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The strategic use of titles to avoid overtime payments
- randyrand 4y agoIs this not the intention of the law? seems like they designed the law explicitly to encourage this.
- ajross 4y agoNo? They designed the law to require overtime wages be paid. They left a threshold in the law to permit existing conventions of non-hourly-measured "manager" positions, presumably because changing how those are administered was felt to be too disruptive. And sure, all rules can be gamed, so right at the threshold we see nonsense like this. But to argue that this was the intent is ridiculous. The law wasn't for these employees at the threshold, it was for the folks farther down the org chart. And it quite clearly works as intended for them, since they're being paid overtime.
- jacobsenscott 4y agoIt is saying you can be a customer service rep, and if you work overtime you are owed overtime pay. But they can "promote" you to customer service rep manager, raise your pay by a bit (but lower than your overtime pay would be), and have you continue to do the exact same job (maybe with some token manager duties thrown in) for the same or even more hours and not need to pay overtime. Was that the intention of the law? Idk - given the priorities of the people who make laws maybe it is.
- rizzom5000 4y agoIt's probably not the explicit intention, but I believe that an intelligent species would probably recognize that it's in their best interests to elect lawmakers who understand the concept of economic incentives and as a corollary; perverse incentives.
- astrange 4y agoMost perverse incentives aren't real, they're just cynicism. As an example every new safety technology like seat belts comes with complaints that it'll just encourage people to drive worse (fancy term "risk compensation") but in fact there's no evidence this happens.
- bbarn 4y agoThere is at least one piece of research however, that shows wearing a bicycle helmet (or being a male) causes people in cars to pass more closely presumably with an assumption that you're less at risk. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/09/060911102200.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/09/060911102200.h...
- crooked-v 4y agoThe law is pretty clear about it. There's just very little to no enforcement of it beyond private lawsuits because a significant proportion of the US population actively reject any action that would favor worker protection over corporate profit.
- MomoXenosaga 4y agoSomething strange happened to America. They were on the exact same socialist trajectory as the rest of the world but it went all wrong. And they are using their considerable superpower resources to drag the rest of us down with them.
- smegger001 4y agoprobably a combination of becoming the worlds industrial hegemon immediately after ww2 while the suddenly facing down communism. industrial jobs were well compensated the rest to the world was buying from us because ww2 bombing destroyed everyone else industrial base so there was money to spend, and socialism looked to much like the Soviets to the average American. then in the fallowing decades American labor unions became infiltrated and taken over by the mob (remember Jimmy Hoffa). the combine association of communism and organized crime gave it a bad smell the much of America.
- enragedcacti 4y agoI'm not sure what reading of FLSA would lead to that conclusion. The law defines the categories entirely with relation to how/how much you are paid and your job responsibilities. From the paper: > While salary, pay frequency, and whether a position is a learned profession are typically externally verifiable, whether a position satisfies the executive or administrative duties criteria depends on the employer’s assessment of the position’s responsibilities and is difficult to verify externally. Often, the only piece of externally observable information suggestive of a position’s duties is the job’s title. Thus, employers can strategically choose job titles to imply that a position involves managerial duties, and as such exempt from mandatory overtime payments, although the actual responsibilities of the position do not satisfy the executive or administrative duties tests
- jdlyga 4y agoOutside of the context of avoiding overtime payments, job title inflation is definitely used to help attract and retain employees. A few decades ago, a director level position was a manager of managers, and usually one of the key decision makers at a firm. Nowadays, you have many people with "director" in their job title who are team leads or senior individual contributors. It's not even really a problem. In fact, it's great to have a nice title and makes people feel important. It's more about adjusting your expectations of what someone's job title is vs what they actually do day to day.
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- taskforcegemini 4y agoinflate all the things! on a related note: to some people a phd has become a sign that that person has something to compensate for. a lot of equally or better skilled/knowledgable people do not have one
- pcthrowaway 4y agoI thought it was a sign that a candidate has poor cost-benefit analytical skills. Only half joking
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y agoHah. The same joke persists in MBA circles, where, as the joke goes, during your time here you learn how to evaluate why MBA degree was not a good idea.
- notesinthefield 4y agoMy MBA was free , got me a better job and I still think it was a waste of time.
- jfk13 4y agoSee also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34641549 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34641549.
- duxup 4y agoDo people not notice when it happens to them? I’m curious about how this works out for individuals. Do they get these titles, do the same thing as before and …just put in overtime for the same pay?
