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Just reading the beginning, it looks like they're mainly complaining about proprietary OS vendors restricting users' choice in browsers through various shenanig

Just reading the beginning, it looks like they're mainly complaining about proprietary OS vendors restricting users' choice in browsers through various shenanigans. Linux users (for desktop systems) don't have this problem, and for mobile, Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store and set it to be the default browser. Basically, if you want to have choice in a browser, don't use Apple products or a Microsoft OS. And even the Microsoft OS isn't that bad these days. Apple is now the worst offender in forcing you to use your computing the device only the way they want you to.

deafpolygon 4y ago
I was with up up until your statement: > Basically, if you want to have choice in a browser, don't use Apple products or a Microsoft OS. I get the "Apple products" bit - Apple famously refuses to allow you to install your own browser engine under the hood on iOS. But Microsoft? Can you qualify that with some concrete examples?
- account-5 4y ago
  Just one example is forcing you to open links in edge regardless of your "default" browser: https://betanews.com/2021/05/07/force-web-links-open-in-default-browser/ https://betanews.com/2021/05/07/force-web-links-open-in-defa...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - hardware2win 4y ago
    As I see this is not about opening normal links This is about opening link targeted to edge "Copy the following test link: microsoft-edge:https://www.betanews.com https://www.betanews.com"
    - em-bee 4y ago
      and exactly why should anyone be allowed to target their links to a specific browser instead of letting me use the browser of my choice?
      - cowl 4y ago
        For the majority of links there is no particular reason but for some specific cases where the link brings you to a App that the developer has build with that browser in mind it is useful. I want a way to force the opening of that app in the browser for which I have tested and don't want to receive support calls that the app is not working because you opened it in your obscure browser of choice.
        em-bee 4y ago
        such apps should not exist. it's a throwback to the old internet explorer days. you will receive support calls from people who don't run windows and thus don't have edge
        LtWorf 4y ago
        Well it's how the mailto:blabla@blabla works.
        em-bee 4y ago
        yes, but the target for each of those is user-configurable. any request to another browser would go back to my preferred one. regardless, web-apps that depend on a specific browser should not exist.
        hardware2win 4y ago
        If browsers had equal features support then yea
        4y ago
- rudolph9 4y ago
  The article talks specifically about the hoops Microsoft makes you jump through to install an alternative browser.
- izacus 4y ago
  Microsoft somehow keeps "accidentally" resetting my default browser (they love to do that on quarterly updates", they just threw an Edge icon on my desktop that reappears on every reboot and their default browser choice dialog is harassing you really hard to avoid changing the default away from Edge. They're doing a huge amount of dark pattern stuff to avoid people from using other browsers these days.
  - rezonant 4y ago
    I remember this happening to me I think 2 times back in the early days of Windows 10 and the initial push for Edge after getting rid of Internet Explorer. And yeah, they shouldn't do that. But since then, I've used Windows 10 and now use Windows 11 on multiple devices, and in my immediate friends and family they all use it too, and this has not happened at all.
    - izacus 4y ago
      They absolutely do it on major updates when you get the fullscreen "Oh, we need to update your account again" form. If you miss the tiny links "Please don't" in the corner, it'll reset the browser and default search provider.
      - rezonant 4y ago
        I've never got such a screen on a feature update. Perhaps it's because I've got local accounts?
darkstar_16 4y ago
For browsers specifically, one can select their own browser on iOS and MacOS as well.
- Semaphor 4y ago
  On iOS it’s just the chrome, not the full browser.
- flohofwoe 4y ago
  It's always Safari under the hood, but that may change soon thanks to EU regulations (https://www.macrumors.com/2022/12/14/apple-considering-non-webkit-iphone-browsers/ https://www.macrumors.com/2022/12/14/apple-considering-non-w...)
  - frizlab 4y ago
    because of, not thanks to. Once again the EU meddle with things they should not. And once again I’m pissed off by their regulations (though this time at least it makes a bit more sense than the previous time…)
    - flohofwoe 4y ago
      What's wrong with more choice and competition? I really don't understand the walled garden apologists. If Apple 'tears down the wall', users still have a choice not to install non-Apple software if they don't want to.
      - forgotpwd16 4y ago
        Going through comments really reads like a case of Stockholm syndrome.
    - iSnow 4y ago
      I am honestly glad that the EU forces vendors to put the customer first. I won't be sad if they force opening of the walled garden that is the iOS app store.
noobly 4y ago
