4 ms·

A lot like how everyone is an Engineer these days. Software Engineers that just write CRUD apps, Software Architects who just read docs, Systems Engineers who

by Alupis 4y ago

A lot like how everyone is an Engineer these days. Software Engineers that just write CRUD apps, Software Architects who just read docs, Systems Engineers who just follow guides, Support Engineers who just answer phone calls and tickets, etc. Title inflation has been creeping up for many years. It's everywhere.

notyourwork 4y ago
What is a software engineer?
- brian_herman 4y ago
  Software engineers design and develop computer programs and applications.
  - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
    I thought that’s a software developer?
  - gongle 4y ago
    So a programmer
    - rhtgrg 4y ago
      I'd say a programmer is to a software engineer as a handyman is to an architect. Can a handyman do the "dirty work" of most projects? Sure. Can they design a skyscraper to spec, tell you exactly what to expect in terms of resources and timeline, and roll with the punches of logistics and competing priorities? Probably not, unless they were already an architect just doing the job of a handyman. That being said, as someone with a software engineering degree, I can safely say that most companies don't need engineers and can get by just fine with programmers. Anyway, in this industry there are many architects working as handymen and vice versa.
      - LarryMullins 4y ago
        I'd rather be called a handyman than a "Generalist Labor Engineer"
      - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
        Can an architect actually put the pieces together? Do they know where to source materials? Do they understand how to order and schedule the construction of a design? Do they "just get" why a particular combination of materials at a specific point in a structure is going to cause problems, because they've seen it over and over? Can they even operate all the tools? Probably not, unless they used to actually do construction before becoming an architect.
        pedrosorio 4y ago
        The answer to most of your questions is yes, although obviously most architects are not proficient in operating most tools used in construction because that's not their job. > Can an architect actually put the pieces together? Unclear what this means, but architects have plenty of training in doing "manual work". Building models requires a lot more precision than most things in construction. > Do they know where to source materials? That's part of their job description. > Do they understand how to order and schedule the construction of a design? Definitely part of their job description.
        PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
        The real truth of the matter is "it depends". I have about a half-dozen friends as architects in the US, and only 1 of them could do any of the things I mentioned. All have been practising residential and commercial and government architects for > 30 years.
  - ebjaas_2022 4y ago
    It's a person who applies engineering principles to the design and implementation of software. It's about the "rigidity" of the methods that are used to construct the software. If the software is just cobbled together, it's not "engineered".
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- StevePerkins 4y ago
  There is no such thing as a "software engineer", period. An "engineer" is someone who works in a technical profession with a governing body. Either the State, or an entity that might as well be the State. An engineer is certified by that governing body, and given a license to practice the profession. An engineer can have their license suspended or rescinded, in the event of professional misconduct or malpractice. Whether through law, or de facto through insurance company practices, employers face liability if they employ non-licensed engineers. So an engineer is someone who has the leverage to push back against employer pressure to commit malpractice. Computer programmers / software developers have none of these things. Certifications are a joke, and meaningless beyond the entry level. We are pressured by employers to commit malpractice on a near-daily basis, and call it "tech debt" (management at my current company is pushing the even more euphemistic term "tech improvement opportunities"). Without a governing body and licensing, it is impossible for us to be "engineers" in any real sense of the professional term. With respect to Margaret Hamilton, we can only try to emulate an engineering profession as best we can, by evangelizing professional standards and pushing back on malpractice pressure where we can.
  - 908B64B197 4y ago
    > There is no such thing as a "software engineer", period. That's a bold statement. Would you argue, for instance, that someone graduating from MIT EECS[0] or Stanford Engineering[1] isn't qualified to use the tittle of Engineer? > An engineer is certified by that governing body, and given a license to practice the profession. An engineer can have their license suspended or rescinded, in the event of professional misconduct or malpractice. I think you are confused with the PE regulations. [2] [0] https://www.eecs.mit.edu/ https://www.eecs.mit.edu/ [1] https://engineering.stanford.edu/students-academics/academics/undergraduate-degree-programs https://engineering.stanford.edu/students-academics/academic... [2] https://ncees.org/about/ https://ncees.org/about/
    - StevePerkins 4y ago
