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I’m going to get flamed for this but at this point the closest we’re getting to counter culture is the exact opposite… “Trads”. Young people with super traditi

I’m going to get flamed for this but at this point the closest we’re getting to counter culture is the exact opposite… “Trads”. Young people with super traditional values doing exactly the opposite of most of what you just listed. No one would seriously suggest the trendiest most mainstream supported or glorified lifestyles (van life, queerness, gig work) are counter culture…that IS the culture; there’s very little cultural risk in living those glorified identities. But say you’re an 18 year old with radically traditional values…that’s counter cultural now. Not supporting either direction. Just observing.

Pigalowda 4y ago
I think you are right. The US kinda feels like Asimov’s foundation, especially in the west coast. Fewer people acting like adults and more people chasing dopamine and letting entropy do its damage. Maybe I just need to stop taking public transportation and walking the city. Perhaps suburbs feel further from the precipice.
- Mezzie 4y ago
  I've been wondering lately if it's down to the lack of agency on the part of average people. Like I see that America is in decline and has a decent chance of falling apart in my lifetime (I'm 34), but what exactly am I going to do about it? Nobody in charge cares, they're too busy fiddling. If you can't stop the decline and have to live it, why not try to enjoy what you have while you have it?
  - Pigalowda 4y ago
    I’m 37 so we’re pretty much the same cohort. And I’ve also reached that conclusion - I get out of the city and ski and hike, spend time with SO, etc. I won’t be dragged into the bullshit doomerism and constant shifting existential crises that online and west coasters seem to be addicted to. However, my daily commutes through seattle runs me right into the Pioneer square station and I swear it’s like something from “the Wire”. It feels like hamsterdam, a hell on earth. So while I generally resolve to do whats best for myself I still run into the effects of the society I live in everyday and it’s depressing/demoralizing. This city is diseased with an aggressive malignancy.
    - Mezzie 4y ago
      > I won’t be dragged into the bullshit doomerism and constant shifting existential crises that online and west coasters seem to be addicted to. The thing that's interesting about this is that human beings in acute distress are less adept at planning ahead and being creative. Which means that people in the doom cycle can't start building new institutions to challenge the old ones that are decaying and pillaging. The perverse incentives that got us to this point are also disincentivizing fixing the problems. I don't even want to think about what Pioneer Square is like now. It was sketchy when I lived in Seattle and that was 10 years ago. I agree that even with some healthy distance/putting on your own oxygen mask first, it's very demoralizing. My trust in people is much lower than it used to be. I'm not sure rural or suburban areas are much better. Most of the malignancy just happens in private.
      - Pigalowda 4y ago
        You may be right about the suburban areas, I just don't know. I haven't lived there since I was a kid. The area around Pioneer square is all boarded up now, even the court house! During the summer/fall it was much worse with indigent drug use and florid psychotics but now that it's cold and wet there's less. The station is still used as a toilet though. Funny enough the stairs at exit A in Pioneer Square have inscribed on them as you walk up "Why are you not afraid?". And I always say to myself, "I fuckin am!" Seattle needs some chemotherapy but that would require its citizens to recognize they have a disease and actually seek treatment. Instead they put on their airpods and stare at their phones and completely live in a parallel reality.
        noobermin 4y ago
        What is chemotherapy in this case?
        mulmen 4y ago
        The most recent elections clearly demonstrate that Seattle voters are fed up and are ready to try something else. Of the seven city council members whose terms are up in 2023 only one has announced a re-election campaign and four of them have said they won't be running. It's a mess right now but I don't think it's fair to accuse the electorate of living in a parallel reality.
  - xwolfi 4y ago
    These decline stories are universal, and probably no more true than 400 years ago: I am French and live in Hong Kong, do you think decline is not what everyone is talking about in BOTH places ? What is a place not in decline in the eyes of its inhabitants ? It says more about how we view the past than how the present is: we remember only the glorious good times, and forget nobody could read 200 years ago, or nobody could eat 400 years ago. They all said they were in decline, the values of their grandfathers diluted by a constant change. But while I sit on my toilets, on the 44th floor of my hyper tower, writing to americans in a language nobody in my ascending family can speak, before tucking my trilingual kid to bed, well, I think the decline isn't so bad, if you zoom out a few decades.
    - api 4y ago
      I have felt like a contrarian for a while for not thinking the US (or the West generally) is in decline. Here’s a random example: https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/nj3z7ieVrCcgyQkq6myNZ.jpg https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/nj3z7ieVrCcgyQkq6myNZ.jpg Doesn’t look like decline to me. I could cite dozens more examples and not just around technology. Russia is a good example of a nation in decline: hemorrhaging young people, horrible corruption, cynicism, delusional leaders, and the use of imperial war and dramatic ideology to try to paper over it all. We do have a lot of dumb problems like a homelessness epidemic that are due more to lack of political will than inability to fix them. Some are also due to the high priority we place on individual freedom. We’d rather have freedom from detention and to move about than round up the homeless and force them into institutions. We’d rather have shootings than remove the individual right to bear arms. We’d rather have strong property rights than eminent domain people to build infrastructure. Etc.
      - lmm 4y ago
        > Here’s a random example: Hardly "random". > hemorrhaging young people, horrible corruption, cynicism, delusional leaders, and the use of imperial war and dramatic ideology to try to paper over it all. So which of those is missing from the US? I see fewer and fewer young people, the corruption may not be at the level of handing over banknotes but the distrust is just as real, and everything else on your list is much th esame.
  - mulmen 4y ago
    Worry less about America and more about your city, especially your neighborhood. Democracy does work. People do make a difference every day. Don’t let the internet get you down.
    - Mezzie 4y ago
      I'm actually very locally active and came to the same conclusion in that I think building local institutions is the best thing that I can do right now.
    - gwright 4y ago
