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I hear you and doubt nothing about your plight, but frankly that feels like a you problem. I can sympathize while also rejecting the idea that I should have to

I hear you and doubt nothing about your plight, but frankly that feels like a you problem. I can sympathize while also rejecting the idea that I should have to come into the office so your not lonely. Have you considered a co-working space? It seems like that could get you what your looking for. Beyond that I'd look to get creative around finding ways to get social outside work. A martial arts or social dance class for example. Frankly I think it's much healthier if your coworkers aren't the core of your social life. FWIW I too had this problem at the start of the pandemic. My solution was to build a gym and workout with my friends 3x a week. Obviously this isn't a solution for your plight in a new city.

cal85 4y ago
> frankly that feels like a you problem It's also a me problem, so there's at least two of us.
- Gigachad 4y ago
  I’ve asked around my friend and coworkers group all 20s and everyone feels this way. Remote work is terrible for young people.
  - smashers1114 4y ago
    Not true of my friend and coworker group. You should think carefully of confounding factors before taking anecdotal data and extrapolating to something that applies to a much larger group.
  - Insanity 4y ago
    Anecdata, but my friends in the 22 - 26 range don't feel this way. _But_, they have an active social life (football club together) and go out together every weekend or every other weekend. And they don't mind remote work. So I don't think it's an age issue, but more a socializing issue?
    - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
      I have a strong social group but am also in the single 20s group, and realized I cannot stand remote work.
    - Gigachad 4y ago
      It probably would have been better if I hadn’t moved out of my parents house. For a brief moment I was living the dream in the city with a 5 minute walk to work, then I found myself remote working sitting on a Monday thinking about the dinner party with friends I’ve planned for Saturday for the weekly social interaction.
      - projectazorian 4y ago
        Your username is “gigachad” and you never considered the option of going to a gym on weekdays? Not going to say I have made lifetime friends at the gym but I have nice conversations with other regulars fairly often, it’s a good serotonin top-up. Even works for finding romantic partners as well if you’re not creepy about it, in fact two regulars at my gym just got married. There’s always the bar as well but of course alcohol-based socializing is not quite so healthy.
        Gigachad 4y ago
        Yes I’ve spent significant time at the gym. It doesn’t fill the void of spending 8 hours working alone. I have so many great memories of work from 6-3 years ago, but 3 to now is just a void, sitting at home on Teams calls. What makes things worse is my city has the oldest population in the country so there is hardly anything going on outside of work as well. I've made the decision to move to a bigger city where I can work in office with everyone along with every other benefit of a larger population.
        watwut 4y ago
        To be fair, gym is fairly individual activity here. You will be seen as annoying if you try to interact with others.
- dag11 4y ago
  Me three. I happen to have a strong friend group, but being single and living alone, the first few months of the pandemic were miserable from a solitary confinement standpoint. Even in recent years if I have to WFH for any reason, it's just the worst thing. Plus I'm just not productive when I'm working home alone. I'm extremely thankful that my company is mostly comprised of people who prefer and thrive working in our one office. And no, I'm not using my coworkers as my friend group. Despite loving some of my work friends, my strongest friends are all outside the office. But the office environment and the people in it give me life. When it comes time to look for a next job (if ever), the biggest requirement by far will be a working environment that's mostly, if not entirely, in office. I'm 27 for reference, but I've felt this way ever since the start of my career.
  - kyawzazaw 4y ago
    Isn't the pandemic the issue here though?
- lumost 4y ago
  Was a me problem as well, I joined a local coworking space, started grad school, and joined a local community focused CrossFit. I used to love the office, but I never see anyone there. Once is started focusing on local community activities things got better. I’d suggest adjusting your hours such that 5-8 pm are free for social activities. I usually start work at 10, break for dinner, and then do an hour or two before bed.
- Volundr 4y ago
  100%, I'm sure there is far more than two of you. As mentioned I had the problem at the start of the pandemic and had to reflect on why work was the majority of my social life, and I think that reflection led me to a better place. That turn of phrase was to meant to mean it's your problem to find a solution too, I should not have to change my behavior to accommodate you wishing for a bustling office. It was not meant to imply that you are alone in feeling that way and I apologize if it was taken that way. Anyone having a hard time with remote is in good company. Again if they are available in your area I'd recommend checking out co-working spaces. They are great ways to work around others who feel the same as you, and, as a bonus won't come and go with the job. Part of the reason I feel so strongly that your core socialization shouldn't be work is because so many of those connections, even the ones you thought were close, will disappear with the job.
- lairv 4y ago
  At least three you can count me in as well It's funny how people (in this thread and in general when the topic comes) find infuriating the idea of making friends or just socialize at work, when most friendships starts because some people happen to spend 8h/day at the same school/university
  - hypothesis 4y ago
