11 ms·

Stanford student may need to ‘acknowledge harm’ for reading ‘Mein Kampf’

83 points by leephillips 4y ago

8f2ab37a-ed6c 4y ago
I'm highly sympathetic to the cause of FIRE and Greg Lukianoff, in part because of his book with Jonathan Haidt, but I'd be pretty disappointed if they started to use poorly reported hate-bait stories as a way to support their mission and generate outrage. I think it's possible to hold oneself to a higher standard and not play the outrage game by falling for hoaxes. At least in my eyes they would get much more credibility. But perhaps that's just not the world we live in anymore, and if you don't generate outrage hateclicks, you might as well give up. We can do better than this whole got-em-advocacy regardless of what side you care for.
gptgpp 4y ago
I hate this type of story, mostly because nobody has any clue as to what is actually happening, leading people to draw a divisive conclusion about either "cancel culture being out of control" or "soft liberal snowflakes acting like fascists." It's like it's tailor made to stoke these stupid culture wars. The linked article at "thefire.org" has a statement by the Rabbi about the incident which makes it seem like they're condemning reading Mein Kampf. But then according to this article: https://www.thecollegefix.com/stanford-student-reported-for-reading-hitlers-mein-kampf/ https://www.thecollegefix.com/stanford-student-reported-for-... That same Rabbi clarifies that they don't want anything banned and people should obviously be allowed to read whatever books they like. End of controversy, lol. OR IS IT? Because then we have a tweet of a post by an anonymous source (not exactly a primary source lol) on another platform (fizz?) claiming the photo of the girls reading the book was part of a costume, and the controversy comes from that -- not merely reading a book. https://twitter.com/barrydeutsch/status/1618697230382399488 https://twitter.com/barrydeutsch/status/1618697230382399488 It's just a quagmire of stupid and people jumping to conclusions. We can't see the photo, or even a good description of what it is, and nobody seems to want to ban books like other people are claiming. OBVIOUSLY reading fascist and overall terrible publications "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", "Mein Kampf", etc. are important for understanding how the holocaust occurred and propaganda in general. I even read them as a curious teenager and came away with the impression that Hitler was a boring, weird, hateful little man. They don't just radicalize people on their own. We don't know what is happening here. If it ends up being a snapchat with a super offensive title like "learning how to exterminate the jews with my girlies!" then mystery solved. And if not, then it should get followed and picked up by the ACLU and other civil liberties orgs. But for fucks sake lets not start picking culture war sides before we've even seen the photo or a complete description of it lol.
prvc 4y ago
Why was this submission flagged?
the_third_wave 4y ago
Tens of millions, possibly more than a hundred million actually were harmed - as in "they lost their lives" - under influence of the writings of Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin and Mao, writings dear to the hearts of those who organise these struggle sessions against those who refuse to stay in line. Let all of this new Red Guard bend down in acknowledgement of the error of their ideology and their ways, let them make penance for their misdeeds and let them ever after be known for what they did, just like those who followed Adolf Hitler were marked: as traitors to humanity. Yes, new Red Guard, that is what is being formed and with the same means as Mao formed his. He also used students for his purposes, bending them to his will by claiming they would be the guards of the new era, battling against "the four olds" of old ideas, old culture, old customs and old habits. Historian Frank Dikotter accurately summarises Mao’s logic in instigating the Red Guard and their activities: Mao went straight to the students, seeing in the young his most reliable allies. They were impressionable, easy to manipulate and eager to fight. Most of all, they craved a more active role (Dikotter, 2016). Students in the modern "west" are just as impressionable and easy to manipulate as they were in Mao's China, maybe even more so. Just like so many pampered young people who have lived lives of luxury and abundance they crave for some meaning, to find a role for themselves in society where they get to stand out from the crowd. Once that role was to be found in climbing up the social ladder, in excelling in some field of study or in religion. Then a few things happened which lessened the value of those former goals. Some people just kept on climbing that social ladder until they lost sight of the rest of society from their heights, easily making 500 times as much money as the average person or more. They mistakenly took their financial prowess as a sign of wisdom. At the same time the value of religion, once a steadfast rock of society, dwindled through both the ascent of the age of reason but also because of the many scandals in which the large organised religions of the west were involved. Not that those religions are any worse than the other large religions - Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism among others - but the ascent of the age of reason and the freedom of expression and that of the press made it possible for these scandals to see the light of day. With that, religion lost its moral high ground. With the excesses of the capitalist economies which gave rise to the "1%" and now the "0.1%" of billionaires the system which floats all ships also lost some of its appeal, especially now that the cold war was "won" and the "evil empire" in the east was "vanquished". What, then, should a pampered student looking for a role as a shining knight in armour - whether that be a Saint George or Jeanne d'Arc - look for as a role model. What, indeed, better than an ideology which points out all the failings of current society while forgetting that those failings are the local lows in a plain of welfare which is far higher than it has ever been? An ideology which instead points at a mystical peak to be found somewhere at the end of the rainbow, never seen but prophesied by many? Mao clearly understood this and so does the current crop of ideologues. Get them young, bring them in and bind them.