- JustSomeNobody 4y agoI'm sure they do. But the momentum to overcome the friction of doing something about it is too great for most people.
- duxup 4y agoI would just find it kind of obvious and weird... I don't doubt this happens in ways, but just title swapping seems like it would be kinda awkward and obvious.
- wahnfrieden 4y agoWage theft is by far the largest category of theft in the US so it’s not a surprise many get duped into these kind of schemes
- soperj 4y agoThere's also a trend where people leave, and they decide not to fill the positions, and instead you get no title, and no raise, and you get their work.
- acedTrex 4y agoLol, quiet hiring, the company version of quiet quitting
- sli 4y ago"Quiet quitting" was also a company thing that attempted to demonize workers for performing exactly their job descriptions. Hence it coming mostly out of nowhere before suddenly up and disappearing from business media rags when it didn't really work out.
- fsckboy 4y agoI think what drives the granting of bigger and better titles is the insatiable desire for same from young people who don't have a lot of work experience but are eager to feel like they are moving up the ladder of success quickly and their accomplishments are being recognized. (this is why a number of "famous" places use "Member Technical Staff with the single bump of Distinguished and it's also why you have the urge to roll your eyes when you encounter a teenaged C-suite looking for seed capital. not saying teens with a startup aren't worthy of respect, but you'll be apt to want to know "which one is the coder, designer, and marketer?") >We find widespread evidence of firms appearing to avoid paying overtime wages by exploiting a federal law that allows them to do so for employees termed as “managers” and paid a salary above a pre-defined dollar threshold. this is published by NBER, a very academic economics driven enterprise, so let me point out something they should have but didn't: TANSTAAFL. There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. And I'm not talking about the employers getting a free lunch. if you (tech workers) think you'll be able to convert your high-hourly-equivalent-wage into a higher-hourly-equivalent-wage-with-overtime-pay, no, not going to happen, at least not in the long term, unless of course your productivity were to climb by a commensurate amount. The market (labor supply and labor demand) sets the wages and TANSTAAFL. You might find a work-life balance that you personally like better (for instance no overtime pay, no overtime work) but that's not better for all people and after the payment system adjusts (for instance erode workers' base pay, then entice longer hours with larger overtime payments) it will settle into a new equilibrium which does not include free lunch.
- crooked-v 4y ago> if you (tech workers) think you'll be able to convert your high-hourly-equivalent-wage into a higher-hourly-equivalent-wage-with-overtime-pay, no, not going to happen, at least not in the long term, unless of course your productivity were to climb by a commensurate amount. This paper isn't about tech workers. It's about workers in general, and with an empahsis on workers in low-wage and high-hour industries like fast food and discount retail.
- fsckboy 4y ago> It's about workers in general, and with an empahsis on workers in low-wage and high-hour industries like fast food and discount retail the same economics applies, it's sort of the whole point of economics, it's generalizable, it's not a collection of special circumstances, nor is it escapable. hiring takes place because wages for the work are worth it, and hiring will decline if not. It's not a value judgement or a moral judgment, it's the same way you spend your own money, only if it's worth it. the audience here is tech workers so I used that to get the emotional resonance for the plight of the salaried worker.
- Hard_Space 4y agoI used to work at a well-known (all over the world) British magazine, where employees regularly received new titles unaccompanied by corresponding pay-rises. After a while we started an ongoing office meme about being promoted to 'Grand Vizier', and other meaningless and cheap 'title rewards'.
- jimt1234 4y agoBack in the 90s I worked in the corporate offices of a well-known fitness chain (they're open 24 hours, even though they're really not). I was approached about a promotion to a management position. I asked who I would be managing and was told, "No one. But you would manage all the servers." Huh? I already "manage all the servers"??? I was then told about the pay, and it was heavily implied that being a salaried employee was sooo great and they were doing me a huge favor. However, they must've thought I couldn't do basic math, because accepting the position would've been at least a 10% pay reduction. I rejected the offer, and they were really angry; they kept coming back to me, telling me how I was ruining my career. The director of HR even told me that IT-related jobs were hot, but would cool off soon, and I would regret not moving into management. I was young and dumb, but I wasn't that dumb. I knew what they were doing. I quit shortly after that.
- Finnucane 4y agoI'm holding out for either "Lord Admiral" or maybe "High Executioner".
- labster 4y agoI know, I wouldn’t give up overtime pay for a Grand Provost or Vice Chief Twit gig either. Maybe for Serene Doge, though.