    It’s funny how people find it necessary to participate in in-group/out-group dynamics/politics at work, long past high school. What if one could get paid for doing a job without any of that by skipping “socialize at work” altogether?
    - brewdad 4y ago
      That works fine until your workplace is 3 people or more. Human nature can’t be wished away.
      - antisthenes 4y ago
        There's a thing called CC on your email client. It certainly lets you add more than 3 people.
  - virtual_void 4y ago
    I don’t see people finding the fact infuriating. People are upset because they feel like people are asking them to come in to the office because someone else wants to socialise. Enforced socialisation doesn’t seem reasonable any more than denying that some people like to socialise at work. Two sets of people, two different needs.
    - lairv 4y ago
      I don't agree with the first sentence but it's just the feeling I have when reading some posts I agree with the rest though, now that people had a taste of WFH, you can't force them to come to office just for the sake of socialization. My point was to acknowledge the issue that some people used to see work as a place to socialize just like high-school or university, and this way of socializing has been suddenly taken away from them with WFH, and there is nothing weird in that
asdadsdad 4y ago
This is much more than a one person's problem, but it's a general issue that many older people with well-established lives don't sympathize with unfortunately. As much as others can deny, work is source of most people's friendships, relationships, mentorships, and other social interactions. There's hardly a substitute for that outside.
- camgunz 4y ago
  It's a symptom of societies that require you to work way too much and get everything (status, health care, socialization) from your job.
  - bee_rider 4y ago
    This is true but also “fix all of society” is a hard first step and there are folks who are unhappy now.
    - camgunz 4y ago
      Oh I'm not saying that, I'm saying this is HN and most people posting here have the ability to take a step back from work and build a social life for the sake of their mental health. Working yourself literally to death isn't cool. I also think it's fair to say that a lot of people are happy going to work and a lot of people really aren't. I feel like all of these threads are super passionate with one side trying to convince the (super unconvince-able) other side, which is why my responses are something like "get a situation together that works for you". "Convince millions of other people they're wrong and you're right about something they care about deeply" is a steeper climb.
  - asdadsdad 4y ago
    Would you like college to be remote too? School? Let's all wake up in our pijamas, hop on a zoom and live most of our lives like that?
    - ipaddr 4y ago
DiggyJohnson 4y ago
I can second the GP’s testimony, even though I’m not new to my city / have a decent social life outside work. The only thing that fixed up was moving to a company that was mostly in-office, with a few people hybrid/remote. Being able to interact in person with people working on the same project as me was rejuvenating, and that might be understating it.
jltsiren 4y ago
You should look at the bigger picture. People usually find friends as a byproduct of of some activity, such as work, studies, hobbies, or activism. If you remove the activity people spend a third of their waking hours on from the list, the result is a massive reduction in the number of friends people have. And it's going to hit the people who can't easily make friends the hardest. This is not an individual problem. It's an issue that affects the entire society. Social isolation feeds many undesirable things, such as political polarization and extremism. If a society wants to survive, it has to deal with the issue somehow.
- Volundr 4y ago
  > This is not an individual problem. It's an issue that affects the entire society. Social isolation feeds many undesirable things, such as political polarization and extremism. If a society wants to survive, it has to deal with the issue somehow. Agreed, and I think the best way is for people to realize that "the people I chat with at the water-cooler" are not my friends, and take action based on that. Job loss and retirement are often terribly isolating events for people for exactly the reason your specify. Work is 1/2 of their waking life and they rely on it too heavily for their social needs. Forcing the majority who prefer work from home to work from the office because a minority of people will feel lonely does not "benefit society". It hides a real problem that some people have while sacrificing the rest of us to do so. If the majority of us wanted to work in the office this would be a non-issue. GP would've simply gone to the office, found the majority of their co-workers there and been perfectly happy, while those of us who wanted WFH were happily home. Better to tackle the problem head on than sweep it under the rug.
  - jltsiren 4y ago
    The friends you meet at work are no different from the friends you meet at dance/martial arts class. They are tied to an activity, and if you quit the activity, you are likely to lose most of them. The core problem is that remote work can easily mean 8 hours/day of social isolation. Especially because those are the hours people have the most energy to try new things. If people spend that time avoiding social contacts, they are obviously not going to make many friends. Historically, neighbors were a key source of friends, because they were the community you lived in. 20th century changed that. Today neighbors are simply people who happen to sleep near you temporarily. They are probably away from home during the day, their jobs are unrelated to yours, and they will likely relocate sooner or later. Who will form the community you will spend your time with by default, if it's no longer your neighbors or coworkers?

cal85 4y ago

> frankly that feels like a you problem It's also a me problem, so there's at least two of us.

