42 ms·

Yes, Crypto Is All a Scam

238 points by cpa 4y ago

mdrzn 4y ago
"Every day I write something about crypto to the nature of “crypto is all a scam”" Yet he still write daily about Crypto. Very weird. Whoever wanted to be convinced that is a scam should be convinced by now, everyone else just want to hold some coins.
- senttoschool 4y ago
  everyone else just want to hold some coins. Until those people inevitably get rug pulled, scammed, ponzied. Then they will be convinced. Actually, most people who "hold some coins" know 99.99% of crypto is a scam but they still do it anyways in hopes of making money.
  - mdrzn 4y ago
    So what is the utility in writing the same articles and screaming the same points over and over again, to those who are still holding coins, and are clearly not interested in selling because "it might go to zero"? "You're an idiot, it's a scam, it's a ponzi, why are you still holding????" Live and let live.
    - cmrdporcupine 4y ago
      Because one sees the damage to individuals and society, and wants to try to help to mitigate it? Not selfish enough of an explanation?
      - ur-whale 4y ago
        >Not selfish enough of an explanation? Selfish isn't the word I would use, no. Self-righteous and do-gooder do come to mind quite quickly though.
        DonHopkins 4y ago
        What's wrong with annoying the do-badders and their shills?
    - DonHopkins 4y ago
      Because it makes the other cockroaches come out of the woodwork and reveal themselves by attacking him for speaking the truth.
- simplotek 4y ago
  > Whoever wanted to be convinced that is a scam should be convinced by now, everyone else just want to hold some coins. In other words, "please don't scare away the remaining suckers."
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- ur-whale 4y ago
  > Very weird. Not weird. He found a way to make himself sound important on the internets and therefore clings to it.
LatteLazy 4y ago
>Similarly, the “crypto as currency” and “crypto as investment” narratives have been thoroughly debunked because the truth value of these statements is predicated on factual claims that are demonstrably falsifiable. It must be nice to be able to just state something is thoroughly debunked and not have to give any evidence, despite billions of people not knowing, and be magically right...
- simplotek 4y ago
  > It must be nice to be able to just state something is thoroughly debunked and not have to give any evidence (...) That's quite the amusing comment, given the fact that crypto-bros reiterate that crypto is somehow money in spite of if repeatedly failing each and every single trait that makes something a currency. Now, when someone points out that fact, here we are with a newfound passion for argumentative formalities as if you can make this fact go away by petitioning the ref.
  - LatteLazy 4y ago
    There are 2 really amusing things here: * that so many people think crypto is either perfect or totally evil and admit no middle ground. * that both groups constantly claim their (rather extremist) views are facts but refuse to substantiate them. I wonder how long it will take for people to agree that crypto neither cures cancer nor causes it...
    - afarrell 4y ago
      I'm still wondering if there is good evidence that crypto is useful for Venezuelan economic refugees. I imagine such evidence is hard to find publicly because removing the obscurity would raise the probability that a friend of Maduro uses it against such refugees.
    - roody15 4y ago
      I agree think honestly there is room for middle ground here. Crypto didn’t stop humans from being humans. There are always people trying to make a quick an easy dollar. The tech really has little do with this aspect of human behavior.
nivenkos 4y ago
The worst thing is the terrible incentives it's created by making it so easy for people to exploit free CPU capacity, and transfer money with no monitoring for fraud or ability to reverse it. So no-one can offer free/demo tier CPU access anymore e.g. on low-end box VMs, ISP shell servers, etc. Likewise any sort of interaction with strangers get absolutely bombarded with fake accounts pushing crypto scams - second-hand sales, dating apps, meetups, pen pals, language exchanges, property listings, job boards, etc., there was always spam before but it was harder to directly monetise. I hope it all gets banned soon. If we can ban Russia from SWIFT, we can do the same to all accounts that ever have transactions with known cryptocurrency exchanges, and refer their owners to the local tax authorities for auditing, etc.
- jjtheblunt 4y ago
  Isn’t the public ledger extreme monitoring, when a bit of correlating of addresses is layered on? I mean aren’t there even services used by law enforcement for such?
  - nivenkos 4y ago
    But many exchanges dodge KYC so you can't tie an address to a person necessarily.
    - jjtheblunt 4y ago
      KYC is a legal requirement, so to your point i think you’re saying exchanges outside the law?
patchtopic 4y ago
this garbage is getting really tedious and repetitive. it's as bad as the "cryptobros" stuff
ShowalkKama 4y ago
I'd like to remind the readers that some people use crypto as a payment method and do not speculate. As far as I know there is no alternative with the same level of convinience that crypto provide (KYC-less and fast payments to anyone in the world with just one secret). Remember that next time you suggest something among the lines of "crypto should be made illegal".
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > no alternative with the same level of convinience that crypto provide (KYC-less There is a legitimate argument for creating KYC-light rails for small global transfers. That argument is not advanced by crypto's wanton criminality.
  - rom-antics 4y ago
    > There is a legitimate argument for creating KYC-light rails for small global transfers Then let's do it! I keep hearing that we "should" fix regulation or we "should" improve global transfers. Competition spurs innovation. The global financial hegemony can now consider themselves competed against. The proper move is not to ban your competition, the proper move is to build a better product. If, for every citizen in every country on earth, we fix regulations, build efficient payment rails, solve corruption, and stop printing money and causing hyperinflation, crypto truly will have no use case and will quickly go to 0. I'd love to see that happen. Your move, incumbents.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > Competition spurs innovation. The global financial hegemony can now consider themselves competed against This isn’t how politics works. Crypto threw a flaming lint ball of fraud at the rich world. Pleading that it’s also helping the disenfranchised doesn’t help advance a KYC-light discussion as much as a regulatory-vacuum one. It’s easy to ban (or heavily tax and erect stricter KYC guardrails at the interfaces between crypto and the fiat and real economies, what I’m concluding is the best middle path) and punt the “what did we learn” bit to a committee with a few years to write a report. Especially when the beneficiaries don’t vote for you.
capableweb 4y ago
> scam /skæm/ (noun): a clever and dishonest plan for making money This fits many projects in the cryptocurrency space. But what about the first successful cryptocurrency Bitcoin? Was it dishonest? What about Ethereum, is it also dishonest? Seems like yes, there are lots of scams in cryptocurrency. But there is also projects that are not, so in the end, the title ends up being clickbait, which I (just like you) fell for...
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > Bitcoin? Was it dishonest? Bitcoin per se, no. Bitcoin as practiced, yes. Broadly brushed, there are legitimate academic questions in crypto/blockchains/web3. The moment the work is remunerated for something other than its intellectual value, however, it's fair to revoke the benefit of doubt.
  - capableweb 4y ago
    > Bitcoin per se, no. Bitcoin as practiced, yes. I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean with "Bitcoin as practiced". "Bitcoin as practiced" made Bitcoin into a scam while it wasn't one before "it was practiced"?
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > don't understand what you mean with "Bitcoin as practiced" The paper and concept are fine. People marketing Bitcoin as an investment, et cetera, or more broadly selling anything related to it, are enabling a scam.
      - capableweb 4y ago
        Ok, so Bitcoin itself is not a scam, but people can use it to do scams? That makes sense and I'd agree with that. Author of the submission don't seem to think that's a useful distinction though, which seems slightly extreme.
        4y ago
revskill 4y ago
Then tell me at least one "non scam" business for me to see ? By your definition, all business needs to be scammy in some scene to make money, for survival. Proof is simple: Non of any existing business will tell you anything on why it's bad, nor why you should not use it. And by proof of contradition (Nothing is perfect), you got the proof. Meta won't tell you why it's bad for your psy health, no warning at all. Google won't tell you why it's bad for your privacy, or why its search result is so bad for you, because Ad result is shit. ...
medo-bear 4y ago
all money is a scam once people stop believing in it https://alphahistory.com/weimarrepublic/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/inflation.jpeg https://alphahistory.com/weimarrepublic/wp-content/uploads/2...
- jqpabc123 4y ago
  Those selling crypto are some of the biggest true fans and believers in fiat --- they never refuse to accept it in exchange for their electrons.
jqpabc123 4y ago
Not just a scam, it is the *ultimate* scam. There is no product being sold. People are being convinced to surrender working currency in exchange for a public database entry that records the fact they were duped.
- throwaway98797 4y ago
  working currency that has lost 95% of its value over the last 100 years (referencing inflation of US dollar since 1920)
  - jqpabc123 4y ago
    As opposed to bitcoin which lost 75% of it's value over 1 year. Other crypto has done even worse.
  - fellerts 4y ago
    Just wondering, what's your point? Are you saying that deflation is inherently a bad thing?
    - throwaway98797 4y ago
      thank you for engaging in good faith it’s more that using fluctuations is bad logic for both crypto and fiat being a user of US currency over the last 100 has been generally good for all involved i’d say the same is true for ethereum (i’m a bit eth maxi with small holdings of other crypto) if you are at all actually curious i wouldn’t read anything about crypto since the writing is so polarizing (crypto =scam or crypto is saving the world). neither is true but no amount of words will give conviction. download metamask, buy $500 of eth, swap it into usdc on uniswap, buy a shitty nft on opensea. then see if you like it. do not treat the $500 as investment. treat it like education.
  - epistemer 4y ago
    It is because you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to economics. A currency that doesn't inflate, doesn't get spent. It gets horded and stops acting as a medium of exchange. Exactly what we see with crypto and why the currency part is bullshit with it. It is just embarrassing how ignorant people into crypto are with economics. This is economics 101 stuff, most basic ideas.
leeroyjenkins11 4y ago
I just want currency that won't be arbitrarily inflated, is digital that some group of people can't control my spending. I just want something that is a unit of value that I can trade for things I want. And it doesn't need to be traced either, I don't want the government to know how much I spend on steak.
- bayesian_horse 4y ago
  Many government-backed currencies have been less volatile than bitcoin.
- 1PlayerOne 4y ago
  There is no such thing. And if you keep wanting such a thing, you will be scammed out of your money…
valdiorn 4y ago