nhchris 4y ago
> asking them to “acknowledge” what they’ve done and “change” their ways through restorative justice-type exercises undoubtedly chills student speech. This precedes speech. This is the right to read. Stallman's essay [1] needs an update. But no books were burned so we're still the good guys, don't worry. [1] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
- leephillips 4y ago
  The dizzying pace with which so many of our institutions—from the ACLU to basically all our our elite universities—have not only abandoned but energetically oppose their former principles, over just the past five years, is horrifying.
  - superorganism 4y ago
    Can you give a concrete example?
    - leephillips 4y ago
      If you don’t regard the article up top as a concrete example, I’m not sure I can convince you.
      - nextaccountic 4y ago
        Is this article related to the ACLU? ctrl+f aclu doesn't return anything
        leephillips 4y ago
        I was replying to a request to supply an example of “so many [of] our institutions—from the ACLU to basically all of our elite universities”.
      - greedo 4y ago
        I don't see any mention of the ACLU in the article about Stanford...
jleyank 4y ago
Can have fun with this particularly if it’s a 20th century European history course assignment. If books cause harm, then pretty much any religious text will be (very) offensive to another as it’s heretical etc. psychology texts probably really offend Scientologists, and I’m sure you can come up with other combinations without too much effort. Das Kapital, any civil war history covering the western campaign and it’s generals, anything covering civil rights, the Vietnam period…
- sacnoradhq 4y ago
  I can't recall the quote, but "A book worth burning is a book worth reading." No one has to support or agree with ideas to delve into them, find their flaws and strengths (reality and people are mixtures of gray), and consider other perspectives. To avoid topics is one path to ignorance and decline. - Das Kapital - Understanding Socialism - The God Delusion - Bible - Quran - Mein Kampf - Atlas Shrugged - (numerous critiques of objectivism and its political-economic brand: libertarianism) - Critique of Pure Reason - The Social Contract - Industrial Society and Its Future - A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies - The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire - Guns, Germs, and Steel == And some fiction === - Howl - Tropic of Cancer - Four Past Midnight (yes, Stephen King) - Maus
- 8f2ab37a-ed6c 4y ago
  Indeed, but, we all know that in those circles nobody cares about Scientologists' feelings getting hurt. There's a well-established hierarchy of sacred victim groups that have to be protected from "harm" (for an arbitrary and nebulous definition of the word) at all costs, and whose defense is one of the most pious expressions of in-group belonging. Scientologists, Christians, members of political groups on the other side of the spectrum, and many others are not recipients of such benefits. Any form of affiliation with them, including consuming their respective literature, would likely get you excommunicated unless you do sufficient public penance once caught.
  - shanebellone 4y ago
    {Scientologists, Christians, members of political groups} No one likes ugly sets.
shams93 4y ago
How are we supposed to learn from history if reading historical documents becomes a crime?
- rainbowzootsuit 4y ago
  [flagged]
- hulitu 4y ago
  You are not suppose to learn.
- commandlinefan 4y ago
  Your politicians will summarize why those things were bad. No need for you to confirm independently, you can trust them.
steponlego 4y ago
[dead]
sparc24 4y ago
"Those who do not study history are condemned to repeat it."
mindcrime 4y ago
Wow. Just wow. As far as I'm concerned, the student in question should have exactly one response to the Stanford administration. "Fuck You."
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > the student in question should have exactly one response to the Stanford administration I would have assumed everyone would have rushed to check out copies of books this PIH deems harmful. More concretely, PIH is described as a "reporting system." Are Stanford's librarians violating their confidentiality duty? (EDIT: Never mind, it looks like a public-reporting system [1] to the let the campus rabbi get upset at what students are reading.) [1] https://stanforddaily.com/2023/01/22/protected-identity-harm-report-filed-as-screenshot-of-student-reading-mein-kampf-circulates/ https://stanforddaily.com/2023/01/22/protected-identity-harm...
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    This is apparently the website for their "Protected Identity Harm Reporting System," including a form to submit reports: https://protectedidentityharm.stanford.edu/ https://protectedidentityharm.stanford.edu/ That have a dashboard where they apparently made some of the reports public (but it doesn't look like it's automatically updated). This was was interesting: https://protectedidentityharm.stanford.edu/news/cords-potentially-representing-nooses-found-112921 https://protectedidentityharm.stanford.edu/news/cords-potent...: > What happened: > On the morning of Monday, November 29 a student reported seeing two long cords that may represent nooses in a tree near the intersection of Campus Drive and Junipero Serra Boulevard, along the Lake Lagunita walking trail. What is being done: > Updated as of 5/10/22 > Based on statements from staff and students, and photos showing the scene at Lake Lagunita, it was determined the cords in the tree had been in that location for several years prior to it being reported to DPS. Photos showed the cords in the tree dating back to at least June 2017. Separately, a former student reached out reporting their recollection that a rope swing used to be in that location. DPS closed the case on December 6, 2021, and the incident was not classified as a crime. > Updated as of 11/30/21 > A student reported the cords to the Dean of Students Office early this morning. The Office immediately contacted the Stanford University Department of Public Safety (DPS), which promptly investigated the incident with a campus arborist. Based on weathering and tree growth around the cords, it seems that the cords had been attached to the tree for approximately 18-24 months. We cannot be certain whether the ropes were deliberately fashioned in the shape of nooses, or were part of an abandoned swing or rope ladder. > The Dean of Students Office has connected with the student via telephone and email and will continue offering support.