Gigachad 4y ago
I’ve asked around my friend and coworkers group all 20s and everyone feels this way. Remote work is terrible for young people.
- smashers1114 4y ago
  Not true of my friend and coworker group. You should think carefully of confounding factors before taking anecdotal data and extrapolating to something that applies to a much larger group.
- Insanity 4y ago
  Anecdata, but my friends in the 22 - 26 range don't feel this way. _But_, they have an active social life (football club together) and go out together every weekend or every other weekend. And they don't mind remote work. So I don't think it's an age issue, but more a socializing issue?
  - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
    I have a strong social group but am also in the single 20s group, and realized I cannot stand remote work.
  - Gigachad 4y ago
    It probably would have been better if I hadn’t moved out of my parents house. For a brief moment I was living the dream in the city with a 5 minute walk to work, then I found myself remote working sitting on a Monday thinking about the dinner party with friends I’ve planned for Saturday for the weekly social interaction.
    - projectazorian 4y ago
      Your username is “gigachad” and you never considered the option of going to a gym on weekdays? Not going to say I have made lifetime friends at the gym but I have nice conversations with other regulars fairly often, it’s a good serotonin top-up. Even works for finding romantic partners as well if you’re not creepy about it, in fact two regulars at my gym just got married. There’s always the bar as well but of course alcohol-based socializing is not quite so healthy.
      - Gigachad 4y ago
        Yes I’ve spent significant time at the gym. It doesn’t fill the void of spending 8 hours working alone. I have so many great memories of work from 6-3 years ago, but 3 to now is just a void, sitting at home on Teams calls. What makes things worse is my city has the oldest population in the country so there is hardly anything going on outside of work as well. I've made the decision to move to a bigger city where I can work in office with everyone along with every other benefit of a larger population.
      - watwut 4y ago
        To be fair, gym is fairly individual activity here. You will be seen as annoying if you try to interact with others.
dag11 4y ago
Me three. I happen to have a strong friend group, but being single and living alone, the first few months of the pandemic were miserable from a solitary confinement standpoint. Even in recent years if I have to WFH for any reason, it's just the worst thing. Plus I'm just not productive when I'm working home alone. I'm extremely thankful that my company is mostly comprised of people who prefer and thrive working in our one office. And no, I'm not using my coworkers as my friend group. Despite loving some of my work friends, my strongest friends are all outside the office. But the office environment and the people in it give me life. When it comes time to look for a next job (if ever), the biggest requirement by far will be a working environment that's mostly, if not entirely, in office. I'm 27 for reference, but I've felt this way ever since the start of my career.
- kyawzazaw 4y ago
  Isn't the pandemic the issue here though?
lumost 4y ago
Was a me problem as well, I joined a local coworking space, started grad school, and joined a local community focused CrossFit. I used to love the office, but I never see anyone there. Once is started focusing on local community activities things got better. I’d suggest adjusting your hours such that 5-8 pm are free for social activities. I usually start work at 10, break for dinner, and then do an hour or two before bed.
Volundr 4y ago
100%, I'm sure there is far more than two of you. As mentioned I had the problem at the start of the pandemic and had to reflect on why work was the majority of my social life, and I think that reflection led me to a better place. That turn of phrase was to meant to mean it's your problem to find a solution too, I should not have to change my behavior to accommodate you wishing for a bustling office. It was not meant to imply that you are alone in feeling that way and I apologize if it was taken that way. Anyone having a hard time with remote is in good company. Again if they are available in your area I'd recommend checking out co-working spaces. They are great ways to work around others who feel the same as you, and, as a bonus won't come and go with the job. Part of the reason I feel so strongly that your core socialization shouldn't be work is because so many of those connections, even the ones you thought were close, will disappear with the job.
lairv 4y ago
At least three you can count me in as well It's funny how people (in this thread and in general when the topic comes) find infuriating the idea of making friends or just socialize at work, when most friendships starts because some people happen to spend 8h/day at the same school/university
- hypothesis 4y ago
  It’s funny how people find it necessary to participate in in-group/out-group dynamics/politics at work, long past high school. What if one could get paid for doing a job without any of that by skipping “socialize at work” altogether?
  - brewdad 4y ago
    That works fine until your workplace is 3 people or more. Human nature can’t be wished away.
    - antisthenes 4y ago
      There's a thing called CC on your email client. It certainly lets you add more than 3 people.
- virtual_void 4y ago
  I don’t see people finding the fact infuriating. People are upset because they feel like people are asking them to come in to the office because someone else wants to socialise. Enforced socialisation doesn’t seem reasonable any more than denying that some people like to socialise at work. Two sets of people, two different needs.
  - lairv 4y ago
    I don't agree with the first sentence but it's just the feeling I have when reading some posts I agree with the rest though, now that people had a taste of WFH, you can't force them to come to office just for the sake of socialization. My point was to acknowledge the issue that some people used to see work as a place to socialize just like high-school or university, and this way of socializing has been suddenly taken away from them with WFH, and there is nothing weird in that

