8 ms·

Google is probably screwed without it. Even if ad-tech isn't exactly a bubble, I strongly believe it is overvalued even still. Furthermore, the product that ma

by jchw 4y ago

Google is probably screwed without it. Even if ad-tech isn't exactly a bubble, I strongly believe it is overvalued even still. Furthermore, the product that made their name is thoroughly lost. I dread Google Search today. If I found something on Google yesterday, I have no idea if I'll be able to locate it through the sea of blog SPAM and SEO garbage tomorrow. Google web search strongly favors big websites when sometimes the page you need is never going to be there. As an example, Google puts heavy weight on near-SPAM sites like Pinterest which produce almost no original content, and on abusive hosts like Fandom (formerly Wikia) who manages to beat out community wikis by replacing admins that try to migrate off and winning in SEO. I am not trying to suggest Duck Duck Go or Bing are actually better overall, but if I see a web search covered in results like that, I sometimes find that they do in fact give me somewhat better result rankings. The only thing I really have any strong affection for is YouTube, and the people and content that made the platform special are constantly unhappy with it's corporate direction, not to mention the utter lack of support, claiming and affirming in appeals stupid pointless crap like "you said a naughty word in the first ten seconds of the video" when anyone with working ears can easily verify they did not. And that's the tip of the iceberg. I think a lot of ventures, like GMail, only ever made sense as computers and bandwidth just kept getting dramatically cheaper. It's difficult to beat free. Well, what happens when those things stop getting cheaper, and GMail keeps getting more expensive to run?