      This observation, for me is a rationale for supporting efforts that shift power down. From federal to state, from state to county, from county to local gov, from local gov to individuals. Public policy discussions that start with the assumption that the only possible solution is for the federal/state/county/local government to dictate policies from above are almost always non-starters for me. The higher up in the hierarchy the more evidence I need to support a solution at that level. I'm not absolutist on this matter, there are concerns that are best addressed at all those various levels but I prefer to get there through bottom-up policy experimentation and iteration rather than top-down diktats. There are also ample lessons from history about the dangers of expansive government powers.
      - mulmen 4y ago
        That debate has been ongoing since before the founding of the country. You are in good company and our system is designed with the idea of distributing power. The key is for people to recognize and exercise their power.
  - boringg 4y ago
    You realize that "America is in decline" has been alive and well since the 60s. Not sure anything right now points to it being any different back then. If anything militarily and intelligence wise the US proved the dominance globally by tipping off Ukraine and stopping a full Russian incursion.
    - Mezzie 4y ago
      The main problems America has are internal. I agree that nobody could realistically invade us or wage war against us, but that doesn't mean we can't have civil conflicts or a period like the Troubles. In those cases, our overwhelming military superiority might be a drawback since everybody and their cousin is armed.
no-dr-onboard 4y ago
Hard agree. It’s ironic how tone deaf the article comes off, but I suppose that’s another observation for another time. Another point on trads being a counter culture: You can tell a counterculture is real by the presence of posers and wannabes. Trad culture has this too. Ex: men who hide behind marble statue pfps and are actually single dudes living in a big city.
- jrochkind1 4y ago
  I'm not familiar with this, but your last point was curious to me. Can you not have "radically traditional values" and be a single man living in a big city? Or at any rate, it's not respected, so these people you are talking about are pretending to not be single and not live in a big city?
  - no-dr-onboard 4y ago
    Yeah that was probably confusing because I had a specific part of this culture in mind (trad homesteader). My point was that countercultures are often marked by the presence of posers, tagalongs, and idealists who don’t practice.
- no-dr-onboard 4y ago
  I think also that “trad” is an umbrella to which many hands hold. Tradcath: traditional lifestyle Catholics Trad homeschoolers: arguably some of the most steadfast and longest holding countercultures. They literally have children and raise them opposite or tangential to the current culture norms. Trad Christian theonomist: complimentarian views on marriage, anti secular government, often homesteaders. Trad chads: men pursuing lives of purity at any social cost. Staunchly opposed to todays hookup culture and LGBT influences.
  - ramesh31 4y ago
    >Trad chads: men pursuing lives of purity at any social cost. Staunchly opposed to todays hookup culture and LGBT influences. I see this becoming the norm in the future. Hook up culture is simply too dangerous (for both men and women) to be sustainable long term. It's a cultural hangover from the days of "free love" that simply does not map to the modern world anymore.
goodpoint 4y ago
If that's what you think you really live in a bubble.
ploppyploppy 4y ago
[flagged]
- tpush 4y ago
  > [...] LGBTQIA+#[}! nonsense [...] Come on, do we need this here?
  - undersuit 4y ago
    It's just Trad Counter Culture! /s There's an even worse comment, IMO, in this thread that's near the top voted response to the Trad Counter Culture nonsense.
Mezzie 4y ago
I agree with you and I'm definitely not a trad person. Specifically I think the counter-cultural part in terms of the rise of like...young trad Catholics/religious people is the idea of not partaking in the world. Our current attention economy spends a lot of time trying to get people (including adolescents) to spend their time watching/consuming/interacting, be constantly available, etc. The idea that you don't have to participate is the counter-cultural part.
gfaregan 4y ago
I think your social standing has a lot more to do with money than behavior. If you're rich and live in a van you're interesting, otherwise you're just homeless. If your gig is a successful business you're independent, if it's Uber you're barely surviving.
- alldayeveryday 4y ago
  Disagree. I think your social status has more to do with your conformity to neoliberal values than it does money. Sure, money can buy nice things and attract friends. Just look at Kanye.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  The richer you are the broader the range of behavior you can get away with. But the spectrum of all behavior in which this acceptable range lives moves. Warren Buffet can't have a side gig running scrap in an unregistered truck with a Newport hanging out of his mouth.
pjc50 4y ago
> queerness ... there’s very little cultural risk in living those glorified identities Several US states are trying to make it illegal to be trans or even dress in a gender nonconfirming way. Queerness still carries a certain amount of real, physical risk; Norway Pride 2022 was cancelled because somebody shot up a gay bar and murdered two people.
- leshow 4y ago
  Don't forget the bomb threats at hospitals providing trans care, or the actual shootings that took place at drag & gay clubs, Florida's "dont say gay" bill, you could go on and on.
harimau777 4y ago
I think it is at least somewhat contextual. Being LGBTQ in the Deep South is different than in a major coastal city.
- selimthegrim 4y ago
  New Orleans being an exception.
Jeema101 4y ago
This comment is totally off topic. The theme of the article is pop culture and whether it's possible for alternative types of pop culture to gain traction anymore given the fact that most of the outlets are governed by algorithms that prioritize engagement - you're referring to toxic culture war politics. Did you even read the article?
- noobermin 4y ago
  The truth is that countercultures often had political bents to them. Recuperation as defined literally included denaturing the political content of something, preserving the artistic or aesthetic quality only.
alldayeveryday 4y ago
Another hard agree. I always get a good laugh when people in queer culture claim to be living a counter culture lifestyle. Meanwhile the US state department is flying the queer flag at its embassies around the world and using it to agitate foreign conservative cultures. I nominate being an unapologetic white male as the counter culture of our current time. Just watch how many downvotes you'll get on any social media platform for having this position.
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  Really confused by this statement. I think queer culture can be countercultural depending. For example legislation is currently up in some states to ban dressing in a way outside your sex because drag queens exist, but even though drag queens have a tv show and a movie and stuff I'm sure it'll also probably scoop a butch lesbian or two or just a regular tomboy woman.