- newsclues 4y agoMy requests to be referred to as Supreme Allied Commander have thus far been ignored.
- kibwen 4y agoI requested a promotion to Seven Star Engineer, but apparently only George Washington is eligible for that rank.
- LanceH 4y agoHMFWIC
- hnbear 4y agoFirst Sea Lord and First Lord of the Admiralty are both fantastic and very real titles, with long histories, along with Lord High Admiral of the United Kingdom, which is a bit harder to get. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Lord_of_the_Admiralty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Lord_of_the_Admiralty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Sea_Lord_and_Chief_of_the_Naval_Staff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Sea_Lord_and_Chief_of_th... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_High_Admiral_of_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_High_Admiral_of_the_Unite...
- rozap 4y agoMy title at my old job was was Supreme Commander, Strategic Synergy Group. People took titles way too seriously.
- Invictus0 4y agoAt my company we have the opposite problem, where they doubled the number of titles by creating "plus" levels. So there is junior, junior plus, mid, mid plus, etc. So if you get a promotion, you don't get the full raise to the next level AND you look like a clown when you write about it on linkedin.
- willis936 4y agoI'm willing to bet HR has a secret mapping to radford levels.
- andsoitis 4y agoYou can write whatever “title” you prefer on LinkedIn.
- bell-cot 4y agoCould be worse - you could be in the US Navy. Where you're slowly promoted from Lieutenant (junior grade), to Lieutenant, to Lieutenant Commander, to Commander. Then (after "Captain") comes Rear Admiral (lower half), Rear Admiral, Vice Admiral, Admiral, and (in theory) Fleet Admiral.
- aidenn0 4y agoAnd there's a long list of unwritten rules that, if you violate, you're soft-capped at LCdr. [edit] Also, what about Ensign?
- MisterBastahrd 4y agoBeen my opinion for a while now that any company that doesn't directly grant stocks to employees should be forbidden from using exempt status for those employees. Want them to work more? Pay them. On the flipside, I have a buddy who is one of the best Java devs in the DFW area who refused to become a manager and threatened to take his talent elsewhere. They carved out entire new levels for his software engineer job just to keep him happy. Before this, they had up to SDE IV. He was SDE VI when he left to join a consultancy when his salary became a concern. The consultancy ended up placing him back at the place he had already been working for because the company suddenly had a huge knowledge vacuum, and they eventually offered him a new position at SDE VII to get him back on the team.
- jopsen 4y agoFTA: > listing of managerial positions such as “Directors of First Impression,” whose jobs are otherwise equivalent to non-managerial employees (in this case, a front desk assistant). Wow, that's pretty brazen.
- xwdv 4y agoWhat tech worker though even works overtime? I barely work time!
- maerF0x0 4y agoTitle inflation is so absurd that now when I ask a company I just ignore the title and look at comp. Comp tells me how much value you think I can deliver in your org. If you wanna call me Senior while compensating me like someone who has cross team impact across 500 engineers, so be it, as long at the TC is there. If you wanna call me Staff but only rate me on how many API endpoints I can craft in a sprint, I doubt you'll be able to compensate me enough to care about your JD.
- elric 4y agoTitle inflation for the sake of egos is bad. But sometimes title inflation is a consequence of ridiculous compensation rules. Where I work, it's basically impossible to get a raise without a bump in title. Which basically means that if you did a good job negotiating your starting salary, you'll be stuck with your job title for a long time. But if you were too cheap at first, you'll move up in the ranks every year.
- bbarn 4y agoIt also wastes time in hiring. If I'm looking for a senior developer, I don't want someone with three years of experience who killed it at their company and got rapidly promoted (now, that doesn't mean I don't want them, but that's not a senior development role in my mind)
- Kamq 4y ago> It also wastes time in hiring Sure, but on the other side, if I have someone I want to hire, and the choice is give them an extra $XX thousand or let them pick their title, I'm going to pick the title. Or, hell, both. Both is an option too. I don't particularly care what title they want as long as they can provide the value I'm looking for.* *Sufficiently silly titles such as Chief Brace Sculptor, or nonsensical ones such as Head Monkey Spinner may require several weeks for me to stop giggling, but I'm willing to roll with it.
