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Isn't it pretty irresponsible to commit a felony while you have a daughter and wife to take care of? I find his nonchalant delivery quite jarring. I don't unde
by dist1ll 4y ago
Isn't it pretty irresponsible to commit a felony while you have a daughter and wife to take care of?
I find his nonchalant delivery quite jarring. I don't understand what's going through his head here.
- Asooka 4y agoNo less irresponsible than charging a man with a felony over an obvious joke.
- ramraj07 4y agoHow is using fake IDs to board airplanes a joke? Only because we are mostly sure this particular man is an innocent manchild, but how exactly does that generalize?
- justsomehnguy 4y agoIf I understand it right what while the ID was 'fake' it had his real name on it. So it wasn't more 'fake' than your job ID card with the same data on it.
- crispyambulance 4y agoIt was the mid 80's, well before 9-11. Airport security was far more lax. Everything was far more lax. There was no way to easily verify ID anyway.
- dsomers 4y agoExactly this. As late as the 2001 I could cross into the US from Canada with as little as my birth certificate, which I often did. That was just a cotton blended paper with tattered edges with some writing, and the crest of my province printed on it. There wasn’t even a photo on it! It was closer to writing, ‘I’m daniel plz let me in’ on a napkin, than it is to my passport of today with its photo, barcode, and RFID chip that they can cross reference their data base with.
- rmason 4y agoActually before 9-11 you could enter Canada with only a Michigan drivers license. I did it all the time, had friends in Windsor and I'd drive down just to have dinner with them. Now you need either a passport or a special Michigan drivers license. Last time I renewed in person after COVID I tried to get one. The lady behind the counter said you don't want one of those. I asked her why and she told me that I'd hold up the line behind me. Since I was renewing months after my license expired due to the office being closed at the beginning of COVID I didn't argue with her.
- OJFord 4y agoAs little as a birth certificate? You can still cross EU borders with just a driving licence, or government issued ID where they have them. (In practice the vast majority using planes and boats at least probably do take a passport, I always did from the UK, but in theory you don't need one, so if you weren't planning to go elsewhere you wouldn't even need to get a passport.)
- messe 4y ago> You can still cross EU borders with just a driving licence, or government issued ID where they have them. For anybody unfamiliar with Europe, I just want to add that there aren't any checkpoints or border crossings, you just drive through or walk over. Half the time you won't even notice you're doing it. You're just supposed to have your ID on your person when you do. Ireland (and previously the UK) is the only major exception to this, as it's part of the common travel area alongside the UK. In practice, this doesn't make a huge difference when you're an Irish or EU citizen (it does if you're a tourist who needs a different visa to visit), as it's an island, and airlines require a form of ID to board anyway. When travelling from Ireland to Schengen, I usually have a passport in my carry on luggage as a backup, and take my passport-card (similar to a national ID card) in my wallet.
- dfawcus 4y agoI though the point of the Irish passport card was that it is a passport (not a national ID card), but that the only place where it is needed / accepted is in other EU MS (due to format, and lack of ability to be stamped)? Note - the EU includes a passport union, which has been in place since the EEC days. i.e. that there should be no need to also carry your passport, unless intending to travel on outwith the EU?
- ksaj 4y agoYes, it was a very different world than it is now. I had a 22 caliber rifle when I was a tween. That wasn't uncommon because I lived in the country, and you pretty much needed such things to scare coyotes and wolves off the yard without hurting them. Obviously it can kill them, but you don't actually shoot them - you shoot close enough they understand the sound from your gun, and the sound on the ground right in front of them. Pretty effective. It got jammed once, so I walked into town with it cocked open over my shoulder to get it fixed. They can't be fired when cocked open. Nobody batted an eye. Not that people did that all the time, but everyone knew everyone, and easily figured the story would turn out more simple and mundane than the optics. It was the early 80's and there was a lot less angst. And it was just a simple local hardware store that fixed it for me. By the 90's, that would never fly, and no hardware store would fix a kid's gun (or anyone's for that matter) in that very same town. By then you needed a Firearms Acquisition Cert, which no tween could possibly get. I used to buy cigarettes for my mom, too. That was also legal back then. The 80's was a sort of cross over period that way.
- LinuxBender 4y agoThis is still a thing in some places. I am in a very rural area. It is not uncommon for hunters to get out of their vehicle at the gas station here with their rifles to reposition their gear. It would probably be unsettling to a tourist.
- hindsightbias 4y agoRifles in truck window gun racks was a thing. In my high school parking lot.
- MrPatan 4y agoDo you have to show your papers when you board a bus?
- blowski 4y agoI used to have to show a photocard with my travel pass. It had a picture of a lemming on it and yet it was never rejected.
- OJFord 4y agoYou didn't have to do that though, you presumably could've paid cash or card or whatever for a single ticket? The photo I assume was just to stop people sharing a pass.
