4 ms·

> Are they? Isn't it possible that people who live in beautiful neighborhoods with mature trees, nice big yards, and low traffic streets that are safe for kids

> Are they? Isn't it possible that people who live in beautiful neighborhoods with mature trees, nice big yards, and low traffic streets that are safe for kids to play around, want to keep them that way for primarily those reasons? You mean like all the medium-density neighborhoods of San Francisco? American R-1 suburbs are a nightmare for kids, and that's why you never see any kids outside there, tell me how this: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Menlo+Park,+CA/@37.4562493,-122.160922,15.82z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x808fa6b1117280ff:0xebbf998e5df289ab!8m2!3d37.4529598!4d-122.1817252 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Menlo+Park,+CA/@37.4562493... , in one of America's most expensive suburbs, is any sort of safe for kids.

hcurtiss 4y ago
I live in a suburban R-1 neighborhood in Oregon and my kids play basketball, ride bikes, and roller skate in the street literally every day with boatloads of other kids. If that's your vision of a nightmare, I fear we're not going to agree on any of this.
- veec_cas_tant 4y ago
  I'm seriously shocked by how many people value the idea that kids can play in the street. Why not a park or other recreation area? I get that it isn't entirely common in the United States to build walkable parks but that is a United States problem, not a city problem. Cities built for living should offer much better alternatives to children than playing in the street.
  - frenchy 4y ago
    > Why not a park or other recreation area How do they get there? What might not be obvious is that the parks are often far away, because you can't afford to maintain many parks because the tax base is too small.
    - veec_cas_tant 4y ago
      I completely agree if we are talking about a typical suburb. A mixed-use area built for living doesn't have that issue. What I find really strange is that some people in these comments seem opposed to mixed-use areas BECAUSE their children will no longer be able to play in the streets. It's like some sort of weird, cyclical way of justifying the lack of proper pedestrian areas.
    - ryan_lane 4y ago
      If the tax base is too small for parks, it's also too small to pay for the street/road infrastructure, and that's being subsidized by people outside of the community. If a community can't afford basic infrastructure (which should include parks), it isn't zoned to be dense enough.
  - hcurtiss 4y ago
    We have a great park just down the street (about a block and a half), but the street is great and it's right outside. Maybe 10 cars per day travel our street. Besides, the street is paved for bikes and rollerskates. The park is, of course, not. Also, it's easier to keep tabs on the kids right out the front door than it is when they're unsupervised down at the park. But, yes, they also play at the park. They all run all over the damned place -- because it's a safe place and, culturally, the people living in the neighborhood have a high degree of trust and look out for one another. It's very difficult to replicate that in high density urban developments with the attendant problems those areas recruit (e.g., crime, homelessness, etc.).
nradov 4y ago
You don't see many kids in San Francisco because homes are tiny, prices are crazy, police don't enforce public order, and the public school system is mess. Opening up zoning restrictions is generally a good thing, but it's not going to make SF an attractive place for middle-class families to raise small children.

hcurtiss 4y ago

I live in a suburban R-1 neighborhood in Oregon and my kids play basketball, ride bikes, and roller skate in the street literally every day with boatloads of other kids. If that's your vision of a nightmare, I fear we're not going to agree on any of this.

veec_cas_tant 4y ago
I'm seriously shocked by how many people value the idea that kids can play in the street. Why not a park or other recreation area? I get that it isn't entirely common in the United States to build walkable parks but that is a United States problem, not a city problem. Cities built for living should offer much better alternatives to children than playing in the street.
- frenchy 4y ago
  > Why not a park or other recreation area How do they get there? What might not be obvious is that the parks are often far away, because you can't afford to maintain many parks because the tax base is too small.
  - veec_cas_tant 4y ago
    I completely agree if we are talking about a typical suburb. A mixed-use area built for living doesn't have that issue. What I find really strange is that some people in these comments seem opposed to mixed-use areas BECAUSE their children will no longer be able to play in the streets. It's like some sort of weird, cyclical way of justifying the lack of proper pedestrian areas.
  - ryan_lane 4y ago
    If the tax base is too small for parks, it's also too small to pay for the street/road infrastructure, and that's being subsidized by people outside of the community. If a community can't afford basic infrastructure (which should include parks), it isn't zoned to be dense enough.
- hcurtiss 4y ago
  We have a great park just down the street (about a block and a half), but the street is great and it's right outside. Maybe 10 cars per day travel our street. Besides, the street is paved for bikes and rollerskates. The park is, of course, not. Also, it's easier to keep tabs on the kids right out the front door than it is when they're unsupervised down at the park. But, yes, they also play at the park. They all run all over the damned place -- because it's a safe place and, culturally, the people living in the neighborhood have a high degree of trust and look out for one another. It's very difficult to replicate that in high density urban developments with the attendant problems those areas recruit (e.g., crime, homelessness, etc.).

nradov 4y ago

You don't see many kids in San Francisco because homes are tiny, prices are crazy, police don't enforce public order, and the public school system is mess. Opening up zoning restrictions is generally a good thing, but it's not going to make SF an attractive place for middle-class families to raise small children.