Crypto absolutely has value, and the price of Bitcoin will never go to zero. NFTs are useful. That's because the value these things provide is money-laundering, bypassing of international financial regulations and tax fraud. Yeah that's a superb value proposition right there, and definitely something we want to keep free and available /s The current system is flawed in many, many ways, but none of it happened arbitrarily; the restrictions we have are the because malicious actors abused the system.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  Gambling. Crypto is globalized gambling. It's a money laundering vector, for sure, but for the same reasons crypto competes poorly in the transaction market it's close to a last resort for high-volume launderers.
  - TomGullen 4y ago
    Notably unregulated gambling available without oversight and also readily available to addicts and children. Helpful in smashing down that redundant bureaucratic red tape the gambling industry so desperately is in need of at the small price of destroying, debilitating or general increase in suffering in peoples lives.
  - jacknews 4y ago
    "Gambling. Crypto is globalized gambling." Completely and utterly unlike and in no way whatsoever similar, at all, to stock markets, futures exchanges, CFDs, options, CDOs, etc, etc, etc. Crypto is just a speculative digital asset. Sure it's been a playground for all kinds of scams and charlatanry, because there's no oversight, just as stock markets once were (and still can be in some areas eg pink sheets), but crypto is not a scam in itself.
    - astrange 4y ago
      > Completely and utterly unlike and in no way whatsoever similar, at all, to stock markets, futures exchanges, CFDs, options, CDOs, etc, etc, etc. Those things are backed by cash flows, which crypto isn't because noone ever wants their coin to be considered a security.
reverseCowGrill 4y ago
Yeah, it most likely is but the first half of the last decade I spent buying questionable stuff from markets was totally worth it and be fondly remembered for the rest of my life.
nyolfen 4y ago
important note about the author https://twitter.com/dystopiabreaker/status/1470126927818067969?lang=en https://twitter.com/dystopiabreaker/status/14701269278180679...
linuxftw 4y ago
Every now and then I read a press release from some organization about how they're using crypto or going to use crypto (aka blockchain) to solve some industry problem. For the life of me, I can't figure out how any of these ideas will ever bare any fruit. Does anyone know if companies are actually using blockchain for production, revenue generating business (real companies, not crypto companies)?
- nicholasbraker 4y ago
  Quant Networks. The token is used as a license key for using the Overledger network. Clients pay in FIAT, Quant network uses this to buy the token and secure the use of the Overldger functionality. Overledger enables interoperability between distributed ledgers (permissioned and permissionless like BTC, ETH etc.) in use by banks today. IMHO this is a legitimate and specific use case and very very rare in the crypto world. The company Quant Networks is a legitimate company.
  - linuxftw 4y ago
    > Overledger enables interoperability between distributed ledgers That sounds fancy, but who's actually using it in production? All these blockchain companies are highly self referential. It all sounds like 1) Build Block chain. 2)???? 3) Overledger.
    - nicholasbraker 4y ago
      Quant is a private company with NDA's limiting the freedom of communication they have with their partners. But LACCHAIN (https://www.lacchain.net/home?lang=en https://www.lacchain.net/home?lang=en) uses Overledger nodes (see the dashboard at https://dashboard.lacchain.net https://dashboard.lacchain.net) Oracle uses the Overledger product as part of their Oracle Blockchain proposition which is offered via Oracle Cloud. The use of their token is not a means to an end, it's only used for licensing of use of their software. Clients do not know nor care that it's a ERC-20 token, they pay their licenses in FIAT.
djha-skin 4y ago
OP's arguments: - Like indulgences, crypto made value out of thin air - Indulgences were a scam so crypto is a scam - Crypto doesn't fit with Keynesian economics and is therefore false I am not Catholic, but his tone implying that anyone who is religious is a fool feels more like an ad hominem attack than anything. As to the veracity of Keynesian economics, I am less than convinced he got everything right. That said, I am personally suspicious of crypto but I don't think it has no use just because it has no intrinsic value. We do not use paper dollars because of their material or their craftsmanship.
- aNoob7000 4y ago
  At this point, crypto is useless. Are people making money trading it? Yes. Can regular people do anything with it? No. With as much money that has been poured into crypto related businesses, I still can't easily send or transact business with it.
  - ernst_klim 4y ago
    > Can regular people do anything with it? No. It's used a lot in the third world. In Georgia you can buy a burger paying crypto via NFC terminal. I also know people who get their salaries in crypto. And it's used a lot for donating to opposition where it's illegal, like in most dictatorship.
    - A_Venom_Roll 4y ago
      Can you give some estimates about how much crypto is "used" in the third world, or at least give some sources for this statement?
      - ernst_klim 4y ago
        I have no estimates, only my experience from visiting these countries, but I found an article regarding Georgia [1]. But it's pretty widespread, Navalny, the main Putin opponent uses crypto as the main source of donations since all his accounts were frozen, Ukrainian army accepts donations in crypto, Belarus opposition uses crypto, hundreds of thousands of Russians used crypto to move their savings out of Russia, Iranians, Chinese and Venezuelans use it a lot too. [1] https://forbes.ge/en/georgia-a-new-crypto-hub-with-emerging-crypto-payments/ https://forbes.ge/en/georgia-a-new-crypto-hub-with-emerging-...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
birracerveza 4y ago
Then don't buy it. If it's a scam it will go to zero and be forgotten as it does not have any fundamental value, as you say. If it does have fundamental value, then it's not a scam. What a stupid hyperbole. What's the point of making yet another article blasting it with the same old tired arguments that have been continuously repeated ad nauseam for the last 12 years or so? I'm honestly surprised the article does not link to the Line Goes Up youtube video...
- birracerveza 4y ago
  Oh dear lord I just had a look at the rest of his blog. This guy has an unhealthy obsession against crypto, and paired with https://news.ycombinator.com/context?id=34693042 https://news.ycombinator.com/context?id=34693042 I'd say it's either sour grapes or has some kind of agenda, even if it's a personal vendetta. In any case he's not even worth the bytes used to receive the webpage.
- ur-whale 4y ago
  > Then don't buy it. Ah, but then what would he apply his savior complex to? There's only so many "worthy" causes in the world, and the market for self-righteous do-gooders is a very crowded one.
  - birracerveza 4y ago
    It's weird. As I noted in another comment, he's extremely vocal against crypto... yet he worked on it and apparently got destroyed by it. It's not savior complex, it's just sour grapes.
jillesvangurp 4y ago
You don't need crypto to run a scam. Financial scams are as old as money is. The fallacy in this argument is that there's something special in crypto that makes this more likely to happen. There isn't. In fact, you could argue that the enormous activity of scammers in this space actually points to some inherent qualities that might be useful beyond just running ponzi schemes and other scams. One of these qualities is that scammers are unusually aware and mindful that they might get robbed by people equally untrustworthy on the same platforms that they use. So, the notion that that isn't happening on popular blockchain platforms is useful to them, and others. Tamper proof ledgers are useful for all sorts of things. The history of money is basically increasingly elaborate measures to prevent theft, forgeries, and other abuse. People trying to abuse the system are a constant. Blockchains and other cryptographic tools are just that: tools. I expect banks to gradually incorporate these tools into what they do. That's already happening. E.g. China rolled out the the e-yuan currency last year. Not a decentralized blockchain but it obviously incorporates some of the technology. Other countries are doing similar things.
- fredley 4y ago
  > The fallacy in this argument is that there's something special in crypto that makes this more likely to happen. I think this goes without saying: money and financial systems are regulated—to some degree—everywhere in the World. They are regulated by Governments, and there are real penalties for evading those regulations and getting caught. Many of these regulations were put in place to prevent the kind of shenanigans that is commonplace in crypto. In crypto, by design, there is no regulation, nor is it really possible. This is the something that's special about crypto.
  - danaris 4y ago
    > In crypto, by design, there is no regulation, nor is it really possible. That's demonstrably untrue—at least, that it's not possible. (I'm perfectly willing to believe it was designed to be unregulatable; it's just that, as usual, programmers echo-chambering at each other about how they think the law works didn't actually take into account how the law really works.) Crypto is becoming regulated more and more as time goes on. There's nothing special and magical about it; it was just new, and with the US Congress hopelessly dysfunctional, it was not hard to predict that it would take some time for them to actually catch up and start doing something about it.
nebulous1 4y ago
I don't really understand people trying to defend absurd positions like this. What's even the point? It doesn't seem like it's necessary for this to be true if you want to argue that crypto "should" be eliminated, all you need to do is argue that it's decisively more bad than good. When somebody makes weak arguments like this I'm just going to ignore their thoughts in the future because they've demonstrated that they have faulty reasoning. Crypto is awash in scams. On top of the scams you have people who are not intentionally scamming but are misguided and will end up doing harm to others and/or themselves. On top of that there is crypto that could genuinely work under certain circumstances (ie have a use-case that provides value to its users without significantly adversely affecting others).
- cinntaile 4y ago
  Crypto takedowns are basically what this guy does. [0] Just like you have the religious crypto evangelists, you have the religious anti-crypto people. This is about feelings, not reason so that's why the arguments tend to be a bit far-fetched/weak. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=stephendiehl.com https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=stephendiehl.com
- louwrentius 4y ago
  > On top of that there is crypto that could genuinely work under certain circumstances (ie have a use-case that provides value to its users without significantly adversely affecting others). To me personally, this is the biggest lie there is about crypto/ blockchain. To this day no application has been identified that could not be better solved with existing tech. The whole crypto space seems to be a solution in search of a legitimate problem to solve. (Plenty of illegitimate use cases sure)
- steego 4y ago
  Let’s not hand wave: Can you actually spell out the use-cases that provide value to its users without significantly adversely affecting others? The trouble with crypto is most of the use-cases it claims to solve, either aren’t solved, or they’re often better solved with more efficient and time-tested solutions. So, let’s get specific and jump into the technical details of specific use cases. What use-cases does crypto solve?
qwerty456127 4y ago
I use cryptocurrencies to pay for services where I want to stay anonymous for no ill/illegal reason. I just don't feel comfortable being watched wherever I go and whatever I do even if I don't do anything evil.
- hcurtiss 4y ago
