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https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/01/24/right-to-repair-advocate-urges-apple-to-let-resellers-bypass-security-protocols https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/

https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/01/24/right-to-repair-advocate-urges-apple-to-let-resellers-bypass-security-protocols https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/01/24/right-to-repair-a... > However, he neglects to mention that Apple already has a process to do this for legally-obtained products. > The process is very simple. If a user has purchased an Apple product through means that will produce a receipt, like through eBay, users can request Activation Lock to be removed. All the user has to do is navigate to Apple Support and provide a receipt as proof. > The problem Bumstead is likely running into is MDM or mobile device management. Apple will not unlock products that were previously part of an MDM system that's still attached. So devices sent to a recycling center to be destroyed are being picked up and resold. So this whole thing seems like a non issue.

fnordpiglet 4y ago
I would note that a legal way to get a laptop is to have it given to you. Not every transaction that transfers ownership entails a receipt from a corporation or even the exchange of money.
- xoa 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - trinsic2 4y ago
    think these discussions can be higher quality if you spend a minute thinking through your hot takes and doing a bit of research. In this case, > > if a device is given to you, why can't you have the person giving it to you (assuming they're the legitimate owner obviously) remove activation lock if they forgot? Because it creates too much friction at the point of transfer. Decryption security should be handled in a way that the decouples user data from the device itself. There will always be theft. The impact that we have on the planet is something we can no longer afford to ignore. This isn't an issue of turning off our brains. We have two problems we have an issue with theft and how security mechanisms that are tied directly to the device strongly prevents reuse and resale.
    - foldr 4y ago
      >Because it creates too much friction at the point of transfer. It takes literally a minute.
    - NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
      >Because it creates too much friction at the point of transfer. The definition of the desired process outcome is "it is demonstrable that the asset was transferred willingly". What is your idea of "less friction at the point of transfer" that achieves that goal? Otherwise, we're back to "this is indistinguishable from theft".
      - widowlark 4y ago
        Who is the authority that determines that "it is demonstrable that the asset was transferred willingly"?
        fnordpiglet 4y ago
        Receipts from Best Buy
        trinsic2 4y ago
        No, its Apple inserting themselves into the process. The same process apple uses to deny independent computer repair centers access to parts. This isn't about preventing theft. Its about apple controlling how hardware is accessed and used and you can see that be how the treat their customers and repair centers.
        NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
        >No, its Apple inserting themselves into the process. How exactly do you think this works, without a trusted third party?
        trinsic2 4y ago
  - LightHugger 4y ago
    These discussions would be higher quality of blatant apple shills didn't write 4 paragraphs defending an obviously flawed policy that is objectively sending good hardware to the landfill.
    - dang 4y ago
      You can't post like this to HN, regardless of how wrong other people or you feel they are. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. Note this one: "Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data."
  - fnordpiglet 4y ago
    I would say not everyone who has the activation lock enabled knows it exists or how to remove it. My parents, for instance. I fully expect one day they’ll take it to goodwill and it’ll be slag. I’m actually not concerned about this. The security value is higher. I’m just pointing out ownership doesn’t require a receipt.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - jeroenhd 4y ago
    My dad was given an old company laptop a while back. He has since switched jobs. The laptop is locked with an UEFI password but is no longer in anyone's system and I doubt anyone ever stored a real receipt. He has a receipt from the company that gave him the laptop I believe, but the manufacturer won't ever take that as proof of ownership. > In this case, if a device is given to you, why can't you have the person giving it to you (assuming they're the legitimate owner obviously) remove activation lock if they forgot? The device was given away after it was written off. The data related to it has been deleted, there is no receipt any more. I don't have the receipt of the laptop I bought seven years ago, why should I?. > Why not check the device quickly at time of transaction? They could have, but they forgot. Now they can't. You can think of processes and procedures all you want but in real life people lose receipts and forget to check some stuff.