Completely unrelated, but part of me wants to say it’s too bad that I won’t read the article due your comment (I really won’t now), because it’s an interesting headline, but at the same time these comments tell me whether it’s worth reading or not. The upside is skipping the bad or bloated articles, the downside is skipping articles that were actually good, but the top comment gave a bad review. It’s especially painful when the top comment missed the mark completely. The price you pay I guess.
the_other 4y ago
It’s only iOS/iPadOS that Apple does this with. And iOS makes up 18% of web traffic. That’s a lot, but it means 82% can use the browser they want at any time. Chrome makes up 80-odd percent of all other traffic, so the stats overall look like: Chrome: 65.6% iOS Safari: 18% All others: 16.4% Personally, I’m more concerned about Chrome than iOS.
- pakamin2 4y ago
  [dead]
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  >All others: 16.4% This whole essay is really just Mozilla complaining that they aren't on anyone's radar anymore and should be disregarded as bullcrap. Firefox once upon a time defeated IE6 despite home turf advantage, to say nothing of Chrome which played that game even better. If Mozilla wants more market share, maybe they should make software people actually fucking want.
  - nhchris 4y ago
    How many people choose a browser, compared to those that use whatever the OS defaults to/pushes on them?
    - mschuster91 4y ago
      Microsoft Edge's main purpose is to download Chrome.
      - 867-5309 4y ago
        Windows now ships with wget or curl (can't remember which) so there's no longer any need to use its browser!
    - Dalewyn 4y ago
      The millions if not billions of Windows users who choose to use Chrome? Also, using the OS default is also a choice. If someone uses Edge in Windows, that's a choice. It's only iOS where users have no choice.
krono 4y ago
I've been overhearing lots of complaints coming out of the Ubuntu corner about how everything is moving to snap exclusive distribution. Not too familiar with the whole snap ordeal myself, but I understand it is quite the shitshow and that can't be good for the Linux browser landscape.
- sam_lowry_ 4y ago
  Ubuntu is dead.
  - ladyanita22 4y ago
    Not at all
  - mardifoufs 4y ago
    It's by far the best distro, even for production loads. I know, controversial opinion, but ubuntu has never been better (even if I dislike snaps). And almost everything is now built to run on Ubuntu first. Even RHEL would require tinkering for tons of software I need in dev/prod.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - loup-vaillant 4y ago
    Based on what? What's the most popular/live alternative?
  - oblio 4y ago
    Statistics?
lovich 4y ago
>...(or better yet, Firefox Nightly) ... I think this is some of the disconnect between users on this site who don't understand why people would possibly actively choose iOS even with the lockin. Most people do not want to use a product that is constantly updating and adding features in that are going to be taken out shortly, for something as basic nowadays as web browsing. If you're on the cool new technology people the average person likes rapid innovations. Once your tech is considered a commodity, then the average person wants a the equivalent of a toaster. Most people do not want to fiddle with their toasters or find out each day what new changes their toaster has. They want to put in bread, and get out toast. For browser, most people want to just be able to navigate to a handful of websites. The restrictions are a feature and not a bug.
- brozaman 4y ago
  > I think this is some of the disconnect between users on this site who don't understand why people would possibly actively choose iOS even with the lockin. Most people do not want to use a product that is constantly updating and adding features Precisely the reason why I have an iPhone and an iPad is because they give me 5 years of updates and even more of security fixes.
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    Firefox feels the need to scream at me every time it updates, which is all the time—far more often than iOS, and far more often than Safari. I think that's what the GP meant. FF does the equivalent of a major iOS update several times per year, as far as the user experience of the update is concerned—iOS doesn't fill my screen with on-launch "hi! We updated!" notices unless the release is a big one and there's actually new stuff to tell me about, in which case they usually keep it short and to the point. FF opens & foregrounds a new tab to tell me about the exciting update (ugh) and sometimes also pops some call-out bubbles for Pocket or some other crap, way, way more often than any other software I use, and it's really annoying, especially for a piece of software I've been using exactly the same way since it was called Phoenix and before some of the people working on it were born, probably—none of the shit in those announcements has ever, once, been anything I needed or wanted to know about. This, despite monkeying with UI and force-foregrounding unrequested content being UI poison for people with low computer literacy. I roll my eyes and close the crap; others get confused and are significantly delayed in doing whatever they actually wanted to do with the browser, on top of feeling confused and betrayed that their browser did something different when they opened it this time.