  This entire comment section seems premised on this idea that crypto is useful because it's anonymous. But with the exception of a couple tokens like Monero and Zcash, which are rarely used, crypto is significantly LESS anonymous than cash. There's a reason it's called a public ledger. So odd.
  - danuker 4y ago
    Cash is much more expensive to transact in. Bitcoin is more private than bank/credit card transfers even if you don't try to hide your identity, because it costs more to follow your trail (especially if you bought it from a natural person rather than a KYC centralized exchange). But it is pretty convenient, as it can be done fully online.
  - leesalminen 4y ago
    Cash can only be used anonymously in-person. Lots of commerce happens virtually today over the internet. Using cash to pay for digital goods/services is not a sustainable solution. Sure, you can mail an envelope with cash for a very small number of online services. But, the US government OCRs the return+to address on every letter in the country. So, even your envelope with cash is being traced. And there's the risk of the letter being lost/stolen. There's also a carbon footprint involved in sending physical letters around the globe on cars/planes.
  - qwerty456127 4y ago
    Sure, I use Monero, Zcash and mixers. I absolutely can't imagine using BitCoin or similar currencies the plain way so everybody would see precisely where and when, for how much and, indirectly, what I buy - this seems insane, do people really do this? The only problem still making me feel slightly uncomfortable is I don't understand how do Monero and Zcash achieve anonymity, how is it possible to transfer money without registering who (whose wallet) pays who. Ideally you should understand how do your tools work. But I don't care enough to dedicate time to study this.
ant1oz 4y ago
Oh my god, this guy is the ultimate troll,!!! Listen, have you ever observed a troll writing a book? Really? Currency is a scam. You get paid in paper, pay taxes on it, which gets stolen( sorry in edged) in corrupted corps, with a debt system where you are just a slave of your mortgage - unless you're a clever troll, and you bought 10btc 10 years ago, write a book to put the price down, while at the same time, being the most biased possible to trigger HN readers in the hope of getting a Google page rank.... Pathetic.
viktorcode 4y ago
Let me just point out how incredibly poor the word "scam" is defined in that dictionary. By that literal definition a lot of different things become scams because they are "clever", dishonest and are about making money.
- cirgue 4y ago
  “Dishonest and profitable” is a usable definition of fraud. What’s the issue here?
detrites 4y ago
Some here are pathetically-misinformed regarding crypto's utility and social benefits. Read the Latin America section of Chainalysis 2022 report (Pgs. 19 - 27) before claiming "it's all a scam" (and so spreading mis-information): https://go.chainalysis.com/rs/503-FAP-074/images/2022-Geography-of-Cryptocurrency.pdf https://go.chainalysis.com/rs/503-FAP-074/images/2022-Geogra... For those not aware, the company that produced this report, Chainalysis, actively aids prosecution of illegality in the crypto space, acting as primary advisors to the FBI, IRS etc. They may just know what they're talking about: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chainalysis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chainalysis
- bheadmaster 4y ago
  > and so spreading mis-information Who died and made you the Minister of Truth?
  - detrites 4y ago
    Truth did.
    - bheadmaster 4y ago
      Meaningless comment pretending to be deep.
      - detrites 4y ago
        You said it.
        bheadmaster 4y ago
        Pointless comment written just to have the last word.
- yao420 4y ago
  As a Latin American the largest uptake I see is among criminal groups for money laundering.[0] But with an open mind I read the section you called out and I have several issues. The first is that the report doesn’t actually discuss or show the numbers. The country reporting only talks about inflation in those countries and percentage of transactions, how much volume and coins are these countries actually moving? They have the stats, but know it’s all wash trading. Funny how ‘wash trading’ or even ‘money laundering’ doesn’t even make it I to the report. Really makes the branding of building trust in blockchains laughable. Second this report is very outdated. This is seen in the Mexico section; it talks about inflation numbers and the potential for remittances. It even mentions coinbase’s program which was shutdown in sept 22 for lack of usage (as in a couple hundred bucks a week). [0] https://www.reuters.com/article/mexico-bitcoin/insight-latin-american-crime-cartels-turn-to-crypto-to-clean-up-their-cash-idUSL1N2IJ01D https://www.reuters.com/article/mexico-bitcoin/insight-latin...
josh2600 4y ago
Society is also a scam if you view it through this lens. All innovation, all technology can be wielded for good or for evil. With fire anyone can burn a building or cook a steak. I like to find the people who are using technology to help others. Let's make stuff to amplify them.
ur-whale 4y ago
Please stop giving a pulpit to this effing fanatic. Diehl is not rational and utterly biased (he's party to a startup that will fail if any blockhain type tech. becomes popular).
grapesurgeon 4y ago
[dead]
baryphonic 4y ago
> However, crypto represents a divergence entirely from a Keynesian worldview in that it has created this bizarre simulacrum of markets with all the trappings and veneer of finance but which has no pretense of being tethered to the economic problem at all. No goods, services or resources are being exchanged. Crypto is a Keynesian beauty contest for zero-sum get-rich-quick schemes. I call it the nothingness game, a bizarre contest in which participants continuously punt on get-rich-quick schemes for lumps of nothing based on their perception of which lump of nothing others believe is the most attractive. What a bizarre argument. Keynes wrote in the 1920s and 30s, so according to Diehl, did economics and finance not exist prior to Keynes? Was it all just a simulacrum until Keynes showed up and whipped out his General Theory? The map is not the territory. This isn't even factually true. Crypto is in fact used in the real economy of places that have such bad monetary systems that crypto is much more stable. Look at Venezuela or even Ukraine and how much crypto is used there because the formal financial system is shambolic. Crypto scams may be more common in the developed world where formal institutions are decent enough that the marginal cost of using crypto in the real economy is just too high compared to the legacy financial system.
- jhbadger 4y ago
  The US dollar is pretty much the de facto currency of places where the official currency is unstable/distrusted. Places like El Salvador made a big deal of adopting Bitcoin, but it was mostly smoke and mirrors.
  - baryphonic 4y ago
    Fair enough, but I didn't mention El Salvador. Moving dollars in and out of authoritarian or war-torn countries isn't trivial. That's why I mentioned Venezuela and Ukraine.[0] Russia itself also has a significant crypto economy. None of this is to say there isn't demand for dollars in those places, just that supply of dollars is not exactly abundant. Thus, they go to crypto. That's the argument. [0] https://www.elliptic.co/blog/live-updates-millions-in-crypto-crowdfunded-for-the-ukrainian-military https://www.elliptic.co/blog/live-updates-millions-in-crypto...
atdrummond 4y ago
Be grateful you live in the EU or the US and don’t need crypto. It has been a major lifeline for my family and friends in Lebanon and Venezuela, both of which lack fully functioning financial services. I can send Bitcoin just fine though!
- louwrentius 4y ago
  That is not really a vindication of crypto, it’s just an extra condemnation of what is happening in Lebanon and Venezuela. And although it may help individuals it is not a sustainable solution to the issues in those countries. 99.99% of crypto is unsustainable speculation on a game of musical chairs or outright scams / ransomware. If you look at the entire picture, crypto has such a negative impact on this world. It makes me sad.
  - capableweb 4y ago
    > although it may help individuals it is not a sustainable solution to the issues in those countries Sometimes what you need are not "sustainable solutions", that's something you can afford when you are not struggling daily just to stay alive. Sometimes you just need something that solves the problem right now, damned by "sustainability". Just like most people in poverty don't give a fuck about climate change, there are so many other problems on their mind about their daily life, that there is no space to focus on "bigger problems" or "sustainability", it's just about surviving and finding ways around whatever problem arises.
    - louwrentius 4y ago
      If people in countries like Libanon or Venezuela have to survive by “dumping a barrel of oil each day in the ocean”, and this is basically the only “legitimate” use case for “oil” this is clearly not a vindication for the existence of oil. It’s just all bad, there is no justification for “oil” to exist.
      - capableweb 4y ago
nic_wilson 4y ago
It may have already been noted elsewhere but it seems important to note that the author was (is?) the CTO of private blockchain start up and choosing to not disclose this in any of his crypto criticism seems very dishonest https://twitter.com/dystopiabreaker/status/1470126927818067969 https://twitter.com/dystopiabreaker/status/14701269278180679...
- rvz 4y ago
  I guess it would be embarrassing for him to admit that he tried to compete against Ethereum after Cardano destroyed his private blockchain startup. Stephen Diehl is also no better than the crypto maximalists with his extreme absolutism. You won't see him debate and test his arguments with a balanced panel discussion so that you can easily see how extreme his arguments are. He has a book to sell and is full time, 24/7 tweeting the 'all of crypto is scam' chorus. Not all cryptocurrencies, tokens will survive, but only a select few of them and their technologies will still be around to be used under regulations.
  - ur-whale 4y ago
    > I guess it would be embarrassing for him to admit that he tried to compete against Ethereum after Cardano destroyed his private blockchain startup. Given the level of Rage Against The Crypto ™ displayed, that's pretty much implicit.
  - 411111111111111 4y ago
    > Not all cryptocurrencies, tokens will survive, but only a select few of them and their technologies will still be around to be used under regulations. No chance in hell. The only sustained market this technology has are illegal transactions/black market. To begin with: a regulated Blockchain is an oxymoron. The technology ceases to have any meaning if the government has the ability to regulate the chain. They'd be able be more effective with regular acid databases and certificates for the web of trust, like they've been doing for a very long time now. You be combining the downsides of Blockchain with the downsides of traditional banking, gaining only the weaknesses of both.
unity1001 4y ago
Crypto enables DAOs. For the first time in human history, large scale financial and economic organization for the general public is possible. And its possible to do it in a transparent manner. In 'normal' life this kind of organization, investment, company creation and management et al are all gated behind legal complications and requirements of minimum capital and many others. Even when a major movement succeeds in setting up a foundation, the running of it is complicated, non-transparent and anti-democratic. Even with companies it is the same - for the ordinary person creating or participating in a company is difficult and it requires understanding legal implications and responsibilities. Even if you do, there are various legal and economic barriers to investing and participating in such large companies. With DAOs, everything is in broad daylight - depending on how the DAO is set up of course. But any properly set up DAO gives the power to the people in taking up the culture that we created in Open Source Software movement up a notch - by enabling organized economic movements. That DAO which tried to buy the US constition failed. There was no way a new, emergent, new way of doing things could gather enough money in enough time to overcome the already aggregated private capital that it competed with. But it proved something - for the first time in history, such things are possible. Economic organization for the masses. Those who criticize crypto seem to have scarce awareness, leave aside understanding of what DAOs represent, and what is happening in DAO space. Of course, its hard to blame people - some understanding of at least Early Modern human history, economic systems and organization patterns and the development of democracy would be required to understand how big a change DAOs are. And that requires an ample interest in history itself.
