7 ms·
A fun experiment but LLM generated stories will never escape the uncanny valley, because they're not novel, they're remixes. I know the critique of that positio
by weeksie 4y ago
A fun experiment but LLM generated stories will never escape the uncanny valley, because they're not novel, they're remixes. I know the critique of that position is "but humans just remix the things they know from the world" but that is the same misunderstanding that those who thought truck driving jobs would be automated by 2018 made about that profession. i.e. The less you know about a field, the more likely you are to believe it will be easy to automate.
Art, in this case illustration and narrative, requires a coherent viewpoint. In literature this is often referred to as the authorial voice. Voice is special because of the uniqueness of the human life behind it, which I realize sounds a bit airy-fairy, but is very true once you start digging into what works and what doesn't. When you read something and wonder why it's so engaging when it's not _that_ much different than other very similar pieces, that's often what's at work.
It's also why some pieces really don't work for some people. The "a kid could draw that" critiques of various modernism styles come from this place.
I don't begrudge people experimenting with art through LLM generation, and perhaps it can be a great tool for scaffolding ideas, I grant that. However, I do worry about the deluge of poorly conceived LLM content that will make the good stuff harder to find. We had a glorious age where the gatekeepers had lost most of their power. With the flood of content about to be released, I'm afraid we'll find ourselves beholden to them once again.
- laurentlb 4y ago> they're not novel, they're remixes. I think it depends on how you use it. If you write a one-line prompt, you'll get a "generic" result. With more guidance, you can get something much more personal. For example, you could imagine a story and let ChatGPT pick the actual words. At the end, you can put an arbitrary amount of work to get a generated story. You can treat ChatGPT as a co-author who will help you do the parts you want (e.g. find ideas, find text structure, write the actual sentences). The end result depends on how much work you want to do yourself.
- jcims 4y agoThis is very achievable by layering it. Start by asking for a synopsis, then characters, then story arc, then outline, then chapters, then chapter outlines, then content. Each time seeding the prompt with the hierarchy of content above that level.
- xienze 4y ago> Voice is special because of the uniqueness of the human life behind it This IMO is a handwavy criticism of AI-generated content by people judging content who have the foreknowledge that the content was AI-generated. To put it another way, pretend it was a year (or more) ago and ChatGPT/Stable Diffusion were ~unknown. You stumble across this kids book. Be completely honest here: would your reaction be "there's no way a human created this book"?
- Agraillo 4y agoI suspect with AI we always will be in "this story (song, picture) is Ok" and never "is great" category. I recall the member of ABBA was asked whether they ever felt the song would be a hit. She (this was definitely either Agnetha or Anni-Frid) said that never except for "Dancing Queen". So the AI will be able to mimic ABBA-style, but it would struggle to create something like this song.
- atmosx 4y agoHm, really? I would have thought “the winner takes it all” had No1 hit all over it and I am not an ABBA fan.
- belval 4y agoI clicked on the link agreeing with you and came back disagreeing. Maybe I wouldn't have thought "an LLM made this", but the story is disjointed in a way that makes no sense for a children's book. The structure is all wrong. -> Hedgehog making bread -> Loves making bread -> One day bread stolen -> Butter everywhere -> Hedgehog sets out to find culprit -> Finds culprit -> Opens butter themed amusement park with culprit -> The End There is no overlapping theme or logic to the story. Children's book will have some form of gimmick and stick to it (young humans aren't all that bright) so you can have a baker hedgehog that encounters adversity (bread is gone) and maybe tie it in with a human culprit (bread thief, didn't say please or something), but the butter amusement park is out of place and uncanny.