footlose_3815 4y ago
Devil's advocate, lots of Google services are 100% benevolent. Like Google Open Fonts. Did you know most of the font licenses packaged with Windows, you're not even allowed to package them into a game?
- kmbfjr 4y ago
  There is nothing altruistic about Google. It is all about collecting as much metadata as possible to feed the ad tech money pump. At the very least, pulling from Google for fonts, which nearly everyone does, announces the page where it begins the process.
quitit 4y ago
You raise an excellent point about Googling. By the way sites like Pinterest, dominate Google results, a stranger would incorrectly believe that it is some kind of key "go to" website of the internet. Instead it's the reason why ordinary people need to learn negated search terms. -site:pinterest.com -walmart -amazon -alibaba
smallerfish 4y ago
Almost a meme at this point: > I am not trying to suggest Duck Duck Go or Bing are actually better overall Kagi is, however. Well worth putting your money where your mouth is and supporting them.
- randmeerkat 4y ago
  So, I googled Kagi, found their link… Not only is it required to create an account to use their service, they want a credit card to bill as well! Hard pass.
  - bluepoint 4y ago
    Are you sure about the credit card? I signed up without one. There is a free option.
  - edgyquant 4y ago
    Cool. Continue using Google then.
  - Karunamon 4y ago
    Yes, as a paid service who directly sells their primary product rather than a data mining, anti-privacy homunculus whose most famous product is merely a means to an end, an account and payment is required. This is strictly better than Google.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
      - Karunamon 4y ago
        Your goals are mutually exclusive.
    - randmeerkat 4y ago
      DuckDuckGo is 100% privacy focused, free, and doesn’t require an account or credit card to use.
honkler 4y ago
since you talked about adtech being a bubble, I'll hijack your post to recommend this book: https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374538651/subprimeattentioncrisis https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374538651/subprimeattenti...
paulcole 4y ago
You're ignoring mobile + local + timely searches which are incredibly common and very valuable. Google doesn't put "heavy weight" on Pinterest or "SPAM and SEO garbage" there. These SERPs are full of local and useful results and paid ads/placements. This is where Google's interests lie.
spijdar 4y ago
> The only thing I really have any strong affection for is YouTube, and the people and content that made the platform special are constantly unhappy with it's corporate direction, not to mention the utter lack of support, claiming and affirming in appeals stupid pointless crap like "you said a naughty word in the first ten seconds of the video" when anyone with working ears can easily verify they did not. This is mostly an aside, but it's worth putting into perspective that many of these complaints are related to Google's ads and automatic monetization through ads, as well as their content recommendation network/userbase. In other words, I think as Google's ad-revenue shrinks (or the bubble bursts), the Youtube ad policies will seem to become more and more draconian, but despite all the anger towards Youtube, the alternatives involve... no (automatic) monetization at all. I don't think a lot of people are really conscious of how a lot of modern Youtube (specifically the big content creators who have made careers out of Google's monetization options) are implicitly reliant on Google's ad-tech bubble. And most people are pretty derisive of Google's attempts at alternative monetization e.g. youtube premium. I fear when the bubble bursts (or just shrinks a lot), a lot of the high quality content people enjoy on youtube will burst or shrink with it.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  > the alternatives involve... no (automatic) monetization at all. This is 100% what it boils down to. Google is obviously not the only advertiser in town, but if the ad bubble pops, so does the free content economy on the internet. Some people will argue the internet would be better because of it, but the transition away from ad-supported viewership would decimate the web we know.
  - jchw 4y ago
    I'd argue the internet I liked most was decimated by the current free content economy, though. I'm not saying I disagree with you by any means; a lot of what we would lose would be a great shame. Only the strongest creators could probably find a way to stay alive, likely through more direct sponsorship (both Patreon and well, traditional direct sponsors. You already see this a ton on YouTube anyways.) I get that the internet will never be as scrappy and experimental as it once was, but the way monetization spread rewarded a lot of people who thrived off of essentially taking free stuff and monetizing it. I mean a lot. Think of "prominent" "content creators" and "influencers" like Fuck Jerry. In the process of doing this, I think all of the fun was milked out of everything. Today's internet feels like a giant strip mall. I really do wonder if this is the best middleground we can get. Of course, if ad-tech does turn out to be more or less a giant bubble and that bubble pops, we lose everything anyways, without any chance to transition, and all of the anguish was for naught. It feels like quite a gamble to keep hinging on this so strongly for the best content online, so I hope that the patronage model continues to grow.
_aavaa_ 4y ago
I agree, which is why manually blacklisting them became a necessity for me. I loved uBlocklist, and would recommend it for anyone not on Kagi. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ublacklist/pncfbmialoiaghdehhbnbhkkgmjanfhe https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ublacklist/pncfbmi...
Forgeties79 4y ago
> I have no idea if I'll be able to locate it through the sea of blog SPAM and SEO garbage tomorrow If I have to sift through one more useless AI-generated/copy-paste article where they spend half the damn thing explaining the most basic stuff and then still not answering my question (or giving a simple "yes/no"), I'm going to lose it. It's not even just technical answers. I have to basically type "...reddit" or some forum I like to get ANYTHING useful anymore. It's even just basic media questions. Example: "Is there an [IP sequel] being made?" First 20 results: "Is there an [IP sequel] being made? Read more to find out. First what is IP? IP was released in 2012. It was made by such and such starring such and such as they go on an adventure to do the thing..." 4 paragraphs later "There is no information on a sequel. Thanks for reading!" Yes I've learned to spot these as have most folks around here I imagine, but holy hell they will eat 2-3 pages of results sometimes! It's infuriating!
- telchior 4y ago
  This kind of problem isn't just because of search, it's also because of content creators. I believe what all content creators quickly learn is, on any given topic, the funnel is extremely wide on the most introductory knowledge and then becomes uselessly narrow as you drill into specific info. To use a specific example, the other day I was trying to learn more about programming shaders. There is an unending number of basic level tutorials: what is a shader? There are probably 500,000 people searching for that topic. But if I want to figure out a UV scrolling texture, I'm screwed, there's almost nothing. Because the audience for that is maybe 500 people. There's just no financial (or even reputational!) incentive for anyone to write an article / make a video on something requiring deeper expertise. There is stuff out there, of course, created by the tiny minority of passionate enthusiasts or dedicated professionals. Google is really searching for a needle in a very, very large haystack. And I think Google (and other search) has been more and more challenged by that over the years as the internet moved from a niche enthusiast place to a mass market place. Particularly when all the hay is spending massive amounts of effort on trying to pretend to be a needle. tl;dr I despise using Google (or DuckDuckGo) these days but I don't think all the blame should be assigned to the engines, they're actually facing a tough problem. (Not that you personally were saying that, but this is mainly a thread of hating on Google.)
lordnacho 4y ago
I use search for coding a lot, and lately I've noticed it's hard to find what I'm after. If I'm looking for some small thing like what an sftp command looks like, I don't want an SEO essay about why SSH is great and we should all use encryption. I just want the example line. This seems to be what ChatGPT can give me. It doesn't always work, but it also doesn't beat around the bush.
- quantified 4y ago
  Yet.
- Tagbert 4y ago
  Until ChatGPT starts giving you responses crafted from those SEO sites.
  - red-iron-pine 4y ago
    GPT is probably crafting those sites and like has been for a while now
- b212 4y ago
  That is odd, what exactly were you looking for? In my case Google results are still top notch. Sometimes I search for SO question every X years and I’m always able to find it easily.
  - lordnacho 4y ago
    Pretty much any minor thing like what does some syntax look like. I get both SEO essays and StackOverflow copycat sites.
- aejnsn 4y ago
  100%. I have found it sooo difficult to trace framework/library documentation down that 3-4 years ago was first few results. Something has ruined their algorithm.
- _jab 4y ago
dilippkumar 4y ago
> Furthermore, the product that made their name is thoroughly lost. I dread Google Search today. If I found something on Google yesterday, I have no idea if I'll be able to locate it through the sea of blog SPAM and SEO garbage tomorrow. I’ve had pretty good results with kagi.com YMMV.

