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EDIT: I AM NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT THIS. I'm responding to parent saying it's not an actual problem: > So this whole thing seems like a non issue. ... Apple d

EDIT: I AM NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT THIS. I'm responding to parent saying it's not an actual problem: > So this whole thing seems like a non issue. ... Apple doesn't seem able to "produce a receipt" if you purchased the MacBook with cash or a discontinued credit card in their store. I have a lovely pristine 2019 MacBook Pro 16" that I put firmware password on before crossing international borders, before pandemic. The Ventura update broke boot. I have to boot to recovery partition, but cannot. No idea what "this is obvious" firmware pass I came up with. THIS IS MY FAULT. But a surprisingly expensive fault… I have the original welcome to new Mac on your Apple ID email a couple days after purchase, the Mac is active in my Find My, the Mac is under AppleCare to me which I have. Apple will not unlock it without receipt, which I do not have, and, no longer having an account with that card provider, cannot produce. This 2019 MacBook Pro sells used for $4,689 from Apple today: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/G14X6LL/A/refurbished-16-inch-macbook-pro-apple-m1-max-chip-with-10%E2%80%91core-cpu-and-32%E2%80%91core-gpu-space-gray?fnode=82d89ae7f2b1ea6e0dd0c7a7aa9aa1079e1177ede9798ca1b1e95853edceee5cdd52c30381af5732bdea9f8fd726be725db63fd2d695100880a7b7f8396673930376b4fe8753a174388530cba17ec78b https://www.apple.com/shop/product/G14X6LL/A/refurbished-16-... So for me, it's an issue. // At the same time, this is a reason we provide MacBook Pros to employees: we can take comfort losing one in NYC or Mumbai probably isn't going to compromise company data. This is worth the cost to me personally, and makes me an advocate of Apple's security work.