- ramraj07 4y agoYes, you have to now, actually, in most greyhounds in most cities within 100 miles of the US border.
- iso1210 4y agoThat's so sad in the "land of the free" Do you have to show photo ID when filling up with gas within 100 miles of the border?
- klardotsh 4y agoTheoretically you can be immigration checked anywhere within 100 miles of any US border, which includes a huge majority of the populace. See https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone
- sneak 4y agoThe fact that fake IDs work means that blacklisted people can board aircraft. This is true regardless of whether or not non-criminals like Woz can. A non-criminal using a fake ID is a victimless "crime", and as it is harmless, there is no moral issue with the performance of the act.
- joxel 4y agoImagine simping for the TSA this hard
- stavros 4y agoIt's interesting now normalized it's become to have to show your papers before boarding public transport.
- concordDance 4y agoWithin-country airplane boarding shouldn't need ID. The security theatre procedures are the joke here. Showing fake IDs is harmless.
- Symbiote 4y agoIn much of Europe that's still the case. You can use an electronic or home-printed boarding pass and travel within the Schegen Zone and not be checked otherwise. I've never tried to buy a ticket with false details though.
- KyeRussell 4y agoYou only think that it’s not a joke because over 20 years ago some people committed the single most successful act of terrorism in recent history. Was Woz meant to look into the future and be mindful of your presumably American sensitivities?
- ramraj07 4y agoI’m Indian and india had fairly strict airline procedures even before 2001. Because flight terrorism has a longer history than 9/11. Im curious how you concluded I might be too America focused when you ignored all the countries that has had to battle terrorism for much longer.
- iso1210 4y agoBush and the Congress in general certainly did commit the single most successful act of terrorism in recent history. I'm not sure how showing ID would have prevented that though. The US public brought it on themselves, and today's world is a world away from the hacking culture of the 1980s
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- fxtentacle 4y agoYour word choice of "manchild" is really really weird. I don't see anything childish about the story, he's just a playful man.
- jrochkind1 4y agoI don't recall if it was specifically 9/11 that it changed, but I definitely recall that you did not used to have show to ID to get on a plane at all. And at some early points when you did, it was more just like kind of informally showing you were the ticket-holder, not really about security. His "fake ID" saying he was a "laser inspector" is really just an employee ID for a very unsuccesful business he started, right? If they take an employee ID, what's the difference. it just... wasn't actually a big deal back then. But yeah, in general... it's kind of painful to remember how much less we interacted with security checkpoints 30 years ago, and how much we've gotten used to living in a security state. The phrase "show me your papers" used to be a kind of shorthand for the idea that in a "fascist" state threatening law enforcement is always asking you for ID, but in "America" we can live our lives without interacting with such security apparatus. I doubt people think about it like that, as we live it now too, it's totally normalized. that the reader may find it hard to believe that you didn't really have to show official ID to get on a plane, or that you could use a homemade employee ID... just demonstrates how normalized and forever-seeming the security state has become. Although last I checked, you could actually still fly without ID, you need to fill out a form and get extra screening/pat down. Don't know if the "Real ID" stuff has changed that or what.
- iso1210 4y agoStill the case in the UK, no law saying you have to provide any ID on a domestic flight (although you'll need a boarding pass), certainly I don't whenever I fly domestically (rarely). Some airlines require ID for ticket purposes (to prevent you from selling your ticket to someone else). Flights between the UK and Ireland are a little trickier, you don't need a passport, as long as you can prove you are either British or Irish. If you don't have a photo ID you can fly from the UK to Belfast and then drive/train/bus to the Republic. The requirement for a passport and appropriate visa on international flights departing from the UK is I think solely an airline requirement, as if you land in a country you don't have a right to immigrate to the airline gets fined. If you're flying privately it's a different matter. Obviously you need a passport or other authority to travel when you get to the border of another country (Ireland being the obvious exception for the UK).
- ilyt 4y agoIt's making a joke out of procedure to check ID that doesn't serve any purpose (even if it might be funny only to prankster) when even obvious fakes pass without problem.
- hyperhopper 4y agoHow is it not a joke? It's something funny. There is no harm in it. You may argue, "what if he was a terrorist!" But he wasn't. He caused no harm here.
- crispyambulance 4y agoIt was a different era, people were more cool and playful back then.
- ramraj07 4y agoNot to mention not looking like a minority was a fairly strong shield back then and even is today.
- tukantje 4y ago[flagged]
- FearlessNebula 4y agoIt’s more that he is affluent. Try to imagine white trash pulling this stunt and it wouldn’t go well either.
- slackfan 4y agoAs proud trailer trash -- fucking with the feds is a time honoured tradition, and we have done similar and gotten away with more. Please stop being so condescending.
