7 ms·

Abolish the Department of Homeland Security

332 points by nextparadigms 15y ago

click170 15y ago
Link seems down, anyone have a mirror?
- deleted 15y ago
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- deleted 15y ago
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andrew_k 15y ago
Google Cache http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:pxxPIla6u9sJ:www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/01/abolish_the_dep.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:pxxPIla...
carbocation 15y ago
DHS is too inconsistent to be credible. The only flight I've ever missed (I was running late to a wedding), I missed because I had a tube of toothpaste in my carry-on. It was found to be small enough to be acceptable, but not until it had gone through a second round of X-ray. On another occasion, I was equally late to a connection flight (this time, not my fault), and I got through security despite having a bottle of water, a toiletry kit (including 5" blades), etc. Why? Well, I don't know and I don't really care. The fact of the matter is that they will give me an aluminum can on the flight anyway, so who cares how long of a blade I bring onboard in the first place? It's security theater no matter how you slice it.
- dguaraglia 15y ago
  Look up the term "security theater". That's exactly what they are doing. Well, that and buying extremely expensive machinery from a company partially owned by the very man, Michael Chertoff, who co-wrote the PATRIOT act and jump-started this whole stupid thing. Talk about revolving-door politics and corruption. That bothers me more than any pat-downs.
  - waffle_ss 15y ago
    Is there a list somewhere of all of these corrupt politicians / traitors? If not, I'm going to start a wiki. Who knows, maybe it will be useful if the winds of change ever blow through this country.
    - Peaker 15y ago
      That would be a great website -- though perhaps somewhat dangerous to run.
      - slowpoke 15y ago
        You could ask the Wikileaks folks and community around them for help. I'm sure they wouldn't be adverse to such a project.
    - SoftwareMaven 15y ago
      Is it too cynical to say "look at the congessional roster"? I think it would be hard to identify who are truly corrupt and who are doing what they think is right but get caught up in the machine. I would love an objective way of identifying that. What we really need is real campaign finance reform. Politicians need to get money for office from real, individual people, not lobbyists and corporations. Want different outcomes? Change the incentives.
    - rnemo 15y ago
      Wikileaks appears to be the best option out there at the moment. But while it's a good resource to mine for data, it is pretty useless to the average person who may want some easily discovered facts. If you're really serious about that wiki though, and would like some help, shoot me an email, you can find it in my profile.
    - dguaraglia 15y ago
      You know? This is not a bad idea. I've been wondering for months what kind of thing one could do to 'awaken' people about all these corrupts running stuff. It's not that they hide what they do. Oh, no! In general they are quite blatant about it. The problem is that most journalists (with the exceptions of people like Matt Taibbi and Greg Palast) can't be bothered to do their job and actually do some... well, journalism. So, I wonder if creating a compendium of these facts won't make it an easier job for the journalists in the mainstream media to pick them up and maybe expose them to the public a bit more. I'm making a big, big, assumption here that mainstream media actually gives a crap about this at all.
- smokeyj 15y ago
  Policing is Too Important to be Left to the Government: Economist Ed Stringham http://reason.com/blog/2011/10/26/policing-is-too-important-to-b http://reason.com/blog/2011/10/26/policing-is-too-important-...
- bdunbar 15y ago
  It was inconsistent before, too. Anecdote. In 1998 I went through Gate 1 to catch a flight. Realized I left something in my car. Out to get the thing, back through Gate 2, which was closer to my gate. Where an alert-looking agent pulled me aside, took out a candle I'd had in my bag [1] and wiped it down with what I assumed was a sniffer for explosives. This amused me because his sleepy-looking peer at Gate 1 had waved me through with no problems twenty minutes earlier. I don't think you can get consistency of effort/organization/process across a large organization of civilians. The only group I've been a part of that managed to come close is the US Marines. And most people will not be willing to subject themselves to 9 weeks of brainwashing in basic training, then the rigid hierarchy of command, for the sake of a job screening passengers. [1] Gift for sister-in-law
deleted 15y ago
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littleidea 15y ago
the link isn't just down, the domain is not resolving for me now
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adamrights 15y ago