michpoch 4y ago
How are they supposed to produce the receipt? You’re supposed to have it. They gave it to your hand or send it to you over email.
- afavour 4y ago
  Are you suggesting their system did not record the sale? I agree that OP should have the receipt but I'm quite sure Apple has the data for that sale somewhere.
  - michpoch 4y ago
    I am suggesting that if I bring a laptop and ask them to produce a receipt of its purchase it’d not prove that I purchased the laptop. Anyone could do it and then use that receipt to say they bought it in the first place.
    - afavour 4y ago
      OP bought it with a credit card, I'd be surprised if there was no record of any name, address or ZIP code attached to the purchase.
    - accrual 4y ago
      Indeed. The receipt should serve as proof of purchase from the purchaser to the vendor. I'm sure Apple does have proof on their side, likely even tied to the serial number, credit card, Apple ID, etc., but going to an Apple Store and asking them to verify your identity and connect the dots... that's probably out of scope for their everyday support. OP would need to work with a higher tier of support to reestablish ownership and receipt, which maybe isn't unreasonable to do.
      - Terretta 4y ago
        This is probably right. Apple business has told me no guarantees but as a company owner I could possibly get an exception through our company's Enterprise Support, which, as a user of that service, I have observed being more empowered than the consumer channel. Whether that might work or not, it's likely not available to casual purchasers.
  - joshspankit 4y ago
    Exactly. And most likely in a DB column directly connected to the serial number.
- jefftk 4y ago
  In this case it seems like Apple has more than enough information to verify that Terretta is the valid owner of this computer, and so they should unlock it. Whether this goes via "reissue the receipt, then unlock it" or just "unlock it" isn't important.
  - michpoch 4y ago
    I agree on that point, but not on the one where Apple should give him the original proof of purchase.
    - buran77 4y ago
      Apple knows the time and place of each product (SN) they sell, and they know who activated it to their account. They should certainly be technically able to produce the receipt at the time of sale but also a duplicate later. > Apple doesn't seem able to "produce a receipt" if you purchased the MacBook with cash or a discontinued credit card in their store. I'm not sure if this is standard policy or a fluke. If true then Apple should absolutely not demand that proof of purchase back from the owner at any point. I can't imagine how it's legal to sell that in a store and not provide proof of purchase but that's a different matter.
      - Someone 4y ago
        > They should certainly be technically able to produce the receipt at the time of sale but also a duplicate later. For privacy reasons, they might not legally be allowed to keep purchase history around forever.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        jefftk 4y ago
        I don't read the parent as wanting support going back indefinitely; 2019 to 2023 is well within when the company should have sale records. You generally need to keep them for at least seven years from when you file taxes, which might be more like eight years from the sale: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-long-should-you-keep-business-records.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-long-should-you-...
stcroixx 4y ago
Damn. Are you going to continue being an Apple customer?
- Terretta 4y ago
  Yes. Since this was refused, I've bought two new iPad Pros, two new MacBook Airs, a MacBook M1 Pro, and now the new M2 Pro, from the same store. I like that I can't get into it. It gives me comfort employee machines with company IP cannot be readily compromised.
  - jdiez17 4y ago
    OT, but I find this fascinating: did you buy all of those computers for yourself? If so, why do you need to upgrade them so frequently?
  - elteto 4y ago
    What happened to you really sucks and I am sure you took away a lesson or two from it. But you have a really good point... "if it didn't work for me then I'm sure it won't work for an actual criminal" it's a good point. In a way, you pen-tested Apple's anti-fraud processes... although at your own expense ;)
dijit 4y ago
They ask you for an email address when you buy a high ticket price product (which, let's face it, is basically all products). I understand you're upset, but sadly I have to say to you that this is working as intended. 1) You bought a machine and can't prove it. 2) You enabled authentication which you lost 3) You also lost your backup to the account How can they help you? How can anyone help you? You've made it nearly impossible to distinguish yourself from a thief or random stranger.
- Terretta 4y ago
  I'm not upset. I can prove it to a remarkable degree with the welcome email 3 days after this model was launched. I didn't lose backup to account. I'd already migrated to the latest M1 MacBook, and my account is fine. There's appears to me to be no backup to the firmware lock, there is a backup to FileVault, I have file vault. I get it and am not complaining. But person above me said it wasn't a real problem. My point is, it can be a $4500 problem for a legitimate purchaser.
  - RobertRoberts 4y ago
    Can you sell it to a friend, give him a legitimate receipt (from you) and have him go to Apple? (seems like a hack, but it checks the ownership box for your friend)
    - zakki 4y ago
      This is a good advice to try. Ask someone to buy it from your eBay list. Using that receipt ask Apple to unlock the laptop.
      - RobertRoberts 4y ago
        It would seem nearly bonkers that this would work though.
  - godzillabrennus 4y ago
    Maybe try and take Apple to small claims court for not honoring the warranty?
ipython 4y ago
You can probably get your old card issuer to pull up your statement. I’ve done similar stuff in the past with closed brokerage accounts. It may be an involved process and take a while to reach the right person but worth a try at least!
DarthNebo 4y ago
Pretty sure they wouldn't let you walk out of a store without issuing a receipt regardless of mode of payment used
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
accrual 4y ago
This is a silly idea but wanted to throw it out there anyway: What if you listed the laptop for sale on eBay, then bought it back using a friend or another account? Could that be used as "proof of sale" for Apple to unlock it?
- Terretta 4y ago
  This is brilliant. Hopefully it's not that easy. Worth the ebay fee to try!
  - jareklupinski 4y ago
    looking forward to your blog post with the story up on HN :)
- ballenf 4y ago
  Isn’t listing stolen laptops on eBay the exact thing purported to be the problem? If thieves can just list on eBay and tell user to take the receipt to Apple…
xenospn 4y ago
You linked to an M1 model, but apple did not make these in 2019.
- Terretta 4y ago
  You're right. Wrong link.
jojobas 4y ago
This amounts to not owning the device in my book.
- alphabettsy 4y ago
  How so? The owner set a password that they cannot remember.
  - jojobas 4y ago
    The vendor can reset it, but wouldn't, and can block the device at will (say if reported stolen with a receipt).
HeadsUpHigh 4y ago
I can't stop laughing at the shit apple users justify and put themselves through. You should be able to wipe everything clean and reinstall the OS without the need of any fancy firmware nonsense. But apple convinced their mac users that that's ancient tech and they need firmware passwords now( lol).

michpoch 4y ago

How are they supposed to produce the receipt? You’re supposed to have it. They gave it to your hand or send it to you over email.

afavour 4y ago
Are you suggesting their system did not record the sale? I agree that OP should have the receipt but I'm quite sure Apple has the data for that sale somewhere.
- michpoch 4y ago
  I am suggesting that if I bring a laptop and ask them to produce a receipt of its purchase it’d not prove that I purchased the laptop. Anyone could do it and then use that receipt to say they bought it in the first place.
  - afavour 4y ago
    OP bought it with a credit card, I'd be surprised if there was no record of any name, address or ZIP code attached to the purchase.
  - accrual 4y ago
    Indeed. The receipt should serve as proof of purchase from the purchaser to the vendor. I'm sure Apple does have proof on their side, likely even tied to the serial number, credit card, Apple ID, etc., but going to an Apple Store and asking them to verify your identity and connect the dots... that's probably out of scope for their everyday support. OP would need to work with a higher tier of support to reestablish ownership and receipt, which maybe isn't unreasonable to do.
    - Terretta 4y ago
      This is probably right. Apple business has told me no guarantees but as a company owner I could possibly get an exception through our company's Enterprise Support, which, as a user of that service, I have observed being more empowered than the consumer channel. Whether that might work or not, it's likely not available to casual purchasers.
- joshspankit 4y ago
  Exactly. And most likely in a DB column directly connected to the serial number.
jefftk 4y ago
In this case it seems like Apple has more than enough information to verify that Terretta is the valid owner of this computer, and so they should unlock it. Whether this goes via "reissue the receipt, then unlock it" or just "unlock it" isn't important.
- michpoch 4y ago
  I agree on that point, but not on the one where Apple should give him the original proof of purchase.
  - buran77 4y ago
    Apple knows the time and place of each product (SN) they sell, and they know who activated it to their account. They should certainly be technically able to produce the receipt at the time of sale but also a duplicate later. > Apple doesn't seem able to "produce a receipt" if you purchased the MacBook with cash or a discontinued credit card in their store. I'm not sure if this is standard policy or a fluke. If true then Apple should absolutely not demand that proof of purchase back from the owner at any point. I can't imagine how it's legal to sell that in a store and not provide proof of purchase but that's a different matter.
    - Someone 4y ago
      > They should certainly be technically able to produce the receipt at the time of sale but also a duplicate later. For privacy reasons, they might not legally be allowed to keep purchase history around forever.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - jefftk 4y ago
        I don't read the parent as wanting support going back indefinitely; 2019 to 2023 is well within when the company should have sale records. You generally need to keep them for at least seven years from when you file taxes, which might be more like eight years from the sale: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-long-should-you-keep-business-records.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-long-should-you-...

