4 ms·

Then you really should read the terms before signing up.

josephcsible 4y ago
Should people be allowed to sell their organs? How about selling themselves into slavery or indentured servitude? Unless your answer is "yes to both", you agree that there is a line somewhere for things that aren't okay just because you entered into a contract that said they were, and it's just a matter of defining where that line is.
- alphanullmeric 4y ago
  How can you sell yourself into slavery? Slavery is forced. if you volunteered you’re not a slave.
  - Y_Y 4y ago
    Factually untrue. There are plenty of historical examples of mechanisms for voluntarily becoming a slave. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_slavery
  - simiones 4y ago
    Once you sell yourself, you become a slave, and have no option of reverting back to freedom. It's really not a hard concept.
  - denton-scratch 4y ago
    It's called "indentured servitude". You get paid a lump sum up-front, then work for nothing for some number of years. In Gilbert and Sullivan's Pirates of Penzance, Frederick is indentured to a band of pirates until his 21st birthday.
    - addingnumbers 4y ago
      > In Gilbert and Sullivan's Pirates of Penzance, Frederick is indentured to a band of pirates until his 21st birthday. That particular wording coming back around to bite him when it's pointed out that he was born on February 29th in a leap year...
- sneak 4y ago
  Yes to both. Why shouldn't people get to decide what happens to the one thing that is unambiguously their own? My body, my choice.
  - teddyh 4y ago
    If it were legal to sell yourself into slavery (as it once was), we know what would happen: A lot of companies would try to push people into the position where people would feel they had no other choice to become slaves, and companies would position themselves to take advantage of this fact. We would then have a permanent class of slaves in the world, which would dehumanize them and gradually freeze the hearts of everybody who was made to interact with this system. We know this would happen because it did happen. And it was a long road for humanity as a whole to get rid of it (and we still haven’t completely). And you would throw it all away because of some personal libertarian principle? This isn’t only about what you would like to be able to do in any given moment, it’s what this ability does to society as a whole. Your ability to someday be able to sell yourself into slavery has some value (for the principle of the thing, if nothing else), but it is certainly not worth the above-mentioned effects on society. (Repost of <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26131936 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26131936>, from two years ago.)
    - LadyCailin 4y ago
      Libertarianism is like communism. Looks fantastic on paper, but is god awful in practice.
      - kwhitefoot 4y ago
        I'm not at all sure that either looks good even on paper!
  - mcv 4y ago
    But by selling it, becomes not their own anymore. I find it weird to use freedom as a justification to destroy freedom.
  - bryanrasmussen 4y ago
- SkyBelow 4y ago
  I don't think this is a fair comparison. They are selling a service starting at $1 to give you ink cartridges with limits on their use. This isn't some technical gotcha or trick. Sure, there is likely some UI underhandedness that tricks people into signing up for this, and that should be called out, but the business model is not inherently abusive. People thinking they can pay $1, get an ink cartridge, and then cancel the subscription and keep the ink cartridge to use are having unrealistic expectations of a service.
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    > People thinking they can pay $1, get an ink cartridge, and then cancel the subscription and keep the ink cartridge to use are having unrealistic expectations of a service. What if I pay $1, run the ink cartridge dry the first day, then immediately cancel?
    - SkyBelow 4y ago
      I looked up pricing. Seems like their cheapest plan will charge you another $1 for every 10 pages (which is more expensive than buying a higher tier).
- s3p 4y ago
  Yes to both. done. although HN will downvote any yes replies to this comment because it challenges the premise of OP's point.
- phendrenad2 4y ago
  People are not allowed to sell their organs because it would make illegal organ harvesting harder for law enforcement to catch. People are not allowed to sell themselves into indentured servitude because it would be impossible to prove that someone agreed to it. So yes, you're right, there are things you're not allowed to agree to, for the good of society. Are you seriously suggesting that not being allowed to rent ink is in some way comparable?
pbhjpbhj 4y ago
No, no, no - companies should make the major aspects obvious up front. If anything said "buy" rather than "rent, with remote deactivation" then the company made it unclear on purpose.