kolinko 4y ago
“offender” suggests undue negativity. For me, the biggest selling point of iOS is it’s lock in - be it in browsers or the store. My phone is the centre of my privacy, and I want it to be as solid and as safe as possible. So far nobody developed a mobile system that is more open and just as safe and robust.
- nhchris 4y ago
  So don't install alternate app stores or side-load apps. Why do you need lock-in?
- largepeepee 4y ago
  >My phone is the centre of my privacy, and I want it to be as solid and as safe as possible. If privacy was the main concern, you wouldn't be using any of the ad vendors, which includes apple. Yes, apple does sell your data. They just don't want others to do it too. There are plenty of smaller security focused phone vendors these days that doesn't intersect with user interest.
  - shawn-butler 4y ago
    >> Yes, apple does sell your data. They just don't want others to do it too. To whom?
  - kergonath 4y ago
    > If privacy was the main concern, you wouldn't be using any of the ad vendors, which includes apple. That is a false equivalence. > Yes, apple does sell your data. They just don't want others to do it too. This badly needs a source. > There are plenty of smaller security focused phone vendors these days that doesn't intersect with user interest. This badly needs examples.
  - largepeepee 4y ago
    For those curious. Just look at the front page of the app store, literal ad right there amongst numerous locations. Their ad revenue has been expanding since 2016, and despite them hiding exact ad revenue in their quarterly, Tim Cook has mentioned in the investor call that "advertising and analytics, apple services revenue set an all-time record of 20.8 billion in q4".
severino 4y ago
> Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store Not every Android device has access to Google Play, yet Mozilla still doesn't provide an APK download for Firefox from its website to make sure those users can have their browser too, despite all of this complaining.
- rezonant 4y ago
  This is actually another example of where OSes get in the way of browser freedom. Because of Google Play Services and its dependency on phones that have Google Play Store, it may be more difficult to support multiple builds of the app than it should be. Still, this is a good point, would love to see Mozilla support non-GMS Android devices.
  - severino 4y ago
    > Still, this is a good point, would love to see Mozilla support non-GMS Android devices Well, actually, they "support" non-GMS Android devices in the sense that no Google services are required to run Firefox on Android. But you have to get the APK from unofficial sites like APKpure or APKmirror (trusting you're downloading a non-tampered file) or finding the appropriate build among all the releases in Github.
    - rezonant 4y ago
      Oh maybe I should have checked before replying. I don't think this is too hard for someone who wants a direct APK https://github.com/mozilla-mobile/fenix/releases https://github.com/mozilla-mobile/fenix/releases Perhaps the complaint is that they are not releasing to competing stores like Amazon? I would find it hard to believe that legit Firefox builds are not already on Fdroid
      - severino 4y ago
        It's not the same as clicking on a direct APK download link as WhatsApp does on their website. You download and install, that's it. Here, first get into Github, browse between beta releases, OK, is this one? Now, should I get arm64 or armeabi? Definitely not a simple process, and of course not suitable at all for non technical users.
jemmyw 4y ago
You missed ChromeOS which is the second worst after iOS. Then Windows, where you can set the default but MS keep trying to push edge in your face, then MacOS which only really pushes Safari on first install.
anon1385 4y ago
>they're mainly complaining about proprietary OS vendors restricting users' choice in browsers I guess they think everybody forgot about the many years and hundreds of millions of dollars that Mozilla spent trying to get people to adopt FirefoxOS. An operating system that… only allowed using Firefox as the web browser.
amelius 4y ago
If you want general purpose computers, look for industrial gear, not consumer products.
- mtrower 4y ago
  Industrial gear? What are you talking about here? Examples?
  - amelius 4y ago
    I'm talking about the kind of computers you would use when you'd build some industrial machine. E.g. say you make MRI machines. You're not going to put consumer hardware like a MacBook inside your MRI machine.
flakeoil 4y ago
> Microsoft OS isn't that bad these days Really? Edge is the default option, they push you to make Edge the default if you are using Chrome or Firefox and every now and then they ask you to accept Microsoft's default Windows settings. The show their MSN news by default, Bing is default, they show ads in the OS, they constantly ask you to log in to your Microsoft account, everything leads to MS 365 office products or MS cloud storage. It's a horrible OS and I wonder how long this can fly by any anti-trust measures.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  I was only addressing how hard it is to install a browser of your choice on Windows, that's all. Honestly, I haven't used Windows in a while so maybe I'm out-of-date, maybe it's much worse than I thought. Ads on the start menu and stuff like that is horrible, I agree, but it's a different issue than browser choice.