Have you seen this: NY Times has an article. Good friend did the research and filed the FOIA: http://epic.org/2012/01/epic---foia-documents-reveal-h.html http://epic.org/2012/01/epic---foia-documents-reveal-h.html <---EPIC - FOIA Documents Reveal Homeland Security is Monitoring Political Dissent
adamrights 15y ago
They also hired contractors to monitor social networks: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3463850 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3463850
Flow 15y ago
I'm not a native english speaker, the word "homeland" just seems like a weird choice to me. It feels too patriotic and even a bit fascistic. I can't recall any public discussion about the name when they were created, but then I'm not from the US so I might have missed those. Also, I'm associating the word with "fatherland", from the post-WW2-nazis-won-movie with Rutger Hauer :-/
- brc 15y ago
  When it was coined, patriotism was all the rage. Yes, it is a weird name when looking externally. But it (like the PATRIOT act) is a product of the fear at the time. And it's time to dump both of those creations.
- gojomo 15y ago
  You intuition is right, it's kinda creepy to native speakers of American english, too. There was some discussion at the time, but not enough to modify the course of the barreling train in Washington DC that created the DHS. Here's one example from 2002: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/kausfiles_special/2002/06/the_trouble_with_homeland.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/kausfiles_sp...
- code_duck 15y ago
  Absolutely. I always referred to it as 'Homeland Security, Comrade'. But that's pretty much what they were after, a totalitarian fascist government with 'total information awareness', so it makes perfect sense.
- vacri 15y ago
  There are a great many native English speakers who make exactly the same association.
- wavephorm 15y ago
  It's a euphemism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemism The US government uses typical propaganda tactics like this, grease up the names of their authoritarian bills to make them sound nice, when in fact they are usually quite sinister. For example, the Patriot Act includes provisions for torturing and spying on Americans.
ck2 15y ago
Before the decade is out they will just rename it to do an end-run around public relations. Nothing will change and it's never going away because there's major money being made from it's fake foolishness already. You really think they are going to give up the "visual response teams" for searching people at bus and train stations (and even in traffic)? That's the gold topping of security theater. ZERO terrorists caught for all that money and other than the box cutters the original 9/11 would have still made it on the planes for all the rights violated and money spent. The should have just secured all airplane cockpit doors and called it a day but first rule of government, why spend just a million when you can potentially spend a billion and get lots of wartime powers.
Revisor 15y ago
So the argument is that DHS is ineffective and wasteful? I thought the article would talk about how DHS is dangerous because it systematically dismantles your freedom in exchange for omnipresent surveillance and faux security. Then again, I'm only watching it from the outside.
- chc 15y ago
  The security wouldn't be "faux" if the department were efficient and effective.
DanBC 15y ago
> TSA was created two months after the September 11 terrorist attacks, when Congress passed the Aviation and Transportation Security Act (ATSA) [.pdf] to keep the millions of Americans who travel each day safe and secure across numerous modes of transportation. The rise in death rates after 9/11 from people switching from safe air transport to dangerous road transport is well known by now. So it's surprising to see TSA still saying they're spending money to keep transport safe. That is blatantly not true. One man tries to set fire to plastic explosive stored in his shoe - now everyone has to take off their shoes. Meanwhile, thousands die in road traffic every year. I've travelled on California[1] roads. God almighty; for a nation obsessed with doing everything by car some parts of the US have an appalling road system. (I never knew why Americans were happy to drive cars with awful gas milage. Cheap gas doesn't quite answer that question. Cheap gas and bloody terrible road surfaces which need a big comfy car does.) You can kind of forgive Joe Sixpack for being bad at risk assessment and management. But a government department, spending millions and billions of public money? It's a disgusting waste.
DanielBMarkham 15y ago