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a13o 4y ago
I think Stanford should be looking into who took the photo and started spreading it. They're the one in need of administrative intervention.
- Brybry 4y ago
  From the Stanford Daily article[1] Stanford appears to be in contact with both individuals. [1] https://stanforddaily.com/2023/01/22/protected-identity-harm-report-filed-as-screenshot-of-student-reading-mein-kampf-circulates/ https://stanforddaily.com/2023/01/22/protected-identity-harm...
norwalkbear 4y ago
What a frightening precedent. The universities have been ideological captured
mxkopy 4y ago
Devils advocate - it may be that Stanford is punishing the act of taking a picture and distributing it, rather than reading the book. I was thinking of reading Mein Kampf (I've never read it), but I'd never think to pose in front of it.
- sacnoradhq 4y ago
  The Stanford Daily blurb is ambiguous as to whether 1. the student posed and posted it themselves, or 2. a bystander took a picture and sought to embarrass them for committing the crime of curiosity. It sounds like 2. which would be concerning to academic freedom, but if it's 1. then maybe they were young, insensitive, and made a mistake. I doubt Stanford is in the business of accepting Neo-Nazis as proof of diversity. Also, the politically powerful as many Stanford students' families are, they tend to be concerned about "doing everything perfectly" to not be screamed at, lose respect of, or be cut off from their friends or family for doing something to embarrass them.
- kube-system 4y ago
  Yeah, I think there's not enough information to make a judgement call over the internet on this one. What specifically was in this photo, and who was it shared with or sent to? Contextual details are everything in these kinds of situations.
- mywittyname 4y ago
  That makes sense actually. Given the issue is not that the student read the book (as noted, it's required reading in certain classes). The complaint appears to be, a student was photographed reading the book, and the nature of the photograph caused a group of people to feel adversely targeted by it. The article omits the photograph, or even any real description of it, so we can't exactly judge for ourselves. The PIH rules seems to be for addressing, "I'm not touching you"-style harassment. So without seeing the photograph, or hearing the complaints against it, I feel like the article is very one-sided. Also, Foundation for Individual Rights in Education claims to be non-partisan, but apparently sponsors conservative action groups on college and high school campuses. Including one run by Charlie Kirk.
jstarfish 4y ago
Heh, I've seen this same mechanic abused twice recently-- once in a workplace violence claim, and another in a sextortion case. Rather than make a false accusation against someone (or any accusation, really) you vaguely allude to how they did something that "triggers a trauma response from [your] past" and gaslight/coerce/shame them into admitting guilt ("acknowledging harm"). That settles all dispute over the integrity of the allegation itself and then you can shake them down or litigate at will. When did it become 1497 again? "You're a sinner! But we don't actually know that you did anything, so you need to confess your sins-- and repent!"
- slackfan 4y ago
  About 20 years ago, but the people who said it got shouted down and gaslit into accepting blame for being violent
  - red-iron-pine 4y ago
    This is also why 'gaslight' became a term in popular use.
mmcgaha 4y ago
There has to be more to this story than what is reported here. At least I hope so.
prvc 4y ago
When this attitude becomes prevalent among those who have access to widespread online surveillance information, it could have a chilling effect on all of our reading habits and hence our ability to learn about the world. Oh, wait.
abakker 4y ago
Just a reminder that a .org does not mean "trustworthy". https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Foundation_for_Individual_Rights_in_Education https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Foundation_for_Individ... In this case, the discussion and the tenor of the conversation is almost certainly cherry picked to serve a particular agenda. On its face, the actions by Stanford in this article seem...not good. But I also suspect that this is making a mountain out of a molehill for political gain.
- minsc_and_boo 4y ago
  FIRE is a known sponsor of Turning Point USA. This is absolutely a molehill mountain propped up to generate outrage, which you can see manifest in these comments.
- wilg 4y ago
  But now you’ve posted a .org! Is that one trustworthy?
  - abakker 4y ago
    lol, you are of course correct. It seems they are owned by the Center for Media and Democracy, which looks pretty neutral, but it is of course hard to tell.
- mc32 4y ago
  How is keeping track of what people read a "molehill"? Do we now presume libraries will not keep your reading habits and history private?
  - kube-system 4y ago
    This article is about a picture posted on a snapchat story.
- sudobash1 4y ago