- gwright 4y agoLabor laws create all sorts of unintended consequences and secondary effects. In 2017 the Obama administration was getting ready to make a number of changes in the area of exempt vs non-exempt workers (i.e. overtime pay). The changes were advertised as a way to help workers get paid more fairly for overtime, but legislation rarely changes economic realities. By expanding the requirement to pay overtime they made it much more expensive to staff entry level management positions. In one non-profit that I was familiar with at the time, the rules would have required payroll to increase by $100,000 - $200,000/year (maybe more, I can't quite remember the details). As organizations do, they adapted by eliminating almost all of those entry level supervisory positions. People were moved down to hourly workers, with their hours severely constrained, moved up to more senior level management roles that avoided the overtime requirements, or the position was eliminated all together. I don't think anyone was happy with those changes within the organization but it was necessary to keep the organization fiscally viable given the new rules. It also made it much harder to move from an hourly position into management because the leap in capabilities and responsibilities was much greater. Perversely, the changes were not implemented by the Obama administration due to lawsuits that prevented their implementation at the last minute. By that time, any affected organization had already made the structural changes though. (I don't think the regulatory changes ever occurred). Anyway, this is a long way of saying the labor market always adjusts to regulatory constraints and TANSTAFL. The general economic principle that when costs increase, demand decreases isn't magically voided by legislation. Expensive labor leads to fewer jobs and makes it more difficult to absorb young people into the job market.
- DanielHB 4y agoAt my company they asked me what title I wanted, I said Senior Software Engineer. Missed opportunity...
- shagie 4y agoNote that this is not about exempt workers (which, if you are a software developer making more than $27.63 if paid on an hourly basis or $684 week on a salary basis you are exempt from the FLSA). This is about converting non-exempt workers who would normally be getting overtime pay of 1.5x to exempt workers through titles though the duties don't change... which is still against the letter and spirit of the law ( https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/WHD/legacy/files/fs17a_overview.pdf https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/WHD/legacy/files/fs17... ) but many employees that this is targeting aren't aware of that. To qualify for the administrative employee exemption, all of the following tests must be met: The employee must be compensated on a salary or fee basis (as defined in the regulations) at a rate not less than $684* per week; The employee’s primary duty must be the performance of office or non-manual work directly related to the management or general business operations of the employer or the employer’s customers; and The employee’s primary duty includes the exercise of discretion and independent judgment with respect to matters of significance. There are similar tests for learned professional, creative professional, and computer, and outside sales.
- Severian 4y ago$27.63 is such an absurdly low amount that it wouldn't even be considered a livable wage in some major metros.
- barry-cotter 4y agoIs this a joke? $1,105 a week is $55K a year and US GDP per capita (which is basically average earnings) is $69K a year. A lot of people live on less than that. Median income in the US is less than that, $44K. > The average personal income in the U.S. is $63,214. > The median income in the U.S. is $44,225. > The average American annual real wage was $67,521 in 2020. > The average U.S. household income is $87,864. > The median U.S. household income is $61,937 https://www.zippia.com/advice/average-american-income/ https://www.zippia.com/advice/average-american-income/
- Spooky23 4y ago
- mikestew 4y agoI actually had the opposite happen a long, long time ago. Started my new job on salary. Sysadmin on a bunch of remote Unix systems (yes, "Unix"), and systems programmer as well. As one might expected, it was a demanding job. That's fine, I liked it, and the first month went fine. Then a new manager gets the idea that we should be hourly. Why? My only reasonable guess is that he had some misguided idea that "salary" was for big-whigs like himself, and "hourly" is for the grunts under him. So now I have to punch a literal clock, like a fast-food worker or summat? Fine by me. I made fucking bank at that job, as one might imagine. Oh, I worked my ass off, but I got paid for every minute of it (and more, with overtime). What I can't imagine is how much payroll went up, and how he got away with continuing it.
- petsfed 4y agoDid he ever express that he thought it was for big-whigs [sic]? Did he put in long hours alongside you? Is there any possibility that the manager thought "we work these people like dogs, we should treat them better, the least we can do is pay them overtime"?
- jmyeet 4y agoRemember all the press about property theft, particularly on the lead up to the midterms? That timing was no accident. And then the Walgreens came out and admitted it was completely overblown? The biggest type of theft in the United States is wage theft, which this is an example of. Ask yourself why the media so rarely covers that.
- dilyevsky 4y agoSounds pretty tactical use to me
- prirun 4y agoI don't think anyone should work over 40 hours a week without overtime pay unless they are owners of the company or are getting 1.5 hours in comp time and overtime is voluntary.
- animitronix 4y agoBill Belichick is the Mona Lisa Vito on this topic
- whatever1 4y agoLol have they ever heard the title "Post-doc"? 10 times the work output for $40k per year.