I was reading along, nodding my head, then I got to this: Hard to argue with most of that, although abolishing the TSA isn't a good idea. Airport security should be rolled back to pre-9/11 levels, but someone is going to have to be in charge of it. Putting the airlines in charge of it doesn't make sense; their incentives are going to be passenger service rather than security. What? How many passengers can you service if the airport is unsafe? Is the author unaware of the hundreds of different types of businesses that operate in hostile environments yet manage to keep their customers safe as part of their service? Has he never walked into a fast-food restaurant on a weekend night and seen the security guards? Hell, that's McDonalds, for chirstsakes, they sell you 2-dollar burgers. Don't you think the airlines would do a bit better? The TSA is the one department we should abolish. They have too broad of a mandate -- they think they are responsible for controlling, er, protecting _all_ transportation, not just airline travel. They have too many powers -- the ability to virtually strip-search passengers, prevent innocent people from traveling, and interfere with international commerce. And, worst of all, they've combined the military-industrial complex with a paramilitary quasi-police force. This is like an endless cold war where the people themselves are the enemy. The TSA is a terrible mess. That's the one thing we have to get rid of. The facts are that we went 70 years without the TSA just fine. The threat has not increased so much to warrant this kind of intervention. So we have tens of thousands of "officers" harassing normal business travelers daily as part of this ongoing shoddy security theater. It's a witch hunt without any witches, but with lots of government dollars, security contractors, and union jobs. They'll just keep tightening the screws until they do find something alarming. Then they'll congratulate themselves and ask for more money (and authority.) You don't need to be a genius to see where all of this is heading. The TSA is a monster and a menace to freedom. I doubt we'll ever get rid of it, but that's no reason to give up. Speaking out against it at every opportunity, to me, is a civic duty. I freely admit to being over-the-top in my language here, but you have to remember that the entire idea of the type of security state we now live in was the wildest fantasy just thirty years ago. I'm just trying to write something that will still be relevant in another 20 years or so. Using that standard, I'm not sure I've been over the top enough.
- wisty 15y ago
  I don't think a free market solution would work - airports will cut costs until there's a disaster. But airports could do it the way they handle general aviation safety. You don't have a TSA minder next to the pilot, giving instructions on how to lower the landing gear - there's a system in place which seems to work pretty well. You could argue that no solution (an honor system?) is better than the TSA. Or that it would be better putting the police in charge (and giving them the funds to put a couple of officers in each airport gate). If that's a waste of valuable police time, they could reduce their presence.
shingen 15y ago
I'm always fascinated when writers use the phrase "defeat terrorism." It would be equally stupid to say: defeat murder. It's the kind of jingoistic bull that led to the Patriot Act and Homeland Security. If someone told you the price for living in the most free society possible, is that 5,000 of your fellow citizens would die annually by terrorism, would that not be worth it? I would willingly risk my life, given the threat ratio, for that exchange. Particularly given the counter-terrorism efforts are already killing that many now. If someone wants to blow their self up, or randomly stab you in the throat with a knife, the odds favor they're going to do it. You can try to prevent it, you can deal with the outcome, sometimes you'll succeed, sometimes you'll fail - what ultimately matters is that you don't fail big (nukes). That's it. You battle and deal with terrorism, you don't defeat it. You can't argue with irrationality or insanity, and someone somewhere is always going to be willing to commit terrorism.
- meric 15y ago
  >> If someone told you the price for living in the most free society possible, is that 5,000 of your fellow citizens would die annually by terrorism, would that not be worth it? It depends how many people are in that society. If everyone else is too scared to join you, you might just be the only one and be 1 of the 5000 next year, if you're lucky this year.
- grannyg00se 15y ago
  I sometimes wonder how many violent crazies are out randomly walking the streets. I'm impressed (and glad) that there isn't more random violence as you described. It would be very easy to stab someone, run off, and never be caught. But it just doesn't happen (well....extremely rarely anyway).
sehugg 15y ago
DHS is the poster child for mission creep. The White House suggested last year that they could help track down "circumvention devices" such as game console mod chips. From the Office of White House's "Copyright Czar": “[It] is illegal to import or traffic in devices that can be used to circumvent technological measures that control access to copyrighted works,” they wrote. “When DHS discovers the importation of a potential circumvention device, current law does not authorize DHS to share a sample with a rightholder to aid CBP in determining whether it is, in fact, a circumvention device. Allowing DHS to provide a sample would aid enforcement efforts.”
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swiecki 15y ago
Guidelines ask why is this posted. :( http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

