4 ms·

I think this is a perfect summation of the issue. Not allowing public discourse will always result in entrenche, extreme, and polarizing views.

_cenw 4y ago
As an affected individual: Public discourse on this issue is plentiful and, unfortunately, usually full of wrong information, misconceptions and "my favorite scientist said otherwise" (probably on the JRE, against a dozen or so professional medical associations) gotchas from exterminationist groups that get invited on to have a "balanced" conversation. Transgender people do not have large political or economic impact either. We kind of rely on the few media outlets that do their due dilligence to not platform the already entrenched, extreme and polarized, who then go on to claim the discourse is being supressed. The tone in the US is even worse. We went from the edge of the overton window being "I have empathy for their delusion but they can't pick their bathroom" conservatives to "The trannys are all secret pedophiles that want to corrupt our children, we need to return the death penalty for such degeneracy" conservatives in barely 10 years.
- fallingknife 4y ago
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  - crote 4y ago
    There are plenty of those if you are willing to accept historical precedents and international examples. Putting the death penalty on homosexuality and "gender deviance" isn't exactly a new thing. Very few people in the Western world openly advocate for that, I agree. However, plenty want to ban transgender people from existing by outlawing transgender healthcare, or banning wearing clothes not traditionally associated with your assigned gender at birth. The idea that transgender people should not exist is quite mainstream among certain political groups.
  - _cenw 4y ago
    > I know of no such "exterminationist" groups. I should have used the word "eliminationist". This is a modern way to say "genocide by social death". The GOP already attempted to introduce a federal bill that would redefine the act of being trans as sexual, which would bar trans people from essentially every public place where minors could be present. Dame Magazine has a good high level overview: https://www.damemagazine.com/2022/03/15/trans-people-are-in-grave-danger/ https://www.damemagazine.com/2022/03/15/trans-people-are-in-... And here's some academic reading on this (and also why it's called genocide despite nobody being killed in the streets, common misconception): https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1114&context=gsp https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1... One such organization is the Heritage Foundation, who are behind the push to remove queer literature from schools. https://translegislation.com/bills/2022 https://translegislation.com/bills/2022 has a great overview aside from that. > I have never heard someone advocate for the death penalty transgenders. https://www.advocate.com/politics/2022/3/29/ex-gop-candidate-robert-foster-calls-firing-squads-trans-rights-supporters https://www.advocate.com/politics/2022/3/29/ex-gop-candidate... (also, transgender is an adjective, you don't plural it) > I only ever hear about such things from people who are against debating people on the trans issue, because they label the people they are debating against as such. That's an issue with your bias and possibly with the media you consume, I can't help you with that. > This strategy doesn't help your cause. I have learned that those who are easy to compromise on their stance over optics issues weren't true allies to begin with. Gains in LGBTQ rights have historically never been achieved through appeasement.
- mrozbarry 4y ago
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  - flangola7 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - mrozbarry 4y ago
      I want to be clear, I'm not saying being trans is or is not an ideology in and of itself, but that doesn't mean there are no ideologies that revolve around it.
      - freejazz 4y ago
        So what? By that notion everything else is a cis ideology. I guess it has never occurred to you that there is a point to how much gender ideology you take for granted when it's just being straight and heteronormative.
      - flangola7 4y ago
        What ideologies revolve around it that don't revolve around being cis? I genuinely have no idea what you're referencing.

_cenw 4y ago

As an affected individual: Public discourse on this issue is plentiful and, unfortunately, usually full of wrong information, misconceptions and "my favorite scientist said otherwise" (probably on the JRE, against a dozen or so professional medical associations) gotchas from exterminationist groups that get invited on to have a "balanced" conversation. Transgender people do not have large political or economic impact either. We kind of rely on the few media outlets that do their due dilligence to not platform the already entrenched, extreme and polarized, who then go on to claim the discourse is being supressed. The tone in the US is even worse. We went from the edge of the overton window being "I have empathy for their delusion but they can't pick their bathroom" conservatives to "The trannys are all secret pedophiles that want to corrupt our children, we need to return the death penalty for such degeneracy" conservatives in barely 10 years.

fallingknife 4y ago
[flagged]
- crote 4y ago
  There are plenty of those if you are willing to accept historical precedents and international examples. Putting the death penalty on homosexuality and "gender deviance" isn't exactly a new thing. Very few people in the Western world openly advocate for that, I agree. However, plenty want to ban transgender people from existing by outlawing transgender healthcare, or banning wearing clothes not traditionally associated with your assigned gender at birth. The idea that transgender people should not exist is quite mainstream among certain political groups.
- _cenw 4y ago
  > I know of no such "exterminationist" groups. I should have used the word "eliminationist". This is a modern way to say "genocide by social death". The GOP already attempted to introduce a federal bill that would redefine the act of being trans as sexual, which would bar trans people from essentially every public place where minors could be present. Dame Magazine has a good high level overview: https://www.damemagazine.com/2022/03/15/trans-people-are-in-grave-danger/ https://www.damemagazine.com/2022/03/15/trans-people-are-in-... And here's some academic reading on this (and also why it's called genocide despite nobody being killed in the streets, common misconception): https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1114&context=gsp https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1... One such organization is the Heritage Foundation, who are behind the push to remove queer literature from schools. https://translegislation.com/bills/2022 https://translegislation.com/bills/2022 has a great overview aside from that. > I have never heard someone advocate for the death penalty transgenders. https://www.advocate.com/politics/2022/3/29/ex-gop-candidate-robert-foster-calls-firing-squads-trans-rights-supporters https://www.advocate.com/politics/2022/3/29/ex-gop-candidate... (also, transgender is an adjective, you don't plural it) > I only ever hear about such things from people who are against debating people on the trans issue, because they label the people they are debating against as such. That's an issue with your bias and possibly with the media you consume, I can't help you with that. > This strategy doesn't help your cause. I have learned that those who are easy to compromise on their stance over optics issues weren't true allies to begin with. Gains in LGBTQ rights have historically never been achieved through appeasement.
mrozbarry 4y ago
[flagged]
- flangola7 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - mrozbarry 4y ago
    I want to be clear, I'm not saying being trans is or is not an ideology in and of itself, but that doesn't mean there are no ideologies that revolve around it.
    - freejazz 4y ago
      So what? By that notion everything else is a cis ideology. I guess it has never occurred to you that there is a point to how much gender ideology you take for granted when it's just being straight and heteronormative.
    - flangola7 4y ago
      What ideologies revolve around it that don't revolve around being cis? I genuinely have no idea what you're referencing.