  - jeroenhd 4y ago
    When you try to install Firefox from a clean Windows install, Microsoft gets desperate. The default search engine is Bing so if you search for "download Firefox" you get a large ad-like panel above the results telling you how great Edge is and that you really don't need to change browsers. Then when you finally install Firefox, it'll put ads in your start menu to "try Edge", I've even seen it add a little popup when I tried to open Firefox though I don't know if they still do that. Microsoft disabled the API that let's you change the default browser because Chrome and Firefox kept doing that automatically when you clicked a button. Mozilla reverse engineered the new method of setting the browser but Microsoft then cried foul because you're not supposed to be able to set the default browser from within your preferred browser unless you're Edge. And then with every major update you risk your browser preferences being reset because of "bugs". I've had Google set as my default search engine in Edge (to avoid the desperate ads from MS) but that got reset one update. The default browser got reset twice. Microsoft assures us that these were bugs and mistakes and that they didn't intend to change user settings, though. I have a hard time believing any of it ever since the day I got an ad for their browser in my start menu.
- 4y ago
mid-kid 4y ago
On Android, it's often impossible to replace the chrome webview. The only way to do so is by modifying the system's whitelist for webviews. On linux and other platforms, apps get a choice of what webview they use, be it qtwebengine, webkit-gtk, or what have you.
roydigerhund 4y ago
The advantage Safari gives users on iOS (and macOS) over Chrome and probably also Firefox is power consumption. Which is a crucial factor on mobile devices.
nailer 4y ago
> if you want to have choice in a browser, don't use Apple products or a Microsoft OS What Microsoft OS restricts your browser choice?
toastal 4y ago
Android makes it very difficult to modify the system WebView engine. This means no alternatives to one of the more important parts of the system. If you want adblock in a web view, tough luck for most.
geocar 4y ago
> Apple is now the worst offender in forcing you to use your computing the device only the way they want you to. This is wrong. Google is the worst offender; Apple is an under-appreciated hero. I have to use some web pages- for taxes and public services, for my banks and so on. Those pages don’t work in Firefox and the only reason they work in Safari is because people don’t have a choice on Apple devices. Of course they have a choice: they could just have bought a google phone, but I have worked in ads long enough to know I want to stay as far away from Google as I can, and I cannot tell you how sad this makes me to see my choice being threatened just so you could use chrome if you “wanted” to.
- forgotpwd16 4y ago
  >Google is the worst offender How the issue you're raising has anything to do with Google? Google hasn't forced those devs to not care about Firefox.
  - geocar 4y ago
    > How the issue you're raising has anything to do with Google? Because Google benefits from this and not me. I think you would have to be stupidly naive to believe this legislative lobby happened without their help. > Google hasn't forced those devs to not care about Firefox. The only people who know that are Google and those devs, not me and not you. But Apple did force those devs to care about Safari, and the things that work in both Safari and Chrome usually work in Firefox, so if you care at all about browser choice, you should be very afraid of this: As soon as my bank can tell me to install Chrome in order to pay my bills instead of doing any more work supporting Safari (and by extension Firefox), you better believe they will.
trelane 4y ago
> Apple is now the worst offender in forcing you to use your computing the device only the way they want you to. Is it your device if it obeys someone else?
- unglaublich 4y ago
  All your belongings have to obey the legal requirements set by others. E.g. building code; electronic interference limits; road safety performance; emission limits; food safety standards... Yet they can still be yours.
  - trelane 4y ago
    I am not convinced that safety regulations enacted by elected bodies are the same as proprietary software offering its manufacturer against the user's wishes.
    - unglaublich 4y ago
      They are not the same at all, so your statement is incorrect.
      - trelane 4y ago
        I don't see your argument here. Is your objection solely that I was insufficiently restrictive in my statement? addendum: You're saying your analogy is fallacious, therefore I'm incorrect. Which I find rather confusing.
surge 4y ago
I have zero trouble using Firefox on my Mac, other than the OS wanting to use Safari sometimes, what's the problem? Edit: Ah Apple products, I didn't factor in iPhone/Pad, yeah I dislike iOS and don't use it for that reason.
rendaw 4y ago
I think the user choice doesn't really matter here. Web devs want 99% of people to be able to use their stuff, so they develop for the least shared functionality and companies/apps/services that _need_ functionality just don't exist or else the companies that want to do it give up after creating mobile apps (linux users, and sometimes even desktop users are out of luck).