332 points by nextparadigms 15y ago

click170 15y ago

Link seems down, anyone have a mirror?

deleted 15y ago
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deleted 15y ago
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andrew_k 15y ago

Google Cache http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:pxxPIla6u9sJ:www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/01/abolish_the_dep.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:pxxPIla...

carbocation 15y ago

DHS is too inconsistent to be credible. The only flight I've ever missed (I was running late to a wedding), I missed because I had a tube of toothpaste in my carry-on. It was found to be small enough to be acceptable, but not until it had gone through a second round of X-ray. On another occasion, I was equally late to a connection flight (this time, not my fault), and I got through security despite having a bottle of water, a toiletry kit (including 5" blades), etc. Why? Well, I don't know and I don't really care. The fact of the matter is that they will give me an aluminum can on the flight anyway, so who cares how long of a blade I bring onboard in the first place? It's security theater no matter how you slice it.

dguaraglia 15y ago
Look up the term "security theater". That's exactly what they are doing. Well, that and buying extremely expensive machinery from a company partially owned by the very man, Michael Chertoff, who co-wrote the PATRIOT act and jump-started this whole stupid thing. Talk about revolving-door politics and corruption. That bothers me more than any pat-downs.
- waffle_ss 15y ago
  Is there a list somewhere of all of these corrupt politicians / traitors? If not, I'm going to start a wiki. Who knows, maybe it will be useful if the winds of change ever blow through this country.
  - Peaker 15y ago
    That would be a great website -- though perhaps somewhat dangerous to run.
    - slowpoke 15y ago
      You could ask the Wikileaks folks and community around them for help. I'm sure they wouldn't be adverse to such a project.
  - SoftwareMaven 15y ago
    Is it too cynical to say "look at the congessional roster"? I think it would be hard to identify who are truly corrupt and who are doing what they think is right but get caught up in the machine. I would love an objective way of identifying that. What we really need is real campaign finance reform. Politicians need to get money for office from real, individual people, not lobbyists and corporations. Want different outcomes? Change the incentives.
  - rnemo 15y ago
    Wikileaks appears to be the best option out there at the moment. But while it's a good resource to mine for data, it is pretty useless to the average person who may want some easily discovered facts. If you're really serious about that wiki though, and would like some help, shoot me an email, you can find it in my profile.
  - dguaraglia 15y ago
    You know? This is not a bad idea. I've been wondering for months what kind of thing one could do to 'awaken' people about all these corrupts running stuff. It's not that they hide what they do. Oh, no! In general they are quite blatant about it. The problem is that most journalists (with the exceptions of people like Matt Taibbi and Greg Palast) can't be bothered to do their job and actually do some... well, journalism. So, I wonder if creating a compendium of these facts won't make it an easier job for the journalists in the mainstream media to pick them up and maybe expose them to the public a bit more. I'm making a big, big, assumption here that mainstream media actually gives a crap about this at all.
smokeyj 15y ago
Policing is Too Important to be Left to the Government: Economist Ed Stringham http://reason.com/blog/2011/10/26/policing-is-too-important-to-b http://reason.com/blog/2011/10/26/policing-is-too-important-...
bdunbar 15y ago
It was inconsistent before, too. Anecdote. In 1998 I went through Gate 1 to catch a flight. Realized I left something in my car. Out to get the thing, back through Gate 2, which was closer to my gate. Where an alert-looking agent pulled me aside, took out a candle I'd had in my bag [1] and wiped it down with what I assumed was a sniffer for explosives. This amused me because his sleepy-looking peer at Gate 1 had waved me through with no problems twenty minutes earlier. I don't think you can get consistency of effort/organization/process across a large organization of civilians. The only group I've been a part of that managed to come close is the US Marines. And most people will not be willing to subject themselves to 9 weeks of brainwashing in basic training, then the rigid hierarchy of command, for the sake of a job screening passengers. [1] Gift for sister-in-law

deleted 15y ago

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littleidea 15y ago

the link isn't just down, the domain is not resolving for me now

intour779 15y ago
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adamrights 15y ago