- adamsmith143 4y ago
- idopmstuff 4y ago> A fun experiment but LLM generated stories will never escape the uncanny valley Never is a really, really long time. > Art, in this case illustration and narrative, requires a coherent viewpoint. Why can't an AI have a coherent viewpoint, especially in the context of a children's book, where that viewpoint need only be incredibly simple? "John has lost his <insert item>, feels sad about that, and wants to get it back" is a coherent viewpoint, and certainly something AI can (if not now, at some point in the future) write a coherent story about. > Voice is special because of the uniqueness of the human life behind it, which I realize sounds a bit airy-fairy, but is very true once you start digging into what works and what doesn't. So what works and what doesn't? You're saying all of this at a high level and giving a timeline of forever on your prediction, but then you say it's true if you dig in without doing that. > It's also why some pieces really don't work for some people. The "a kid could draw that" critiques of various modernism styles come from this place. The thing about modernism is that it requires outside context to understand. It is a movement in response to art movements that preceded it, and the fact that its style uses simplistic shapes and lines is because of what it's a response to. You need to understand that history to appreciate why it is what it is. In that sense, you're absolutely right - a child can't produce modern art, because even if it looks visually similar to existing art, it lacks that context. The problem with that argument is that it's totally irrelevant to the topic at hand - children's books. They do not need history or context - those things serve no purpose because, for obvious reasons, they would be lost on the audience. All you have to hit is the superficial level - if you book looks and reads like a great children's book, it's a great children's book! On a somewhat related note, I think AI art will eventually be seen as a movement somewhat akin to modernism. In response to the fact that art has become increasingly elite and insular (the whole fact that a modern painting can't be fully appreciated just by looking at the painting - you must know art history, which most people don't have the time or inclination to learn), people will be inclined to appreciate the flood of beautiful but democratized art that can be made by anyone. Just as the generation of artists before modernism thought it was awful, so will the current generation of artists about AI art. I'm a believe that art should be about aesthetics, not history, and AI art is certainly great for that.
- wpietri 4y ago> Never is a really, really long time. True but irrelevant. If we want to get to decent art, we'll need something well beyond an LLM. Humans generate stories using introspection. Every writer is their own first reader. They rapidly and iteratively try out story elements to create experiences and feelings. They then find the right words, again seeking out particular feelings. After iterating on the words for a while, they then have others read the words: partners, friends, eventually an editor. Those people all experience feelings, which get observed and sometimes articulated to the writer, driving further revisions. LLMs can create story-shaped things. They can write glib, imitative dreck. But to write a new, compelling book, they need to be able to iterate against high-quality simulations of reader emotions. That may be something that we can create in the lab, but if we do, it won't be called an LLM.
- adamsmith143 4y ago[flagged]
- rcme 4y agoYea, I love how people just throw out statements like "they're not novel, they're remixes" with absolutely zero justification. What a complex AI like ChatGPT is and isn't is a very interesting conversation. But I'm not sure people realize just how much their personal bias factors in to the conversation. So often people offer something as obvious fact which has no factual basis.
- boca_honey 4y agoThis is not Reddit or Twitter. Think about what you want to say before posting. Meme responses are usually a sign that you don't really know what you're talking about. From HN FAQ: > Avoid generic tangents. Omit internet tropes. Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something. - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- adamsmith143 4y agoThe OP comment can also be seen as an internet trope displaying poor understanding of the topic. You can't teach someone who is unwilling to learn.
- sporkland 4y ago> A fun experiment but LLM generated stories will never escape the uncanny valley, because they're not novel, they're remixes. I know the critique of that position is "but humans just remix the things they know from the world" but that is the same misunderstanding that those who thought truck driving jobs would be automated by 2018 made about that profession. i.e. The less you know about a field, the more likely you are to believe it will be easy to automate. I'm curious how many modern children's books you've read. There are a ton of very shitty... Remixes with poor cheap art. Especially books for cities and holidays. I could see this eating into that
- Wistar 4y agoWhat are “books for cities?”
- mariodiana 4y agoThis piece did not seem to be written by a human. The writing style would arguably escape notice, though it was an even a little too twee for a children's book. But the plot was so far out there that it's hard to argue that it seems natural. I think even most children, after having experience with children's books, would find something odd about the sequence of events.
- duderific 4y ago> I could see this eating into that Perhaps, if the cover was engaging enough. However this seems like the kind of story that my child (4 1/2) might read once and then never pick up again. She'd be like "ew, who wants butter all over their kitchen?"
- onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago> A fun experiment but LLM generated stories will never escape the uncanny valley, because they're not novel, they're remixes. Much of children's best-selling fiction is extremely derivative. The way the market works, it's nearly impossible to get things published that aren't extremely derivative. To the extent that, I think this might actually be a good place to start - with auto-generated derivative garbage - and then fix the "problems" with the plot through editing. My first thoughts on this story were pretty negative. The plot is almost incoherent. There's not much conflict. But it does have a little bit of a mystery, and it does get resolved. Although much of it came from out-of-nowhere (The Theme Park), Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and many other extremely popular children's books are literary nonsense. The illustration definitely does not fit together well, and is not what you'd expect to get from a book you paid $20 for. But, overall, it's really not bad. I could see a huge market for parents wanting custom books like this generated for their kids about all their zany interests. If your kids loves baking & cute animals & mystery - they'd probably love this story. Maybe it costs $1 or $2 - it's definitely not a big business - it's probably not going to "disrupt" the market (because it's so entrenched I don't even think disruption is possible). If this is too much literary nonsense, I'd love to see what it could do if you asked for the same story "In the style of AA Milne" or Robert Lewis Stevenson or James Mathew Barrie or Beatrix Potter. I can definitely see a near future where almost every parent does this for their kid once or twice a year.