deafpolygon 4y ago

I was with up up until your statement: > Basically, if you want to have choice in a browser, don't use Apple products or a Microsoft OS. I get the "Apple products" bit - Apple famously refuses to allow you to install your own browser engine under the hood on iOS. But Microsoft? Can you qualify that with some concrete examples?

account-5 4y ago
Just one example is forcing you to open links in edge regardless of your "default" browser: https://betanews.com/2021/05/07/force-web-links-open-in-default-browser/ https://betanews.com/2021/05/07/force-web-links-open-in-defa...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- hardware2win 4y ago
  As I see this is not about opening normal links This is about opening link targeted to edge "Copy the following test link: microsoft-edge:https://www.betanews.com https://www.betanews.com"
  - em-bee 4y ago
    and exactly why should anyone be allowed to target their links to a specific browser instead of letting me use the browser of my choice?
    - cowl 4y ago
      For the majority of links there is no particular reason but for some specific cases where the link brings you to a App that the developer has build with that browser in mind it is useful. I want a way to force the opening of that app in the browser for which I have tested and don't want to receive support calls that the app is not working because you opened it in your obscure browser of choice.
      - em-bee 4y ago
        such apps should not exist. it's a throwback to the old internet explorer days. you will receive support calls from people who don't run windows and thus don't have edge
        LtWorf 4y ago
        Well it's how the mailto:blabla@blabla works.
        em-bee 4y ago
        yes, but the target for each of those is user-configurable. any request to another browser would go back to my preferred one. regardless, web-apps that depend on a specific browser should not exist.
        hardware2win 4y ago
        If browsers had equal features support then yea
        4y ago
rudolph9 4y ago
The article talks specifically about the hoops Microsoft makes you jump through to install an alternative browser.
izacus 4y ago
Microsoft somehow keeps "accidentally" resetting my default browser (they love to do that on quarterly updates", they just threw an Edge icon on my desktop that reappears on every reboot and their default browser choice dialog is harassing you really hard to avoid changing the default away from Edge. They're doing a huge amount of dark pattern stuff to avoid people from using other browsers these days.
- rezonant 4y ago
  I remember this happening to me I think 2 times back in the early days of Windows 10 and the initial push for Edge after getting rid of Internet Explorer. And yeah, they shouldn't do that. But since then, I've used Windows 10 and now use Windows 11 on multiple devices, and in my immediate friends and family they all use it too, and this has not happened at all.
  - izacus 4y ago
    They absolutely do it on major updates when you get the fullscreen "Oh, we need to update your account again" form. If you miss the tiny links "Please don't" in the corner, it'll reset the browser and default search provider.
    - rezonant 4y ago
      I've never got such a screen on a feature update. Perhaps it's because I've got local accounts?

darkstar_16 4y ago

For browsers specifically, one can select their own browser on iOS and MacOS as well.

Semaphor 4y ago
On iOS it’s just the chrome, not the full browser.
flohofwoe 4y ago
It's always Safari under the hood, but that may change soon thanks to EU regulations (https://www.macrumors.com/2022/12/14/apple-considering-non-webkit-iphone-browsers/ https://www.macrumors.com/2022/12/14/apple-considering-non-w...)
- frizlab 4y ago
  because of, not thanks to. Once again the EU meddle with things they should not. And once again I’m pissed off by their regulations (though this time at least it makes a bit more sense than the previous time…)
  - flohofwoe 4y ago
    What's wrong with more choice and competition? I really don't understand the walled garden apologists. If Apple 'tears down the wall', users still have a choice not to install non-Apple software if they don't want to.
    - forgotpwd16 4y ago
      Going through comments really reads like a case of Stockholm syndrome.
  - iSnow 4y ago
    I am honestly glad that the EU forces vendors to put the customer first. I won't be sad if they force opening of the walled garden that is the iOS app store.

noobly 4y ago

Completely unrelated, but part of me wants to say it’s too bad that I won’t read the article due your comment (I really won’t now), because it’s an interesting headline, but at the same time these comments tell me whether it’s worth reading or not. The upside is skipping the bad or bloated articles, the downside is skipping articles that were actually good, but the top comment gave a bad review. It’s especially painful when the top comment missed the mark completely. The price you pay I guess.