      Has a governing body issued you a license, without which one cannot practice your profession? No? Then indeed, you are not an "engineer" in the sense of a profession, as with doctors and lawyers and CPA's, etc. This is wholly orthogonal to the prestige of whichever college you graduated. Note that even on your own Stanford and MIT links above, they reserve the term "engineering" for programs OTHER THAN "Computer Science" (e.g. "Chemical Engineering", "Electrical Engineering", etc). Show me a "Software Engineering" program at any accredited university. There's no confusion, I am 100% talking about PE regulations. One requires a license to practice chemical engineering, electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, all but the most entry-level roles in aerospace engineering, etc. Employers effectively cannot hire non-licensed workers for those positions. If that does not apply to your job, then you are an "engineer" only in the sense of LinkedIn puffery. Mind you, this applies to all us (myself included) in the software development field. I'm not trying to be a gatekeeper. Rather, the complete absence of gatekeeping is the entire point here.
abofh 4y ago
I'm a cloud architect thank you very much - I take ephemeral balls of vaporware designed by software architects, created by software engineers, documented for software architects to build structure for support engineers who can help bring on clients for my contract holders latest ephemeral ball of vaporware.
sublinear 4y ago
It's the "just" part that gets me. These jobs are not trivial regardless of the silly titles.
- Alupis 4y ago
  You don't get to call yourself an Engineer because you copy/paste CRUD apps together... or at least you used to not be able to. The engineering has already been done long ago by someone much more talented and knowledgeable. That is what a programmer or developer does. Engineering implies a lot more than just cobbling together code blocks and libraries. Yet, that's what 99% of Software Engineers spend their days doing. It would be akin to going out to a construction site and finding people doing rough-ins and roofing with Engineering titles. That is where the software world is currently - "Engineers" in the field doing rough-ins and roofing.
  - nsxwolf 4y ago
    You do get to call yourself that, though. This is a bit like saying "irregardless is not a word" when it's in the dictionary now. Calling yourself a "programmer" will be detrimental to your career, so why do it?
    - Alupis 4y ago
      > Calling yourself a "programmer" will be detrimental to your career, Ah, yes. There is the crux of the issue, isn't it? People called themselves Engineers to advance their careers artificially (sounds really nice and impressive, etc). Now, everyone is an Engineer, making the Engineer word have significantly less meaning. Today, a Software Engineer is largely a Software Developer of 10 years ago. Just like economic inflation - title inflation devalues titles, which causes people to inflate their own titles further to stand out once again - which becomes a negative feedback loop.
      - nonethewiser 4y ago
        People call themselves Engineers because thats their title. Do you expect such people to make up a different one?
EFreethought 4y ago
I was a software developer at Bank of America for eight years. I had two titles: "Assistant Vice President" and "Systems Engineer". I preferred to use "Systems Engineer" because if I said I was an "Assistant Vice President" at a bank, people would think I one of the people approving loans.
908B64B197 4y ago
> A lot like how everyone is an Engineer these days. But did they graduate from Engineering school?
ortusdux 4y ago
In Canada and parts of the US, Engineer is a protected title. https://engineerscanada.ca/news-and-events/news/who-can-use-the-title-engineer https://engineerscanada.ca/news-and-events/news/who-can-use-...
- Alupis 4y ago
  In the US, certain fields are protected via licensing boards and required degrees. One cannot just become a Civil Engineer, for example, simply by adding that title to their Email Signature.
  - adolph 4y ago
    I’m pretty sure Woz would have an official looking ID proclaiming him to be “Civilian Enginer” https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34566738 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34566738
- astrange 4y ago
  They need the respect to make up for the lower pay and even less affordable housing.
- nonethewiser 4y ago
  what parts of the US?
  - chrismcb 4y ago
    I was going to say Oregon. But apparently a judge ruled it unconstitutional. https://www.theregister.com/2019/01/02/oregon_engineer_license_laws/#:~:text=The%20state%20rules%20prohibited%20individuals,as%20professional%20engineers%20in%20Oregon https://www.theregister.com/2019/01/02/oregon_engineer_licen....
nonethewiser 4y ago
Why do you think "engineer" should be a special title?
- jq-r 4y ago
  I come from an engineering family, and "engineers" here are one big legally recognized tribe, or pretty much a social class. In reality that just means that they've finished a specific college where they get "engineer with diploma" title. Same with doctors or lawyers. Everyone else is ona a lower wrung of the ladder and there is nothing they can do about it later. So "of course" a software engineer is a contradiction is terms (as an electrical engineer said here). How can one be a engineer if you didn't go to an engineering college? It doesn't matter if a engineer's career consisted of selling ice creams, that person is a poor engineer and thats that. I actually met a "engineer" friend of my parents who designed the major parts of a traffic roundabout near my home. It is the worst designed roundabout I've seen and there is at least one car crash per day there. Every now and then people end up in ER. We chatted for a short bit, and touched on those crash reports. He just said dismissively: "people should just drive better". So that's engineering for you.