  - zmgsabst 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - dashundchen 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - lezojeda 4y ago
        [flagged]
        clericbob 4y ago
        Yeah, those people are parents that send their kids to catholic school.
        dang 4y ago
xwolfi 4y ago
But it's not more a problem than the LSD-heavy semi hoboes partying in woodstock in the 70s: both interrogate us on how far we should go in our ways, propose ridiculously extreme alternatives we have to compromise with. Letting the trads speak a bit more might shock us just as much as the past minorities shocked our forefathers, but look where are: we evolved have't we ? Maybe we can ditch some dictat we imposed on ourselves in our chase for ever deeper reactionary counter-traditionalism.
undersuit 4y ago
I think this is ridiculous, LGBTQ is a minority. Trads are part of a waning majority. All evidence points towards LGBTQ always existing but just becoming more open. Trads being Counter Culture? That's the same double speak that gets us Citizens United and Right to Work. Where did these trads get their radically traditional values? From the majority.
- irrational 4y ago
  It is a minority, but if I go into work and announce that I am trans and will now be transitioning and my name is now X, people will fall all over themselves be supportive and congratulating me. It literally happened recently when Chris became Christina at my work. But, if I come in and announce that I have decided to become Catholic or Evangelical or Mormon there will be a lot of awkward silence with maybe some "okaaaaayyy, anyway, let's continue with the planning for the next project..."
  - undersuit 4y ago
    Because no one needs to change the way they act around you. Christianity and Catholicism are strongly majority groups in the US. You were already treated as a Christian because that's what the majority of our society is based on.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - irrational 4y ago
      No, where I live you are considered to be a freak if you are religious. Announcing that you have joined a religion is like announcing you are trans in Alabama 50 years ago.
      - undersuit 4y ago
        OK, well I live in Montana and I still have arguments with people with Confederate state tattoos on their arms. Where do you live?
clericbob 4y ago
I think you're onto something, but you're missing a really key point of what makes a counterculture. Consider the 'culture'. Whose side is the balance of power really behind? There are massive influences and money behind traditional christian and conservative values - they have a practical stranglehold on the politics of roughly half of America (by landmass). Is it really 'counter' the culture to embody those values in areas where they are the norm? I think we don't have 'a' counterculture because we don't have 'a' culture, a unified one, in this country. Trad is as counterculture in California as radical queer/left ideology is in Alabama, and it gets muddier when you look at individual pockets of the opposite in rural areas or cities respectively. If anything, this cultural split over core values would make anything else - 'radical centrism' for instance - a counterculture in and of itself; except, that tends to be the tack taken by a lot of media (NPR, Meet the Press, etc.). Can that be counterculture? Alternatively, consider outside of mainstream politics. Co-op organizations, hacker/DIY circles, and protest movements are all certainly 'counter' the norm, but do they all have their own 'culture?' At best they have shared memes, no real ideological unity or even goddang clothing preferences.
standardUser 4y ago
It's always been "radical" to have "radically traditional values". Just look at the Amish or Orthodox Jews. It's just that the definition of "radically traditional" shifts in our own lifetimes, making cultural ideas that were normal when we were teenagers seem appalling 30 years later, and continued adherence to those views becomes radical.
ROTMetro 4y ago
Do these Trads have long standing institutions in their local communities for support of their culture? Why yes, they are called Churches, which don't have to operate underground in the USA like they do in China (expect when they are strange polygamy cults that often skew towards multiple underage wives), and they receive special state recognized privilege such as tax exemptions, within a society and government unabashedly based on 'judeo-christian' values. So, in line with the government under which they live, supported by longstanding cultural institutions well established in the community. Super counter culture.
ss108 4y ago
As someone who has grown more traditional and religious over the years (I'm 32), I agree.
noobermin 4y ago
I guess the question here is what does the words, "mainstream supported" mean? Most corporate brands and media try to appeal to certain minorities. Is this what you mean? The thing is despite the media focus, it still is the actual case that such minorities do not have actual power in society in terms of actual statistics, but the media is just a mirage, the reality is that certain disparities still exist, despite media representation. This might be the slightly different aspect of modern culture, that it does not amplify the already existing power group explicitly.
- erybodyknows 4y ago
  Interesting point. I guess the question is: is power inherently related to culture? And if so, to what degree? If culture is the outline of the dominant group in a society, perhaps the counterculture are those who occupy and inhabit its shadow.
  - noobermin 4y ago
    So, I'm not sure this is obvious, but the current "progressive[0]" culture is pushed by the dominant group that does have power. By raw statistics, white men still wield most power in American society (and thus the world), and so the progressive culture that is dominant in media is the culture being written and put into vogue by people who are white men if you merely draw on the statistics. If you've ever observed twitter, a good chance is someone bleeting about "white people be like X" it is a white person doing it. A good meme on housing twitter is nimbys doing land acknowledgements while no Native Americans (or POC really) are actually present since they are economically excluded from said community. The thing is the statistics still speak for themselves. Despite the media, the PR campaigns, for example, software development still skews largely male. The spoken culture extols DEI, but the actual reality is still what is it by statistics. On some level, this might just be recuperation in action, but the point is that it still is ironically the culture of the majority. It isn't being "pushed" by the minority because the minority is by definition, the minority. It is being adopted (even recuperated) by the majority, often into a form that is acceptable for it. The difference is that the majority isn't really centering itself in that media. Except that on some level, if you listen to Slavoj Zizek, it actually is. Anyway, whether media or external culture really makes a difference materially (like minority representation in workplaces of high paying careers matching that of the population) it at least clear at this point that it either would take a lot of time to take effect, or possibly (probably even likely at this point) it has no real effect on actual power relations in society. [0] putting this in quotes because progressive encompasses more than what is accepted by the mainstream culture.