Have you seen this: NY Times has an article. Good friend did the research and filed the FOIA: http://epic.org/2012/01/epic---foia-documents-reveal-h.html http://epic.org/2012/01/epic---foia-documents-reveal-h.html <---EPIC - FOIA Documents Reveal Homeland Security is Monitoring Political Dissent

adamrights 15y ago

They also hired contractors to monitor social networks: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3463850 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3463850

Flow 15y ago

I'm not a native english speaker, the word "homeland" just seems like a weird choice to me. It feels too patriotic and even a bit fascistic. I can't recall any public discussion about the name when they were created, but then I'm not from the US so I might have missed those. Also, I'm associating the word with "fatherland", from the post-WW2-nazis-won-movie with Rutger Hauer :-/

brc 15y ago
When it was coined, patriotism was all the rage. Yes, it is a weird name when looking externally. But it (like the PATRIOT act) is a product of the fear at the time. And it's time to dump both of those creations.
gojomo 15y ago
You intuition is right, it's kinda creepy to native speakers of American english, too. There was some discussion at the time, but not enough to modify the course of the barreling train in Washington DC that created the DHS. Here's one example from 2002: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/kausfiles_special/2002/06/the_trouble_with_homeland.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/kausfiles_sp...
code_duck 15y ago
Absolutely. I always referred to it as 'Homeland Security, Comrade'. But that's pretty much what they were after, a totalitarian fascist government with 'total information awareness', so it makes perfect sense.
vacri 15y ago
There are a great many native English speakers who make exactly the same association.
wavephorm 15y ago
It's a euphemism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemism The US government uses typical propaganda tactics like this, grease up the names of their authoritarian bills to make them sound nice, when in fact they are usually quite sinister. For example, the Patriot Act includes provisions for torturing and spying on Americans.

ck2 15y ago

Before the decade is out they will just rename it to do an end-run around public relations. Nothing will change and it's never going away because there's major money being made from it's fake foolishness already. You really think they are going to give up the "visual response teams" for searching people at bus and train stations (and even in traffic)? That's the gold topping of security theater. ZERO terrorists caught for all that money and other than the box cutters the original 9/11 would have still made it on the planes for all the rights violated and money spent. The should have just secured all airplane cockpit doors and called it a day but first rule of government, why spend just a million when you can potentially spend a billion and get lots of wartime powers.

Revisor 15y ago

So the argument is that DHS is ineffective and wasteful? I thought the article would talk about how DHS is dangerous because it systematically dismantles your freedom in exchange for omnipresent surveillance and faux security. Then again, I'm only watching it from the outside.

chc 15y ago
The security wouldn't be "faux" if the department were efficient and effective.

DanBC 15y ago

> TSA was created two months after the September 11 terrorist attacks, when Congress passed the Aviation and Transportation Security Act (ATSA) [.pdf] to keep the millions of Americans who travel each day safe and secure across numerous modes of transportation. The rise in death rates after 9/11 from people switching from safe air transport to dangerous road transport is well known by now. So it's surprising to see TSA still saying they're spending money to keep transport safe. That is blatantly not true. One man tries to set fire to plastic explosive stored in his shoe - now everyone has to take off their shoes. Meanwhile, thousands die in road traffic every year. I've travelled on California[1] roads. God almighty; for a nation obsessed with doing everything by car some parts of the US have an appalling road system. (I never knew why Americans were happy to drive cars with awful gas milage. Cheap gas doesn't quite answer that question. Cheap gas and bloody terrible road surfaces which need a big comfy car does.) You can kind of forgive Joe Sixpack for being bad at risk assessment and management. But a government department, spending millions and billions of public money? It's a disgusting waste.