stcroixx 4y ago

Damn. Are you going to continue being an Apple customer?

Terretta 4y ago
Yes. Since this was refused, I've bought two new iPad Pros, two new MacBook Airs, a MacBook M1 Pro, and now the new M2 Pro, from the same store. I like that I can't get into it. It gives me comfort employee machines with company IP cannot be readily compromised.
- jdiez17 4y ago
  OT, but I find this fascinating: did you buy all of those computers for yourself? If so, why do you need to upgrade them so frequently?
- elteto 4y ago
  What happened to you really sucks and I am sure you took away a lesson or two from it. But you have a really good point... "if it didn't work for me then I'm sure it won't work for an actual criminal" it's a good point. In a way, you pen-tested Apple's anti-fraud processes... although at your own expense ;)

dijit 4y ago

They ask you for an email address when you buy a high ticket price product (which, let's face it, is basically all products). I understand you're upset, but sadly I have to say to you that this is working as intended. 1) You bought a machine and can't prove it. 2) You enabled authentication which you lost 3) You also lost your backup to the account How can they help you? How can anyone help you? You've made it nearly impossible to distinguish yourself from a thief or random stranger.

Terretta 4y ago
I'm not upset. I can prove it to a remarkable degree with the welcome email 3 days after this model was launched. I didn't lose backup to account. I'd already migrated to the latest M1 MacBook, and my account is fine. There's appears to me to be no backup to the firmware lock, there is a backup to FileVault, I have file vault. I get it and am not complaining. But person above me said it wasn't a real problem. My point is, it can be a $4500 problem for a legitimate purchaser.
- RobertRoberts 4y ago
  Can you sell it to a friend, give him a legitimate receipt (from you) and have him go to Apple? (seems like a hack, but it checks the ownership box for your friend)
  - zakki 4y ago
    This is a good advice to try. Ask someone to buy it from your eBay list. Using that receipt ask Apple to unlock the laptop.
    - RobertRoberts 4y ago
      It would seem nearly bonkers that this would work though.
- godzillabrennus 4y ago
  Maybe try and take Apple to small claims court for not honoring the warranty?

ipython 4y ago

You can probably get your old card issuer to pull up your statement. I’ve done similar stuff in the past with closed brokerage accounts. It may be an involved process and take a while to reach the right person but worth a try at least!

DarthNebo 4y ago

Pretty sure they wouldn't let you walk out of a store without issuing a receipt regardless of mode of payment used

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

accrual 4y ago

This is a silly idea but wanted to throw it out there anyway: What if you listed the laptop for sale on eBay, then bought it back using a friend or another account? Could that be used as "proof of sale" for Apple to unlock it?

Terretta 4y ago
This is brilliant. Hopefully it's not that easy. Worth the ebay fee to try!
- jareklupinski 4y ago
  looking forward to your blog post with the story up on HN :)
ballenf 4y ago
Isn’t listing stolen laptops on eBay the exact thing purported to be the problem? If thieves can just list on eBay and tell user to take the receipt to Apple…

xenospn 4y ago

You linked to an M1 model, but apple did not make these in 2019.

Terretta 4y ago
You're right. Wrong link.

jojobas 4y ago

This amounts to not owning the device in my book.

alphabettsy 4y ago
How so? The owner set a password that they cannot remember.
- jojobas 4y ago
  The vendor can reset it, but wouldn't, and can block the device at will (say if reported stolen with a receipt).

HeadsUpHigh 4y ago

I can't stop laughing at the shit apple users justify and put themselves through. You should be able to wipe everything clean and reinstall the OS without the need of any fancy firmware nonsense. But apple convinced their mac users that that's ancient tech and they need firmware passwords now( lol).