Dig1t 4y ago
People are scared to say this, because they quickly get labeled a Christofascist or alt-right something or other, but it's true. Trads are definitely the counter culture now. Tim Dillon made a joke recently, something along the lines of "The most radical non-conformist thing you can do now is wear rosary beads". I thought it was kind of funny, but also because it's true.
- undersuit 4y ago
  I grew up with a number of rosaries. I would have to bring them into my Catholic grade school and then we'd walk to the church on campus and spend the next hour reciting rote verses and trying to keep track of where I was on the rosary. Wearing rosary beads sounds like a counter culture move against the church if you ask me. Rosaries are almost sacred.
  - mattpallissard 4y ago
    Not sure why you're getting the down votes. I attended a Catholic school and wearing a rosary was certainly frowned upon for the exact reason you state.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > Wearing rosary beads sounds like a counter culture move against the church if you ask me. Wearing a rosary around the neck is common and accepted in some Catholic cultures and frowned upon in others. There is no general Catholic religious objection to it, it is just a matter of local cultural practice. (Publicly flaunting it while engaging in scandalous behavior is more generally frowned upon, of course, as heaping hypocrisy on top of the already-bad behavior.) Wearing a 15-decade rosary on the hip, in the same place a soldier would wear a sword, is traditional for the Dominican order.
    - undersuit 4y ago
      I'm not objecting to wearing them, my old biases object to them being worn as a fashion element. They are a tool, not a sign of your personal faith. The only people I ever saw with Rosaries every day were the Nuns who used them every day, even the priests would dress down on occasion.
flangola7 4y ago
There are literal state laws being passed increasingly criminalizing the existence of being trans, right now especially any kind of trans healthcare for kids (some legislatures are looking to extend it to adults). There have been mass killings specifically targeting LGBT+ individuals. Even merely informing someone of the pronouns you go by is almost guaranteed to bring flaming and harassment on most online platforms, often including right here on HN. I want to be charitable but it's hard to interpret this attitude as anything other than willful ignorance of very obvious facts.
kerpotgh 4y ago
I don’t think trads are counter culture because they are the vast, vast majority outside of major cities anyways. It’s about as normative as you can get.
- MockObject 4y ago
  How often do they see themselves represented positively in TV and movies?
  - kerpotgh 4y ago
    [dead]
vlunkr 4y ago
I disagree that "trads" are counter-culture, just looking at the numbers that is pretty ridiculous. But you could consider the more extreme groups counter culture, like alt-right, q-anon, incels, 8-chan or wherever they are now. They are the worst of course, but I think they fit the description.
dnissley 4y ago
Here's one small "trad" expression I've seen that got some people riled up in the kind of way I would expect a counterculture to: the sqlite code of ethics https://sqlite.org/codeofethics.html https://sqlite.org/codeofethics.html Long hn thread about it from some months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31886687 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31886687
- undersuit 4y ago
  Two things can be true. Trads can be counter-cultural in the small tech society, and be the dominant culture in the majority of society.
  - dnissley 4y ago
    Most people in the US at least do not slot into any particular subculture. They are "normies" for lack of a better term: they don't intentionally curate their cultural selves -- they may have picked up some "trad" trappings (wearing a cross necklace, possessing handwavy religious beliefs like "believing in God"), and they may have "woke/queer" trappings (flying a rainbow flag on their house, possessing handwavy political beliefs like "supporting trans rights").
zamfi 4y ago
What you’re observing isn’t a lack of counter-culture, it’s a lack of monolithic culture, though. In different parts of the country, or even different parts of the same city, the dominant culture is different. Living a “glorified lifestyle,” as you put it, in NY of SF? Sure, no one bats an eye. In the rural south? Different story. On the other hand — white man with “radically traditional values“, whatever that means, in suburban SLC? You’ll fit right in. In the Castro? Sure, you might feel out of place. Unlike the US of the 1950s, there is no apparent single pervasive monolithic culture — and thus there is no real “counterculture” that can exist in universal opposition to that dominant culture across the US. But rest assured that to the people living lives incongruent with their communities — including perhaps any “trads” in SF, NYC, etc. — their lives will feel pretty countercultural.
- _gabe_ 4y ago
  I live in the rural south and went to a private Christian university. They painted the statue of the school mascot a rainbow on pride month. My biblical ethics classes taught the opposite of what the Bible teaches. The students couldn't care less about the traditional aspects of Christianity. My friends at other Christian private universities had similar experiences. You don't have to be in NY, SF, or wherever to experience the trendy culture. It is pervasive everywhere.
  - zamfi 4y ago
    > You don't have to be in NY, SF, or wherever to experience the trendy culture. It is pervasive everywhere. You don’t, which is why I said: > or even different parts of the same city But while it is present almost everywhere, it is not pervasive everywhere. Surely at your private Christian university there are many who hold traditional views — just as there are some at Berkeley, near me — and I’d be pretty surprised to learn that the kids painting your school’s mascot represent a majority perspective there.
    - eastof 4y ago
      Not sure why that would be surprising. Most get all their info from the internet where reactions to speech about traditional values ranges from mass disapproval to outright censorship. In our culture, almost any values from prior generations are treated as suspect. We live in an extremely progressive time when compared against historical periods. My particular gripe with this is how religion is viewed in popular culture. Despite our supposed multicultural values, much of the discussion on religion remains focused on Western/Abrahamic religions. Psychology/psychiatry is the new religion which is supposed to be able to guide our mental/spiritual health journey, but I'm of the opinion that it is failing miserably in this area, and we should be doing more to integrate ideas that have survived for thousands of years for a reason.
golemiprague 4y ago
[dead]
germinalphrase 4y ago
IDK. Maybe “radically” is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence, but I live in the upper Midwest and what you’re describing is the dominant culture.