the_other 4y ago

It’s only iOS/iPadOS that Apple does this with. And iOS makes up 18% of web traffic. That’s a lot, but it means 82% can use the browser they want at any time. Chrome makes up 80-odd percent of all other traffic, so the stats overall look like: Chrome: 65.6% iOS Safari: 18% All others: 16.4% Personally, I’m more concerned about Chrome than iOS.

pakamin2 4y ago
[dead]
Dalewyn 4y ago
>All others: 16.4% This whole essay is really just Mozilla complaining that they aren't on anyone's radar anymore and should be disregarded as bullcrap. Firefox once upon a time defeated IE6 despite home turf advantage, to say nothing of Chrome which played that game even better. If Mozilla wants more market share, maybe they should make software people actually fucking want.
- nhchris 4y ago
  How many people choose a browser, compared to those that use whatever the OS defaults to/pushes on them?
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    Microsoft Edge's main purpose is to download Chrome.
    - 867-5309 4y ago
      Windows now ships with wget or curl (can't remember which) so there's no longer any need to use its browser!
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    The millions if not billions of Windows users who choose to use Chrome? Also, using the OS default is also a choice. If someone uses Edge in Windows, that's a choice. It's only iOS where users have no choice.

krono 4y ago

I've been overhearing lots of complaints coming out of the Ubuntu corner about how everything is moving to snap exclusive distribution. Not too familiar with the whole snap ordeal myself, but I understand it is quite the shitshow and that can't be good for the Linux browser landscape.

sam_lowry_ 4y ago
Ubuntu is dead.
- ladyanita22 4y ago
  Not at all
- mardifoufs 4y ago
  It's by far the best distro, even for production loads. I know, controversial opinion, but ubuntu has never been better (even if I dislike snaps). And almost everything is now built to run on Ubuntu first. Even RHEL would require tinkering for tons of software I need in dev/prod.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- loup-vaillant 4y ago
  Based on what? What's the most popular/live alternative?
- oblio 4y ago
  Statistics?

lovich 4y ago

>...(or better yet, Firefox Nightly) ... I think this is some of the disconnect between users on this site who don't understand why people would possibly actively choose iOS even with the lockin. Most people do not want to use a product that is constantly updating and adding features in that are going to be taken out shortly, for something as basic nowadays as web browsing. If you're on the cool new technology people the average person likes rapid innovations. Once your tech is considered a commodity, then the average person wants a the equivalent of a toaster. Most people do not want to fiddle with their toasters or find out each day what new changes their toaster has. They want to put in bread, and get out toast. For browser, most people want to just be able to navigate to a handful of websites. The restrictions are a feature and not a bug.

brozaman 4y ago
> I think this is some of the disconnect between users on this site who don't understand why people would possibly actively choose iOS even with the lockin. Most people do not want to use a product that is constantly updating and adding features Precisely the reason why I have an iPhone and an iPad is because they give me 5 years of updates and even more of security fixes.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  Firefox feels the need to scream at me every time it updates, which is all the time—far more often than iOS, and far more often than Safari. I think that's what the GP meant. FF does the equivalent of a major iOS update several times per year, as far as the user experience of the update is concerned—iOS doesn't fill my screen with on-launch "hi! We updated!" notices unless the release is a big one and there's actually new stuff to tell me about, in which case they usually keep it short and to the point. FF opens & foregrounds a new tab to tell me about the exciting update (ugh) and sometimes also pops some call-out bubbles for Pocket or some other crap, way, way more often than any other software I use, and it's really annoying, especially for a piece of software I've been using exactly the same way since it was called Phoenix and before some of the people working on it were born, probably—none of the shit in those announcements has ever, once, been anything I needed or wanted to know about. This, despite monkeying with UI and force-foregrounding unrequested content being UI poison for people with low computer literacy. I roll my eyes and close the crap; others get confused and are significantly delayed in doing whatever they actually wanted to do with the browser, on top of feeling confused and betrayed that their browser did something different when they opened it this time.

kolinko 4y ago

“offender” suggests undue negativity. For me, the biggest selling point of iOS is it’s lock in - be it in browsers or the store. My phone is the centre of my privacy, and I want it to be as solid and as safe as possible. So far nobody developed a mobile system that is more open and just as safe and robust.