asdadsdad 4y ago

This is much more than a one person's problem, but it's a general issue that many older people with well-established lives don't sympathize with unfortunately. As much as others can deny, work is source of most people's friendships, relationships, mentorships, and other social interactions. There's hardly a substitute for that outside.

camgunz 4y ago
It's a symptom of societies that require you to work way too much and get everything (status, health care, socialization) from your job.
- bee_rider 4y ago
  This is true but also “fix all of society” is a hard first step and there are folks who are unhappy now.
  - camgunz 4y ago
    Oh I'm not saying that, I'm saying this is HN and most people posting here have the ability to take a step back from work and build a social life for the sake of their mental health. Working yourself literally to death isn't cool. I also think it's fair to say that a lot of people are happy going to work and a lot of people really aren't. I feel like all of these threads are super passionate with one side trying to convince the (super unconvince-able) other side, which is why my responses are something like "get a situation together that works for you". "Convince millions of other people they're wrong and you're right about something they care about deeply" is a steeper climb.
- asdadsdad 4y ago
  Would you like college to be remote too? School? Let's all wake up in our pijamas, hop on a zoom and live most of our lives like that?
  - ipaddr 4y ago

DiggyJohnson 4y ago

I can second the GP’s testimony, even though I’m not new to my city / have a decent social life outside work. The only thing that fixed up was moving to a company that was mostly in-office, with a few people hybrid/remote. Being able to interact in person with people working on the same project as me was rejuvenating, and that might be understating it.

jltsiren 4y ago

You should look at the bigger picture. People usually find friends as a byproduct of of some activity, such as work, studies, hobbies, or activism. If you remove the activity people spend a third of their waking hours on from the list, the result is a massive reduction in the number of friends people have. And it's going to hit the people who can't easily make friends the hardest. This is not an individual problem. It's an issue that affects the entire society. Social isolation feeds many undesirable things, such as political polarization and extremism. If a society wants to survive, it has to deal with the issue somehow.

Volundr 4y ago
> This is not an individual problem. It's an issue that affects the entire society. Social isolation feeds many undesirable things, such as political polarization and extremism. If a society wants to survive, it has to deal with the issue somehow. Agreed, and I think the best way is for people to realize that "the people I chat with at the water-cooler" are not my friends, and take action based on that. Job loss and retirement are often terribly isolating events for people for exactly the reason your specify. Work is 1/2 of their waking life and they rely on it too heavily for their social needs. Forcing the majority who prefer work from home to work from the office because a minority of people will feel lonely does not "benefit society". It hides a real problem that some people have while sacrificing the rest of us to do so. If the majority of us wanted to work in the office this would be a non-issue. GP would've simply gone to the office, found the majority of their co-workers there and been perfectly happy, while those of us who wanted WFH were happily home. Better to tackle the problem head on than sweep it under the rug.
- jltsiren 4y ago
  The friends you meet at work are no different from the friends you meet at dance/martial arts class. They are tied to an activity, and if you quit the activity, you are likely to lose most of them. The core problem is that remote work can easily mean 8 hours/day of social isolation. Especially because those are the hours people have the most energy to try new things. If people spend that time avoiding social contacts, they are obviously not going to make many friends. Historically, neighbors were a key source of friends, because they were the community you lived in. 20th century changed that. Today neighbors are simply people who happen to sleep near you temporarily. They are probably away from home during the day, their jobs are unrelated to yours, and they will likely relocate sooner or later. Who will form the community you will spend your time with by default, if it's no longer your neighbors or coworkers?