  - donmcronald 4y ago
    > In this case, if a device is given to you, why can't you have the person giving it to you (assuming they're the legitimate owner obviously) remove activation lock if they forgot? What happens if the original owner died?
    - pulisse 4y ago
      Apple will transfer control to a legal heir.
      - zakki 4y ago
        Does it also need the receipt?
  - LarryMullins 4y ago
    [flagged]
judge2020 4y ago
Can anyone confirm this? The article AppleInsider links[0] doesn't seem to have a way to upload a receipt. And I don't see how this would be possible without Apple verifying that the seller's name matches the name on the Apple ID, since, otherwise, thieves could launder devices via "selling" them via ebay once (for a 12% fee), or telling buyers of stolen devices to submit their receipt to Apple to get around the lock. 0: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201365 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201365
- philliphaydon 4y ago
  https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201441 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201441 Seems to be an option at the bottom of this page.
  - MertsA 4y ago
    It's proof of purchase from an Apple authorized seller, if you bought it from some random owner you're out of luck.
    - zakki 4y ago
      So what happens if I bought a macbook from someone who bought it from apple or apple’s reseller but no original receipt was given to me and then I forgot my password to unlock my laptop? Will I ‘lost’ my laptop forever?
masklinn 4y ago
IIRC the previous Vice article mostly mentioned things like school bulk-selling devices, without doing the legwork of disassociating / resetting devices out of MDM. At no point is the goal to force the destruction of the device.
- widowlark 4y ago
  It may not be a goal, but it's an inveitable result of the design of the policy.
recycledmatt 4y ago
Generally speaking, this works to unlock one off devices (and not mdm) but if you went to them with bulk serials to unlock they would tell you to go away. The scale recyclers operate at this does not work.
Terretta 4y ago
EDIT: I AM NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT THIS. I'm responding to parent saying it's not an actual problem: > So this whole thing seems like a non issue. ... Apple doesn't seem able to "produce a receipt" if you purchased the MacBook with cash or a discontinued credit card in their store. I have a lovely pristine 2019 MacBook Pro 16" that I put firmware password on before crossing international borders, before pandemic. The Ventura update broke boot. I have to boot to recovery partition, but cannot. No idea what "this is obvious" firmware pass I came up with. THIS IS MY FAULT. But a surprisingly expensive fault… I have the original welcome to new Mac on your Apple ID email a couple days after purchase, the Mac is active in my Find My, the Mac is under AppleCare to me which I have. Apple will not unlock it without receipt, which I do not have, and, no longer having an account with that card provider, cannot produce. This 2019 MacBook Pro sells used for $4,689 from Apple today: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/G14X6LL/A/refurbished-16-inch-macbook-pro-apple-m1-max-chip-with-10%E2%80%91core-cpu-and-32%E2%80%91core-gpu-space-gray?fnode=82d89ae7f2b1ea6e0dd0c7a7aa9aa1079e1177ede9798ca1b1e95853edceee5cdd52c30381af5732bdea9f8fd726be725db63fd2d695100880a7b7f8396673930376b4fe8753a174388530cba17ec78b https://www.apple.com/shop/product/G14X6LL/A/refurbished-16-... So for me, it's an issue. // At the same time, this is a reason we provide MacBook Pros to employees: we can take comfort losing one in NYC or Mumbai probably isn't going to compromise company data. This is worth the cost to me personally, and makes me an advocate of Apple's security work.
- michpoch 4y ago
  How are they supposed to produce the receipt? You’re supposed to have it. They gave it to your hand or send it to you over email.
  - afavour 4y ago
    Are you suggesting their system did not record the sale? I agree that OP should have the receipt but I'm quite sure Apple has the data for that sale somewhere.
    - michpoch 4y ago
      I am suggesting that if I bring a laptop and ask them to produce a receipt of its purchase it’d not prove that I purchased the laptop. Anyone could do it and then use that receipt to say they bought it in the first place.
bakugo 4y ago
[flagged]
ipython 4y ago
I was able to get activation lock removed on 2018 MacBook I purchased off eBay this way- I took it into an Apple Store to get its keyboard replaced under warranty and they just asked me to produce the eBay listing with the serial number visible and my shipping address on the order.
phpisthebest 4y ago
Why would be ok to destroy a perfectly working device that is sent to a "recycling center". Reuse is the correct way.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
kevincox 4y ago
Doesn't this defeat the purpose of the activation lock? If I steal a device and sell it on eBay I still make my profit. In the general case if you have a locked device could you just "launder" it through eBay for the price of the commission they take?

