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> fall far behind competitors Toyota is one of the most trusted brands across the world. Their cars have extremely high resale value and are generally known to

> fall far behind competitors Toyota is one of the most trusted brands across the world. Their cars have extremely high resale value and are generally known to have long usable lifespans. Hydrogen issue aside, they are (at least currently) not 'far behind' their competitors.

somethoughts 4y ago
My speculative hot take on the reason that Toyota did not jump on the EV bandwagon and stuck with PHEV/Hydrogen is that much of it's operations are financed indirectly via low cost Japanese bank loans encouraged by Japanese government. These loans probably have an underlying perhaps unspoken component which nudges them toward business models which employ Japanese workers. The one thing that EVs require is an EV charger network to exist in the foreign countries that Toyota sells the cars to. Without an existing EV charger network, it becomes a chicken and the egg problem for Toyota since, as a Japanese company, it would likely face a difficult time getting financing to build EV charger networks in foreign countries. Hydrogen fuel theoretically would just be an adaption of the existing petrol gas station infrastructure so the existing players/gas station networks would just need to switch over. Now that ElectrifyAmerica is more "a thing", Toyota can start shifting strategies. VW and Tesla/US car brands could move faster since they were required (VW) or had home court advantage and government support (Tesla/US car brands) to finance the US EV networks. The Korean autos switched earlier as they were probably more hungry and had less to lose on ICE than the Japanese incumbents. There's also the game theoretical play that being the only major petrol based auto producer could lead to pricing power if the transition takes longer than expected.
- jaybeavers 4y ago
  While this is a common refrain, as driver on my 3rd EV “charging network needed” a bad, bad misunderstanding propagated by people who dont drive EVs. I charge my EV at home. I’ve charged my EV on someone elses charge (because i needed it, not because I got a better parking space) maybe twice since i moved to an EV with a 180 mile range. Heck, even with my “first gen” EV with a 63 mile range, I charged at home 95ish percent of the time, and those days are behind us now. $2k to run a 240v external outlet, $500 for a charge station, and you’re set. Apartment dwellers still have issues, but thats simply because govmt/demand hasnt insisted yet.
- Corrado 4y ago
  > The one thing that EVs require is an EV charger network to exist in the foreign countries that Toyota sells the cars to. Without an existing EV charger network, it becomes a chicken and the egg problem for Toyota since, as a Japanese company, it would likely face a difficult time getting financing to build EV charger networks in foreign countries. This could be solved today by using Tesla's Supercharging network, or at least their NACS[0] connector in the North American market. I know that auto makers don't want to rely on each other for _reasons_ but siding with Tesla would give them an instant charging network and completely solve the problem in one go. [0] https://www.tesla.com/blog/opening-north-american-charging-standard https://www.tesla.com/blog/opening-north-american-charging-s...
  - somethoughts 4y ago
    Interesting - yes going forward now that they seem committed to EV. That would be a pretty unique partnership - and require a lot of trust on the part of Toyota.
readonthegoapp 4y ago
I think of a car company- except tesla - to be like a massive container ship or similar Think Titanic I think most car companies underestimated how easy it would be to 'go electric' Let's see how many power players inside Toyota try to drag down the company to try to salvage some dignity of the hydrogen guy
CydeWeys 4y ago
I'm talking about falling far behind competitors in EVs. Which they have. EVs are the cars of the future, and they're flailing around wasting time on hydrogen instead.
- tibu 4y ago
  Hydrogen fueled cars are also electric. They are not that far.
  - CydeWeys 4y ago
    No way. Hydrogen cars are chemical. The trickiest part about an EV is the battery pack, and hydrogen cars don't have 'em. Plus all that investment into hydrogen fuel cells is 100% non-transferrable.
    - _hypx 4y ago
      This is totally incorrect. A fuel cell is a type of electrochemical cell. A fuel cell car has an electric motor just like a conventional EV. We often use the terms “BEV” and “FCEV” to differentiate them.
    - bryanlarsen 4y ago
      Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicles have a large battery, larger than the ones in a Prius.
      - nradov 4y ago
        The Toyota Mirai fuel cell vehicle has a small battery, only 1.2 kWh. https://www.toyota.com/mirai/2023/features/ https://www.toyota.com/mirai/2023/features/
        theshrike79 4y ago
        And story has it the small battery is the reason for the pathetic performance. (9.1 seconds 0-60 speed, which is minivan levels). The fuel cell can't produce electricity fast enough to power the engines for proper acceleration and the battery doesn't have enough buffer.
dymk 4y ago
[flagged]
pokerhobo 4y ago
Their bz4x shows har far behind they are (not to mention wheels that fall off)
ElijahLynn 4y ago
I think Toyota is making a Solid-State Battery too, and putting millions into it. This means it won't ever explode, is what I gathered when I read about it.