DanielBMarkham 15y ago

I was reading along, nodding my head, then I got to this: Hard to argue with most of that, although abolishing the TSA isn't a good idea. Airport security should be rolled back to pre-9/11 levels, but someone is going to have to be in charge of it. Putting the airlines in charge of it doesn't make sense; their incentives are going to be passenger service rather than security. What? How many passengers can you service if the airport is unsafe? Is the author unaware of the hundreds of different types of businesses that operate in hostile environments yet manage to keep their customers safe as part of their service? Has he never walked into a fast-food restaurant on a weekend night and seen the security guards? Hell, that's McDonalds, for chirstsakes, they sell you 2-dollar burgers. Don't you think the airlines would do a bit better? The TSA is the one department we should abolish. They have too broad of a mandate -- they think they are responsible for controlling, er, protecting _all_ transportation, not just airline travel. They have too many powers -- the ability to virtually strip-search passengers, prevent innocent people from traveling, and interfere with international commerce. And, worst of all, they've combined the military-industrial complex with a paramilitary quasi-police force. This is like an endless cold war where the people themselves are the enemy. The TSA is a terrible mess. That's the one thing we have to get rid of. The facts are that we went 70 years without the TSA just fine. The threat has not increased so much to warrant this kind of intervention. So we have tens of thousands of "officers" harassing normal business travelers daily as part of this ongoing shoddy security theater. It's a witch hunt without any witches, but with lots of government dollars, security contractors, and union jobs. They'll just keep tightening the screws until they do find something alarming. Then they'll congratulate themselves and ask for more money (and authority.) You don't need to be a genius to see where all of this is heading. The TSA is a monster and a menace to freedom. I doubt we'll ever get rid of it, but that's no reason to give up. Speaking out against it at every opportunity, to me, is a civic duty. I freely admit to being over-the-top in my language here, but you have to remember that the entire idea of the type of security state we now live in was the wildest fantasy just thirty years ago. I'm just trying to write something that will still be relevant in another 20 years or so. Using that standard, I'm not sure I've been over the top enough.

wisty 15y ago
I don't think a free market solution would work - airports will cut costs until there's a disaster. But airports could do it the way they handle general aviation safety. You don't have a TSA minder next to the pilot, giving instructions on how to lower the landing gear - there's a system in place which seems to work pretty well. You could argue that no solution (an honor system?) is better than the TSA. Or that it would be better putting the police in charge (and giving them the funds to put a couple of officers in each airport gate). If that's a waste of valuable police time, they could reduce their presence.

shingen 15y ago

I'm always fascinated when writers use the phrase "defeat terrorism." It would be equally stupid to say: defeat murder. It's the kind of jingoistic bull that led to the Patriot Act and Homeland Security. If someone told you the price for living in the most free society possible, is that 5,000 of your fellow citizens would die annually by terrorism, would that not be worth it? I would willingly risk my life, given the threat ratio, for that exchange. Particularly given the counter-terrorism efforts are already killing that many now. If someone wants to blow their self up, or randomly stab you in the throat with a knife, the odds favor they're going to do it. You can try to prevent it, you can deal with the outcome, sometimes you'll succeed, sometimes you'll fail - what ultimately matters is that you don't fail big (nukes). That's it. You battle and deal with terrorism, you don't defeat it. You can't argue with irrationality or insanity, and someone somewhere is always going to be willing to commit terrorism.

meric 15y ago
>> If someone told you the price for living in the most free society possible, is that 5,000 of your fellow citizens would die annually by terrorism, would that not be worth it? It depends how many people are in that society. If everyone else is too scared to join you, you might just be the only one and be 1 of the 5000 next year, if you're lucky this year.
grannyg00se 15y ago
I sometimes wonder how many violent crazies are out randomly walking the streets. I'm impressed (and glad) that there isn't more random violence as you described. It would be very easy to stab someone, run off, and never be caught. But it just doesn't happen (well....extremely rarely anyway).

sehugg 15y ago

DHS is the poster child for mission creep. The White House suggested last year that they could help track down "circumvention devices" such as game console mod chips. From the Office of White House's "Copyright Czar": “[It] is illegal to import or traffic in devices that can be used to circumvent technological measures that control access to copyrighted works,” they wrote. “When DHS discovers the importation of a potential circumvention device, current law does not authorize DHS to share a sample with a rightholder to aid CBP in determining whether it is, in fact, a circumvention device. Allowing DHS to provide a sample would aid enforcement efforts.”

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

swiecki 15y ago

Guidelines ask why is this posted. :( http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html