  Some other sources: There is more information in the a "Stanford Daily" article: https://stanforddaily.com/2023/01/22/protected-identity-harm-report-filed-as-screenshot-of-student-reading-mein-kampf-circulates/ https://stanforddaily.com/2023/01/22/protected-identity-harm... And an opinion article in the "Standford Review": https://stanfordreview.org/nazis-banned-books-we-shouldnt/ https://stanfordreview.org/nazis-banned-books-we-shouldnt/
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wilg 4y ago
Some rando on Twitter reposting an screenshot of an anonymous person claims the following: https://twitter.com/barrydeutsch/status/1618697230382399488 https://twitter.com/barrydeutsch/status/1618697230382399488 > This article hasn't framed the incident accurately at all. the incident was two theta girls posted a Snapchat story of them reading Mein Kampf as part of their costumes at a pregame and laughing, clearly in a joking way, not at all in a historical way. The joke was in poor taste which is why it got such a negative response (as it should). Obviously people can read Mein Kampf, but that's not what's contested here. I imagine this story is going to get stupider.
- meany 4y ago
  Stanford review story link. That confirms OP. https://stanforddaily.com/2023/01/22/protected-identity-harm-report-filed-as-screenshot-of-student-reading-mein-kampf-circulates/ https://stanforddaily.com/2023/01/22/protected-identity-harm...
- prvc 4y ago
  > laughing, clearly in a joking way, not at all in a historical way What should the penalty be for laughing in a non-"historical way"?
  - kube-system 4y ago
    From our government? Nothing. From a private organization? Whatever their rules are, as long as they are within the law. It is exceedingly common for private organizations to have standards of behavior that are much more than required by law.
  - dwaltrip 4y ago
    The book is a symbol for the immense suffering inflicted by the Nazi regime. I can sympathize with not wanting students brazenly laughing at that in front of a large audience. It’s not a good look - they aren’t representing the university well. That being said, I’m not sure what general rule I would want to set if I was in charge of this policy at a university. It’s certainly a thorny issue.
sequoia 4y ago
In cases like these, details and context are important, and unfortunately they are very scant here. Specifically, one may draw a distinction between someone reading Mein Kampf and posting a selfie on social media with the book (it's not clear whether a selfie was involved but social media posting was). There's no issue with reading mein kampf, but if it's being used as a prop on social media for the purpose of Jew-baiting, I can see how someone would take issue with this and/or consider it an offence against a school conduct guide. To take another example, I don't think there's any issue with someone learning or teaching how to tie a knot used to make a noose. But if someone throws a noose over a tree, poses in front of it & posts the picture to social media, that's a very different action. In the latter case, it would be dishonest to say they were censured "for tying knots," they would be censured for race baiting and making implied threats.
- meany 4y ago
  Stanford Review link supporting OP https://stanforddaily.com/2023/01/22/protected-identity-harm-report-filed-as-screenshot-of-student-reading-mein-kampf-circulates/ https://stanforddaily.com/2023/01/22/protected-identity-harm...
- mc32 4y ago
  I can imagine with things like this there come a day when sitting in a library someone spies upon another reader reading something they claim is triggering them. Let's say religious vs non religious people or ultra conservative vs ultra progressives. Or any high voltage topic with extreme opinions.
  - sequoia 4y ago
    One can imagine many things, but that's not what happened here. Your comment is confirmation (to me) that FIRE's headline & article are misleading. The article is making you think of someone "minding their own business" reading a book and getting in trouble. In fact, we don't know whether any reading occurred. Someone's in trouble for (seeming too, details are unclear) using Mein Kampf as a prop in a social media post. I'm disappointed in FIRE for going the misleading clickbait route here, I generally support their work.
automatoney 4y ago
Here is a more journalistic piece on the incident: https://www.thecollegefix.com/stanford-student-reported-for-reading-hitlers-mein-kampf/ https://www.thecollegefix.com/stanford-student-reported-for-... and the school's newspaper's reporting on it (which is linked in both articles) https://stanforddaily.com/2023/01/22/protected-identity-harm-report-filed-as-screenshot-of-student-reading-mein-kampf-circulates/ https://stanforddaily.com/2023/01/22/protected-identity-harm...
Animats 4y ago
Stanford has campus rabbis now? Yes, they do. Not just a branch of Hillel or Chabad. For a secular university, Stanford seems to have acquired quite a religious establishment.[1] They have all the major brands represented.[2] There's even a atheist chaplain.[3] This looks less like theology and more like Stanford's administrative bloat. As for Mein Kampf,[4] it's useful to read it again today, along with a biography of Putin to understand where the Ukraine mess came from. There's an "our destiny is to rule the world" mindset. It's back. [1] https://orsl.stanford.edu/ https://orsl.stanford.edu/ [2] https://med.stanford.edu/hhp/about/people/professors-and-lecturers.html https://med.stanford.edu/hhp/about/people/professors-and-lec... [3] https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Stanford-gets-a-chaplain-for-atheists-4139991.php https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Stanford-gets-a-chaplain... [4] https://archive.org/details/mein-kampf-by-adolf-hitler-ralph-manheim-translation/page/2/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/mein-kampf-by-adolf-hitler-ralph...
mellosouls 4y ago
This could serve as a literature/news trivia style question for any pub quiz compilers out there: In which publication did an Office of Religious and Spiritual Affairs investigate a Protected Identity Harm Report after somebody read a book? A) The Handmaid's Tale B) 1984 C) Stanford Daily