Pigalowda 4y ago

I think you are right. The US kinda feels like Asimov’s foundation, especially in the west coast. Fewer people acting like adults and more people chasing dopamine and letting entropy do its damage. Maybe I just need to stop taking public transportation and walking the city. Perhaps suburbs feel further from the precipice.

Mezzie 4y ago
I've been wondering lately if it's down to the lack of agency on the part of average people. Like I see that America is in decline and has a decent chance of falling apart in my lifetime (I'm 34), but what exactly am I going to do about it? Nobody in charge cares, they're too busy fiddling. If you can't stop the decline and have to live it, why not try to enjoy what you have while you have it?
- Pigalowda 4y ago
  I’m 37 so we’re pretty much the same cohort. And I’ve also reached that conclusion - I get out of the city and ski and hike, spend time with SO, etc. I won’t be dragged into the bullshit doomerism and constant shifting existential crises that online and west coasters seem to be addicted to. However, my daily commutes through seattle runs me right into the Pioneer square station and I swear it’s like something from “the Wire”. It feels like hamsterdam, a hell on earth. So while I generally resolve to do whats best for myself I still run into the effects of the society I live in everyday and it’s depressing/demoralizing. This city is diseased with an aggressive malignancy.
  - Mezzie 4y ago
    > I won’t be dragged into the bullshit doomerism and constant shifting existential crises that online and west coasters seem to be addicted to. The thing that's interesting about this is that human beings in acute distress are less adept at planning ahead and being creative. Which means that people in the doom cycle can't start building new institutions to challenge the old ones that are decaying and pillaging. The perverse incentives that got us to this point are also disincentivizing fixing the problems. I don't even want to think about what Pioneer Square is like now. It was sketchy when I lived in Seattle and that was 10 years ago. I agree that even with some healthy distance/putting on your own oxygen mask first, it's very demoralizing. My trust in people is much lower than it used to be. I'm not sure rural or suburban areas are much better. Most of the malignancy just happens in private.
    - Pigalowda 4y ago
      You may be right about the suburban areas, I just don't know. I haven't lived there since I was a kid. The area around Pioneer square is all boarded up now, even the court house! During the summer/fall it was much worse with indigent drug use and florid psychotics but now that it's cold and wet there's less. The station is still used as a toilet though. Funny enough the stairs at exit A in Pioneer Square have inscribed on them as you walk up "Why are you not afraid?". And I always say to myself, "I fuckin am!" Seattle needs some chemotherapy but that would require its citizens to recognize they have a disease and actually seek treatment. Instead they put on their airpods and stare at their phones and completely live in a parallel reality.
      - noobermin 4y ago
        What is chemotherapy in this case?
      - mulmen 4y ago
        The most recent elections clearly demonstrate that Seattle voters are fed up and are ready to try something else. Of the seven city council members whose terms are up in 2023 only one has announced a re-election campaign and four of them have said they won't be running. It's a mess right now but I don't think it's fair to accuse the electorate of living in a parallel reality.
- xwolfi 4y ago
  These decline stories are universal, and probably no more true than 400 years ago: I am French and live in Hong Kong, do you think decline is not what everyone is talking about in BOTH places ? What is a place not in decline in the eyes of its inhabitants ? It says more about how we view the past than how the present is: we remember only the glorious good times, and forget nobody could read 200 years ago, or nobody could eat 400 years ago. They all said they were in decline, the values of their grandfathers diluted by a constant change. But while I sit on my toilets, on the 44th floor of my hyper tower, writing to americans in a language nobody in my ascending family can speak, before tucking my trilingual kid to bed, well, I think the decline isn't so bad, if you zoom out a few decades.
  - api 4y ago
    I have felt like a contrarian for a while for not thinking the US (or the West generally) is in decline. Here’s a random example: https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/nj3z7ieVrCcgyQkq6myNZ.jpg https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/nj3z7ieVrCcgyQkq6myNZ.jpg Doesn’t look like decline to me. I could cite dozens more examples and not just around technology. Russia is a good example of a nation in decline: hemorrhaging young people, horrible corruption, cynicism, delusional leaders, and the use of imperial war and dramatic ideology to try to paper over it all. We do have a lot of dumb problems like a homelessness epidemic that are due more to lack of political will than inability to fix them. Some are also due to the high priority we place on individual freedom. We’d rather have freedom from detention and to move about than round up the homeless and force them into institutions. We’d rather have shootings than remove the individual right to bear arms. We’d rather have strong property rights than eminent domain people to build infrastructure. Etc.
    - lmm 4y ago
      > Here’s a random example: Hardly "random". > hemorrhaging young people, horrible corruption, cynicism, delusional leaders, and the use of imperial war and dramatic ideology to try to paper over it all. So which of those is missing from the US? I see fewer and fewer young people, the corruption may not be at the level of handing over banknotes but the distrust is just as real, and everything else on your list is much th esame.
- mulmen 4y ago
  Worry less about America and more about your city, especially your neighborhood. Democracy does work. People do make a difference every day. Don’t let the internet get you down.
  - Mezzie 4y ago
    I'm actually very locally active and came to the same conclusion in that I think building local institutions is the best thing that I can do right now.
  - gwright 4y ago
    This observation, for me is a rationale for supporting efforts that shift power down. From federal to state, from state to county, from county to local gov, from local gov to individuals. Public policy discussions that start with the assumption that the only possible solution is for the federal/state/county/local government to dictate policies from above are almost always non-starters for me. The higher up in the hierarchy the more evidence I need to support a solution at that level. I'm not absolutist on this matter, there are concerns that are best addressed at all those various levels but I prefer to get there through bottom-up policy experimentation and iteration rather than top-down diktats. There are also ample lessons from history about the dangers of expansive government powers.
    - mulmen 4y ago
      That debate has been ongoing since before the founding of the country. You are in good company and our system is designed with the idea of distributing power. The key is for people to recognize and exercise their power.
- boringg 4y ago
  You realize that "America is in decline" has been alive and well since the 60s. Not sure anything right now points to it being any different back then. If anything militarily and intelligence wise the US proved the dominance globally by tipping off Ukraine and stopping a full Russian incursion.
  - Mezzie 4y ago
    The main problems America has are internal. I agree that nobody could realistically invade us or wage war against us, but that doesn't mean we can't have civil conflicts or a period like the Troubles. In those cases, our overwhelming military superiority might be a drawback since everybody and their cousin is armed.