fnordpiglet 4y ago

I would note that a legal way to get a laptop is to have it given to you. Not every transaction that transfers ownership entails a receipt from a corporation or even the exchange of money.

xoa 4y ago
[flagged]
- trinsic2 4y ago
  think these discussions can be higher quality if you spend a minute thinking through your hot takes and doing a bit of research. In this case, > > if a device is given to you, why can't you have the person giving it to you (assuming they're the legitimate owner obviously) remove activation lock if they forgot? Because it creates too much friction at the point of transfer. Decryption security should be handled in a way that the decouples user data from the device itself. There will always be theft. The impact that we have on the planet is something we can no longer afford to ignore. This isn't an issue of turning off our brains. We have two problems we have an issue with theft and how security mechanisms that are tied directly to the device strongly prevents reuse and resale.
  - foldr 4y ago
    >Because it creates too much friction at the point of transfer. It takes literally a minute.
  - NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
    >Because it creates too much friction at the point of transfer. The definition of the desired process outcome is "it is demonstrable that the asset was transferred willingly". What is your idea of "less friction at the point of transfer" that achieves that goal? Otherwise, we're back to "this is indistinguishable from theft".
    - widowlark 4y ago
      Who is the authority that determines that "it is demonstrable that the asset was transferred willingly"?
      - fnordpiglet 4y ago
        Receipts from Best Buy
        trinsic2 4y ago
        No, its Apple inserting themselves into the process. The same process apple uses to deny independent computer repair centers access to parts. This isn't about preventing theft. Its about apple controlling how hardware is accessed and used and you can see that be how the treat their customers and repair centers.
        NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
        >No, its Apple inserting themselves into the process. How exactly do you think this works, without a trusted third party?
        trinsic2 4y ago
- LightHugger 4y ago
  These discussions would be higher quality of blatant apple shills didn't write 4 paragraphs defending an obviously flawed policy that is objectively sending good hardware to the landfill.
  - dang 4y ago
    You can't post like this to HN, regardless of how wrong other people or you feel they are. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. Note this one: "Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data."
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  I would say not everyone who has the activation lock enabled knows it exists or how to remove it. My parents, for instance. I fully expect one day they’ll take it to goodwill and it’ll be slag. I’m actually not concerned about this. The security value is higher. I’m just pointing out ownership doesn’t require a receipt.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- jeroenhd 4y ago
  My dad was given an old company laptop a while back. He has since switched jobs. The laptop is locked with an UEFI password but is no longer in anyone's system and I doubt anyone ever stored a real receipt. He has a receipt from the company that gave him the laptop I believe, but the manufacturer won't ever take that as proof of ownership. > In this case, if a device is given to you, why can't you have the person giving it to you (assuming they're the legitimate owner obviously) remove activation lock if they forgot? The device was given away after it was written off. The data related to it has been deleted, there is no receipt any more. I don't have the receipt of the laptop I bought seven years ago, why should I?. > Why not check the device quickly at time of transaction? They could have, but they forgot. Now they can't. You can think of processes and procedures all you want but in real life people lose receipts and forget to check some stuff.
- donmcronald 4y ago
  > In this case, if a device is given to you, why can't you have the person giving it to you (assuming they're the legitimate owner obviously) remove activation lock if they forgot? What happens if the original owner died?
  - pulisse 4y ago
    Apple will transfer control to a legal heir.
    - zakki 4y ago
      Does it also need the receipt?
- LarryMullins 4y ago
  [flagged]