by jchw 4y ago

footlose_3815 4y ago

Devil's advocate, lots of Google services are 100% benevolent. Like Google Open Fonts. Did you know most of the font licenses packaged with Windows, you're not even allowed to package them into a game?

kmbfjr 4y ago
There is nothing altruistic about Google. It is all about collecting as much metadata as possible to feed the ad tech money pump. At the very least, pulling from Google for fonts, which nearly everyone does, announces the page where it begins the process.

quitit 4y ago

You raise an excellent point about Googling. By the way sites like Pinterest, dominate Google results, a stranger would incorrectly believe that it is some kind of key "go to" website of the internet. Instead it's the reason why ordinary people need to learn negated search terms. -site:pinterest.com -walmart -amazon -alibaba

smallerfish 4y ago

Almost a meme at this point: > I am not trying to suggest Duck Duck Go or Bing are actually better overall Kagi is, however. Well worth putting your money where your mouth is and supporting them.

randmeerkat 4y ago
So, I googled Kagi, found their link… Not only is it required to create an account to use their service, they want a credit card to bill as well! Hard pass.
- bluepoint 4y ago
  Are you sure about the credit card? I signed up without one. There is a free option.
- edgyquant 4y ago
  Cool. Continue using Google then.
- Karunamon 4y ago
  Yes, as a paid service who directly sells their primary product rather than a data mining, anti-privacy homunculus whose most famous product is merely a means to an end, an account and payment is required. This is strictly better than Google.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
    - Karunamon 4y ago
      Your goals are mutually exclusive.
  - randmeerkat 4y ago
    DuckDuckGo is 100% privacy focused, free, and doesn’t require an account or credit card to use.

honkler 4y ago

since you talked about adtech being a bubble, I'll hijack your post to recommend this book: https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374538651/subprimeattentioncrisis https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374538651/subprimeattenti...

paulcole 4y ago

You're ignoring mobile + local + timely searches which are incredibly common and very valuable. Google doesn't put "heavy weight" on Pinterest or "SPAM and SEO garbage" there. These SERPs are full of local and useful results and paid ads/placements. This is where Google's interests lie.

spijdar 4y ago

> The only thing I really have any strong affection for is YouTube, and the people and content that made the platform special are constantly unhappy with it's corporate direction, not to mention the utter lack of support, claiming and affirming in appeals stupid pointless crap like "you said a naughty word in the first ten seconds of the video" when anyone with working ears can easily verify they did not. This is mostly an aside, but it's worth putting into perspective that many of these complaints are related to Google's ads and automatic monetization through ads, as well as their content recommendation network/userbase. In other words, I think as Google's ad-revenue shrinks (or the bubble bursts), the Youtube ad policies will seem to become more and more draconian, but despite all the anger towards Youtube, the alternatives involve... no (automatic) monetization at all. I don't think a lot of people are really conscious of how a lot of modern Youtube (specifically the big content creators who have made careers out of Google's monetization options) are implicitly reliant on Google's ad-tech bubble. And most people are pretty derisive of Google's attempts at alternative monetization e.g. youtube premium. I fear when the bubble bursts (or just shrinks a lot), a lot of the high quality content people enjoy on youtube will burst or shrink with it.

