that this "assessment" by the credit card network (I notice you used the passive voice "been assessed" - why?) seems very questionable. I would certainly not trust stripe to effectively "dispute the issue on behalf of their client", based on experiences some of my friends have had with stripe. More likely, stripe just folded instantly upon receiving some automated nastygram from the CC issuer.
- ryeguy 4y ago
  It's in stripe's best interest to fight the fine. Why would you think they would prefer to pay the networks and collect the fine from a merchant?
- ywain 4y ago
  The opacity is by design. Fraudsters will use every bit of available information to make their businesses appear legit. Having worked at Stripe (though not in risk), I'd wager that Stripe did not "fold instantly" for a 425k fine. It's unfortunate, but the OP is the one who made a costly mistake when they grandfathered existing accounts into a setup they knew had liabilities.

nickstinemates 4y ago

It is so weird to see multiple typos in form emails sent to Stripe customers. https://flurly.com/images/stripe-email-1.png https://flurly.com/images/stripe-email-1.png Seriously, does anyone proof read this stuff?

jamestimmins 4y ago
Agreed. It makes me suspect something fishy about the whole thing.
triyambakam 4y ago
Do you mean s/Stripe/stripe/g?
- goatsi 4y ago
  "some information abotu" "in roder to know"
- nickstinemates 4y ago
  no
Aerroon 4y ago
On the bright side, you know you're at least dealing with a human.

simlevesque 4y ago

TLDR: Use Stripe Connect if you build a marketplace.

rvz 4y ago

Stripe strikes back and shuts down yet another startup. Let this be a lesson to all about why you should not rely on one payment gateway. Stripe is certainly not your friend and never has been and this should be a wake up call to use more than one gateway. This won't be the last and no-one should be surprised to see Stripe do this. As usual, we now wait for Stripe support to respond here on Hacker News.

0cf8612b2e1e 4y ago
Or, you know, don’t sell illegal merchandise in a very public and traceable way?
ryeguy 4y ago
This seems like a decision passed down from the card networks through stripe. Multiple gateways wouldn't necessarily help here.

mvanbaak 4y ago

There's a spelling error in the mail from stripe: 'some information abotu'

simondotau 4y ago
So it was probably authored by a human rather than ChatGPT.
dan1234 4y ago
There’s another typo further down: ‘in roder’

neximo64 4y ago

Isnt stripe doing a good thing. It just seems like what flurly is selling is dodgy. https://flurly.com/p/paymencreditcard https://flurly.com/p/paymencreditcard

version_five 4y ago

The weirdest thing to me is that this is happening though emails. Are there also account reps or something that call and discuss with customers? Business is business and I understand from the post that this appears to be out of Stripe's hands and consistent with agreed upon terms. It's still pretty weird to me to communicate it in a form looking email message though. I would personally not want to trust large amounts of money with a company that sends me existentially bad news this way.

WirelessGigabit 4y ago
How else? Calls? What if no-one picks up? Mail? How do ensure it gets to the person needed? Email is basically the fastest way to spread the knowledge that they are REQUIRED by their providers to shut you down.

armatav 4y ago

Should’ve just forced everyone into Stripe Connect

ilaksh 4y ago

This makes me consider using cryptocurrency for payments on my SaaS. The one I am most familiar with is not popular (instant downvote on HN) so I won't mention it. But anyway with a cryptocurrency, at least I know that no one is going to "shut down my account" or some nonsense like that.

brookst 4y ago
I’m assuming this is brilliant humor and not actually proposing crypto as safer for merchants. At least with Stripe you don’t have to worry about someone shutting down your currency.
- charlieyu1 4y ago
  I don't think it is possible to be shut down if you only accept a few established coins like BTC/ETH.
  - brookst 4y ago
    Parent implied some fringe coin. But even BTc you have to worry about your custodial wallet.
version_five 4y ago
Dogecoin?

eclipxe 4y ago

Flurly’s selling point was dramatically lower fees compared to Gumroad. Unfortunately the take rate isn’t sustainable to run a marketplace that does things like vet sellers - the products sold on Flurly all seemed like spam/scams -wasn’t surprising to see Stripe shut it down. If I remember correctly Flurly did $500kish in sales over maybe 6months? Sounds great but the take was only 1%. That’s $5000usd over 6 months. Not a sustainable model.