83 points by leephillips 4y ago

I'm highly sympathetic to the cause of FIRE and Greg Lukianoff, in part because of his book with Jonathan Haidt, but I'd be pretty disappointed if they started to use poorly reported hate-bait stories as a way to support their mission and generate outrage. I think it's possible to hold oneself to a higher standard and not play the outrage game by falling for hoaxes. At least in my eyes they would get much more credibility. But perhaps that's just not the world we live in anymore, and if you don't generate outrage hateclicks, you might as well give up. We can do better than this whole got-em-advocacy regardless of what side you care for.

gptgpp 4y ago

I hate this type of story, mostly because nobody has any clue as to what is actually happening, leading people to draw a divisive conclusion about either "cancel culture being out of control" or "soft liberal snowflakes acting like fascists." It's like it's tailor made to stoke these stupid culture wars. The linked article at "thefire.org" has a statement by the Rabbi about the incident which makes it seem like they're condemning reading Mein Kampf. But then according to this article: https://www.thecollegefix.com/stanford-student-reported-for-reading-hitlers-mein-kampf/ https://www.thecollegefix.com/stanford-student-reported-for-... That same Rabbi clarifies that they don't want anything banned and people should obviously be allowed to read whatever books they like. End of controversy, lol. OR IS IT? Because then we have a tweet of a post by an anonymous source (not exactly a primary source lol) on another platform (fizz?) claiming the photo of the girls reading the book was part of a costume, and the controversy comes from that -- not merely reading a book. https://twitter.com/barrydeutsch/status/1618697230382399488 https://twitter.com/barrydeutsch/status/1618697230382399488 It's just a quagmire of stupid and people jumping to conclusions. We can't see the photo, or even a good description of what it is, and nobody seems to want to ban books like other people are claiming. OBVIOUSLY reading fascist and overall terrible publications "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", "Mein Kampf", etc. are important for understanding how the holocaust occurred and propaganda in general. I even read them as a curious teenager and came away with the impression that Hitler was a boring, weird, hateful little man. They don't just radicalize people on their own. We don't know what is happening here. If it ends up being a snapchat with a super offensive title like "learning how to exterminate the jews with my girlies!" then mystery solved. And if not, then it should get followed and picked up by the ACLU and other civil liberties orgs. But for fucks sake lets not start picking culture war sides before we've even seen the photo or a complete description of it lol.

prvc 4y ago

Why was this submission flagged?

the_third_wave 4y ago

Tens of millions, possibly more than a hundred million actually were harmed - as in "they lost their lives" - under influence of the writings of Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin and Mao, writings dear to the hearts of those who organise these struggle sessions against those who refuse to stay in line. Let all of this new Red Guard bend down in acknowledgement of the error of their ideology and their ways, let them make penance for their misdeeds and let them ever after be known for what they did, just like those who followed Adolf Hitler were marked: as traitors to humanity. Yes, new Red Guard, that is what is being formed and with the same means as Mao formed his. He also used students for his purposes, bending them to his will by claiming they would be the guards of the new era, battling against "the four olds" of old ideas, old culture, old customs and old habits. Historian Frank Dikotter accurately summarises Mao’s logic in instigating the Red Guard and their activities: Mao went straight to the students, seeing in the young his most reliable allies. They were impressionable, easy to manipulate and eager to fight. Most of all, they craved a more active role (Dikotter, 2016). Students in the modern "west" are just as impressionable and easy to manipulate as they were in Mao's China, maybe even more so. Just like so many pampered young people who have lived lives of luxury and abundance they crave for some meaning, to find a role for themselves in society where they get to stand out from the crowd. Once that role was to be found in climbing up the social ladder, in excelling in some field of study or in religion. Then a few things happened which lessened the value of those former goals. Some people just kept on climbing that social ladder until they lost sight of the rest of society from their heights, easily making 500 times as much money as the average person or more. They mistakenly took their financial prowess as a sign of wisdom. At the same time the value of religion, once a steadfast rock of society, dwindled through both the ascent of the age of reason but also because of the many scandals in which the large organised religions of the west were involved. Not that those religions are any worse than the other large religions - Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism among others - but the ascent of the age of reason and the freedom of expression and that of the press made it possible for these scandals to see the light of day. With that, religion lost its moral high ground. With the excesses of the capitalist economies which gave rise to the "1%" and now the "0.1%" of billionaires the system which floats all ships also lost some of its appeal, especially now that the cold war was "won" and the "evil empire" in the east was "vanquished". What, then, should a pampered student looking for a role as a shining knight in armour - whether that be a Saint George or Jeanne d'Arc - look for as a role model. What, indeed, better than an ideology which points out all the failings of current society while forgetting that those failings are the local lows in a plain of welfare which is far higher than it has ever been? An ideology which instead points at a mystical peak to be found somewhere at the end of the rainbow, never seen but prophesied by many? Mao clearly understood this and so does the current crop of ideologues. Get them young, bring them in and bind them.