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bayesian_horse 4y ago
In my opinion this is not quite true, because there's a basic form of "investment" scheme going on. People exchange value (money, energy) for some kind of token, expecting to get some value back. They may actually be satisfied with getting only a fraction back in many cases (money laundering...). Cryptocurrencies do have some non-scam value because they fulfill the technical end of such a belief based value store. Don't get me wrong. Plenty of scams in that business...
gloosx 4y ago
I disagree with this, it seems to me that if you follow author's logic you can call US dollar scam too - a lot of it's value is same thin air called "debt"?. The problem with argumentation and particulary with church comparison is that in order for something to be called scam, as per definition provided in the article, someone must be there who planned it, who gets all the profits. But crypto has no central entity, no final scammer, there are just programmatic rules - and crystal transparency, everyone is free to do whatever fits in this paradigm, and this is future of currency
- Felmioytfr 4y ago
  Houses are not nothing. You don't just get into debt without anything on the other side
  - gloosx 4y ago
    Still, debt is money created out of thin air, with best hopes that air is not so thin. There were number of events where debt was looking secure, but in fact it was all thin air, and the global economy followed with a crash. It shouldn't happen if you really don't get into debt without anything on the other side, yet, it happens?
    - Felmioytfr 4y ago
      People literally now buy a digital coin and suddenly uncontrolled new value is created. Whatever we have without crypto is different.
- b3nji 4y ago
  Some would go far as to say all fiat currency is a total scam. "Fake money", as I think Robert T. Kiyosaki, author of "Rich Dad Poor Dad" describes it.
  - DonHopkins 4y ago
    So a totally fake and bankrupt scammer and anti-vax spammer who advises investing in MLM scams and who is aptly described as a racist idiot Trump supporter himself describes all fiat currency as a total scam and "fake money", huh? Do you also have high praise for the book he wrote with Donald J Trump about "Why We Want You to Be Rich?" Who you choose to worship and parrot says so much about you and the quality of your advice and beliefs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_We_Want_You_to_Be_Rich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_We_Want_You_to_Be_Rich >The Intercept wrote critically of the book's advice, including the recommendation by Trump and Kiyosaki to invest in multi-level marketing companies, asserting instead that these are harmful pyramid schemes.[1] The Intercept contrasted assertions in the book with promises by Trump during his 2016 campaign for president, writing Trump's later views were contradictory with the work.[1] San Antonio Express-News was critical of the contradictory advice imparted in the book, writing, "Trump and Kiyosaki argued that because they were already rich, they had no need to make more money, all the while cashing in on the very books that said so."[8] The paper marveled at the reaction among consumers, "Fans responded to this kind of contradiction by praising both the authors' earlier financial success and their shrewdness in taking advantage of the new opportunity to sell."[8] https://thecollegeinvestor.com/4726/ultimate-hypocrite-robert-kiyosaki-companys- https://thecollegeinvestor.com/4726/ultimate-hypocrite-rober... >The Ultimate Hypocrite: Robert Kiyosaki and His Company’s Bankruptcy >A story came across the news this weekend about Robert Kiyosaki, the author of Rich Dad, Poor Dad, and how his company went bankrupt last month. Basically, the company didn’t pay the proper royalties on its seminars, and when they lost in court, they didn’t have enough money to pay at all. It wasn’t a personal bankruptcy, rather, a corporate bankruptcy. However, a corporation with money should be able to pay up for a minor royalty dispute (only $23 million compared to $400+ million in revenues). And when your name is attached to a company, and your business is built around creating wealth, the word bankruptcy associated with it usually isn’t a good thing. >However minor you may consider it, I find it appalling as a personal finance writer. This guy made a living on selling “his story” and encouraging others to fork out tons of money to hear it. In the end, the story crumbles, and it just makes him a hypocrite. https://www.theroot.com/the-rich-dad-poor-dad-guy-is-a-racist-idiot-trump-supp-1844119565 https://www.theroot.com/the-rich-dad-poor-dad-guy-is-a-racis... >The Rich Dad Poor Dad Guy Is a Racist, Idiot Trump Supporter So Please STFU About That Shitty Book Forever >People who pray at this altar are specifically susceptible to the sort of symbiotic grift that has made Robert Kiyosaki a rich man. >If you’ve never heard of Robert Kiyosaki or his Rich Dad Poor Dad empire of financial advice, I want you to stop reading this, I want you to get on your knees, and I want you to thank God for granting you such luck. You are blessed. You are highly favored. Unfortunately, many of us are not as fortunate, as this book exists in the curricula of Shit Frequently Cited by Douchebags Who Say Dumb Shit Like “I’ll Sleep When I Die” and “Rise and Grind” and “We Need Black-Owned Prisons.” >If you ask someone to name their favorite reads, and they list this or The Art of War or The 48 Laws of Power, it’s a foolproof tell of a money-centered morality—a devotion based on the belief that people with money are better than those without it. Not wealthier or more privileged or provided more opportunity to live a better life, but inherently smarter, harder-working, less impulsive, and more trustworthy. It doesn’t matter how you got the money, or who you stole from (or killed) to have it. If you have it, you’re God. >People who pray at this altar are specifically susceptible to the sort of symbiotic grift that has made Robert Kiyosaki a rich man. (Well, rich-ish.) He convinces you to buy a book with Fisher-Price financial advice, and then encourages you to spread the gospel of grift to others—which creates the sort of following that allows him to charge tens of thousands for Matryoshka doll-constructed seminars where he delivers gems like “invest in things” and “dimes are worth twice as much as nickels.” [...Kiyosaki's ranting racist anti-vax pro-trump plannedemic conspiracy theory tweets redacted...] >THIS IS YOUR FINANCIAL ADVICE KING??? This guy??? Darth Dale Carnegie is your money mentor??? This is the guy who Danny Ocean steals shit from in movies. I wouldn’t trust this man to crack an egg. >If this information upsets you, and you find yourself in dire need of a new source for surefire financial advice, don’t fret! I got you! It even remixes Rich Dad Poor Dad. You ready for it? Ok, here it comes: >1. Have a rich dad. >Thank you for attending my seminar. That will be $17,000. I take Cash App and Venmo.
davidguetta 4y ago
Money not based on gold standard, and which can be printed anytime the government feels like it, is also a scam. However when many people agree of a price at a given time, anything, including a scam, can in turn become money.
shagymoe 4y ago
I mostly agree with this article about "crypto". Bitcoin is not crypto. In any case, you could make similar arguments about banks and the "Federal" Reserve being scams. In fact, quite a few well regarded politicians of old made exactly those arguments. The implicit agreement in this particular argument is that the scam we've accepted is somehow better.
- colesantiago 4y ago
  Bitcoin IS crypto. Please stop this delusional thinking trying to separate them, we both know that all of crypto is full speculation and you know it. There is no difference, it doesn't matter if it was 'first'.
strictlymomo 4y ago
Why am I not surprised this is tradfi nerd extraordinaire Stephen Diehl.
Geee 4y ago
Almost all money is a scam. People don't typically realize that 'making money from thin air' is the oldest of all scams. In history books they tell that people used salt, animal furs, shells etc. as money. What's forgotten is that there was always a 'bro' who shilled these new forms of money to other people. This bro had found a way to produce these cheaply and could get rich. Eventually people realized this scam and moved onto rare metals which can't be produced from thin air, without work. However, these were minted into standard coinage, and eventually they were clipped or mixed with cheaper metals. Again, someone found a way to scam. Next, we moved onto gold-backed paper money and then to fiat currency, and yet again the scamming continues, even easier than before. They've even made the scamming official, by mandating the 2% inflation target.
- mmcnl 4y ago
  Money is not a scam at all. That's a ridiculous claim. I can use money to purchase goods and services. Not a scam. I can't use crypto to purchase goods and services. Yes a scam. Simple.
righttoolforjob 4y ago
Slightly related. The Reddit subforum for Bitcoin is managed by people supporting the scam and they very actively promote it and will ban any opposition. I think that should be illegal.
- shagie 4y ago
  While the "Reddit's /r/{something} is supported by people with a financial interest in {something}" can be distasteful, under what theory of law would or should it be made illegal?
  - righttoolforjob 4y ago
    Corruption? Scam? I don't know which universal theory of law you are talking about, but if you are actively lying or hiding information to further your own interests then that surely could and should be illegal. You'll have to construct this theory of yours yourself though.
    - shagie 4y ago
      If you are claiming that they are acting fraudulently or acting as financial advisors and misrepresenting information... that's already a thing. If you think its a boiler room scheme - that's already illegal to. If you are saying that someone with some stock in AAPL and would be pleased if it went up can't be a mod of /r/apple and should have criminal liability for moderating a community's activity (and would likely ban people who consistently post 'Apple is bad, buy Dell instead' or 'Avoid apple - Steve Jobs was a bad man') then you're suggesting a different thing that would be harder (in my eyes) to argue for.
friend_and_foe 4y ago
How can a blanket statement be core to your philosophy? If a blanket objective claim is core to your belief system, it's not a philosophy, it's an ideology. Which is fine, but call it what it is. Also, he says most counterarguments are in bad faith. Foes that mean some aren't? Wouldn't refusal to address these good faith claims mean you're arguing in bad faith as well?
pfoof 4y ago
Crypto is just as scam as US dollar. A try of giving it into "control of the people". But Satoshi overestimated human nature.
Laurenz1337 4y ago
I gotta disagree with this author on the whole "no intrinsic value" thing when it comes to crypto. Sure, it's true that cryptocurrencies aren't physical assets like gold or silver, but that doesn't mean they don't have value. People are willing to pay money for them, which gives them value. It's supply and demand, plain and simple. Plus, with blockchain technology, crypto is much more secure and transparent compared to traditional forms of currency. So don't be so quick to dismiss it as just entries in a database created out of thin air. There's definitely more to it than that.