no-dr-onboard 4y ago

Hard agree. It’s ironic how tone deaf the article comes off, but I suppose that’s another observation for another time. Another point on trads being a counter culture: You can tell a counterculture is real by the presence of posers and wannabes. Trad culture has this too. Ex: men who hide behind marble statue pfps and are actually single dudes living in a big city.

jrochkind1 4y ago
I'm not familiar with this, but your last point was curious to me. Can you not have "radically traditional values" and be a single man living in a big city? Or at any rate, it's not respected, so these people you are talking about are pretending to not be single and not live in a big city?
- no-dr-onboard 4y ago
  Yeah that was probably confusing because I had a specific part of this culture in mind (trad homesteader). My point was that countercultures are often marked by the presence of posers, tagalongs, and idealists who don’t practice.
no-dr-onboard 4y ago
I think also that “trad” is an umbrella to which many hands hold. Tradcath: traditional lifestyle Catholics Trad homeschoolers: arguably some of the most steadfast and longest holding countercultures. They literally have children and raise them opposite or tangential to the current culture norms. Trad Christian theonomist: complimentarian views on marriage, anti secular government, often homesteaders. Trad chads: men pursuing lives of purity at any social cost. Staunchly opposed to todays hookup culture and LGBT influences.
- ramesh31 4y ago
  >Trad chads: men pursuing lives of purity at any social cost. Staunchly opposed to todays hookup culture and LGBT influences. I see this becoming the norm in the future. Hook up culture is simply too dangerous (for both men and women) to be sustainable long term. It's a cultural hangover from the days of "free love" that simply does not map to the modern world anymore.

goodpoint 4y ago

If that's what you think you really live in a bubble.

ploppyploppy 4y ago

[flagged]

tpush 4y ago
> [...] LGBTQIA+#[}! nonsense [...] Come on, do we need this here?
- undersuit 4y ago
  It's just Trad Counter Culture! /s There's an even worse comment, IMO, in this thread that's near the top voted response to the Trad Counter Culture nonsense.

Mezzie 4y ago

I agree with you and I'm definitely not a trad person. Specifically I think the counter-cultural part in terms of the rise of like...young trad Catholics/religious people is the idea of not partaking in the world. Our current attention economy spends a lot of time trying to get people (including adolescents) to spend their time watching/consuming/interacting, be constantly available, etc. The idea that you don't have to participate is the counter-cultural part.

gfaregan 4y ago

I think your social standing has a lot more to do with money than behavior. If you're rich and live in a van you're interesting, otherwise you're just homeless. If your gig is a successful business you're independent, if it's Uber you're barely surviving.

alldayeveryday 4y ago
Disagree. I think your social status has more to do with your conformity to neoliberal values than it does money. Sure, money can buy nice things and attract friends. Just look at Kanye.
dsfyu404ed 4y ago
The richer you are the broader the range of behavior you can get away with. But the spectrum of all behavior in which this acceptable range lives moves. Warren Buffet can't have a side gig running scrap in an unregistered truck with a Newport hanging out of his mouth.

pjc50 4y ago

> queerness ... there’s very little cultural risk in living those glorified identities Several US states are trying to make it illegal to be trans or even dress in a gender nonconfirming way. Queerness still carries a certain amount of real, physical risk; Norway Pride 2022 was cancelled because somebody shot up a gay bar and murdered two people.

leshow 4y ago
Don't forget the bomb threats at hospitals providing trans care, or the actual shootings that took place at drag & gay clubs, Florida's "dont say gay" bill, you could go on and on.

harimau777 4y ago

I think it is at least somewhat contextual. Being LGBTQ in the Deep South is different than in a major coastal city.

selimthegrim 4y ago
New Orleans being an exception.

Jeema101 4y ago

This comment is totally off topic. The theme of the article is pop culture and whether it's possible for alternative types of pop culture to gain traction anymore given the fact that most of the outlets are governed by algorithms that prioritize engagement - you're referring to toxic culture war politics. Did you even read the article?

noobermin 4y ago
The truth is that countercultures often had political bents to them. Recuperation as defined literally included denaturing the political content of something, preserving the artistic or aesthetic quality only.

alldayeveryday 4y ago

Another hard agree. I always get a good laugh when people in queer culture claim to be living a counter culture lifestyle. Meanwhile the US state department is flying the queer flag at its embassies around the world and using it to agitate foreign conservative cultures. I nominate being an unapologetic white male as the counter culture of our current time. Just watch how many downvotes you'll get on any social media platform for having this position.