nhchris 4y ago

> asking them to “acknowledge” what they’ve done and “change” their ways through restorative justice-type exercises undoubtedly chills student speech. This precedes speech. This is the right to read. Stallman's essay [1] needs an update. But no books were burned so we're still the good guys, don't worry. [1] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html

leephillips 4y ago
The dizzying pace with which so many of our institutions—from the ACLU to basically all our our elite universities—have not only abandoned but energetically oppose their former principles, over just the past five years, is horrifying.
- superorganism 4y ago
  Can you give a concrete example?
  - leephillips 4y ago
    If you don’t regard the article up top as a concrete example, I’m not sure I can convince you.
    - nextaccountic 4y ago
      Is this article related to the ACLU? ctrl+f aclu doesn't return anything
      - leephillips 4y ago
        I was replying to a request to supply an example of “so many [of] our institutions—from the ACLU to basically all of our elite universities”.
    - greedo 4y ago
      I don't see any mention of the ACLU in the article about Stanford...

jleyank 4y ago

Can have fun with this particularly if it’s a 20th century European history course assignment. If books cause harm, then pretty much any religious text will be (very) offensive to another as it’s heretical etc. psychology texts probably really offend Scientologists, and I’m sure you can come up with other combinations without too much effort. Das Kapital, any civil war history covering the western campaign and it’s generals, anything covering civil rights, the Vietnam period…

sacnoradhq 4y ago
I can't recall the quote, but "A book worth burning is a book worth reading." No one has to support or agree with ideas to delve into them, find their flaws and strengths (reality and people are mixtures of gray), and consider other perspectives. To avoid topics is one path to ignorance and decline. - Das Kapital - Understanding Socialism - The God Delusion - Bible - Quran - Mein Kampf - Atlas Shrugged - (numerous critiques of objectivism and its political-economic brand: libertarianism) - Critique of Pure Reason - The Social Contract - Industrial Society and Its Future - A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies - The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire - Guns, Germs, and Steel == And some fiction === - Howl - Tropic of Cancer - Four Past Midnight (yes, Stephen King) - Maus
8f2ab37a-ed6c 4y ago
Indeed, but, we all know that in those circles nobody cares about Scientologists' feelings getting hurt. There's a well-established hierarchy of sacred victim groups that have to be protected from "harm" (for an arbitrary and nebulous definition of the word) at all costs, and whose defense is one of the most pious expressions of in-group belonging. Scientologists, Christians, members of political groups on the other side of the spectrum, and many others are not recipients of such benefits. Any form of affiliation with them, including consuming their respective literature, would likely get you excommunicated unless you do sufficient public penance once caught.
- shanebellone 4y ago
  {Scientologists, Christians, members of political groups} No one likes ugly sets.

shams93 4y ago

How are we supposed to learn from history if reading historical documents becomes a crime?

rainbowzootsuit 4y ago
[flagged]
hulitu 4y ago
You are not suppose to learn.
commandlinefan 4y ago
Your politicians will summarize why those things were bad. No need for you to confirm independently, you can trust them.

steponlego 4y ago

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sparc24 4y ago

"Those who do not study history are condemned to repeat it."

mindcrime 4y ago

Wow. Just wow. As far as I'm concerned, the student in question should have exactly one response to the Stanford administration. "Fuck You."

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> the student in question should have exactly one response to the Stanford administration I would have assumed everyone would have rushed to check out copies of books this PIH deems harmful. More concretely, PIH is described as a "reporting system." Are Stanford's librarians violating their confidentiality duty? (EDIT: Never mind, it looks like a public-reporting system [1] to the let the campus rabbi get upset at what students are reading.) [1] https://stanforddaily.com/2023/01/22/protected-identity-harm-report-filed-as-screenshot-of-student-reading-mein-kampf-circulates/ https://stanforddaily.com/2023/01/22/protected-identity-harm...
- tablespoon 4y ago
  This is apparently the website for their "Protected Identity Harm Reporting System," including a form to submit reports: https://protectedidentityharm.stanford.edu/ https://protectedidentityharm.stanford.edu/ That have a dashboard where they apparently made some of the reports public (but it doesn't look like it's automatically updated). This was was interesting: https://protectedidentityharm.stanford.edu/news/cords-potentially-representing-nooses-found-112921 https://protectedidentityharm.stanford.edu/news/cords-potent...: > What happened: > On the morning of Monday, November 29 a student reported seeing two long cords that may represent nooses in a tree near the intersection of Campus Drive and Junipero Serra Boulevard, along the Lake Lagunita walking trail. What is being done: > Updated as of 5/10/22 > Based on statements from staff and students, and photos showing the scene at Lake Lagunita, it was determined the cords in the tree had been in that location for several years prior to it being reported to DPS. Photos showed the cords in the tree dating back to at least June 2017. Separately, a former student reached out reporting their recollection that a rope swing used to be in that location. DPS closed the case on December 6, 2021, and the incident was not classified as a crime. > Updated as of 11/30/21 > A student reported the cords to the Dean of Students Office early this morning. The Office immediately contacted the Stanford University Department of Public Safety (DPS), which promptly investigated the incident with a campus arborist. Based on weathering and tree growth around the cords, it seems that the cords had been attached to the tree for approximately 18-24 months. We cannot be certain whether the ropes were deliberately fashioned in the shape of nooses, or were part of an abandoned swing or rope ladder. > The Dean of Students Office has connected with the student via telephone and email and will continue offering support.