- Quarrelsome 4y agoI mean, we still end up in jail cells for a few hours. But sure, we might get off with a slap on the wrist.
- ipaddr 4y agoProbably the stupidest discussion on hw.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- gandalfian 4y agoIf it has his correct details is it actually a fake ID?
- akerl_ 4y agoYes.
- dxdm 4y agoYes.
- AuthorizedCust 4y agoIt’s only fake if it’s imitating an ID issued by some other organization.
- oytis 4y agoYes
- ztrww 4y agoNot necessarily
- papito 4y ago[flagged]
- thewrongthinker 4y ago[flagged]
- tukantje 4y agoYour racism is showing. What level of stupidity does someone need to think that it is only "muh European people" that have "an innate curiosity and self confidence"?
- tukantje 4y agoI am quite an upstanding person, didn't commit crimes and when I see police I change the side of the street I am walking on even. As a minority, the police is scary. It only takes one bad apple for my life to take a turn for the worse. As it turns out, there is a non-negligible percentage of the population that hates my guts because of colour, so might as well be safe.
- ThunderSizzle 4y agoNot to belittle your stance, but everything you said is true regardless whether your a minority or not. Police can be scary, regardless if their skin color matches yours or not. They have near absolute authority to do nearly anything, and you'll lose in a he said-he said court case. But good officers can also be a substantial positive impact on society.
- tukantje 4y agoHence the last sentence of my comment. Whilst police is scary in general, it is much more likely for me to have an issue with them than someone who is a middle aged white guy, dressed well etc. People tend to judge others based off of stereotypes, i.e. "which box does this one fit in", and I know that the options for me, on average, are not super lovely. As such, this isn't an argument for or against police or officers. It is something that highlights the "abusable authority" and for some minorities how the police is more "willing" to do so, on average. Hell, we are at the point where standup comedians are joking as "police wouldn't shoot me, I am not black" since it is quite a widespread fact by now.
- gonzo41 4y agoWell at that time, micro-dosing lsd perhaps.... :P
- fsloth 4y agoI don’t understand why you presume woz had a responsibility to ”take a care of his wife”?
- dist1ll 4y agoPeople in a romantic relationship usually take care of each other.
- rwalle 4y agoYeah. It would never occur to me to ask such a question. I guess time has changed and people will find problem in each and every sentence.
- fsloth 4y agoIn context of ”the husband has potentially dangerous quirky hobbies, should he stop them or not”, not ”it’s ok to go ahead and ruin your familys finances” - the latter is not really a realistic scenario here.
- NikolaNovak 4y agoIn most western marriages, people agree to take care of each other, frequently explicitly as part of their ceremony. Source: attended 100+ weddings as a photographer.
- fsloth 4y agoMaybe it’s my nordic background where people value independence (perhaps patholohically so). In general if a husband had any moderately dangerous hobbies it would sound a bit weird where I’m from that they stopped them just because they got married and had kids. And if they had apprehended Woz he would probably had a lawyer to bail him out and smooth things over. So coming from these two directions the argument that fooling around was somehow traitorous behaviour towards his wife sounded really odd.
- 4y ago
- szundi 4y agoThose times you would not go to jail for having fun with an agent.
- kingkawn 4y agoFfs man just stop
- tankenmate 4y agoTo be convicted the prosecution needs to prove mens rea (providing a fake ID isn't strict liability), his thinking of why he chose to do this would make prosecution a fair bit harder (but obviously not impossible).
- D13Fd 4y agohttps://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1028 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1028 His quote reads like a confession...
- LawTalkingGuy 4y agoNot of intending to trick them into thinking he was anyone other than himself. The main issue is that he's not at the Department of Defense HQ presenting his Department of Defiance ID, claiming to be with the government but intending to present the joke as an excuse if it fails. In this case he wasn't trying to claim to be government to get out of anything so it's pretty obvious that it's a joke. > 18 U.S. Code § 1028 (4)knowingly possesses an identification document (other than one issued lawfully for the use of the possessor), authentication feature, or a false identification document, with the intent such document or feature be used to defraud the United States; He wasn't using the fake part of the ID, just his real name, and it's obvious that it wouldn't have done him any good to do so because there's no legal exemption for laser safety officers. It's pretty obvious that there was intent, this was a conscious act, but also that there was not intent to defraud.
- scotty79 4y ago> I don't understand what's going through his head here. Defiance
- decremental 4y ago[flagged]
- cmrdporcupine 4y agoShit was very different, in terms of interaction with the security apparatus of the state, pre-9/11.
- fxtentacle 4y agoYeah. Imagine bringing ESTES toy rockets in hand luggage nowadays. They used to be a popular gift for kids.