judge2020 4y ago

Can anyone confirm this? The article AppleInsider links[0] doesn't seem to have a way to upload a receipt. And I don't see how this would be possible without Apple verifying that the seller's name matches the name on the Apple ID, since, otherwise, thieves could launder devices via "selling" them via ebay once (for a 12% fee), or telling buyers of stolen devices to submit their receipt to Apple to get around the lock. 0: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201365 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201365

philliphaydon 4y ago
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201441 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201441 Seems to be an option at the bottom of this page.
- MertsA 4y ago
  It's proof of purchase from an Apple authorized seller, if you bought it from some random owner you're out of luck.
  - zakki 4y ago
    So what happens if I bought a macbook from someone who bought it from apple or apple’s reseller but no original receipt was given to me and then I forgot my password to unlock my laptop? Will I ‘lost’ my laptop forever?

masklinn 4y ago

IIRC the previous Vice article mostly mentioned things like school bulk-selling devices, without doing the legwork of disassociating / resetting devices out of MDM. At no point is the goal to force the destruction of the device.

widowlark 4y ago
It may not be a goal, but it's an inveitable result of the design of the policy.

recycledmatt 4y ago

Generally speaking, this works to unlock one off devices (and not mdm) but if you went to them with bulk serials to unlock they would tell you to go away. The scale recyclers operate at this does not work.

Terretta 4y ago

EDIT: I AM NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT THIS. I'm responding to parent saying it's not an actual problem: > So this whole thing seems like a non issue. ... Apple doesn't seem able to "produce a receipt" if you purchased the MacBook with cash or a discontinued credit card in their store. I have a lovely pristine 2019 MacBook Pro 16" that I put firmware password on before crossing international borders, before pandemic. The Ventura update broke boot. I have to boot to recovery partition, but cannot. No idea what "this is obvious" firmware pass I came up with. THIS IS MY FAULT. But a surprisingly expensive fault… I have the original welcome to new Mac on your Apple ID email a couple days after purchase, the Mac is active in my Find My, the Mac is under AppleCare to me which I have. Apple will not unlock it without receipt, which I do not have, and, no longer having an account with that card provider, cannot produce. This 2019 MacBook Pro sells used for $4,689 from Apple today: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/G14X6LL/A/refurbished-16-inch-macbook-pro-apple-m1-max-chip-with-10%E2%80%91core-cpu-and-32%E2%80%91core-gpu-space-gray?fnode=82d89ae7f2b1ea6e0dd0c7a7aa9aa1079e1177ede9798ca1b1e95853edceee5cdd52c30381af5732bdea9f8fd726be725db63fd2d695100880a7b7f8396673930376b4fe8753a174388530cba17ec78b https://www.apple.com/shop/product/G14X6LL/A/refurbished-16-... So for me, it's an issue. // At the same time, this is a reason we provide MacBook Pros to employees: we can take comfort losing one in NYC or Mumbai probably isn't going to compromise company data. This is worth the cost to me personally, and makes me an advocate of Apple's security work.

michpoch 4y ago
How are they supposed to produce the receipt? You’re supposed to have it. They gave it to your hand or send it to you over email.
- afavour 4y ago
  Are you suggesting their system did not record the sale? I agree that OP should have the receipt but I'm quite sure Apple has the data for that sale somewhere.
  - michpoch 4y ago
    I am suggesting that if I bring a laptop and ask them to produce a receipt of its purchase it’d not prove that I purchased the laptop. Anyone could do it and then use that receipt to say they bought it in the first place.

bakugo 4y ago

[flagged]

ipython 4y ago

I was able to get activation lock removed on 2018 MacBook I purchased off eBay this way- I took it into an Apple Store to get its keyboard replaced under warranty and they just asked me to produce the eBay listing with the serial number visible and my shipping address on the order.

phpisthebest 4y ago

Why would be ok to destroy a perfectly working device that is sent to a "recycling center". Reuse is the correct way.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

kevincox 4y ago

Doesn't this defeat the purpose of the activation lock? If I steal a device and sell it on eBay I still make my profit. In the general case if you have a locked device could you just "launder" it through eBay for the price of the commission they take?