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a13o 4y ago

I think Stanford should be looking into who took the photo and started spreading it. They're the one in need of administrative intervention.

Brybry 4y ago
From the Stanford Daily article[1] Stanford appears to be in contact with both individuals. [1] https://stanforddaily.com/2023/01/22/protected-identity-harm-report-filed-as-screenshot-of-student-reading-mein-kampf-circulates/ https://stanforddaily.com/2023/01/22/protected-identity-harm...

norwalkbear 4y ago

What a frightening precedent. The universities have been ideological captured

mxkopy 4y ago

Devils advocate - it may be that Stanford is punishing the act of taking a picture and distributing it, rather than reading the book. I was thinking of reading Mein Kampf (I've never read it), but I'd never think to pose in front of it.

sacnoradhq 4y ago
The Stanford Daily blurb is ambiguous as to whether 1. the student posed and posted it themselves, or 2. a bystander took a picture and sought to embarrass them for committing the crime of curiosity. It sounds like 2. which would be concerning to academic freedom, but if it's 1. then maybe they were young, insensitive, and made a mistake. I doubt Stanford is in the business of accepting Neo-Nazis as proof of diversity. Also, the politically powerful as many Stanford students' families are, they tend to be concerned about "doing everything perfectly" to not be screamed at, lose respect of, or be cut off from their friends or family for doing something to embarrass them.
kube-system 4y ago
Yeah, I think there's not enough information to make a judgement call over the internet on this one. What specifically was in this photo, and who was it shared with or sent to? Contextual details are everything in these kinds of situations.
mywittyname 4y ago
That makes sense actually. Given the issue is not that the student read the book (as noted, it's required reading in certain classes). The complaint appears to be, a student was photographed reading the book, and the nature of the photograph caused a group of people to feel adversely targeted by it. The article omits the photograph, or even any real description of it, so we can't exactly judge for ourselves. The PIH rules seems to be for addressing, "I'm not touching you"-style harassment. So without seeing the photograph, or hearing the complaints against it, I feel like the article is very one-sided. Also, Foundation for Individual Rights in Education claims to be non-partisan, but apparently sponsors conservative action groups on college and high school campuses. Including one run by Charlie Kirk.

jstarfish 4y ago

Heh, I've seen this same mechanic abused twice recently-- once in a workplace violence claim, and another in a sextortion case. Rather than make a false accusation against someone (or any accusation, really) you vaguely allude to how they did something that "triggers a trauma response from [your] past" and gaslight/coerce/shame them into admitting guilt ("acknowledging harm"). That settles all dispute over the integrity of the allegation itself and then you can shake them down or litigate at will. When did it become 1497 again? "You're a sinner! But we don't actually know that you did anything, so you need to confess your sins-- and repent!"

slackfan 4y ago
About 20 years ago, but the people who said it got shouted down and gaslit into accepting blame for being violent
- red-iron-pine 4y ago
  This is also why 'gaslight' became a term in popular use.

mmcgaha 4y ago

There has to be more to this story than what is reported here. At least I hope so.

prvc 4y ago

When this attitude becomes prevalent among those who have access to widespread online surveillance information, it could have a chilling effect on all of our reading habits and hence our ability to learn about the world. Oh, wait.

abakker 4y ago

Just a reminder that a .org does not mean "trustworthy". https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Foundation_for_Individual_Rights_in_Education https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Foundation_for_Individ... In this case, the discussion and the tenor of the conversation is almost certainly cherry picked to serve a particular agenda. On its face, the actions by Stanford in this article seem...not good. But I also suspect that this is making a mountain out of a molehill for political gain.

minsc_and_boo 4y ago
FIRE is a known sponsor of Turning Point USA. This is absolutely a molehill mountain propped up to generate outrage, which you can see manifest in these comments.
wilg 4y ago
But now you’ve posted a .org! Is that one trustworthy?
- abakker 4y ago
  lol, you are of course correct. It seems they are owned by the Center for Media and Democracy, which looks pretty neutral, but it is of course hard to tell.
mc32 4y ago
How is keeping track of what people read a "molehill"? Do we now presume libraries will not keep your reading habits and history private?
- kube-system 4y ago
  This article is about a picture posted on a snapchat story.
sudobash1 4y ago
Some other sources: There is more information in the a "Stanford Daily" article: https://stanforddaily.com/2023/01/22/protected-identity-harm-report-filed-as-screenshot-of-student-reading-mein-kampf-circulates/ https://stanforddaily.com/2023/01/22/protected-identity-harm... And an opinion article in the "Standford Review": https://stanfordreview.org/nazis-banned-books-we-shouldnt/ https://stanfordreview.org/nazis-banned-books-we-shouldnt/