Should people be allowed to sell their organs? How about selling themselves into slavery or indentured servitude? Unless your answer is "yes to both", you agree that there is a line somewhere for things that aren't okay just because you entered into a contract that said they were, and it's just a matter of defining where that line is.

alphanullmeric 4y ago
How can you sell yourself into slavery? Slavery is forced. if you volunteered you’re not a slave.
- Y_Y 4y ago
  Factually untrue. There are plenty of historical examples of mechanisms for voluntarily becoming a slave. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_slavery
- simiones 4y ago
  Once you sell yourself, you become a slave, and have no option of reverting back to freedom. It's really not a hard concept.
- denton-scratch 4y ago
  It's called "indentured servitude". You get paid a lump sum up-front, then work for nothing for some number of years. In Gilbert and Sullivan's Pirates of Penzance, Frederick is indentured to a band of pirates until his 21st birthday.
  - addingnumbers 4y ago
    > In Gilbert and Sullivan's Pirates of Penzance, Frederick is indentured to a band of pirates until his 21st birthday. That particular wording coming back around to bite him when it's pointed out that he was born on February 29th in a leap year...
sneak 4y ago
Yes to both. Why shouldn't people get to decide what happens to the one thing that is unambiguously their own? My body, my choice.
- teddyh 4y ago
  If it were legal to sell yourself into slavery (as it once was), we know what would happen: A lot of companies would try to push people into the position where people would feel they had no other choice to become slaves, and companies would position themselves to take advantage of this fact. We would then have a permanent class of slaves in the world, which would dehumanize them and gradually freeze the hearts of everybody who was made to interact with this system. We know this would happen because it did happen. And it was a long road for humanity as a whole to get rid of it (and we still haven’t completely). And you would throw it all away because of some personal libertarian principle? This isn’t only about what you would like to be able to do in any given moment, it’s what this ability does to society as a whole. Your ability to someday be able to sell yourself into slavery has some value (for the principle of the thing, if nothing else), but it is certainly not worth the above-mentioned effects on society. (Repost of <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26131936 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26131936>, from two years ago.)
  - LadyCailin 4y ago
    Libertarianism is like communism. Looks fantastic on paper, but is god awful in practice.
    - kwhitefoot 4y ago
      I'm not at all sure that either looks good even on paper!
- mcv 4y ago
  But by selling it, becomes not their own anymore. I find it weird to use freedom as a justification to destroy freedom.
- bryanrasmussen 4y ago
SkyBelow 4y ago
I don't think this is a fair comparison. They are selling a service starting at $1 to give you ink cartridges with limits on their use. This isn't some technical gotcha or trick. Sure, there is likely some UI underhandedness that tricks people into signing up for this, and that should be called out, but the business model is not inherently abusive. People thinking they can pay $1, get an ink cartridge, and then cancel the subscription and keep the ink cartridge to use are having unrealistic expectations of a service.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  > People thinking they can pay $1, get an ink cartridge, and then cancel the subscription and keep the ink cartridge to use are having unrealistic expectations of a service. What if I pay $1, run the ink cartridge dry the first day, then immediately cancel?
  - SkyBelow 4y ago
    I looked up pricing. Seems like their cheapest plan will charge you another $1 for every 10 pages (which is more expensive than buying a higher tier).
s3p 4y ago
Yes to both. done. although HN will downvote any yes replies to this comment because it challenges the premise of OP's point.
phendrenad2 4y ago
People are not allowed to sell their organs because it would make illegal organ harvesting harder for law enforcement to catch. People are not allowed to sell themselves into indentured servitude because it would be impossible to prove that someone agreed to it. So yes, you're right, there are things you're not allowed to agree to, for the good of society. Are you seriously suggesting that not being allowed to rent ink is in some way comparable?

pbhjpbhj 4y ago

No, no, no - companies should make the major aspects obvious up front. If anything said "buy" rather than "rent, with remote deactivation" then the company made it unclear on purpose.