somethoughts 4y ago

My speculative hot take on the reason that Toyota did not jump on the EV bandwagon and stuck with PHEV/Hydrogen is that much of it's operations are financed indirectly via low cost Japanese bank loans encouraged by Japanese government. These loans probably have an underlying perhaps unspoken component which nudges them toward business models which employ Japanese workers. The one thing that EVs require is an EV charger network to exist in the foreign countries that Toyota sells the cars to. Without an existing EV charger network, it becomes a chicken and the egg problem for Toyota since, as a Japanese company, it would likely face a difficult time getting financing to build EV charger networks in foreign countries. Hydrogen fuel theoretically would just be an adaption of the existing petrol gas station infrastructure so the existing players/gas station networks would just need to switch over. Now that ElectrifyAmerica is more "a thing", Toyota can start shifting strategies. VW and Tesla/US car brands could move faster since they were required (VW) or had home court advantage and government support (Tesla/US car brands) to finance the US EV networks. The Korean autos switched earlier as they were probably more hungry and had less to lose on ICE than the Japanese incumbents. There's also the game theoretical play that being the only major petrol based auto producer could lead to pricing power if the transition takes longer than expected.

jaybeavers 4y ago
While this is a common refrain, as driver on my 3rd EV “charging network needed” a bad, bad misunderstanding propagated by people who dont drive EVs. I charge my EV at home. I’ve charged my EV on someone elses charge (because i needed it, not because I got a better parking space) maybe twice since i moved to an EV with a 180 mile range. Heck, even with my “first gen” EV with a 63 mile range, I charged at home 95ish percent of the time, and those days are behind us now. $2k to run a 240v external outlet, $500 for a charge station, and you’re set. Apartment dwellers still have issues, but thats simply because govmt/demand hasnt insisted yet.
Corrado 4y ago
> The one thing that EVs require is an EV charger network to exist in the foreign countries that Toyota sells the cars to. Without an existing EV charger network, it becomes a chicken and the egg problem for Toyota since, as a Japanese company, it would likely face a difficult time getting financing to build EV charger networks in foreign countries. This could be solved today by using Tesla's Supercharging network, or at least their NACS[0] connector in the North American market. I know that auto makers don't want to rely on each other for _reasons_ but siding with Tesla would give them an instant charging network and completely solve the problem in one go. [0] https://www.tesla.com/blog/opening-north-american-charging-standard https://www.tesla.com/blog/opening-north-american-charging-s...
- somethoughts 4y ago
  Interesting - yes going forward now that they seem committed to EV. That would be a pretty unique partnership - and require a lot of trust on the part of Toyota.

readonthegoapp 4y ago

I think of a car company- except tesla - to be like a massive container ship or similar Think Titanic I think most car companies underestimated how easy it would be to 'go electric' Let's see how many power players inside Toyota try to drag down the company to try to salvage some dignity of the hydrogen guy

CydeWeys 4y ago

I'm talking about falling far behind competitors in EVs. Which they have. EVs are the cars of the future, and they're flailing around wasting time on hydrogen instead.

tibu 4y ago
Hydrogen fueled cars are also electric. They are not that far.
- CydeWeys 4y ago
  No way. Hydrogen cars are chemical. The trickiest part about an EV is the battery pack, and hydrogen cars don't have 'em. Plus all that investment into hydrogen fuel cells is 100% non-transferrable.
  - _hypx 4y ago
    This is totally incorrect. A fuel cell is a type of electrochemical cell. A fuel cell car has an electric motor just like a conventional EV. We often use the terms “BEV” and “FCEV” to differentiate them.
  - bryanlarsen 4y ago
    Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicles have a large battery, larger than the ones in a Prius.
    - nradov 4y ago
      The Toyota Mirai fuel cell vehicle has a small battery, only 1.2 kWh. https://www.toyota.com/mirai/2023/features/ https://www.toyota.com/mirai/2023/features/
      - theshrike79 4y ago
        And story has it the small battery is the reason for the pathetic performance. (9.1 seconds 0-60 speed, which is minivan levels). The fuel cell can't produce electricity fast enough to power the engines for proper acceleration and the battery doesn't have enough buffer.

dymk 4y ago

[flagged]

pokerhobo 4y ago

Their bz4x shows har far behind they are (not to mention wheels that fall off)

ElijahLynn 4y ago

I think Toyota is making a Solid-State Battery too, and putting millions into it. This means it won't ever explode, is what I gathered when I read about it.