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wilg 4y ago

Some rando on Twitter reposting an screenshot of an anonymous person claims the following: https://twitter.com/barrydeutsch/status/1618697230382399488 https://twitter.com/barrydeutsch/status/1618697230382399488 > This article hasn't framed the incident accurately at all. the incident was two theta girls posted a Snapchat story of them reading Mein Kampf as part of their costumes at a pregame and laughing, clearly in a joking way, not at all in a historical way. The joke was in poor taste which is why it got such a negative response (as it should). Obviously people can read Mein Kampf, but that's not what's contested here. I imagine this story is going to get stupider.

meany 4y ago
Stanford review story link. That confirms OP. https://stanforddaily.com/2023/01/22/protected-identity-harm-report-filed-as-screenshot-of-student-reading-mein-kampf-circulates/ https://stanforddaily.com/2023/01/22/protected-identity-harm...
prvc 4y ago
> laughing, clearly in a joking way, not at all in a historical way What should the penalty be for laughing in a non-"historical way"?
- kube-system 4y ago
  From our government? Nothing. From a private organization? Whatever their rules are, as long as they are within the law. It is exceedingly common for private organizations to have standards of behavior that are much more than required by law.
- dwaltrip 4y ago
  The book is a symbol for the immense suffering inflicted by the Nazi regime. I can sympathize with not wanting students brazenly laughing at that in front of a large audience. It’s not a good look - they aren’t representing the university well. That being said, I’m not sure what general rule I would want to set if I was in charge of this policy at a university. It’s certainly a thorny issue.

sequoia 4y ago

In cases like these, details and context are important, and unfortunately they are very scant here. Specifically, one may draw a distinction between someone reading Mein Kampf and posting a selfie on social media with the book (it's not clear whether a selfie was involved but social media posting was). There's no issue with reading mein kampf, but if it's being used as a prop on social media for the purpose of Jew-baiting, I can see how someone would take issue with this and/or consider it an offence against a school conduct guide. To take another example, I don't think there's any issue with someone learning or teaching how to tie a knot used to make a noose. But if someone throws a noose over a tree, poses in front of it & posts the picture to social media, that's a very different action. In the latter case, it would be dishonest to say they were censured "for tying knots," they would be censured for race baiting and making implied threats.

meany 4y ago
Stanford Review link supporting OP https://stanforddaily.com/2023/01/22/protected-identity-harm-report-filed-as-screenshot-of-student-reading-mein-kampf-circulates/ https://stanforddaily.com/2023/01/22/protected-identity-harm...
mc32 4y ago
I can imagine with things like this there come a day when sitting in a library someone spies upon another reader reading something they claim is triggering them. Let's say religious vs non religious people or ultra conservative vs ultra progressives. Or any high voltage topic with extreme opinions.
- sequoia 4y ago
  One can imagine many things, but that's not what happened here. Your comment is confirmation (to me) that FIRE's headline & article are misleading. The article is making you think of someone "minding their own business" reading a book and getting in trouble. In fact, we don't know whether any reading occurred. Someone's in trouble for (seeming too, details are unclear) using Mein Kampf as a prop in a social media post. I'm disappointed in FIRE for going the misleading clickbait route here, I generally support their work.

automatoney 4y ago

Here is a more journalistic piece on the incident: https://www.thecollegefix.com/stanford-student-reported-for-reading-hitlers-mein-kampf/ https://www.thecollegefix.com/stanford-student-reported-for-... and the school's newspaper's reporting on it (which is linked in both articles) https://stanforddaily.com/2023/01/22/protected-identity-harm-report-filed-as-screenshot-of-student-reading-mein-kampf-circulates/ https://stanforddaily.com/2023/01/22/protected-identity-harm...

Animats 4y ago

Stanford has campus rabbis now? Yes, they do. Not just a branch of Hillel or Chabad. For a secular university, Stanford seems to have acquired quite a religious establishment.[1] They have all the major brands represented.[2] There's even a atheist chaplain.[3] This looks less like theology and more like Stanford's administrative bloat. As for Mein Kampf,[4] it's useful to read it again today, along with a biography of Putin to understand where the Ukraine mess came from. There's an "our destiny is to rule the world" mindset. It's back. [1] https://orsl.stanford.edu/ https://orsl.stanford.edu/ [2] https://med.stanford.edu/hhp/about/people/professors-and-lecturers.html https://med.stanford.edu/hhp/about/people/professors-and-lec... [3] https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Stanford-gets-a-chaplain-for-atheists-4139991.php https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Stanford-gets-a-chaplain... [4] https://archive.org/details/mein-kampf-by-adolf-hitler-ralph-manheim-translation/page/2/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/mein-kampf-by-adolf-hitler-ralph...

mellosouls 4y ago

This could serve as a literature/news trivia style question for any pub quiz compilers out there: In which publication did an Office of Religious and Spiritual Affairs investigate a Protected Identity Harm Report after somebody read a book? A) The Handmaid's Tale B) 1984 C) Stanford Daily