- dereg 4y agoI can’t help but shake my head at most of these comments. There was a time when we celebrated anecdotes like this here on Hacker News. I’ve seen this story circulated many times but this is the first time I’ve seen this sort of reaction. These aren’t rose colored glasses, anyone can look up threads of old in which we cheered such defiance toward authority. People are frothing to frame this story with 2023 glasses and, to me, this reaction makes it all the more clear how today’s culture is so corrosive. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe it’s not about privilege of rich white men. Maybe it’s about the rigid conformism that the tech industry has imbued in its people in this past decade. The screams of people glued to Anki preparing for leetcode interviews, not understanding why someone would dare challenge the status quo. Regardless, it’s a sign of the times.
- sandworm101 4y agoThat was before we knew that real people suffer after pulling similar stunts. We all know of someone who did something stupid and has faced a lifetime of consiquence. Nobody dares put a fake bomb in a school locker (Woz did that) or give false documents to police for fun. Such things are no longer jokes. They screw up entire lives. I used to ride fast motorcycles. I know people who ran from the police for fun. Better camera tech in recent years means nobody gets away with that anymore. And when caught, your life grinds to a hault.
- ztrww 4y agoI’m really unsure whether doing the same thing now would have a high risk of “screwing up” your life. It’s not like he showed anyone a counterfeit ID. What he did is the same as showing a random company ID. Not exactly grounds for arrest especially if he can provide a driver’s license if asked to.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- sandworm101 4y agoIt was a counterfeit ID. If the cop reading it walks away with the reasonable, but false, belief that the person works for the dod, he has presented a counterfeit ID. If he did it to trick the cop, he has knowingly presented false information/lied to police.
- jrochkind1 4y agoYeah, my reaction was -- after he read you your miranda rights, why were you even talking to him without a lawyer? But after thinking about it more -- and I'm in my mid-40s -- I think what it also reminds us of is that law enforcement actually used to be a lot more reasonable -- to be clear, this may probably only apply to white people who appear as if they are not poor. But I think maybe the police (whether local or national security) have actually maybe gotten a lot more intense in the past 30 years. Possibly actually more intense for everyone. The risks of "messing with" security personel, at least for middle-class-appearing white guys, was very definitely a lot less back then.
- scarface74 4y ago> think what it also reminds us of is that law enforcement actually used to be a lot more reasonable No, it just use to be a lot less recorded… And no minority with a sense of history would say that police have ever been “reasonable”
- jrochkind1 4y agoSo in my comment that was only like five sentances, one of them was "to be clear, this may probably only apply to white people who appear as if they are not poor", right? I'm curious if you are old enough to remember the 80s, although I'm not going to bet any precious precious donuts about it. How state violence and repression was in the 80s isn't good enough, agreed. But things actually do change, get better and worse in different dimensions. If we insist that things have always been exactly as they are, then it seems fatalistic, they can't possibly change, this is the way it's always been and always will be. But things do change. If they were better in some ways 30 years ago, then this isn't inevitable. Woz was a prankster, including against those in authority. Look up some of the pranks the MIT "hackers" pulled back in the day. Today, some of them would probably get you arrested on domestic terrorism charges. This is not an improvement, even if it's true that the police of course have always been brutal in some times and places, especially depending on social position of the victims. But nobody (I hope) is looking for equality of brutal discipline, equally oppressive to all.
- SergeAx 4y agoThe presense of wife actually makes this trick much safer. She is a capable adult and can take care of herself and daughter.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- moomoo11 4y agoThat is why he is Woz and you are.. who?
- starkd 4y agoOr maybe this is just a story that didn't really happen. Not exactly something that can be readily fact-checked.
- erosenbe0 4y agoWoz is embellishing for dramatic effect. Decades ago, picture ID meant anything. You could get on a plane sometimes with a school ID. Before holograms and bar codes on driver's licenses, all IDs were presumed to be garbage and just a way to get the spelling of a person's name if in fact the ID was real. Woz was not in custody and is therefore exaggerating about being Mirandized. He played a prank by giving his clown employee ID. It was in Casinoland where people had goofy job titles and this wouldn't have been so crazy. Nothing to see here. That said, if he had been in actual trouble or has been committing forgery, the clown ID would have been a bad move.
- RogerL 4y agoMid 80s I flew home to visit family. Wallet was stolen while rock climbing (I foolishly left it at the base in my pack). Have to fly home, what to do?? Easy peasy. Go to the local ski mountain where I knew the employees, had them make me a bogus laminated employee card with my photo on it, and flew back home using it for my id. No problem.
- landemva 4y agoI flew in mid-90s with no ID on tickets booked in name of office manager. Can still fly in USA without ID. The checkpoint "agents" have you sign a special form. Last summer I "Scotch" taped the crap out of the barcode and picture on my passport. Checkpoint person asked me why and I mumbled because the real answer was "to see what happens." She called supervisor and he quickly waved me through. May be different effect at immigration.
- aflag 4y agoI get the daughter, but why does the wife need being taken care of?