by Alupis 4y ago

notyourwork 4y ago

What is a software engineer?

brian_herman 4y ago
Software engineers design and develop computer programs and applications.
- TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
  I thought that’s a software developer?
- gongle 4y ago
  So a programmer
  - rhtgrg 4y ago
    I'd say a programmer is to a software engineer as a handyman is to an architect. Can a handyman do the "dirty work" of most projects? Sure. Can they design a skyscraper to spec, tell you exactly what to expect in terms of resources and timeline, and roll with the punches of logistics and competing priorities? Probably not, unless they were already an architect just doing the job of a handyman. That being said, as someone with a software engineering degree, I can safely say that most companies don't need engineers and can get by just fine with programmers. Anyway, in this industry there are many architects working as handymen and vice versa.
    - LarryMullins 4y ago
      I'd rather be called a handyman than a "Generalist Labor Engineer"
    - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
      Can an architect actually put the pieces together? Do they know where to source materials? Do they understand how to order and schedule the construction of a design? Do they "just get" why a particular combination of materials at a specific point in a structure is going to cause problems, because they've seen it over and over? Can they even operate all the tools? Probably not, unless they used to actually do construction before becoming an architect.
      - pedrosorio 4y ago
        The answer to most of your questions is yes, although obviously most architects are not proficient in operating most tools used in construction because that's not their job. > Can an architect actually put the pieces together? Unclear what this means, but architects have plenty of training in doing "manual work". Building models requires a lot more precision than most things in construction. > Do they know where to source materials? That's part of their job description. > Do they understand how to order and schedule the construction of a design? Definitely part of their job description.
        PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
        The real truth of the matter is "it depends". I have about a half-dozen friends as architects in the US, and only 1 of them could do any of the things I mentioned. All have been practising residential and commercial and government architects for > 30 years.
- ebjaas_2022 4y ago
  It's a person who applies engineering principles to the design and implementation of software. It's about the "rigidity" of the methods that are used to construct the software. If the software is just cobbled together, it's not "engineered".
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
StevePerkins 4y ago
There is no such thing as a "software engineer", period. An "engineer" is someone who works in a technical profession with a governing body. Either the State, or an entity that might as well be the State. An engineer is certified by that governing body, and given a license to practice the profession. An engineer can have their license suspended or rescinded, in the event of professional misconduct or malpractice. Whether through law, or de facto through insurance company practices, employers face liability if they employ non-licensed engineers. So an engineer is someone who has the leverage to push back against employer pressure to commit malpractice. Computer programmers / software developers have none of these things. Certifications are a joke, and meaningless beyond the entry level. We are pressured by employers to commit malpractice on a near-daily basis, and call it "tech debt" (management at my current company is pushing the even more euphemistic term "tech improvement opportunities"). Without a governing body and licensing, it is impossible for us to be "engineers" in any real sense of the professional term. With respect to Margaret Hamilton, we can only try to emulate an engineering profession as best we can, by evangelizing professional standards and pushing back on malpractice pressure where we can.
- 908B64B197 4y ago
  > There is no such thing as a "software engineer", period. That's a bold statement. Would you argue, for instance, that someone graduating from MIT EECS[0] or Stanford Engineering[1] isn't qualified to use the tittle of Engineer? > An engineer is certified by that governing body, and given a license to practice the profession. An engineer can have their license suspended or rescinded, in the event of professional misconduct or malpractice. I think you are confused with the PE regulations. [2] [0] https://www.eecs.mit.edu/ https://www.eecs.mit.edu/ [1] https://engineering.stanford.edu/students-academics/academics/undergraduate-degree-programs https://engineering.stanford.edu/students-academics/academic... [2] https://ncees.org/about/ https://ncees.org/about/
  - StevePerkins 4y ago
    Has a governing body issued you a license, without which one cannot practice your profession? No? Then indeed, you are not an "engineer" in the sense of a profession, as with doctors and lawyers and CPA's, etc. This is wholly orthogonal to the prestige of whichever college you graduated. Note that even on your own Stanford and MIT links above, they reserve the term "engineering" for programs OTHER THAN "Computer Science" (e.g. "Chemical Engineering", "Electrical Engineering", etc). Show me a "Software Engineering" program at any accredited university. There's no confusion, I am 100% talking about PE regulations. One requires a license to practice chemical engineering, electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, all but the most entry-level roles in aerospace engineering, etc. Employers effectively cannot hire non-licensed workers for those positions. If that does not apply to your job, then you are an "engineer" only in the sense of LinkedIn puffery. Mind you, this applies to all us (myself included) in the software development field. I'm not trying to be a gatekeeper. Rather, the complete absence of gatekeeping is the entire point here.