smoldesu 4y ago
> the alternatives involve... no (automatic) monetization at all. This is 100% what it boils down to. Google is obviously not the only advertiser in town, but if the ad bubble pops, so does the free content economy on the internet. Some people will argue the internet would be better because of it, but the transition away from ad-supported viewership would decimate the web we know.
- jchw 4y ago
  I'd argue the internet I liked most was decimated by the current free content economy, though. I'm not saying I disagree with you by any means; a lot of what we would lose would be a great shame. Only the strongest creators could probably find a way to stay alive, likely through more direct sponsorship (both Patreon and well, traditional direct sponsors. You already see this a ton on YouTube anyways.) I get that the internet will never be as scrappy and experimental as it once was, but the way monetization spread rewarded a lot of people who thrived off of essentially taking free stuff and monetizing it. I mean a lot. Think of "prominent" "content creators" and "influencers" like Fuck Jerry. In the process of doing this, I think all of the fun was milked out of everything. Today's internet feels like a giant strip mall. I really do wonder if this is the best middleground we can get. Of course, if ad-tech does turn out to be more or less a giant bubble and that bubble pops, we lose everything anyways, without any chance to transition, and all of the anguish was for naught. It feels like quite a gamble to keep hinging on this so strongly for the best content online, so I hope that the patronage model continues to grow.

_aavaa_ 4y ago

I agree, which is why manually blacklisting them became a necessity for me. I loved uBlocklist, and would recommend it for anyone not on Kagi. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ublacklist/pncfbmialoiaghdehhbnbhkkgmjanfhe https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ublacklist/pncfbmi...

Forgeties79 4y ago

> I have no idea if I'll be able to locate it through the sea of blog SPAM and SEO garbage tomorrow If I have to sift through one more useless AI-generated/copy-paste article where they spend half the damn thing explaining the most basic stuff and then still not answering my question (or giving a simple "yes/no"), I'm going to lose it. It's not even just technical answers. I have to basically type "...reddit" or some forum I like to get ANYTHING useful anymore. It's even just basic media questions. Example: "Is there an [IP sequel] being made?" First 20 results: "Is there an [IP sequel] being made? Read more to find out. First what is IP? IP was released in 2012. It was made by such and such starring such and such as they go on an adventure to do the thing..." 4 paragraphs later "There is no information on a sequel. Thanks for reading!" Yes I've learned to spot these as have most folks around here I imagine, but holy hell they will eat 2-3 pages of results sometimes! It's infuriating!

telchior 4y ago
This kind of problem isn't just because of search, it's also because of content creators. I believe what all content creators quickly learn is, on any given topic, the funnel is extremely wide on the most introductory knowledge and then becomes uselessly narrow as you drill into specific info. To use a specific example, the other day I was trying to learn more about programming shaders. There is an unending number of basic level tutorials: what is a shader? There are probably 500,000 people searching for that topic. But if I want to figure out a UV scrolling texture, I'm screwed, there's almost nothing. Because the audience for that is maybe 500 people. There's just no financial (or even reputational!) incentive for anyone to write an article / make a video on something requiring deeper expertise. There is stuff out there, of course, created by the tiny minority of passionate enthusiasts or dedicated professionals. Google is really searching for a needle in a very, very large haystack. And I think Google (and other search) has been more and more challenged by that over the years as the internet moved from a niche enthusiast place to a mass market place. Particularly when all the hay is spending massive amounts of effort on trying to pretend to be a needle. tl;dr I despise using Google (or DuckDuckGo) these days but I don't think all the blame should be assigned to the engines, they're actually facing a tough problem. (Not that you personally were saying that, but this is mainly a thread of hating on Google.)

lordnacho 4y ago

I use search for coding a lot, and lately I've noticed it's hard to find what I'm after. If I'm looking for some small thing like what an sftp command looks like, I don't want an SEO essay about why SSH is great and we should all use encryption. I just want the example line. This seems to be what ChatGPT can give me. It doesn't always work, but it also doesn't beat around the bush.

quantified 4y ago
Yet.
Tagbert 4y ago
Until ChatGPT starts giving you responses crafted from those SEO sites.
- red-iron-pine 4y ago
  GPT is probably crafting those sites and like has been for a while now
b212 4y ago
That is odd, what exactly were you looking for? In my case Google results are still top notch. Sometimes I search for SO question every X years and I’m always able to find it easily.
- lordnacho 4y ago
  Pretty much any minor thing like what does some syntax look like. I get both SEO essays and StackOverflow copycat sites.
aejnsn 4y ago
100%. I have found it sooo difficult to trace framework/library documentation down that 3-4 years ago was first few results. Something has ruined their algorithm.
_jab 4y ago

dilippkumar 4y ago

> Furthermore, the product that made their name is thoroughly lost. I dread Google Search today. If I found something on Google yesterday, I have no idea if I'll be able to locate it through the sea of blog SPAM and SEO garbage tomorrow. I’ve had pretty good results with kagi.com YMMV.