PuppyTailWags 4y ago
Really confused by this statement. I think queer culture can be countercultural depending. For example legislation is currently up in some states to ban dressing in a way outside your sex because drag queens exist, but even though drag queens have a tv show and a movie and stuff I'm sure it'll also probably scoop a butch lesbian or two or just a regular tomboy woman.
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - dashundchen 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - lezojeda 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - clericbob 4y ago
        Yeah, those people are parents that send their kids to catholic school.
        dang 4y ago

xwolfi 4y ago

But it's not more a problem than the LSD-heavy semi hoboes partying in woodstock in the 70s: both interrogate us on how far we should go in our ways, propose ridiculously extreme alternatives we have to compromise with. Letting the trads speak a bit more might shock us just as much as the past minorities shocked our forefathers, but look where are: we evolved have't we ? Maybe we can ditch some dictat we imposed on ourselves in our chase for ever deeper reactionary counter-traditionalism.

undersuit 4y ago

I think this is ridiculous, LGBTQ is a minority. Trads are part of a waning majority. All evidence points towards LGBTQ always existing but just becoming more open. Trads being Counter Culture? That's the same double speak that gets us Citizens United and Right to Work. Where did these trads get their radically traditional values? From the majority.

irrational 4y ago
It is a minority, but if I go into work and announce that I am trans and will now be transitioning and my name is now X, people will fall all over themselves be supportive and congratulating me. It literally happened recently when Chris became Christina at my work. But, if I come in and announce that I have decided to become Catholic or Evangelical or Mormon there will be a lot of awkward silence with maybe some "okaaaaayyy, anyway, let's continue with the planning for the next project..."
- undersuit 4y ago
  Because no one needs to change the way they act around you. Christianity and Catholicism are strongly majority groups in the US. You were already treated as a Christian because that's what the majority of our society is based on.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - irrational 4y ago
    No, where I live you are considered to be a freak if you are religious. Announcing that you have joined a religion is like announcing you are trans in Alabama 50 years ago.
    - undersuit 4y ago
      OK, well I live in Montana and I still have arguments with people with Confederate state tattoos on their arms. Where do you live?

clericbob 4y ago

I think you're onto something, but you're missing a really key point of what makes a counterculture. Consider the 'culture'. Whose side is the balance of power really behind? There are massive influences and money behind traditional christian and conservative values - they have a practical stranglehold on the politics of roughly half of America (by landmass). Is it really 'counter' the culture to embody those values in areas where they are the norm? I think we don't have 'a' counterculture because we don't have 'a' culture, a unified one, in this country. Trad is as counterculture in California as radical queer/left ideology is in Alabama, and it gets muddier when you look at individual pockets of the opposite in rural areas or cities respectively. If anything, this cultural split over core values would make anything else - 'radical centrism' for instance - a counterculture in and of itself; except, that tends to be the tack taken by a lot of media (NPR, Meet the Press, etc.). Can that be counterculture? Alternatively, consider outside of mainstream politics. Co-op organizations, hacker/DIY circles, and protest movements are all certainly 'counter' the norm, but do they all have their own 'culture?' At best they have shared memes, no real ideological unity or even goddang clothing preferences.

standardUser 4y ago

It's always been "radical" to have "radically traditional values". Just look at the Amish or Orthodox Jews. It's just that the definition of "radically traditional" shifts in our own lifetimes, making cultural ideas that were normal when we were teenagers seem appalling 30 years later, and continued adherence to those views becomes radical.

ROTMetro 4y ago

Do these Trads have long standing institutions in their local communities for support of their culture? Why yes, they are called Churches, which don't have to operate underground in the USA like they do in China (expect when they are strange polygamy cults that often skew towards multiple underage wives), and they receive special state recognized privilege such as tax exemptions, within a society and government unabashedly based on 'judeo-christian' values. So, in line with the government under which they live, supported by longstanding cultural institutions well established in the community. Super counter culture.

ss108 4y ago

As someone who has grown more traditional and religious over the years (I'm 32), I agree.

noobermin 4y ago

I guess the question here is what does the words, "mainstream supported" mean? Most corporate brands and media try to appeal to certain minorities. Is this what you mean? The thing is despite the media focus, it still is the actual case that such minorities do not have actual power in society in terms of actual statistics, but the media is just a mirage, the reality is that certain disparities still exist, despite media representation. This might be the slightly different aspect of modern culture, that it does not amplify the already existing power group explicitly.

erybodyknows 4y ago
Interesting point. I guess the question is: is power inherently related to culture? And if so, to what degree? If culture is the outline of the dominant group in a society, perhaps the counterculture are those who occupy and inhabit its shadow.
- noobermin 4y ago
  So, I'm not sure this is obvious, but the current "progressive[0]" culture is pushed by the dominant group that does have power. By raw statistics, white men still wield most power in American society (and thus the world), and so the progressive culture that is dominant in media is the culture being written and put into vogue by people who are white men if you merely draw on the statistics. If you've ever observed twitter, a good chance is someone bleeting about "white people be like X" it is a white person doing it. A good meme on housing twitter is nimbys doing land acknowledgements while no Native Americans (or POC really) are actually present since they are economically excluded from said community. The thing is the statistics still speak for themselves. Despite the media, the PR campaigns, for example, software development still skews largely male. The spoken culture extols DEI, but the actual reality is still what is it by statistics. On some level, this might just be recuperation in action, but the point is that it still is ironically the culture of the majority. It isn't being "pushed" by the minority because the minority is by definition, the minority. It is being adopted (even recuperated) by the majority, often into a form that is acceptable for it. The difference is that the majority isn't really centering itself in that media. Except that on some level, if you listen to Slavoj Zizek, it actually is. Anyway, whether media or external culture really makes a difference materially (like minority representation in workplaces of high paying careers matching that of the population) it at least clear at this point that it either would take a lot of time to take effect, or possibly (probably even likely at this point) it has no real effect on actual power relations in society. [0] putting this in quotes because progressive encompasses more than what is accepted by the mainstream culture.