nhchris 4y ago
So don't install alternate app stores or side-load apps. Why do you need lock-in?
largepeepee 4y ago
>My phone is the centre of my privacy, and I want it to be as solid and as safe as possible. If privacy was the main concern, you wouldn't be using any of the ad vendors, which includes apple. Yes, apple does sell your data. They just don't want others to do it too. There are plenty of smaller security focused phone vendors these days that doesn't intersect with user interest.
- shawn-butler 4y ago
  >> Yes, apple does sell your data. They just don't want others to do it too. To whom?
- kergonath 4y ago
  > If privacy was the main concern, you wouldn't be using any of the ad vendors, which includes apple. That is a false equivalence. > Yes, apple does sell your data. They just don't want others to do it too. This badly needs a source. > There are plenty of smaller security focused phone vendors these days that doesn't intersect with user interest. This badly needs examples.
- largepeepee 4y ago
  For those curious. Just look at the front page of the app store, literal ad right there amongst numerous locations. Their ad revenue has been expanding since 2016, and despite them hiding exact ad revenue in their quarterly, Tim Cook has mentioned in the investor call that "advertising and analytics, apple services revenue set an all-time record of 20.8 billion in q4".

severino 4y ago

> Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store Not every Android device has access to Google Play, yet Mozilla still doesn't provide an APK download for Firefox from its website to make sure those users can have their browser too, despite all of this complaining.

rezonant 4y ago
This is actually another example of where OSes get in the way of browser freedom. Because of Google Play Services and its dependency on phones that have Google Play Store, it may be more difficult to support multiple builds of the app than it should be. Still, this is a good point, would love to see Mozilla support non-GMS Android devices.
- severino 4y ago
  > Still, this is a good point, would love to see Mozilla support non-GMS Android devices Well, actually, they "support" non-GMS Android devices in the sense that no Google services are required to run Firefox on Android. But you have to get the APK from unofficial sites like APKpure or APKmirror (trusting you're downloading a non-tampered file) or finding the appropriate build among all the releases in Github.
  - rezonant 4y ago
    Oh maybe I should have checked before replying. I don't think this is too hard for someone who wants a direct APK https://github.com/mozilla-mobile/fenix/releases https://github.com/mozilla-mobile/fenix/releases Perhaps the complaint is that they are not releasing to competing stores like Amazon? I would find it hard to believe that legit Firefox builds are not already on Fdroid
    - severino 4y ago
      It's not the same as clicking on a direct APK download link as WhatsApp does on their website. You download and install, that's it. Here, first get into Github, browse between beta releases, OK, is this one? Now, should I get arm64 or armeabi? Definitely not a simple process, and of course not suitable at all for non technical users.

jemmyw 4y ago

You missed ChromeOS which is the second worst after iOS. Then Windows, where you can set the default but MS keep trying to push edge in your face, then MacOS which only really pushes Safari on first install.

anon1385 4y ago

>they're mainly complaining about proprietary OS vendors restricting users' choice in browsers I guess they think everybody forgot about the many years and hundreds of millions of dollars that Mozilla spent trying to get people to adopt FirefoxOS. An operating system that… only allowed using Firefox as the web browser.

amelius 4y ago

If you want general purpose computers, look for industrial gear, not consumer products.

mtrower 4y ago
Industrial gear? What are you talking about here? Examples?
- amelius 4y ago
  I'm talking about the kind of computers you would use when you'd build some industrial machine. E.g. say you make MRI machines. You're not going to put consumer hardware like a MacBook inside your MRI machine.

flakeoil 4y ago

> Microsoft OS isn't that bad these days Really? Edge is the default option, they push you to make Edge the default if you are using Chrome or Firefox and every now and then they ask you to accept Microsoft's default Windows settings. The show their MSN news by default, Bing is default, they show ads in the OS, they constantly ask you to log in to your Microsoft account, everything leads to MS 365 office products or MS cloud storage. It's a horrible OS and I wonder how long this can fly by any anti-trust measures.