238 points by cpa 4y ago

"Every day I write something about crypto to the nature of “crypto is all a scam”" Yet he still write daily about Crypto. Very weird. Whoever wanted to be convinced that is a scam should be convinced by now, everyone else just want to hold some coins.

senttoschool 4y ago
everyone else just want to hold some coins. Until those people inevitably get rug pulled, scammed, ponzied. Then they will be convinced. Actually, most people who "hold some coins" know 99.99% of crypto is a scam but they still do it anyways in hopes of making money.
- mdrzn 4y ago
  So what is the utility in writing the same articles and screaming the same points over and over again, to those who are still holding coins, and are clearly not interested in selling because "it might go to zero"? "You're an idiot, it's a scam, it's a ponzi, why are you still holding????" Live and let live.
  - cmrdporcupine 4y ago
    Because one sees the damage to individuals and society, and wants to try to help to mitigate it? Not selfish enough of an explanation?
    - ur-whale 4y ago
      >Not selfish enough of an explanation? Selfish isn't the word I would use, no. Self-righteous and do-gooder do come to mind quite quickly though.
      - DonHopkins 4y ago
        What's wrong with annoying the do-badders and their shills?
  - DonHopkins 4y ago
    Because it makes the other cockroaches come out of the woodwork and reveal themselves by attacking him for speaking the truth.
simplotek 4y ago
> Whoever wanted to be convinced that is a scam should be convinced by now, everyone else just want to hold some coins. In other words, "please don't scare away the remaining suckers."
deleted 4y ago
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ur-whale 4y ago
> Very weird. Not weird. He found a way to make himself sound important on the internets and therefore clings to it.

LatteLazy 4y ago

>Similarly, the “crypto as currency” and “crypto as investment” narratives have been thoroughly debunked because the truth value of these statements is predicated on factual claims that are demonstrably falsifiable. It must be nice to be able to just state something is thoroughly debunked and not have to give any evidence, despite billions of people not knowing, and be magically right...

simplotek 4y ago
> It must be nice to be able to just state something is thoroughly debunked and not have to give any evidence (...) That's quite the amusing comment, given the fact that crypto-bros reiterate that crypto is somehow money in spite of if repeatedly failing each and every single trait that makes something a currency. Now, when someone points out that fact, here we are with a newfound passion for argumentative formalities as if you can make this fact go away by petitioning the ref.
- LatteLazy 4y ago
  There are 2 really amusing things here: * that so many people think crypto is either perfect or totally evil and admit no middle ground. * that both groups constantly claim their (rather extremist) views are facts but refuse to substantiate them. I wonder how long it will take for people to agree that crypto neither cures cancer nor causes it...
  - afarrell 4y ago
    I'm still wondering if there is good evidence that crypto is useful for Venezuelan economic refugees. I imagine such evidence is hard to find publicly because removing the obscurity would raise the probability that a friend of Maduro uses it against such refugees.
  - roody15 4y ago
    I agree think honestly there is room for middle ground here. Crypto didn’t stop humans from being humans. There are always people trying to make a quick an easy dollar. The tech really has little do with this aspect of human behavior.

nivenkos 4y ago

The worst thing is the terrible incentives it's created by making it so easy for people to exploit free CPU capacity, and transfer money with no monitoring for fraud or ability to reverse it. So no-one can offer free/demo tier CPU access anymore e.g. on low-end box VMs, ISP shell servers, etc. Likewise any sort of interaction with strangers get absolutely bombarded with fake accounts pushing crypto scams - second-hand sales, dating apps, meetups, pen pals, language exchanges, property listings, job boards, etc., there was always spam before but it was harder to directly monetise. I hope it all gets banned soon. If we can ban Russia from SWIFT, we can do the same to all accounts that ever have transactions with known cryptocurrency exchanges, and refer their owners to the local tax authorities for auditing, etc.

jjtheblunt 4y ago
Isn’t the public ledger extreme monitoring, when a bit of correlating of addresses is layered on? I mean aren’t there even services used by law enforcement for such?
- nivenkos 4y ago
  But many exchanges dodge KYC so you can't tie an address to a person necessarily.
  - jjtheblunt 4y ago
    KYC is a legal requirement, so to your point i think you’re saying exchanges outside the law?

patchtopic 4y ago

this garbage is getting really tedious and repetitive. it's as bad as the "cryptobros" stuff

ShowalkKama 4y ago

I'd like to remind the readers that some people use crypto as a payment method and do not speculate. As far as I know there is no alternative with the same level of convinience that crypto provide (KYC-less and fast payments to anyone in the world with just one secret). Remember that next time you suggest something among the lines of "crypto should be made illegal".

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> no alternative with the same level of convinience that crypto provide (KYC-less There is a legitimate argument for creating KYC-light rails for small global transfers. That argument is not advanced by crypto's wanton criminality.
- rom-antics 4y ago
  > There is a legitimate argument for creating KYC-light rails for small global transfers Then let's do it! I keep hearing that we "should" fix regulation or we "should" improve global transfers. Competition spurs innovation. The global financial hegemony can now consider themselves competed against. The proper move is not to ban your competition, the proper move is to build a better product. If, for every citizen in every country on earth, we fix regulations, build efficient payment rails, solve corruption, and stop printing money and causing hyperinflation, crypto truly will have no use case and will quickly go to 0. I'd love to see that happen. Your move, incumbents.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > Competition spurs innovation. The global financial hegemony can now consider themselves competed against This isn’t how politics works. Crypto threw a flaming lint ball of fraud at the rich world. Pleading that it’s also helping the disenfranchised doesn’t help advance a KYC-light discussion as much as a regulatory-vacuum one. It’s easy to ban (or heavily tax and erect stricter KYC guardrails at the interfaces between crypto and the fiat and real economies, what I’m concluding is the best middle path) and punt the “what did we learn” bit to a committee with a few years to write a report. Especially when the beneficiaries don’t vote for you.

capableweb 4y ago

> scam /skæm/ (noun): a clever and dishonest plan for making money This fits many projects in the cryptocurrency space. But what about the first successful cryptocurrency Bitcoin? Was it dishonest? What about Ethereum, is it also dishonest? Seems like yes, there are lots of scams in cryptocurrency. But there is also projects that are not, so in the end, the title ends up being clickbait, which I (just like you) fell for...

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> Bitcoin? Was it dishonest? Bitcoin per se, no. Bitcoin as practiced, yes. Broadly brushed, there are legitimate academic questions in crypto/blockchains/web3. The moment the work is remunerated for something other than its intellectual value, however, it's fair to revoke the benefit of doubt.
- capableweb 4y ago
  > Bitcoin per se, no. Bitcoin as practiced, yes. I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean with "Bitcoin as practiced". "Bitcoin as practiced" made Bitcoin into a scam while it wasn't one before "it was practiced"?
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > don't understand what you mean with "Bitcoin as practiced" The paper and concept are fine. People marketing Bitcoin as an investment, et cetera, or more broadly selling anything related to it, are enabling a scam.
    - capableweb 4y ago
      Ok, so Bitcoin itself is not a scam, but people can use it to do scams? That makes sense and I'd agree with that. Author of the submission don't seem to think that's a useful distinction though, which seems slightly extreme.
      - 4y ago

revskill 4y ago

Then tell me at least one "non scam" business for me to see ? By your definition, all business needs to be scammy in some scene to make money, for survival. Proof is simple: Non of any existing business will tell you anything on why it's bad, nor why you should not use it. And by proof of contradition (Nothing is perfect), you got the proof. Meta won't tell you why it's bad for your psy health, no warning at all. Google won't tell you why it's bad for your privacy, or why its search result is so bad for you, because Ad result is shit. ...

medo-bear 4y ago

all money is a scam once people stop believing in it https://alphahistory.com/weimarrepublic/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/inflation.jpeg https://alphahistory.com/weimarrepublic/wp-content/uploads/2...

jqpabc123 4y ago
Those selling crypto are some of the biggest true fans and believers in fiat --- they never refuse to accept it in exchange for their electrons.

jqpabc123 4y ago

Not just a scam, it is the *ultimate* scam. There is no product being sold. People are being convinced to surrender working currency in exchange for a public database entry that records the fact they were duped.

throwaway98797 4y ago
working currency that has lost 95% of its value over the last 100 years (referencing inflation of US dollar since 1920)
- jqpabc123 4y ago
  As opposed to bitcoin which lost 75% of it's value over 1 year. Other crypto has done even worse.
- fellerts 4y ago
  Just wondering, what's your point? Are you saying that deflation is inherently a bad thing?
  - throwaway98797 4y ago
    thank you for engaging in good faith it’s more that using fluctuations is bad logic for both crypto and fiat being a user of US currency over the last 100 has been generally good for all involved i’d say the same is true for ethereum (i’m a bit eth maxi with small holdings of other crypto) if you are at all actually curious i wouldn’t read anything about crypto since the writing is so polarizing (crypto =scam or crypto is saving the world). neither is true but no amount of words will give conviction. download metamask, buy $500 of eth, swap it into usdc on uniswap, buy a shitty nft on opensea. then see if you like it. do not treat the $500 as investment. treat it like education.
- epistemer 4y ago
  It is because you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to economics. A currency that doesn't inflate, doesn't get spent. It gets horded and stops acting as a medium of exchange. Exactly what we see with crypto and why the currency part is bullshit with it. It is just embarrassing how ignorant people into crypto are with economics. This is economics 101 stuff, most basic ideas.

leeroyjenkins11 4y ago

I just want currency that won't be arbitrarily inflated, is digital that some group of people can't control my spending. I just want something that is a unit of value that I can trade for things I want. And it doesn't need to be traced either, I don't want the government to know how much I spend on steak.