- flanbiscuit 4y agoThe true measure is will a very young child notice and/or care. My guess is they won't and they'll like the story. Only the adults reading it will notice something off/weird/"uncanny" about it. But of course, it's the adults buying/distributing these books so you still need to "sell" it to them first.
- yamtaddle 4y agoKids happily get sucked into Minecraft video narrative "series" with totally insane plots that make no sense and are basically gibberish even line-to-line, and into dirt-cheap Asian and Eastern European CG cartoon imports on Netflix that are barely better. I'm 100% sure a mostly-AI creative process could produce something higher quality than those... um, genres, I guess, today. (seriously, there's some so-cheap-I'm-not-sure-why-they-bothered kids' cartoons on Netflix, if you look for them—you're on the right track if it looks like it was rendered with mid-grade 2005 desktop 3D rendering tech using stock models and stock scenes with way-too-little decoration or clutter, despite in-fact dating no earlier than 2015. A lot of them have whole scenes that are basically just the characters talking in circles. The plots are always extremely straightforward and about 1/5 as much plot as they should need to fill the time, even by very generous reckoning. Lots of interpersonal conflict that amounts to nothing, existing just so they can have two characters have some conflict in a scene to absolutely no thematic-, message-, characterization-, or plot-related end. Most turn out to have been originally produced in India or Romania or something, if you start digging. It's crazy. But young kids will watch these.)
- oytis 4y agoYeah, probably not replacing human-generated fiction immediately, but it's higher quality than all of my extempore bedtime stories I must admit.
- gfodor 4y agoIt feels like an LLM should easily be able to handle this problem. Some of these kinds of authoritative voices are almost certainly represented in its latent space.
- leesec 4y ago>A fun experiment but LLM generated stories will never escape the uncanny valley, because they're not novel, they're remixes. I don't know how we get this myth to stop perpetuating but it does not ring true to me at all. LLM's has proven to have "novelty" many times now.
- now__what 4y agoI'd love to read a "novel" AI story; sounds very interesting. Can you link an example or two?
- thedorkknight 4y agoAnecdotally I've pushed chatGPT pretty hard to give me novel stuff and have found it really hard to do. Sometimes it even gets "grumpy" at me about pushing it.
- leesec 4y agoChatGPT is specifically trained to play inside the lines, have you tried the same with GPT3?
- cameroncooper 4y agoYou say it's not novel, but I loved the twist where they decided to open a theme park.
- now__what 4y agoI've been using AI image generators to help me brainstorm compositions/colors/themes for traditional artworks. Your note about lack of "coherent viewpoint" very much rings true for AI-generated visual arts. The AI will get many patterns/images "right" in a given piece but has no sense of how far to take those patterns or how different components attach or relate to each other. Even so, it's a fun and interesting tool to use alongside traditional media, so I'm excited to see it improve.
- daavidhauser 4y agoone thing i learned is to mever say never when it comes to LLMs
- kenjackson 4y ago> A fun experiment but LLM generated stories will never escape the uncanny valley, because they're not novel, they're remixes Kid's books aren't intended to be novel. It's not like a four year old is going to say, "Man, this is a retread of Hamlet!" They are often re-tellings packaged up in a new way to appeal to kids in the current generation. Sometimes as simple as removing sexist, classist, and/or racist elements.
- eyalbukchin 4y agoIt's initially the parent who'll pick the book though (or the critic? the people who decide what to put in the front window of the bookstore? probably not the four year old though), so the uncanniness could come into play.
- whateveracct 4y agoAI art replacing real art would effectively be human culture imploding in on itself.
- smrtinsert 4y ago> because they're not novel, they're remixes There's only so many words in the english language. If I ask ChatGPT to write me a story about how a I turn into a super hero tomato that saves the world against the villainy of pasta, that's a novel story I'm pretty sure.
- tomp 4y agoWait until you see the movie Avatar.