abofh 4y ago

I'm a cloud architect thank you very much - I take ephemeral balls of vaporware designed by software architects, created by software engineers, documented for software architects to build structure for support engineers who can help bring on clients for my contract holders latest ephemeral ball of vaporware.

sublinear 4y ago

It's the "just" part that gets me. These jobs are not trivial regardless of the silly titles.

Alupis 4y ago
You don't get to call yourself an Engineer because you copy/paste CRUD apps together... or at least you used to not be able to. The engineering has already been done long ago by someone much more talented and knowledgeable. That is what a programmer or developer does. Engineering implies a lot more than just cobbling together code blocks and libraries. Yet, that's what 99% of Software Engineers spend their days doing. It would be akin to going out to a construction site and finding people doing rough-ins and roofing with Engineering titles. That is where the software world is currently - "Engineers" in the field doing rough-ins and roofing.
- nsxwolf 4y ago
  You do get to call yourself that, though. This is a bit like saying "irregardless is not a word" when it's in the dictionary now. Calling yourself a "programmer" will be detrimental to your career, so why do it?
  - Alupis 4y ago
    > Calling yourself a "programmer" will be detrimental to your career, Ah, yes. There is the crux of the issue, isn't it? People called themselves Engineers to advance their careers artificially (sounds really nice and impressive, etc). Now, everyone is an Engineer, making the Engineer word have significantly less meaning. Today, a Software Engineer is largely a Software Developer of 10 years ago. Just like economic inflation - title inflation devalues titles, which causes people to inflate their own titles further to stand out once again - which becomes a negative feedback loop.
    - nonethewiser 4y ago
      People call themselves Engineers because thats their title. Do you expect such people to make up a different one?

EFreethought 4y ago

I was a software developer at Bank of America for eight years. I had two titles: "Assistant Vice President" and "Systems Engineer". I preferred to use "Systems Engineer" because if I said I was an "Assistant Vice President" at a bank, people would think I one of the people approving loans.

908B64B197 4y ago

> A lot like how everyone is an Engineer these days. But did they graduate from Engineering school?

ortusdux 4y ago

In Canada and parts of the US, Engineer is a protected title. https://engineerscanada.ca/news-and-events/news/who-can-use-the-title-engineer https://engineerscanada.ca/news-and-events/news/who-can-use-...

Alupis 4y ago
In the US, certain fields are protected via licensing boards and required degrees. One cannot just become a Civil Engineer, for example, simply by adding that title to their Email Signature.
- adolph 4y ago
  I’m pretty sure Woz would have an official looking ID proclaiming him to be “Civilian Enginer” https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34566738 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34566738
astrange 4y ago
They need the respect to make up for the lower pay and even less affordable housing.
nonethewiser 4y ago
what parts of the US?
- chrismcb 4y ago
  I was going to say Oregon. But apparently a judge ruled it unconstitutional. https://www.theregister.com/2019/01/02/oregon_engineer_license_laws/#:~:text=The%20state%20rules%20prohibited%20individuals,as%20professional%20engineers%20in%20Oregon https://www.theregister.com/2019/01/02/oregon_engineer_licen....

nonethewiser 4y ago

Why do you think "engineer" should be a special title?

jq-r 4y ago
I come from an engineering family, and "engineers" here are one big legally recognized tribe, or pretty much a social class. In reality that just means that they've finished a specific college where they get "engineer with diploma" title. Same with doctors or lawyers. Everyone else is ona a lower wrung of the ladder and there is nothing they can do about it later. So "of course" a software engineer is a contradiction is terms (as an electrical engineer said here). How can one be a engineer if you didn't go to an engineering college? It doesn't matter if a engineer's career consisted of selling ice creams, that person is a poor engineer and thats that. I actually met a "engineer" friend of my parents who designed the major parts of a traffic roundabout near my home. It is the worst designed roundabout I've seen and there is at least one car crash per day there. Every now and then people end up in ER. We chatted for a short bit, and touched on those crash reports. He just said dismissively: "people should just drive better". So that's engineering for you.