bayesian_horse 4y ago
Many government-backed currencies have been less volatile than bitcoin.
1PlayerOne 4y ago
There is no such thing. And if you keep wanting such a thing, you will be scammed out of your money…

valdiorn 4y ago

Crypto absolutely has value, and the price of Bitcoin will never go to zero. NFTs are useful. That's because the value these things provide is money-laundering, bypassing of international financial regulations and tax fraud. Yeah that's a superb value proposition right there, and definitely something we want to keep free and available /s The current system is flawed in many, many ways, but none of it happened arbitrarily; the restrictions we have are the because malicious actors abused the system.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
Gambling. Crypto is globalized gambling. It's a money laundering vector, for sure, but for the same reasons crypto competes poorly in the transaction market it's close to a last resort for high-volume launderers.
- TomGullen 4y ago
  Notably unregulated gambling available without oversight and also readily available to addicts and children. Helpful in smashing down that redundant bureaucratic red tape the gambling industry so desperately is in need of at the small price of destroying, debilitating or general increase in suffering in peoples lives.
- jacknews 4y ago
  "Gambling. Crypto is globalized gambling." Completely and utterly unlike and in no way whatsoever similar, at all, to stock markets, futures exchanges, CFDs, options, CDOs, etc, etc, etc. Crypto is just a speculative digital asset. Sure it's been a playground for all kinds of scams and charlatanry, because there's no oversight, just as stock markets once were (and still can be in some areas eg pink sheets), but crypto is not a scam in itself.
  - astrange 4y ago
    > Completely and utterly unlike and in no way whatsoever similar, at all, to stock markets, futures exchanges, CFDs, options, CDOs, etc, etc, etc. Those things are backed by cash flows, which crypto isn't because noone ever wants their coin to be considered a security.

reverseCowGrill 4y ago

Yeah, it most likely is but the first half of the last decade I spent buying questionable stuff from markets was totally worth it and be fondly remembered for the rest of my life.

nyolfen 4y ago

important note about the author https://twitter.com/dystopiabreaker/status/1470126927818067969?lang=en https://twitter.com/dystopiabreaker/status/14701269278180679...

linuxftw 4y ago

Every now and then I read a press release from some organization about how they're using crypto or going to use crypto (aka blockchain) to solve some industry problem. For the life of me, I can't figure out how any of these ideas will ever bare any fruit. Does anyone know if companies are actually using blockchain for production, revenue generating business (real companies, not crypto companies)?

nicholasbraker 4y ago
Quant Networks. The token is used as a license key for using the Overledger network. Clients pay in FIAT, Quant network uses this to buy the token and secure the use of the Overldger functionality. Overledger enables interoperability between distributed ledgers (permissioned and permissionless like BTC, ETH etc.) in use by banks today. IMHO this is a legitimate and specific use case and very very rare in the crypto world. The company Quant Networks is a legitimate company.
- linuxftw 4y ago
  > Overledger enables interoperability between distributed ledgers That sounds fancy, but who's actually using it in production? All these blockchain companies are highly self referential. It all sounds like 1) Build Block chain. 2)???? 3) Overledger.
  - nicholasbraker 4y ago
    Quant is a private company with NDA's limiting the freedom of communication they have with their partners. But LACCHAIN (https://www.lacchain.net/home?lang=en https://www.lacchain.net/home?lang=en) uses Overledger nodes (see the dashboard at https://dashboard.lacchain.net https://dashboard.lacchain.net) Oracle uses the Overledger product as part of their Oracle Blockchain proposition which is offered via Oracle Cloud. The use of their token is not a means to an end, it's only used for licensing of use of their software. Clients do not know nor care that it's a ERC-20 token, they pay their licenses in FIAT.

djha-skin 4y ago

OP's arguments: - Like indulgences, crypto made value out of thin air - Indulgences were a scam so crypto is a scam - Crypto doesn't fit with Keynesian economics and is therefore false I am not Catholic, but his tone implying that anyone who is religious is a fool feels more like an ad hominem attack than anything. As to the veracity of Keynesian economics, I am less than convinced he got everything right. That said, I am personally suspicious of crypto but I don't think it has no use just because it has no intrinsic value. We do not use paper dollars because of their material or their craftsmanship.

aNoob7000 4y ago
At this point, crypto is useless. Are people making money trading it? Yes. Can regular people do anything with it? No. With as much money that has been poured into crypto related businesses, I still can't easily send or transact business with it.
- ernst_klim 4y ago
  > Can regular people do anything with it? No. It's used a lot in the third world. In Georgia you can buy a burger paying crypto via NFC terminal. I also know people who get their salaries in crypto. And it's used a lot for donating to opposition where it's illegal, like in most dictatorship.
  - A_Venom_Roll 4y ago
    Can you give some estimates about how much crypto is "used" in the third world, or at least give some sources for this statement?
    - ernst_klim 4y ago
      I have no estimates, only my experience from visiting these countries, but I found an article regarding Georgia [1]. But it's pretty widespread, Navalny, the main Putin opponent uses crypto as the main source of donations since all his accounts were frozen, Ukrainian army accepts donations in crypto, Belarus opposition uses crypto, hundreds of thousands of Russians used crypto to move their savings out of Russia, Iranians, Chinese and Venezuelans use it a lot too. [1] https://forbes.ge/en/georgia-a-new-crypto-hub-with-emerging-crypto-payments/ https://forbes.ge/en/georgia-a-new-crypto-hub-with-emerging-...

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birracerveza 4y ago

Then don't buy it. If it's a scam it will go to zero and be forgotten as it does not have any fundamental value, as you say. If it does have fundamental value, then it's not a scam. What a stupid hyperbole. What's the point of making yet another article blasting it with the same old tired arguments that have been continuously repeated ad nauseam for the last 12 years or so? I'm honestly surprised the article does not link to the Line Goes Up youtube video...

birracerveza 4y ago
Oh dear lord I just had a look at the rest of his blog. This guy has an unhealthy obsession against crypto, and paired with https://news.ycombinator.com/context?id=34693042 https://news.ycombinator.com/context?id=34693042 I'd say it's either sour grapes or has some kind of agenda, even if it's a personal vendetta. In any case he's not even worth the bytes used to receive the webpage.
ur-whale 4y ago
> Then don't buy it. Ah, but then what would he apply his savior complex to? There's only so many "worthy" causes in the world, and the market for self-righteous do-gooders is a very crowded one.
- birracerveza 4y ago
  It's weird. As I noted in another comment, he's extremely vocal against crypto... yet he worked on it and apparently got destroyed by it. It's not savior complex, it's just sour grapes.

jillesvangurp 4y ago

You don't need crypto to run a scam. Financial scams are as old as money is. The fallacy in this argument is that there's something special in crypto that makes this more likely to happen. There isn't. In fact, you could argue that the enormous activity of scammers in this space actually points to some inherent qualities that might be useful beyond just running ponzi schemes and other scams. One of these qualities is that scammers are unusually aware and mindful that they might get robbed by people equally untrustworthy on the same platforms that they use. So, the notion that that isn't happening on popular blockchain platforms is useful to them, and others. Tamper proof ledgers are useful for all sorts of things. The history of money is basically increasingly elaborate measures to prevent theft, forgeries, and other abuse. People trying to abuse the system are a constant. Blockchains and other cryptographic tools are just that: tools. I expect banks to gradually incorporate these tools into what they do. That's already happening. E.g. China rolled out the the e-yuan currency last year. Not a decentralized blockchain but it obviously incorporates some of the technology. Other countries are doing similar things.

fredley 4y ago
> The fallacy in this argument is that there's something special in crypto that makes this more likely to happen. I think this goes without saying: money and financial systems are regulated—to some degree—everywhere in the World. They are regulated by Governments, and there are real penalties for evading those regulations and getting caught. Many of these regulations were put in place to prevent the kind of shenanigans that is commonplace in crypto. In crypto, by design, there is no regulation, nor is it really possible. This is the something that's special about crypto.
- danaris 4y ago
  > In crypto, by design, there is no regulation, nor is it really possible. That's demonstrably untrue—at least, that it's not possible. (I'm perfectly willing to believe it was designed to be unregulatable; it's just that, as usual, programmers echo-chambering at each other about how they think the law works didn't actually take into account how the law really works.) Crypto is becoming regulated more and more as time goes on. There's nothing special and magical about it; it was just new, and with the US Congress hopelessly dysfunctional, it was not hard to predict that it would take some time for them to actually catch up and start doing something about it.

nebulous1 4y ago

I don't really understand people trying to defend absurd positions like this. What's even the point? It doesn't seem like it's necessary for this to be true if you want to argue that crypto "should" be eliminated, all you need to do is argue that it's decisively more bad than good. When somebody makes weak arguments like this I'm just going to ignore their thoughts in the future because they've demonstrated that they have faulty reasoning. Crypto is awash in scams. On top of the scams you have people who are not intentionally scamming but are misguided and will end up doing harm to others and/or themselves. On top of that there is crypto that could genuinely work under certain circumstances (ie have a use-case that provides value to its users without significantly adversely affecting others).

cinntaile 4y ago
Crypto takedowns are basically what this guy does. [0] Just like you have the religious crypto evangelists, you have the religious anti-crypto people. This is about feelings, not reason so that's why the arguments tend to be a bit far-fetched/weak. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=stephendiehl.com https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=stephendiehl.com
louwrentius 4y ago
> On top of that there is crypto that could genuinely work under certain circumstances (ie have a use-case that provides value to its users without significantly adversely affecting others). To me personally, this is the biggest lie there is about crypto/ blockchain. To this day no application has been identified that could not be better solved with existing tech. The whole crypto space seems to be a solution in search of a legitimate problem to solve. (Plenty of illegitimate use cases sure)
steego 4y ago
Let’s not hand wave: Can you actually spell out the use-cases that provide value to its users without significantly adversely affecting others? The trouble with crypto is most of the use-cases it claims to solve, either aren’t solved, or they’re often better solved with more efficient and time-tested solutions. So, let’s get specific and jump into the technical details of specific use cases. What use-cases does crypto solve?

qwerty456127 4y ago

I use cryptocurrencies to pay for services where I want to stay anonymous for no ill/illegal reason. I just don't feel comfortable being watched wherever I go and whatever I do even if I don't do anything evil.