midoridensha 4y ago
I was only addressing how hard it is to install a browser of your choice on Windows, that's all. Honestly, I haven't used Windows in a while so maybe I'm out-of-date, maybe it's much worse than I thought. Ads on the start menu and stuff like that is horrible, I agree, but it's a different issue than browser choice.
- jeroenhd 4y ago
  When you try to install Firefox from a clean Windows install, Microsoft gets desperate. The default search engine is Bing so if you search for "download Firefox" you get a large ad-like panel above the results telling you how great Edge is and that you really don't need to change browsers. Then when you finally install Firefox, it'll put ads in your start menu to "try Edge", I've even seen it add a little popup when I tried to open Firefox though I don't know if they still do that. Microsoft disabled the API that let's you change the default browser because Chrome and Firefox kept doing that automatically when you clicked a button. Mozilla reverse engineered the new method of setting the browser but Microsoft then cried foul because you're not supposed to be able to set the default browser from within your preferred browser unless you're Edge. And then with every major update you risk your browser preferences being reset because of "bugs". I've had Google set as my default search engine in Edge (to avoid the desperate ads from MS) but that got reset one update. The default browser got reset twice. Microsoft assures us that these were bugs and mistakes and that they didn't intend to change user settings, though. I have a hard time believing any of it ever since the day I got an ad for their browser in my start menu.
4y ago

mid-kid 4y ago

On Android, it's often impossible to replace the chrome webview. The only way to do so is by modifying the system's whitelist for webviews. On linux and other platforms, apps get a choice of what webview they use, be it qtwebengine, webkit-gtk, or what have you.

roydigerhund 4y ago

The advantage Safari gives users on iOS (and macOS) over Chrome and probably also Firefox is power consumption. Which is a crucial factor on mobile devices.

nailer 4y ago

> if you want to have choice in a browser, don't use Apple products or a Microsoft OS What Microsoft OS restricts your browser choice?

toastal 4y ago

Android makes it very difficult to modify the system WebView engine. This means no alternatives to one of the more important parts of the system. If you want adblock in a web view, tough luck for most.

geocar 4y ago

> Apple is now the worst offender in forcing you to use your computing the device only the way they want you to. This is wrong. Google is the worst offender; Apple is an under-appreciated hero. I have to use some web pages- for taxes and public services, for my banks and so on. Those pages don’t work in Firefox and the only reason they work in Safari is because people don’t have a choice on Apple devices. Of course they have a choice: they could just have bought a google phone, but I have worked in ads long enough to know I want to stay as far away from Google as I can, and I cannot tell you how sad this makes me to see my choice being threatened just so you could use chrome if you “wanted” to.

forgotpwd16 4y ago
>Google is the worst offender How the issue you're raising has anything to do with Google? Google hasn't forced those devs to not care about Firefox.
- geocar 4y ago
  > How the issue you're raising has anything to do with Google? Because Google benefits from this and not me. I think you would have to be stupidly naive to believe this legislative lobby happened without their help. > Google hasn't forced those devs to not care about Firefox. The only people who know that are Google and those devs, not me and not you. But Apple did force those devs to care about Safari, and the things that work in both Safari and Chrome usually work in Firefox, so if you care at all about browser choice, you should be very afraid of this: As soon as my bank can tell me to install Chrome in order to pay my bills instead of doing any more work supporting Safari (and by extension Firefox), you better believe they will.

trelane 4y ago

> Apple is now the worst offender in forcing you to use your computing the device only the way they want you to. Is it your device if it obeys someone else?

unglaublich 4y ago
All your belongings have to obey the legal requirements set by others. E.g. building code; electronic interference limits; road safety performance; emission limits; food safety standards... Yet they can still be yours.
- trelane 4y ago
  I am not convinced that safety regulations enacted by elected bodies are the same as proprietary software offering its manufacturer against the user's wishes.
  - unglaublich 4y ago
    They are not the same at all, so your statement is incorrect.
    - trelane 4y ago
      I don't see your argument here. Is your objection solely that I was insufficiently restrictive in my statement? addendum: You're saying your analogy is fallacious, therefore I'm incorrect. Which I find rather confusing.

surge 4y ago

I have zero trouble using Firefox on my Mac, other than the OS wanting to use Safari sometimes, what's the problem? Edit: Ah Apple products, I didn't factor in iPhone/Pad, yeah I dislike iOS and don't use it for that reason.

rendaw 4y ago

I think the user choice doesn't really matter here. Web devs want 99% of people to be able to use their stuff, so they develop for the least shared functionality and companies/apps/services that _need_ functionality just don't exist or else the companies that want to do it give up after creating mobile apps (linux users, and sometimes even desktop users are out of luck).