Dig1t 4y ago

People are scared to say this, because they quickly get labeled a Christofascist or alt-right something or other, but it's true. Trads are definitely the counter culture now. Tim Dillon made a joke recently, something along the lines of "The most radical non-conformist thing you can do now is wear rosary beads". I thought it was kind of funny, but also because it's true.

undersuit 4y ago
I grew up with a number of rosaries. I would have to bring them into my Catholic grade school and then we'd walk to the church on campus and spend the next hour reciting rote verses and trying to keep track of where I was on the rosary. Wearing rosary beads sounds like a counter culture move against the church if you ask me. Rosaries are almost sacred.
- mattpallissard 4y ago
  Not sure why you're getting the down votes. I attended a Catholic school and wearing a rosary was certainly frowned upon for the exact reason you state.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Wearing rosary beads sounds like a counter culture move against the church if you ask me. Wearing a rosary around the neck is common and accepted in some Catholic cultures and frowned upon in others. There is no general Catholic religious objection to it, it is just a matter of local cultural practice. (Publicly flaunting it while engaging in scandalous behavior is more generally frowned upon, of course, as heaping hypocrisy on top of the already-bad behavior.) Wearing a 15-decade rosary on the hip, in the same place a soldier would wear a sword, is traditional for the Dominican order.
  - undersuit 4y ago
    I'm not objecting to wearing them, my old biases object to them being worn as a fashion element. They are a tool, not a sign of your personal faith. The only people I ever saw with Rosaries every day were the Nuns who used them every day, even the priests would dress down on occasion.

flangola7 4y ago

There are literal state laws being passed increasingly criminalizing the existence of being trans, right now especially any kind of trans healthcare for kids (some legislatures are looking to extend it to adults). There have been mass killings specifically targeting LGBT+ individuals. Even merely informing someone of the pronouns you go by is almost guaranteed to bring flaming and harassment on most online platforms, often including right here on HN. I want to be charitable but it's hard to interpret this attitude as anything other than willful ignorance of very obvious facts.

kerpotgh 4y ago

I don’t think trads are counter culture because they are the vast, vast majority outside of major cities anyways. It’s about as normative as you can get.

MockObject 4y ago
How often do they see themselves represented positively in TV and movies?
- kerpotgh 4y ago
  [dead]

vlunkr 4y ago

I disagree that "trads" are counter-culture, just looking at the numbers that is pretty ridiculous. But you could consider the more extreme groups counter culture, like alt-right, q-anon, incels, 8-chan or wherever they are now. They are the worst of course, but I think they fit the description.

dnissley 4y ago

Here's one small "trad" expression I've seen that got some people riled up in the kind of way I would expect a counterculture to: the sqlite code of ethics https://sqlite.org/codeofethics.html https://sqlite.org/codeofethics.html Long hn thread about it from some months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31886687 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31886687

undersuit 4y ago
Two things can be true. Trads can be counter-cultural in the small tech society, and be the dominant culture in the majority of society.
- dnissley 4y ago
  Most people in the US at least do not slot into any particular subculture. They are "normies" for lack of a better term: they don't intentionally curate their cultural selves -- they may have picked up some "trad" trappings (wearing a cross necklace, possessing handwavy religious beliefs like "believing in God"), and they may have "woke/queer" trappings (flying a rainbow flag on their house, possessing handwavy political beliefs like "supporting trans rights").

zamfi 4y ago

What you’re observing isn’t a lack of counter-culture, it’s a lack of monolithic culture, though. In different parts of the country, or even different parts of the same city, the dominant culture is different. Living a “glorified lifestyle,” as you put it, in NY of SF? Sure, no one bats an eye. In the rural south? Different story. On the other hand — white man with “radically traditional values“, whatever that means, in suburban SLC? You’ll fit right in. In the Castro? Sure, you might feel out of place. Unlike the US of the 1950s, there is no apparent single pervasive monolithic culture — and thus there is no real “counterculture” that can exist in universal opposition to that dominant culture across the US. But rest assured that to the people living lives incongruent with their communities — including perhaps any “trads” in SF, NYC, etc. — their lives will feel pretty countercultural.

_gabe_ 4y ago
I live in the rural south and went to a private Christian university. They painted the statue of the school mascot a rainbow on pride month. My biblical ethics classes taught the opposite of what the Bible teaches. The students couldn't care less about the traditional aspects of Christianity. My friends at other Christian private universities had similar experiences. You don't have to be in NY, SF, or wherever to experience the trendy culture. It is pervasive everywhere.
- zamfi 4y ago
  > You don't have to be in NY, SF, or wherever to experience the trendy culture. It is pervasive everywhere. You don’t, which is why I said: > or even different parts of the same city But while it is present almost everywhere, it is not pervasive everywhere. Surely at your private Christian university there are many who hold traditional views — just as there are some at Berkeley, near me — and I’d be pretty surprised to learn that the kids painting your school’s mascot represent a majority perspective there.
  - eastof 4y ago
    Not sure why that would be surprising. Most get all their info from the internet where reactions to speech about traditional values ranges from mass disapproval to outright censorship. In our culture, almost any values from prior generations are treated as suspect. We live in an extremely progressive time when compared against historical periods. My particular gripe with this is how religion is viewed in popular culture. Despite our supposed multicultural values, much of the discussion on religion remains focused on Western/Abrahamic religions. Psychology/psychiatry is the new religion which is supposed to be able to guide our mental/spiritual health journey, but I'm of the opinion that it is failing miserably in this area, and we should be doing more to integrate ideas that have survived for thousands of years for a reason.

golemiprague 4y ago

[dead]

germinalphrase 4y ago

IDK. Maybe “radically” is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence, but I live in the upper Midwest and what you’re describing is the dominant culture.