hcurtiss 4y ago
This entire comment section seems premised on this idea that crypto is useful because it's anonymous. But with the exception of a couple tokens like Monero and Zcash, which are rarely used, crypto is significantly LESS anonymous than cash. There's a reason it's called a public ledger. So odd.
- danuker 4y ago
  Cash is much more expensive to transact in. Bitcoin is more private than bank/credit card transfers even if you don't try to hide your identity, because it costs more to follow your trail (especially if you bought it from a natural person rather than a KYC centralized exchange). But it is pretty convenient, as it can be done fully online.
- leesalminen 4y ago
  Cash can only be used anonymously in-person. Lots of commerce happens virtually today over the internet. Using cash to pay for digital goods/services is not a sustainable solution. Sure, you can mail an envelope with cash for a very small number of online services. But, the US government OCRs the return+to address on every letter in the country. So, even your envelope with cash is being traced. And there's the risk of the letter being lost/stolen. There's also a carbon footprint involved in sending physical letters around the globe on cars/planes.
- qwerty456127 4y ago
  Sure, I use Monero, Zcash and mixers. I absolutely can't imagine using BitCoin or similar currencies the plain way so everybody would see precisely where and when, for how much and, indirectly, what I buy - this seems insane, do people really do this? The only problem still making me feel slightly uncomfortable is I don't understand how do Monero and Zcash achieve anonymity, how is it possible to transfer money without registering who (whose wallet) pays who. Ideally you should understand how do your tools work. But I don't care enough to dedicate time to study this.

ant1oz 4y ago

Oh my god, this guy is the ultimate troll,!!! Listen, have you ever observed a troll writing a book? Really? Currency is a scam. You get paid in paper, pay taxes on it, which gets stolen( sorry in edged) in corrupted corps, with a debt system where you are just a slave of your mortgage - unless you're a clever troll, and you bought 10btc 10 years ago, write a book to put the price down, while at the same time, being the most biased possible to trigger HN readers in the hope of getting a Google page rank.... Pathetic.

viktorcode 4y ago

Let me just point out how incredibly poor the word "scam" is defined in that dictionary. By that literal definition a lot of different things become scams because they are "clever", dishonest and are about making money.

cirgue 4y ago
“Dishonest and profitable” is a usable definition of fraud. What’s the issue here?

detrites 4y ago

Some here are pathetically-misinformed regarding crypto's utility and social benefits. Read the Latin America section of Chainalysis 2022 report (Pgs. 19 - 27) before claiming "it's all a scam" (and so spreading mis-information): https://go.chainalysis.com/rs/503-FAP-074/images/2022-Geography-of-Cryptocurrency.pdf https://go.chainalysis.com/rs/503-FAP-074/images/2022-Geogra... For those not aware, the company that produced this report, Chainalysis, actively aids prosecution of illegality in the crypto space, acting as primary advisors to the FBI, IRS etc. They may just know what they're talking about: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chainalysis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chainalysis

bheadmaster 4y ago
> and so spreading mis-information Who died and made you the Minister of Truth?
- detrites 4y ago
  Truth did.
  - bheadmaster 4y ago
    Meaningless comment pretending to be deep.
    - detrites 4y ago
      You said it.
      - bheadmaster 4y ago
        Pointless comment written just to have the last word.
yao420 4y ago
As a Latin American the largest uptake I see is among criminal groups for money laundering.[0] But with an open mind I read the section you called out and I have several issues. The first is that the report doesn’t actually discuss or show the numbers. The country reporting only talks about inflation in those countries and percentage of transactions, how much volume and coins are these countries actually moving? They have the stats, but know it’s all wash trading. Funny how ‘wash trading’ or even ‘money laundering’ doesn’t even make it I to the report. Really makes the branding of building trust in blockchains laughable. Second this report is very outdated. This is seen in the Mexico section; it talks about inflation numbers and the potential for remittances. It even mentions coinbase’s program which was shutdown in sept 22 for lack of usage (as in a couple hundred bucks a week). [0] https://www.reuters.com/article/mexico-bitcoin/insight-latin-american-crime-cartels-turn-to-crypto-to-clean-up-their-cash-idUSL1N2IJ01D https://www.reuters.com/article/mexico-bitcoin/insight-latin...

josh2600 4y ago

Society is also a scam if you view it through this lens. All innovation, all technology can be wielded for good or for evil. With fire anyone can burn a building or cook a steak. I like to find the people who are using technology to help others. Let's make stuff to amplify them.

ur-whale 4y ago

Please stop giving a pulpit to this effing fanatic. Diehl is not rational and utterly biased (he's party to a startup that will fail if any blockhain type tech. becomes popular).

grapesurgeon 4y ago

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baryphonic 4y ago

> However, crypto represents a divergence entirely from a Keynesian worldview in that it has created this bizarre simulacrum of markets with all the trappings and veneer of finance but which has no pretense of being tethered to the economic problem at all. No goods, services or resources are being exchanged. Crypto is a Keynesian beauty contest for zero-sum get-rich-quick schemes. I call it the nothingness game, a bizarre contest in which participants continuously punt on get-rich-quick schemes for lumps of nothing based on their perception of which lump of nothing others believe is the most attractive. What a bizarre argument. Keynes wrote in the 1920s and 30s, so according to Diehl, did economics and finance not exist prior to Keynes? Was it all just a simulacrum until Keynes showed up and whipped out his General Theory? The map is not the territory. This isn't even factually true. Crypto is in fact used in the real economy of places that have such bad monetary systems that crypto is much more stable. Look at Venezuela or even Ukraine and how much crypto is used there because the formal financial system is shambolic. Crypto scams may be more common in the developed world where formal institutions are decent enough that the marginal cost of using crypto in the real economy is just too high compared to the legacy financial system.

jhbadger 4y ago
The US dollar is pretty much the de facto currency of places where the official currency is unstable/distrusted. Places like El Salvador made a big deal of adopting Bitcoin, but it was mostly smoke and mirrors.
- baryphonic 4y ago
  Fair enough, but I didn't mention El Salvador. Moving dollars in and out of authoritarian or war-torn countries isn't trivial. That's why I mentioned Venezuela and Ukraine.[0] Russia itself also has a significant crypto economy. None of this is to say there isn't demand for dollars in those places, just that supply of dollars is not exactly abundant. Thus, they go to crypto. That's the argument. [0] https://www.elliptic.co/blog/live-updates-millions-in-crypto-crowdfunded-for-the-ukrainian-military https://www.elliptic.co/blog/live-updates-millions-in-crypto...

atdrummond 4y ago

Be grateful you live in the EU or the US and don’t need crypto. It has been a major lifeline for my family and friends in Lebanon and Venezuela, both of which lack fully functioning financial services. I can send Bitcoin just fine though!

louwrentius 4y ago
That is not really a vindication of crypto, it’s just an extra condemnation of what is happening in Lebanon and Venezuela. And although it may help individuals it is not a sustainable solution to the issues in those countries. 99.99% of crypto is unsustainable speculation on a game of musical chairs or outright scams / ransomware. If you look at the entire picture, crypto has such a negative impact on this world. It makes me sad.
- capableweb 4y ago
  > although it may help individuals it is not a sustainable solution to the issues in those countries Sometimes what you need are not "sustainable solutions", that's something you can afford when you are not struggling daily just to stay alive. Sometimes you just need something that solves the problem right now, damned by "sustainability". Just like most people in poverty don't give a fuck about climate change, there are so many other problems on their mind about their daily life, that there is no space to focus on "bigger problems" or "sustainability", it's just about surviving and finding ways around whatever problem arises.
  - louwrentius 4y ago
    If people in countries like Libanon or Venezuela have to survive by “dumping a barrel of oil each day in the ocean”, and this is basically the only “legitimate” use case for “oil” this is clearly not a vindication for the existence of oil. It’s just all bad, there is no justification for “oil” to exist.
    - capableweb 4y ago

nic_wilson 4y ago

It may have already been noted elsewhere but it seems important to note that the author was (is?) the CTO of private blockchain start up and choosing to not disclose this in any of his crypto criticism seems very dishonest https://twitter.com/dystopiabreaker/status/1470126927818067969 https://twitter.com/dystopiabreaker/status/14701269278180679...

rvz 4y ago
I guess it would be embarrassing for him to admit that he tried to compete against Ethereum after Cardano destroyed his private blockchain startup. Stephen Diehl is also no better than the crypto maximalists with his extreme absolutism. You won't see him debate and test his arguments with a balanced panel discussion so that you can easily see how extreme his arguments are. He has a book to sell and is full time, 24/7 tweeting the 'all of crypto is scam' chorus. Not all cryptocurrencies, tokens will survive, but only a select few of them and their technologies will still be around to be used under regulations.
- ur-whale 4y ago
  > I guess it would be embarrassing for him to admit that he tried to compete against Ethereum after Cardano destroyed his private blockchain startup. Given the level of Rage Against The Crypto ™ displayed, that's pretty much implicit.
- 411111111111111 4y ago
  > Not all cryptocurrencies, tokens will survive, but only a select few of them and their technologies will still be around to be used under regulations. No chance in hell. The only sustained market this technology has are illegal transactions/black market. To begin with: a regulated Blockchain is an oxymoron. The technology ceases to have any meaning if the government has the ability to regulate the chain. They'd be able be more effective with regular acid databases and certificates for the web of trust, like they've been doing for a very long time now. You be combining the downsides of Blockchain with the downsides of traditional banking, gaining only the weaknesses of both.

unity1001 4y ago

Crypto enables DAOs. For the first time in human history, large scale financial and economic organization for the general public is possible. And its possible to do it in a transparent manner. In 'normal' life this kind of organization, investment, company creation and management et al are all gated behind legal complications and requirements of minimum capital and many others. Even when a major movement succeeds in setting up a foundation, the running of it is complicated, non-transparent and anti-democratic. Even with companies it is the same - for the ordinary person creating or participating in a company is difficult and it requires understanding legal implications and responsibilities. Even if you do, there are various legal and economic barriers to investing and participating in such large companies. With DAOs, everything is in broad daylight - depending on how the DAO is set up of course. But any properly set up DAO gives the power to the people in taking up the culture that we created in Open Source Software movement up a notch - by enabling organized economic movements. That DAO which tried to buy the US constition failed. There was no way a new, emergent, new way of doing things could gather enough money in enough time to overcome the already aggregated private capital that it competed with. But it proved something - for the first time in history, such things are possible. Economic organization for the masses. Those who criticize crypto seem to have scarce awareness, leave aside understanding of what DAOs represent, and what is happening in DAO space. Of course, its hard to blame people - some understanding of at least Early Modern human history, economic systems and organization patterns and the development of democracy would be required to understand how big a change DAOs are. And that requires an ample interest in history itself.