MrDunham 4y ago

From the original Show HN[1] a commenter wrote: """ As an intermediary in 2020, you're likely to see a lot of people target you in various ways because they don't like things that people are using your platform for. They may threaten you with lawsuits, complaints to law enforcement, boycotts, DDoS, trying to get your payment relationships cut off, trying to get your other platform providers to cut you off, etc. If your platform has a high profile or is used to sell something high-profile, journalists and politicians may publicly second-guess your content decisions (both things that you did remove and things that you didn't remove). I don't want to alarm you about this, but it would be nice if you could figure out any content and moderation policies ahead of time, explain them clearly to prospective sellers, and then see if you can stick to them when other people disagree with them. """ Seems a bit prophetic - at least for the need for content moderation policies (and maybe not so much grandfathering) [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25482168 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25482168

duskwuff 4y ago
Heh, and similarly: > I don't have digital content to sell, so I have no stake here whatsoever, but this response seems concerning. I have no problem with startups building a functional prototype without getting an army of lawyers involved. But you should then have a good gut sense that you're doing something that's pretty safe. This business model, as broad as it's positioned, clearly isn't. How can that ever be so much of an afterthought as here demonstrated? Does that also mean that the pricing is based on not factoring in the risk (penalties, legal costs) of selling copyrighted or restricted materials? Does it factor in the moderation that needs to happen? -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25485294 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25485294

thallium205 4y ago

Those clients weren’t “grandfathered”. You were processing payments for sketchy businesses that couldn’t possibly pass Stripe’s onboarding process through Connect under your merchant id. This payment aggregation is, of course, against card network rules so you got fined and placed on MATCH.

duskwuff 4y ago
Ooh, interesting point. I can't find Newsawp listed anywhere on archived copies of Flurly's "discover" page, e.g. https://web.archive.org/web/20221208201631/https://flurly.com/discover https://web.archive.org/web/20221208201631/https://flurly.co... But there are some incredibly suspicious "products" listed, like "Creditcardpayment", which makes me suspect that some clients were using Flurly as a generic payment gateway, or that Flurly was processing other payments under the table.
- julianwachholz 4y ago
  You'd think if people were selling illegal products they'd be a little more subtle with their product descriptions? Might as well write "definitely drugs, 1.5 grams".
fragmede 4y ago
MATCH, for those outside the industry, is run by Mastercard as deny list, which means NO credit card processor is allowed to take you on as a merchant. It stands for Member Alert to Control High-Risk Merchants, and if you get on this list, you can't accept credit cards for five years.
- techpression 4y ago
  Thank you for the explanation of what MATCH is, I guessed something similar but had no idea about the five year rule.

boxingdog 4y ago

sounds like money laundering to me or allowing some 'customers' to move money from a stolen cc to another https://flurly.com/p/paymencreditcard https://flurly.com/p/paymencreditcard

thisarticle 4y ago

Does Stripe really have so many spelling errors in their e-mail comms?

futhey 4y ago

Sorry to hear this, Flurly was a really well-built product. Crazy mix of wholesome and hustler products. Something a lot of people used: https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aflurly.com https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aflurly.com

monological 4y ago

I don't understand. Didn't he use Stripe Connect? All the accounts are then siloed out and have to pass KYC. Is it just because he let them keep selling knowing full well that they are doing something sketch?

wlonkly 4y ago
From the Stripe response upthread, it sounds like they weren't using Connect, just vanilla Stripe.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
dashbarkhuss 4y ago
In Flurly's blog post, Flurly said the legacy payouts used stripe connect and other methods. And from Stripe (Edwin's) reply above, it sounds like Edwin is implying that this particular situation did not use Stripe connect.