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bayesian_horse 4y ago

In my opinion this is not quite true, because there's a basic form of "investment" scheme going on. People exchange value (money, energy) for some kind of token, expecting to get some value back. They may actually be satisfied with getting only a fraction back in many cases (money laundering...). Cryptocurrencies do have some non-scam value because they fulfill the technical end of such a belief based value store. Don't get me wrong. Plenty of scams in that business...

gloosx 4y ago

I disagree with this, it seems to me that if you follow author's logic you can call US dollar scam too - a lot of it's value is same thin air called "debt"?. The problem with argumentation and particulary with church comparison is that in order for something to be called scam, as per definition provided in the article, someone must be there who planned it, who gets all the profits. But crypto has no central entity, no final scammer, there are just programmatic rules - and crystal transparency, everyone is free to do whatever fits in this paradigm, and this is future of currency

Felmioytfr 4y ago
Houses are not nothing. You don't just get into debt without anything on the other side
- gloosx 4y ago
  Still, debt is money created out of thin air, with best hopes that air is not so thin. There were number of events where debt was looking secure, but in fact it was all thin air, and the global economy followed with a crash. It shouldn't happen if you really don't get into debt without anything on the other side, yet, it happens?
  - Felmioytfr 4y ago
    People literally now buy a digital coin and suddenly uncontrolled new value is created. Whatever we have without crypto is different.
b3nji 4y ago
Some would go far as to say all fiat currency is a total scam. "Fake money", as I think Robert T. Kiyosaki, author of "Rich Dad Poor Dad" describes it.
- DonHopkins 4y ago
  So a totally fake and bankrupt scammer and anti-vax spammer who advises investing in MLM scams and who is aptly described as a racist idiot Trump supporter himself describes all fiat currency as a total scam and "fake money", huh? Do you also have high praise for the book he wrote with Donald J Trump about "Why We Want You to Be Rich?" Who you choose to worship and parrot says so much about you and the quality of your advice and beliefs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_We_Want_You_to_Be_Rich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_We_Want_You_to_Be_Rich >The Intercept wrote critically of the book's advice, including the recommendation by Trump and Kiyosaki to invest in multi-level marketing companies, asserting instead that these are harmful pyramid schemes.[1] The Intercept contrasted assertions in the book with promises by Trump during his 2016 campaign for president, writing Trump's later views were contradictory with the work.[1] San Antonio Express-News was critical of the contradictory advice imparted in the book, writing, "Trump and Kiyosaki argued that because they were already rich, they had no need to make more money, all the while cashing in on the very books that said so."[8] The paper marveled at the reaction among consumers, "Fans responded to this kind of contradiction by praising both the authors' earlier financial success and their shrewdness in taking advantage of the new opportunity to sell."[8] https://thecollegeinvestor.com/4726/ultimate-hypocrite-robert-kiyosaki-companys- https://thecollegeinvestor.com/4726/ultimate-hypocrite-rober... >The Ultimate Hypocrite: Robert Kiyosaki and His Company’s Bankruptcy >A story came across the news this weekend about Robert Kiyosaki, the author of Rich Dad, Poor Dad, and how his company went bankrupt last month. Basically, the company didn’t pay the proper royalties on its seminars, and when they lost in court, they didn’t have enough money to pay at all. It wasn’t a personal bankruptcy, rather, a corporate bankruptcy. However, a corporation with money should be able to pay up for a minor royalty dispute (only $23 million compared to $400+ million in revenues). And when your name is attached to a company, and your business is built around creating wealth, the word bankruptcy associated with it usually isn’t a good thing. >However minor you may consider it, I find it appalling as a personal finance writer. This guy made a living on selling “his story” and encouraging others to fork out tons of money to hear it. In the end, the story crumbles, and it just makes him a hypocrite. https://www.theroot.com/the-rich-dad-poor-dad-guy-is-a-racist-idiot-trump-supp-1844119565 https://www.theroot.com/the-rich-dad-poor-dad-guy-is-a-racis... >The Rich Dad Poor Dad Guy Is a Racist, Idiot Trump Supporter So Please STFU About That Shitty Book Forever >People who pray at this altar are specifically susceptible to the sort of symbiotic grift that has made Robert Kiyosaki a rich man. >If you’ve never heard of Robert Kiyosaki or his Rich Dad Poor Dad empire of financial advice, I want you to stop reading this, I want you to get on your knees, and I want you to thank God for granting you such luck. You are blessed. You are highly favored. Unfortunately, many of us are not as fortunate, as this book exists in the curricula of Shit Frequently Cited by Douchebags Who Say Dumb Shit Like “I’ll Sleep When I Die” and “Rise and Grind” and “We Need Black-Owned Prisons.” >If you ask someone to name their favorite reads, and they list this or The Art of War or The 48 Laws of Power, it’s a foolproof tell of a money-centered morality—a devotion based on the belief that people with money are better than those without it. Not wealthier or more privileged or provided more opportunity to live a better life, but inherently smarter, harder-working, less impulsive, and more trustworthy. It doesn’t matter how you got the money, or who you stole from (or killed) to have it. If you have it, you’re God. >People who pray at this altar are specifically susceptible to the sort of symbiotic grift that has made Robert Kiyosaki a rich man. (Well, rich-ish.) He convinces you to buy a book with Fisher-Price financial advice, and then encourages you to spread the gospel of grift to others—which creates the sort of following that allows him to charge tens of thousands for Matryoshka doll-constructed seminars where he delivers gems like “invest in things” and “dimes are worth twice as much as nickels.” [...Kiyosaki's ranting racist anti-vax pro-trump plannedemic conspiracy theory tweets redacted...] >THIS IS YOUR FINANCIAL ADVICE KING??? This guy??? Darth Dale Carnegie is your money mentor??? This is the guy who Danny Ocean steals shit from in movies. I wouldn’t trust this man to crack an egg. >If this information upsets you, and you find yourself in dire need of a new source for surefire financial advice, don’t fret! I got you! It even remixes Rich Dad Poor Dad. You ready for it? Ok, here it comes: >1. Have a rich dad. >Thank you for attending my seminar. That will be $17,000. I take Cash App and Venmo.

davidguetta 4y ago

Money not based on gold standard, and which can be printed anytime the government feels like it, is also a scam. However when many people agree of a price at a given time, anything, including a scam, can in turn become money.

shagymoe 4y ago

I mostly agree with this article about "crypto". Bitcoin is not crypto. In any case, you could make similar arguments about banks and the "Federal" Reserve being scams. In fact, quite a few well regarded politicians of old made exactly those arguments. The implicit agreement in this particular argument is that the scam we've accepted is somehow better.

colesantiago 4y ago
Bitcoin IS crypto. Please stop this delusional thinking trying to separate them, we both know that all of crypto is full speculation and you know it. There is no difference, it doesn't matter if it was 'first'.

strictlymomo 4y ago

Why am I not surprised this is tradfi nerd extraordinaire Stephen Diehl.

Geee 4y ago

Almost all money is a scam. People don't typically realize that 'making money from thin air' is the oldest of all scams. In history books they tell that people used salt, animal furs, shells etc. as money. What's forgotten is that there was always a 'bro' who shilled these new forms of money to other people. This bro had found a way to produce these cheaply and could get rich. Eventually people realized this scam and moved onto rare metals which can't be produced from thin air, without work. However, these were minted into standard coinage, and eventually they were clipped or mixed with cheaper metals. Again, someone found a way to scam. Next, we moved onto gold-backed paper money and then to fiat currency, and yet again the scamming continues, even easier than before. They've even made the scamming official, by mandating the 2% inflation target.

mmcnl 4y ago
Money is not a scam at all. That's a ridiculous claim. I can use money to purchase goods and services. Not a scam. I can't use crypto to purchase goods and services. Yes a scam. Simple.

righttoolforjob 4y ago

Slightly related. The Reddit subforum for Bitcoin is managed by people supporting the scam and they very actively promote it and will ban any opposition. I think that should be illegal.

shagie 4y ago
While the "Reddit's /r/{something} is supported by people with a financial interest in {something}" can be distasteful, under what theory of law would or should it be made illegal?
- righttoolforjob 4y ago
  Corruption? Scam? I don't know which universal theory of law you are talking about, but if you are actively lying or hiding information to further your own interests then that surely could and should be illegal. You'll have to construct this theory of yours yourself though.
  - shagie 4y ago
    If you are claiming that they are acting fraudulently or acting as financial advisors and misrepresenting information... that's already a thing. If you think its a boiler room scheme - that's already illegal to. If you are saying that someone with some stock in AAPL and would be pleased if it went up can't be a mod of /r/apple and should have criminal liability for moderating a community's activity (and would likely ban people who consistently post 'Apple is bad, buy Dell instead' or 'Avoid apple - Steve Jobs was a bad man') then you're suggesting a different thing that would be harder (in my eyes) to argue for.

friend_and_foe 4y ago

How can a blanket statement be core to your philosophy? If a blanket objective claim is core to your belief system, it's not a philosophy, it's an ideology. Which is fine, but call it what it is. Also, he says most counterarguments are in bad faith. Foes that mean some aren't? Wouldn't refusal to address these good faith claims mean you're arguing in bad faith as well?

pfoof 4y ago

Crypto is just as scam as US dollar. A try of giving it into "control of the people". But Satoshi overestimated human nature.

Laurenz1337 4y ago

I gotta disagree with this author on the whole "no intrinsic value" thing when it comes to crypto. Sure, it's true that cryptocurrencies aren't physical assets like gold or silver, but that doesn't mean they don't have value. People are willing to pay money for them, which gives them value. It's supply and demand, plain and simple. Plus, with blockchain technology, crypto is much more secure and transparent compared to traditional forms of currency. So don't be so quick to dismiss it as just entries in a database created out of thin air. There's definitely more to it than that.